Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: jiffydos on February 09, 2009, 03:27:13 PM
-
So, even with PPC boards going for so much money, the plane old blizzard 68K boards are going for almost as much. Why hasn't anyone created a new 68K board, even just exact copies of the old ones?
-
Price and availability of MC68060RC50 chips and edge connectors.
Freescale do not make the MC68060RC50 chips anymore and try to encourage people to use a Coldfire in a new design. One of the ways they have encouraged people is to raise the RRP to $373.29 well beyond the price of anything other than Military apps.
The tooling costs alone for the edge connectors in RoHS plastic would be several thousand dollars before you have even made one and then you'd probably have an MOQ (Minimum order Quantity) of about 1000 units.
You'd have to make at least 500 units to break even. When was the last time you saw 500 MC68060RC50 chips for sale?
Add to that the demand. With lots of people already owning an 060 board the total number of people wanting one is much smaller than say for 24-bit Scan doublers or USB controllers.
-
Plus the fact that no-one will sell the rights/code needed to clone existing accelerators...you would have to start from scratch designing a new type..costing a pretty packet in this day and age and as Alex says..there would not be enough sales to warrant it.
-
I was in a similar boat lamenting over the lack of CPU cards. Then I discovered UAE and never looked back. I was what you would consider a power user with a couple of Video Toaster Flyer A4000 T's.
Using commodity PCs' With multi-ghz CPU's and gobs of ram, you get a super Amiga with a spending spree $400 Wal Mart PC.
That's the price they're asking for modestly expanded A4000 or A3000 with graphics cards and other amenities on Ebay in the USA. Pretty Crazy... I paid $650 for an A4000 030... in 1995!
Happy with my A1200 and 030/50 as it's used for games and tinkering.
If I want to do modern things like play MP3's etc. I'll use UAE, a Mac or a PC.
A true fully 68k compatible 2ghz Amiga would be great though.
-
If UAE wasnt so flakey then I'd do that but IMO it is still a bit poop, especially in JIT modes.
Designing the 680x0 to SDRAM logic would not be that hard, especially as Rodolphe has done it recently for the CT060 for Atari Falcon. There are some timing diagrams and some bus wave form captures to look at. Probably get it done in a few days.
Considering how much hard work that Oliver Hannaford-Day put in a few years ago, coupled with the investigation work being done over at EAB I would imagine you could get a lot of information about the technical pitfalls to making an accelerator before you start.
-
As far as I can tell, new 68k boards are being produced, and they can run faster than the A500. You have MiniMig and C-One.
-
060's can be got second hand for a relatively cheap price. At least for now. I even remember some old Mac 68k cards had a recicled 68k on them.
-
Belial6 wrote:
As far as I can tell, new 68k boards are being produced, and they can run faster than the A500. You have MiniMig and C-One.
Neither are that fast compared to a bog standard 1230.
Neither support the 020+ instruction set and so are of limited use with "modern" Amiga software designed for accelerators.
Neither have an FPU (not that there is much Amiga software that uses one).
A C-One plus MiniMig FPGA expansion cost a lot more than most second hand Amiga 060 accelerators.
Jose wrote:
060's can be got second hand for a relatively cheap price. At least for now. I even remember some old Mac 68k cards had a recicled 68k on them.
In ones and twos? Yes.
In 100's? No!
-
If a single developer can create Minimig I am sure someone could make a new 68k board. Dont listen to all the negative comments.
-
You can argue that they are not 'good enough' accelerators, but that doesn't change the fact that they are A500s that can be boosted above the standard speed. You have to start somewhere. No doubt that as improvements happen, and new FPGAs come out, speed will increase, and someone will add 020 instructions, and the fact that they cost more doesn't change the fact that they are being produced.
So, maybe the original question should be refined to... Why no 68k boards that are faster and cheaper than used ones? Personally, if I had the know how to make a new accelerator board today, I wouldn't bother. Hardware wise, Dennis and the other MiniMig developers have freed us from AInc. and 20 year old hardware. That is the direction I expect to see push us past current Amiga speeds.
Now, if we could just get AmigaOS/Workbench/Kickstart replaced with an opens source version, the reigns would be off and we could run.
