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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: barney on February 24, 2009, 05:18:05 PM
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Hello everybody, I have a small question. Has anybody used an Amiga 3000 with an LCD monitor? How does it work compared with a CRT? Which one looks crisper? Thanks.
Barney
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IMO, If you have a graphics card I would use a LCD if not I would use a CRT.
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Hi,
Excuse me if I make some mis-statements here as I am learning this issue myself :-)
I find that a CRT looks better on my PIV, since it seems to handle different resolutions better than a LCD which, I believe, is best only at it native resolution.
Tim
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I'm sorry but using PIV it's better on LCD rather on CRT.
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I'm sure you guys are right, but it has been my experience that (out of the box) CRT's look sharper and more natural than LCD's, whether you're using native modes, video cards or not. Having said that, I have never tweaked the monitor settings to death either. I suspect one would have to play with the pixel clock? or other settings in order to get a decent image out of LCD and an Amiga.
And then there is the widescreen aspect, which really sucks with Amiga. I'm about to purchase a 4:3 LCD for my Amiga, but am already anticipating disappointment compared to my trusty CRT.
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Thanks for the replies. What does PIV stand for? Just curious.
Barney
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LCD is crisper, *if* running at the panel's native resolution. For 1024x768 (about what Amiga graphic cards like the PIV/CV/CV3D can handle and still remain somewhat snappy), you would need a 15" LCD. I suppose you could squeeze a 1280x1024 resolution WB, and use a 17" or 19" LCD.
CRT offers much better resolution scaling, which is why I prefer to use them with the classics. LCD smearing is also much worse at non-native resolution, another reason I like CRTs for gaming/watching demos on the classics. Properly set up, a good aperture grille CRT (Eizo, Lacie, etc) can have an absolutely STUNNING picture. Problem is, you need to find a good one, then potentially spend hours adjusting it to perfection. :/ Note that any screen much larger than 17" will make your games look blocky, also CRT flicker is more noticeable on larger screens.
A lot of this is subjective, best thing is to try both and let your eyes decide.
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I've used my A3000 with an Samsung 19" LCD until my wife grabbed it for her Mac mini. I'm using an old EMachine monitor at the moment. I much prefer the LCD myself.
A point I don't think I've seen in the discussion, this is about the A3000 which has standard VGA output. I've actually been working on mine this week...
Bob
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barney wrote:
Thanks for the replies. What does PIV stand for? Just curious.
Barney
PIV = Post Indicator Valve — a type of valve used for underground fire sprinkler shutoff
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Tension wrote:
PIV = Post Indicator Valve — a type of valve used for underground fire sprinkler shutoff
Surprisingly, the above statement is actually true.
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I have use a native Commodore CRT and a LCD monitor with a stock A3000 unit. Using only the VGA out on the A 3000.
The LCD is WAY better and doesn't produce the flicker that the CRT did. I though I would have epilictic fits if i had to go through that for any length of time. The down side is the resolution is not good enough for wall paper pictures, but it is clean and sharp for a solid background.
(http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc341/quarkx/HPIM4045.jpg)
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CRT looks better, since no sensible LCD will match your Amigas resolution, resulting in fuzzy rescaling. The only reason to use an LCD on an Amiga is space reasons.
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Iggy,
I'd agree with you on OTHER Amigas, but this is about the A3000. It's VGA output displays everything quite nicely on an LCD. The A3000 doesn't suffer in quality on VGA.
Bob
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beller wrote:
Iggy,
I'd agree with you on OTHER Amigas, but this is about the A3000. It's VGA output displays everything quite nicely on an LCD. The A3000 doesn't suffer in quality on VGA.
Bob
You still have the scaling issues, and potentially worse ghosting at non-native resolution/frequency (many LCD don't handle 50Hz correctly, even if they display it - another problem).
It doesn't bother some people, it all depends on what you notice and how fussy you are. Most people would think a new LCD looks better than a generic POS 15" CRT, or their old 1084... but with a good CRT there's absolutely no comparison IMHO.
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This is starting to remind me of a discussion on tube (valves for the English) stereo amps vs solid state.
It truly is a personal choice...
Bob
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-D- wrote:
LCD is crisper, *if* running at the panel's native resolution. For 1024x768 (about what Amiga graphic cards like the PIV/CV/CV3D can handle and still remain somewhat snappy), you would need a 15" LCD. I suppose you could squeeze a 1280x1024 resolution WB, and use a 17" or 19" LCD.