-
In the book "On the Edge: the Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore" by Brian Bagnall, he writes that Atari didn't want Jay Miner to design a computer around the MC68000 processor since it cost $150 per unit, the management couldn't envision that it would become cheaper.
That's why they founded HiToro to build a computer for tomorrow. As Jay Miner was sure that both the MC68000 and RAM would become cheaper.
For the retro scene, I'm sure this will be the case too. FPGAs will become cheaper. So the MiniMig that Dennis designed will see it's FGPA drop in price. So too if someone made a 020 based FPGA accellerator for the A500.
Now, if someone sufficiently skilled has the time and motivation to pull it of... now that's a completely different matter...
-
Belial6 wrote:
You can argue that they are not 'good enough' accelerators, but that doesn't change the fact that they are A500s that can be boosted above the standard speed. You have to start somewhere. No doubt that as improvements happen, and new FPGAs come out, speed will increase, and someone will add 020 instructions, and the fact that they cost more doesn't change the fact that they are being produced.
So, maybe the original question should be refined to... Why no 68k boards that are faster and cheaper than used ones? Personally, if I had the know how to make a new accelerator board today, I wouldn't bother. Hardware wise, Dennis and the other MiniMig developers have freed us from AInc. and 20 year old hardware. That is the direction I expect to see push us past current Amiga speeds.
Exactly. The Minimig and the C-One are new hardware, even if they do cost more than a dirty, 2nd hand A1200.
While we don't have a 68020 or better, the Minimig's 28MHz 68000 adds a bit of oomph when playing Gunship or Wing Commander. The C-One is also the prototype for the Clone-A so another offering is in the wings (when it's ready).
Now, if we could just get AmigaOS/Workbench/Kickstart replaced with an opens source version, the reigns would be off and we could run.
Freeing Kickstart from Amiga Inc, or at least having them sell Kickstart images on their online shop would be nice. Copies of Workbench can still be bought "new" or copied from old Amigas for those who need them.
The Minimig v1.1 is now in a state to be manufactured in bulk for Christmas as a retrogaming beauty. Why Amiga Inc don't put together a package:
Minimig v1.1 with latest PIC flash & PSU
Screwed to the bottom of a PS2 PC Keyboard
PS2 Mouse
SD Card pre-loaded with core and Kickstart 1.3
a selection of pre-loaded ADF games (and more to buy and download from their shop)
and
Jakub's ARM board with:
SD Card pre-loaded with with core, Kickstart 3.1 and Workbench 3.1 (plus a configured WHDload)
Well, that's what I would do if I had a serious interest in running a company and making some money.
-
Some of us like the fact we can still use 20 year old hardware..and the mere fact they can be accelerated way beyond their original abilities is also one of the attractions, 20 years ago no one would have dreamed they would be capable of running PPC speeds.
If they developed those then more modern accelerators could be too...and i would just love to point out to people Hey...my 20 year old miggy is doing ok in the modern world of computing.
This is one of the many reasons people still ask why and when if possible will someone develop new accelerators...but we all know now that will never happen.
-
cv643d wrote:
If a single developer can create Minimig I am sure someone could make a new 68k board.
MiniMig was created for fun. Not for profit and originally not for others. Dennis spent a lot of his own money which he never got back.
When MiniMig went on sale it was unique, new. It had a much wider appeal than a new 68k board, potentially the entire Amiga retro community. It was a better investment.
Belial6 wrote:
You can argue that they are not 'good enough' accelerators
Don't need to argue. Its fact. A v1.1 MiniMig, even with it's 28MHz(?) 68000 cannot compare on price, performance or compatibility with an even a 14MHz A1200. Form factor and novelty are MiniMig's two saving graces.
Belial6 wrote:
doesn't change the fact that they are A500s that can be boosted above the standard speed.
They are not quite A500's (yet).
Belial6 wrote:
You have to start somewhere. No doubt that as improvements happen
Yup. Yacqube has already shown it and as long as people keep an interest I imagine developments will progress.
Belial6 wrote:
and new FPGAs come out, speed will increase, and someone will add 020 instructions, and the fact that they cost more doesn't change the fact that they are being produced.
You're not going to make anything close to a 100MHz MC68060 with an FPGA for a LONG time. But yes I think that adding the 020+ instructions and stack format will be possible now. The cache... that is another issue as AFAIK no-one really knows how it was implemented. Trial and error no doubt. UAE does without it so I guess it's not THAT important. I bet Tobias Guebner is already working on it.
-
Quote:
Belial6 wrote:
and new FPGAs come out, speed will increase, and someone will add 020 instructions, and the fact that they cost more doesn't change the fact that they are being produced.
You're not going to make anything close to a 100MHz MC68060 with an FPGA for a LONG time.
I hate to be pessimistic, but bigger FPGAs will probably be all in BGA package, and soldering these beauties is not something easy to do in our backyard
Besides this, they also recquire a multi layer PCB (8 to 10 layers, maybe more) which are expensive and hard to do
In the good hand, I´ve heard some good news from some friends about Freescale.(hehehe) Let´s wait for the future :-D
-
AeroMan wrote:
I´ve heard some good news from some friends about Freescale.
??
Next gen Coldfire will be more compatible with 68k apps?
-
I´ve heard some good news from some friends about Freescale
If you have not signed a NDA then spill the beans already, it is not like we haven't been waiting for years to learn what exactly the new v5 coldfire will offer.
-
GBA1000 ? (http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/gba1000/gba1000.htm)
-
Aren't the 68040 chips still quite plentiful?
-
orb85750 wrote:
Aren't the 68040 chips still quite plentiful?
There was some 3.3V 68040V chips in boxes of 80 pcs for auction at eBay. They went at around $200, more or less.
-
alexh wrote:
When was the last time you saw 500 MC68060RC50 chips for sale?
Why not selling 68k boards without CPUs?
I think that most Classic Amiga users already have a 68k board but they want a new one because the board is broken or the new board is somehow better (possibility to use modern memory modules, flash memory for storing KS ROM and programs, etc.) than the old one. Removing a CPU from the old board and installing it to the new one isn't hard - I think.
-
A lot of accelerators (most?) have their CPUs soldered down, and PGA chips like that are very difficult to desolder without causing damage unless you have really specialised equipment...
-
I'll let you all into a little secret...
Run UAE on one of these:
(http://www.via.com.tw/en/images/products/mainboards/nano_itx/epia-n700/epia-n700.jpg)
Check out what you get... it will squeeze happily into an old Miggy case and give you EVERYTHING you could possibly want...
Nano-ITX (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/motherboards.jsp?motherboard_id=710)
-
bloodline wrote:
I'll let you all into a little secret...
Run UAE on one of these:
Check out what you get... it will squeeze happily into an old Miggy case and give you EVERYTHING you could possibly want...
... except real joystick ports and the "feel" of a genuine Miggy running old games.
-
Darrin wrote:
bloodline wrote:
I'll let you all into a little secret...
Run UAE on one of these:
Check out what you get... it will squeeze happily into an old Miggy case and give you EVERYTHING you could possibly want...
... except real joystick ports and the "feel" of a genuine Miggy running old games.
The Board comes with a Mini-PCI slot... Who doesn't one of the FPGA hackers here, build a breakout board with the Joystick ports... perhaps an RGB port... maybe even an Amiga floppy connector! the point is why not use a nice piece of high powered commodity hardware to do the boring stuff, and then use simpler hardware to do the exotic stuff...
Just looking around... the Pico-ITX boards are an even better fit!!!
As for feel... If you hid the host OS (Linux or Windows), you would never know you were running an Emulation! Until of course you brought up the config menu to run software than needs a specific hardware config... something real hardware simply can't do!
-
jpera wrote:
Why not selling 68k boards without CPUs?
Kinda defeats the point.
jpera wrote:
I think that most Classic Amiga users already have a 68k board but they want a new one because the board is broken
I think the market for Classic Amiga users who already own an MC68060 chip is ridiculously small don't you?
jpera wrote:
or the new board is somehow better (possibility to use modern memory modules, flash memory for storing KS ROM and programs, etc.) than the old one.
No-one who has a working 68060 board is going to seriously consider buying a new one are they? Most (all?) boards support BlizKick for storing KS ROM and most owners of 68060 boards have already maxed them out with RAM.
The only reason to upgrade that I can think of would be something like a true 2x performance upgrade. And even then I think people would think twice considering the sums of money involved.
jpera wrote:
Removing a CPU from the old board and installing it to the new one isn't hard - I think.