CRT offers much better resolution scaling, which is why I prefer to use them with the classics. LCD smearing is also much worse at non-native resolution, another reason I like CRTs for gaming/watching demos on the classics. Properly set up, a good aperture grille CRT (Eizo, Lacie, etc) can have an absolutely STUNNING picture. Problem is, you need to find a good one, then potentially spend hours adjusting it to perfection. :/ Note that any screen much larger than 17" will make your games look blocky, also CRT flicker is more noticeable on larger screens.
A lot of this is subjective, best thing is to try both and let your eyes decide.
I just started using a 6 to 8 year old 19-inch LG 955e CRT again, that I had previously given to my Son to use with the AMD 64bit PC computer we had built for him a few years ago.
I had bought it new to replace my 17-inch MicroVitech Amiga branded multi-sync monitor that had died after a short two years of use (poor quality???) Even though the 17-inch Amiga monitor was huge for it's display size and the 19-inch LG is even bigger and takes up an enormous amount of desk space, both of them had/have beautiful displays when used with an Amiga. The LG cannot do the 15kHz modes like the Amiga monitor could, but with a flicker fixer, or graphics card, such as the PicassoII that I first used it with, it looks great. It only shows a maximum allowable resolution of 1024x768 from my new/used G4 MacMini, which surprised me as I thought it should go higher, but that is the same resolution I used most often when I had it hooked to my A4000 with the PicassoII card before giving it to my Son for the last 4 or so years. I can't wait to test it with my A4000T and my pre-ordered Indivision scan-doubler/flicker fixer when it arrives.
I think I would have agree and say that for old low resolution Amiga games, 15-inch to 19-inch CRT monitors would be the best choice for a display, even when a scan-doubler/flicker fixer is used.
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May I ask how you made it work?
I just bought an A3000 (desktop), just like yours and I want to use an Acer L1716 monitor that I have sitting around my desk.
I hooked it up but I get no image. Just playing around, I connected my Shinco HDTV which has a VGA out connection and It worked, but the apps bar was kind of fuzzy.
Thanks.
I have use a native Commodore CRT and a LCD monitor with a stock A3000 unit. Using only the VGA out on the A 3000.
The LCD is WAY better and doesn't produce the flicker that the CRT did. I though I would have epilictic fits if i had to go through that for any length of time. The down side is the resolution is not good enough for wall paper pictures, but it is clean and sharp for a solid background.
(http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc341/quarkx/HPIM4045.jpg)
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May I ask how you made it work?
I just bought an A3000 (desktop), just like yours and I want to use an Acer L1716 monitor that I have sitting around my desk.
I hooked it up but I get no image. Just playing around, I connected my Shinco HDTV which has a VGA out connection and It worked, but the apps bar was kind of fuzzy.
Thanks.
I've got my A3000 hooked up to an Acer AL1916W and it worked without having to make any special changes. I was going to recommend that you ensure your Amber is enabled, but it seems that it is if you can get it to work on your TV.
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I've got my A3000 hooked up to an Acer AL1916W and it worked without having to make any special changes. I was going to recommend that you ensure your Amber is enabled, but it seems that it is if you can get it to work on your TV.
My HDTV has a VGA connection, so I thought the Acer L1716 would work just fine, but it wasn't the case. Where do I go to ensure that my Amber is enabled; sorry but I am totally rusted and rediscovering the Amiga environment again. Thanks.
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My HDTV has a VGA connection, so I thought the Acer L1716 would work just fine, but it wasn't the case. Where do I go to ensure that my Amber is enabled; sorry but I am totally rusted and rediscovering the Amiga environment again. Thanks.
Did you flick the flicker-fixer/scan-doubler switch on the back of the A3000 to make sure it is enabled?
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My HDTV has a VGA connection, so I thought the Acer L1716 would work just fine, but it wasn't the case. Where do I go to ensure that my Amber is enabled; sorry but I am totally rusted and rediscovering the Amiga environment again. Thanks.
There is a toggle switch on the back, next to the VGA port. I believe there is also a trim pot there as well to help clean up the display.
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I'm sure you guys are right, but it has been my experience that (out of the box) CRT's look sharper and more natural than LCD's, whether you're using native modes, video cards or not. Having said that, I have never tweaked the monitor settings to death either. I suspect one would have to play with the pixel clock? or other settings in order to get a decent image out of LCD and an Amiga.