Agreed. But it is not a real market.
-
bloodline wrote:
The Board comes with a Mini-PCI slot... Who doesn't one of the FPGA hackers here, build a breakout board with the Joystick ports... perhaps an RGB port... maybe even an Amiga floppy connector! the point is why not use a nice piece of high powered commodity hardware to do the boring stuff, and then use simpler hardware to do the exotic stuff...
Just looking around... the Pico-ITX boards are an even better fit!!!
As for feel... If you hid the host OS (Linux or Windows), you would never know you were running an Emulation! Until of course you brought up the config menu to run software than needs a specific hardware config... something real hardware simply can't do!
So, like I said, it doesn't do everything I want. ;-)
Yes, a breakout board like you describe would be nice, so why hasn't anyone done it?
I use WinUAE and while it is very good, it still doesn't feel right. Fiddling with the setting tabs, waiting for the S to boot and then running UAE... it's just not the same. Close, but not the same. I'd rather use my A4000 and Minimig.
-
Something I've been thinking about for a while....
1. Real Amiga hardware is breaking down.
2. Many don't want to use Amiga emulation because emulation does not "feel right" due to the fact that custom chip funtctions aren't documented, only reverse engineered.
3. Then perhaps someone can produce an unpopulated PCI card where the user could insert a real PAUL, AGNES, DENISE, KICKSTART, etc. (from a dead Amiga).
4. The emulator (UAE) could recognise and use these real Amiga custom chips on the PCI card. It would only have to emulate the CPU and other address things (or heck - one could even put a real 68000 CPU on the card as an option).
This has been done to an extent with the C64 SID chip PCI cards.
-
didn't the PCI catweasel card support amiga mice/joysticks, and keyboards?
-
ral-clan wrote:
Something I've been thinking about for a while....
1. Real Amiga hardware is breaking down.
2. Many don't want to use Amiga emulation because emulation does not "feel right" due to the fact that custom chip funtctions aren't documented, only reverse engineered.
No, the Hardware was well documented, though obviously many of the bugs in the Amiga chipset were not well documented... The "feeling" problem is 99% psychological, based on a perceived difference between doing something "in Software" and doing it "in Hardware", the fact that Emulations use modern display and audio devices and thus lack the inherent flaws in the older devices... and the lack of "ritual" required to get the Emulation running.
3. Then perhaps someone can produce an unpopulated PCI card where the user could insert a real PAUL, AGNES, DENISE, KICKSTART, etc. (from a dead Amiga).
Why bother... the amount of work required to get it to sync up, you may as well just use UAE... plus, do you really want to plug a TV, Amiga Mouse, Amiga Keyboard into your PC?... You would prefer to just use the I/O of the PC... bang... let's just use UAE...
4. The emulator (UAE) could recognise and use these real Amiga custom chips on the PCI card. It would only have to emulate the CPU and other address things (or heck - one could even put a real 68000 CPU on the card as an option).
To Sync with real hardware is a pain..
This has been done to an extent with the C64 SID chip PCI cards.
The SID chip is basically a simple but quirky Synth on a chip, that is quite desirable... the Amiga is a more integrated system, with the individual parts not doing much on their own...
-
bloodline wrote:
The "feeling" problem is 99% psychological, based on a perceived difference between doing something "in Software" and doing it "in Hardware"
Nah, it's more the fact most people do not run UAE with a 50Hz screen (or 100Hz?) and vsync on.
-
alexh wrote:
bloodline wrote:
The "feeling" problem is 99% psychological, based on a perceived difference between doing something "in Software" and doing it "in Hardware"
Nah, it's more the fact most people do not run UAE with a 50Hz screen (or 100Hz?) and vsync on.
True, Shadow of the Beast 2 is beautiful on my MBP in WinUAE with the proper Vsyncing switched on :-)
But I still remember when I first moved to LCD from CRT... I found it very uncomfortable... but now I'm used to LCD and I find CRTs uncomfortable... people just have to learn to get used to the new technology.
-
little wrote:
I´ve heard some good news from some friends about Freescale
If you have not signed a NDA then spill the beans already, it is not like we haven't been waiting for years to learn what exactly the new v5 coldfire will offer.