And then there is the widescreen aspect, which really sucks with Amiga. I'm about to purchase a 4:3 LCD for my Amiga, but am already anticipating disappointment compared to my trusty CRT.
First, good thread. I agree with you save2600, the CRTs have much better contrast and color reproduction than LCD. Just look at a web site like tomshardware or Anandtech and one can see the poor color and contract offered by today's monitors.
That said these mass produced things are cheap, $100-130 buys a 2 million pixel monitor.
Anyone have experience getting picasso96, GCX, or native (ECS,AGA) with working wide screen formats, either (854x480, 1280x720, 1366x768, or 1920x1080)? I have seen LCD picasso96 monitor configs and wide screen native drivers out there. Has anyone used them? what are your experiences?
Thanks for the replies. What does PIV stand for? Just curious.
Barney
PIV = Picasso IV
CV64 = Cybervision 64
CD643d = Cybervision 64/3d (not the same as CV64)
PII = Picasso II
PII+ = Picasso II+
These five card make up some of the more common RTG cards out there.
There are more including A2410, GVP Spectrum, Merlin, etc. look at the big book of amiga hardware or amiga hardware database.
Other non zorro RTG cards include CyberVision PPC and BlizzardVision PPC which connect to the cyberstorm ppc and blizzard PPC cards.
Also there are several PCI busboards out there that can handle voodoo 3 (sometimes 4 and 5) S3 virge (dx), and radeon 9200 (9250) PCI based chipsets.
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@WeiXing3D
A little off topic. I like your ultraman avatar.
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Hello,
I just bought a used A3000 030/25 off ebay last month. I'm currently using a Commodore 2002 monitor for video. Unless I look for an older LCD monitor, I'll need to find a newer LCD monitor to save space and get better video. Are most newer LCD monitors multi-sync capable or should I look for a monitor based on running 15 - 60 Hz for a good picture? Hope this makes sense. I've owned A500 (2) and a A2000 w/ 030 and always used CBM monitors.
Thanks,
Jim
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Hello,
I just bought a used A3000 030/25 off ebay last month. I'm currently using a Commodore 2002 monitor for video. Unless I look for an older LCD monitor, I'll need to find a newer LCD monitor to save space and get better video. Are most newer LCD monitors multi-sync capable or should I look for a monitor based on running 15 - 60 Hz for a good picture? Hope this makes sense. I've owned A500 (2) and a A2000 w/ 030 and always used CBM monitors.
Thanks,
Jim
A3000 outputs 31KHz video from it's 15-pin connector. In other words, all screenmodes are automatically scan-doubled. In theory, any modern monitor should work on it. You may look on the forums for specific recommendations, once you pick out a model.
I know some A3000's can be "a little bit flaky". Another option is an Indivision ECS, which can be bought new for under $100 USD and which would provide a more stable VGA-style output, with support for some additional screenmodes (like 800x600x16 color). I use them on my A500 and A2000 and have had no issues with any LCD monitor, TV, or digital projector I've connected them to.
IMHO people kvetching about "ghosting" or "motion blur" on LCD monitors shouldn't be using cheap junk. Get something like an "UltraBrite" monitor, or something with a fast refresh rate, and you won't have any problems. :D
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I was actually told not to use an LCD on a big box Amiga with RTG, cause it would short/blow a circuit on the RTG???
So I'm considering digging up my old bulky 17" CRT for the A3000 that will arrive here soon.
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I was actually told not to use an LCD on a big box Amiga with RTG, cause it would short/blow a circuit on the RTG???
That's nonsense. Where did you hear that?
EDIT: Well, turns out it's not complete nonsense... (see below)
So I'm considering digging up my old bulky 17" CRT for the A3000 that will arrive here soon.
I much prefer CRTs to LCDs for Amigas because CRT resolutions are so much more flexible. That's important for an Amiga because you'll probably be working in a bunch of different screen resolutions. On a Mac/PC, you set your screenmode to match the native resolution of the LCD and probably never change it, and that's fine. But using a non-native screenmode on an LCD (usually) results in badly upscaled images or, worse, the edges of the screen getting cut off.
That said, LCDs have the advantage of being smaller and available. Make sure you find one that supports a 50Hz refresh rate - you'll need that if you want to do anything in PAL (games, some productivity software). Most usually only support a minimum of 56Hz or 60Hz, so look at the specs carefully before buying.