Sorry, I´m not allowed to do that, unfortunately... :-(
-
Sorry, I´m not allowed to do that, unfortunately
Give us at least an approximate date, like 3rd quarter of the year.
Anyhow, my bet is full 32 bit emulation (68020/30/40 and maybe even 60). Why not include the 68000? because it (like the intel procesor prior to VT-x AMD-v) cannot be virtualized and a fast enough coldfire should be able to trap instructions and easily emulate a 68000 at say 28 mhz (fast enough for any games) and any games/applications requiring more speed were compatible with the 68020 and upwards.
-
little wrote:
Sorry, I´m not allowed to do that, unfortunately
Give us at least an approximate date, like 3rd quarter of the year.
Anyhow, my bet is full 32 bit emulation (68020/30/40 and maybe even 60). Why not include the 68000? because it (like the intel procesor prior to VT-x AMD-v) cannot be virtualized and a fast enough coldfire should be able to trap instructions and easily emulate a 68000 at say 28 mhz (fast enough for any games) and any games/applications requiring more speed were compatible with the 68020 and upwards.
??? The Coldfire is already a sort of 68060, missing a bunch of instruction and addressing modes that are difficult to pipeline and consume valuable silicon space...
Unless Freescale sort out the incompatible instructions (instructions that don't work the same way as the original 68k equivalents) and rip out the entire Coldfire supervisor mode, which it totally incompatible with the 68k... The coldfire is totally unusable in an Amiga... you can't trap these flaws/features...
-
I've been using LCD for many years, and would never want to go back to CRT for daily use... but nothing beats an Eizo Diamondtron, or a good Trinitron for classic gaming using real hardware. One reason being that LCD smearing is usually much worse at non-native resolutions - it's definitely not as much of an issue with WinUAE on a fast LCD. ;-)
Someone mentioned that the old hardware is dying off - battery damage, and leaking caps on the SMT boards. Another reason why a new CPU card for the classics likely won't happen. (I've had to significantly improve my hw repair skillz to keep the oldies running :-)) But there are still plenty of cool projects around for those interested in something different than (or in addition to) UAE... minimig, clone-a, the GB1000, etc.
-
sort out the incompatible instructions (instructions that don't work the same way as the original 68k equivalents) and rip out the entire Coldfire supervisor mode,
If they run a virtual 32-bit 680x0 in it's own thread there is no need to remove anything from the original coldfire, so the main OS would run in coldfire mode and any apps requiring 68020+ mode would run in a separate thread, with it's own supervisor mode. Worst case scenario, if the 68020 thread goes bonkers (guru meditation anyone?) then the main os simple ends it without any danger to the main system stability.
-
little wrote:
sort out the incompatible instructions (instructions that don't work the same way as the original 68k equivalents) and rip out the entire Coldfire supervisor mode,
If they run a virtual 32-bit 680x0 in it's own thread there is no need to remove anything from the original coldfire, so the main OS would run in coldfire mode and any apps requiring 68020+ mode would run in a separate thread, with it's own supervisor mode. Worst case scenario, if the 68020 thread goes bonkers (guru meditation anyone?) then the main os simple ends it without any danger to the main system stability.
Then why bother with a ColdFire?!?! If you are going to that trouble... then a PPC will be cheaper and faster, and have more support... The Coldfire is really mean as a user mode source compatible 68k CPU... it was not designed as drop in replacement for the 68k on the desktop. As far as Motorola were concerned the 68k was a dead end, and all future work should be done with the PPC.
-
It was me who suggested the news might be about Coldfire. It could be something else altogether!
If it is just about Freescale confirming that they have no patents still enforceable on the 020+ instruction set (making it legally reproducible in FPGA designs) I'll be a bit disappointed. :-)
-
more likely it's the fact that Freescale are trying to raise $1 billion... Perhaps to develop their potential cash cow of MRAM.
-
bloodline wrote:
No, the Hardware was well documented, though obviously many of the bugs in the Amiga chipset were not well documented... The "feeling" problem is 99% psychological, based on a perceived difference between doing something "in Software" and doing it "in Hardware", the fact that Emulations use modern display and audio devices and thus lack the inherent flaws in the older devices... and the lack of "ritual" required to get the Emulation running.
That is certainly one of my big problems with it. The last time I checked, E-UAE was not really on par with WinUAE, so you also have to have a Windows license to run WinUAE.
To get me to do a real switch to Emulation and have it feel like a real Amiga what would be needed is:
*Hide the PC POST. This can be done on many motherboards. My MSI board official supports this functionality.
*Have real 9 pin joysticks. Catweasal already supports this, but I believe it is only under Windows. It does also give the ability to read real Amiga floppies while it is at it.
*Get Windows out of the equation. I don't want to have both Amiga Inc. AND MS getting in my way when I want to play with my toys. Things like, I don't want to have to "Activate" my Amiga with MS.
*Boot directly into UAE. Easy, no problem.
*A clean way to select configurations. This is certainly doable, but it is just not there right now. Personally if all the other pieces came together, I would consider making myself an external button/LCD screen that would let me toggle between configurations/boot options so that I never had to see the PC side. I wouldn't think that it would be unrealistic to write an app that runs in Workbench that will manage the configuration files.
There is nothing technical that prevents an x86/emulation system from being indistinguishable from a 'real Amiga' (one might even say from BEING a 'real Amiga'). It's just that no one has done it, and I don't see anyone indicating that they are moving in that direction.
-
Then why bother with a ColdFire?!?! If you are going to that trouble...
1. it is cheap
2. it would be the best hardware emulation solution (if my supposition is right).
3. would be a true roadmap to leverage legacy and at the same time access modern hardware.
AFAIL powerpc was never Motorola's idea, more like Apple and IBM making a deal with motorola to create a new cpu architecture where EVERYONE would have ip rights, not just motorola.
E-UAE was not really on par with WinUAE
I always wonder why there is no bounty to update e-uae up to date where winuae is right now.
-
little wrote:
Then why bother with a ColdFire?!?! If you are going to that trouble...
1. it is cheap
No it's not... compare it with ARM, PPC and x86...
2. it would be the best hardware emulation solution (if my supposition is right).
The best hardware emulation would be x86... Cheap and powerful...
3. would be a true roadmap to leverage legacy and at the same time access modern hardware.
It is a technological dead end... How is that in any way a true road map?
AFAIL powerpc was never Motorola's idea, more like Apple and IBM making a deal with motorola to create a new cpu architecture where EVERYONE would have ip rights, not just motorola.
Ok, you need to read your history... Even Wikipedia has a good article on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC
PPC was a win win for everyone involved at the time!
E-UAE was not really on par with WinUAE
I always wonder why there is no bounty to update e-uae up to date where winuae is right now.
I think the demand for Amiga Emulators can be measured in the low 1000s... of that the majority of users will be Windows users... The Amiga is only going to get less popular as time goes on. Almost all Amiga Games are available on other (more popular) platforms (notably the easy to emulate on modern systems DOS platform)... Unless someone buys Toni Wilen a MacBook Pro, WinUAE will get to 99.9% perfect emulation of every Amiga model, and then the machine will die out.
We are all getting older too... one by one we will die and the Amiga will just be a foot note in history books.
-
Daedalus wrote:
A lot of accelerators (most?) have their CPUs soldered down, and PGA chips like that are very difficult to desolder without causing damage unless you have really specialised equipment...
Fortunately I have a A3640 :-)
-
alexh wrote:
I think the market for Classic Amiga users who already own an MC68060 chip is ridiculously small don't you?
No-one who has a working 68060 board is going to seriously consider buying a new one are they? Most (all?) boards support BlizKick for storing KS ROM and most owners of 68060 boards have already maxed them out with RAM.
The only reason to upgrade that I can think of would be something like a true 2x performance upgrade. And even then I think people would think twice considering the sums of money involved.
I have a broken 040 board (A3640) and I'm not really interested in 060 boards. I would be happy to get a new 040 board without a CPU. If I need more CPU power, I use my A1.
Those lucky ones who have a working 060 board may think like you said and the markets are small, I agree. I don't know anything about hardware design, but if there was a board with 3 (or 2?) CPU sockets (for 030, 040 and 060), with some nice but cheap extra features, and the installed CPU could be easily overclocked, it might sell quite well.
-
alexh wrote:
...
edge connectors in RoHS plastic
...
:-o
Never heard that - what's that meant to be?