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I was actually told not to use an LCD on a big box Amiga with RTG, cause it would short/blow a circuit on the RTG???
That is actually true, but only if you have a Picasso II video card. I had two of them and snipped the resistor out on both, before plugging them in. Otherwise you'll get this:
(http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/Zardoz1377c/DSC00072.jpg)
There's a bunch of threads about it, but here's one I just googled up real quick:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=51133
Again, it's only this specific card, when used with modern LCD monitors. It's a generational thing. That resistor is going to a pin that performed a completely different function back in the era when those video cards were released. It should not be any issue with your A3000 (unless you have a PII video card, obviously). :lol:
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Yep, I have a PII that looks identical to Mike's.
Back to the topic, large screen LCD/LED's look great with Amiga's, and if you want to use 15K output, a slightly older Dell ST2420 or similar looks great and can handle 1920 X 1080 of PCI graphic cards in a Mediator.
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Has anybody used an Amiga 3000 with an LCD monitor? How does it work compared with a CRT? Which one looks crisper?
I use an old Sony SDM-551B LCD multiscan "gaming" monitor with my A3000. It does well, though the brightness could be brighter. Also the last row or two at the bottom of the screen is not visible.
Even with adjusting the screen,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
July 18-19 Commodore Vegas Expo v11 -
http://www.portcommodore.com/commvex
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OK, so I should be fine hooking up a LCD to a Phase 5 CyberVision 64 (not 3D) then?
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Yes
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OK, so I should be fine hooking up a LCD to a Phase 5 CyberVision 64 (not 3D) then?
CyberVision 64 = S3 Trio 64. Why buy CV64 today, I don't understand?
PCI bridge + S3 card = less expensive with the same quality.
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CyberVision 64 = S3 Trio 64. Why buy CV64 today, I don't understand?
PCI bridge + S3 card = less expensive with the same quality.
Because maybe he already has a CV64? Wants to keep it original? Who knows, I give up on asking questions like that when I wonder why people would rather use a dinky, eye-straining 1084 monitor instead of buying an Indivision and using a modern display, LOL. :lol:
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If we start asking questions like these we can all ask ourselves the same question... why are we here on this site in the first place, dedicated to a totally irrelevant platform.... :P
I just bought a A3000 that comes with a CV64 (still on its way). And I have a modern 27" LCD. So there's the reason for my question. I'd rather not cram another bulky CRT on my desk :)
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I was actually told not to use an LCD on a big box Amiga with RTG, cause it would short/blow a circuit on the RTG???
Dont know where you heard that its nonsense. I had an A3000 hooked to lcd for years.
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That is actually true, but only if you have a Picasso II video card. I had two of them and snipped the resistor out on both, before plugging them in. Otherwise you'll get this:
There's a bunch of threads about it, but here's one I just googled up real quick:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=51133
Again, it's only this specific card, when used with modern LCD monitors. It's a generational thing. That resistor is going to a pin that performed a completely different function back in the era when those video cards were released. It should not be any issue with your A3000 (unless you have a PII video card, obviously). :lol:
Bloody hell! I had no idea. Thanks for the warning. Could one also snap the affected pin out of the VGA cable connector? Or does it actually perform a function?
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Bloody hell! I had no idea. Thanks for the warning.
OK, so you got that part....., the resistor blows on a Picasso II, right?
Could one also snap the affected pin out of the VGA cable connector?
Ummm, yeah! Hellllllloooooooo? C'mon Matt... don't hand us that Knockworst - you know what continuity is!
Or does it actually perform a function?
Only to blow a resistor on a Picasso II! :lol: OK... "Or does it actually perform a function" is kinda fair... but, if you're asking what "Other" function, besides the blow out, on any other Miggy... well then.... beats me. :hammer:
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If we start asking questions like these we can all ask ourselves the same question... why are we here on this site in the first place, dedicated to a totally irrelevant platform.... :P
I just bought a A3000 that comes with a CV64 (still on its way). And I have a modern 27" LCD. So there's the reason for my question. I'd rather not cram another bulky CRT on my desk :)
You dont need a crt bro. You will love the lcd. Its only for hard core geeks and gamers that will notice the diff.
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I prefer the LCD on my 3k. Use it for the chipset and cv64, looks great and easy on the eyes.
I use a 27" LG IPS, got a great deal at best buy and could be happier.