-
It is illegal in the EU to sell NEW electronic products using certain plastic connectors that were used in the past. That instantly rules out using most NOS (New old stock) connectors, if you could find them.
One part of the RoHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances) requirements is that you must use a substitute for certain chemicals (mainly fire depressants) in your plastics. This has required development of new plastics and new tooling.
-
DoogUK wrote:
Some of us like the fact we can still use 20 year old hardware...
:-D
Sorry - but I feel I have to go slightly OT here.
Today is my Dad's 80th birthday and I prepared a big surprise for him.
When he was 18-20, he got himself a "music center" consisting of a record changer for old shellack disc recordings (78 rpm), LW/MW receiver, loudspeaker box and 2 record racks for 100 shellack records (50 each) - all fitted into a sort of sideboard.
When my parents and I fled from the "German Democratic Republic" in August 1959, my father had to leave his "music center" with all his records behind. My grandparents took it and later my aunt.
At some point in time my uncle didn't like the "music center" anymore and chopped it up - after dismounting the turntable drive. He had it in his basement for decades and after the iron curtain fell, my dad took it back as a sort of souvenir of his youth.
Now it rested in my dad's basement in Cologne - until last Saturday.
I had the idea to overhaul the turntable for my dad's 80th bithday so he can play some of his own (roughly 60 years) old records.
A few years ago I overhauled an old tube radio (Schaub Junior (http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/schaub_junior_gw.html)) for a friend of mine, who found it while cleaning up his attic - manufactured in roughly the same period as my Dad was born in.
Last night my friend borrowed me the old receiver and I brought the two together.
Wow - THAT was a sound, when I played 60 years old records on a 60 years old turntable using an 75 years old receiver and loudspeaker!
(the volume control currently doesn't work - it plays with max. volume!)
:hammer: :cheers:
-
@Dandy
And your father? What did you get him for his birthday?
-
@bloodline:
We are all getting older too... one by one we will die and the Amiga will just be a foot note in history books.
its really sweet of you.
-
bloodline wrote:
@Dandy
And your father? What did you get him for his birthday?
I created the possibility for him to be able to listen to his own old records after having not been able to do so for a period of 40 years - that's half of his life!
I know the feelings I get if I now listen to an old record of mine that I didn't play for a decade or so - my Dad's feelings will even be stronger after four decades!
Furthermore he gets a ticket for the theatre and some money for the trip he & mum planned for this summer...
-
@ Dandy
What a great idea you had there. I bet your dad will love it. Thanks for sharing that story.
-
Nice idea about the record player! But it'll be more like 50 years than 60 years I should think, if it has radios and stuff built in, and uses a diamond or ceramic stylus rather than a steel needle.
Incidentally, if you have any records that are valuable do NOT play them! Those old music centres were great for trashing vinyl/shellac at the best of times, and if it's not set up properly it can do a lot of damage, and if you're using an old stylus chances are they'll be ruined very quickly. You're unlikely to have anything worth $$$ but be careful! Basically if it's Blues don't play it without checking up on it, and some jazz is sought after too. Anything with Robert Johnson written on it keep safe. :)
-
bloodline wrote:
But I still remember when I first moved to LCD from CRT... I found it very uncomfortable... but now I'm used to LCD and I find CRTs uncomfortable... people just have to learn to get used to the new technology.
I still haven't moved to LCD at home, even though I have one as a second monitor, and use them all day, every day in work. I wouldn't say I find either uncomfortable, but I still don't like normal LCDs' colour rendition, or the restricted viewing angle, or their definition in bright light situations. I agree, most people won't mind and will just get used to LCD, but I'm one of those picky ones, and for me to have the colour, detail and resolution I want, I'd have to pay far more than your average LCD would cost. Yet about 5 years ago I picked up a 21" Trinitron which has all the colour definition, detail and resolution I want for the price of a few pints.
(It also happens that I still have a lovely 32" CRT TV in my living room for similar reasons)
Having said that, I do run WinUAE a fair bit and while there may be very little difference from my classic machine (bar the massive speed boost in some situations), it's still not the same. The keyboard's not the same in either layout or feeling, and it feels somewhat awkward to use ADFs (though I know that floppies shouldn't be an issue in this day and age.) WinUAE does give me the possibility to test software and settings on so many different configurations, as well as letting me use AmigaOS in the kitchen, living room, work etc., something I otherwise couldn't do.
Another thing that someone else mentioned here is the POST of all PCs. That does my nut in, it's like the manufacturer saying "Look at this: This machine has all sorts of complicated things going on that you wouldn't understand, mess with them at your peril!" I do understand its purpose and what it displays, but I don't want to see it. It reminds me of the Simpsons, where Homer (I think) suggests an "Everything's alright" alarm that sounds every few seconds when nothing's wrong. I believe a computer should only give you messages during startup that are important, like a memory test failure or a corrupt system file. Amigas used to do it like that, Macs still do.
P.S. I also note that some of these things are also an issue on AmigaOnes and the likes - there's a POST display, a PC keyboard and all the issues with floppies. And I think it's a shame :-(
-
Incidentally, if you have any records that are valuable do NOT play them! Those old music centres were great for trashing vinyl/shellac at the best of times, and if it's not set up properly it can do a lot of damage, and if you're using an old stylus chances are they'll be ruined very quickly. You're unlikely to have anything worth $$$ but be careful! Basically if it's Blues don't play it without checking up on it, and some jazz is sought after too. Anything with Robert Johnson written on it keep safe. :)
oh come on... in my opinion it's more important his dad got this blast-of-the-past experience then any money can provide. How many kids would do such a nice thing :-)
Tom UK
-
spirantho wrote:
Nice idea about the record player! But it'll be more like 50 years than 60 years I should think, if it has radios and stuff built in, and uses a diamond or ceramic stylus rather than a steel needle.
My dad bought the music centre in 1949 - so that's roughly 60 years as we have 2009 now, wouldn't you agree?
The built in radio just had LW and MW and the turn table uses steel needles.
spirantho wrote:
Incidentally, if you have any records that are valuable do NOT play them!
I don't think there are valuable records - but you're right - you never know...
spirantho wrote:
Those old music centres were great for trashing vinyl/shellac at the best of times,
From my own experience I'd say shellack records are ruggedised - as long as you don't bend them...
spirantho wrote:
and if it's not set up properly it can do a lot of damage,
Everything is set up properly and works like a charm.
spirantho wrote:
and if you're using an old stylus chances are they'll be ruined very quickly.
Still enough steel needles in stock - brand new and still in their original packagings.
spirantho wrote:
You're unlikely to have anything worth $$$ but be careful!
Yeah - you never know...
spirantho
Basically if it's Blues don't play it without checking up on it, and some jazz is sought after too. Anything with Robert Johnson written on it keep safe. :)
I'll have a close look at the disks before playing them...
-
alexh wrote:
It is illegal in the EU to sell NEW electronic products using certain plastic connectors that were used in the past. That instantly rules out using most NOS (New old stock) connectors, if you could find them.
One part of the RoHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances) requirements is that you must use a substitute for certain chemicals (mainly fire depressants) in your plastics. This has required development of new plastics and new tooling.
I see.
Initially I understood it that way that (card)edge connectors are not ROHS compatible (and thus no longer available?).
Before the introduction of ROHS I bought myself two big rolls of solder really cheap - enough solder for the rest of my life.
It is the good, old solder containing lead - and I'm not going to throw it away just because of some stupid EU directive.
-
You can still buy and use leaded solder everywhere.
You just cannot use it in parts which are then sold as retail.
The edge connectors are still available to order in RoHS for about $1 each but they have minimum order quantities (MOQ) of 1000 units.
-
Nostalgiac wrote:
...
How many kids would do such a nice thing :-)
Thanks for the nice words!
Nostalgiac wrote:
UK, just west of London
Hmmmmm - next tuesday and wednesday I'll be on a business trip to Basildon (Trafford House) and South End On Sea - that's "just east of London"...
-
alexh wrote:
You can still buy and use leaded solder everywhere.
Huh???
I would have expected it got banned by RoHS, as it contains lead.
alexh wrote:
You just cannot use it in parts which are then sold as retail.
...
Hmmmm - I'm not in hardware production in any way.
My soldering works are just for hobby puposes so far.
What would the legal situation be if I overhauled some electronic equipment - using my leaded solder - and then take money for the repairing work?