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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: spaceman88 on February 09, 2009, 02:25:37 AM

Title: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: spaceman88 on February 09, 2009, 02:25:37 AM
Hi,
I started working on my never ending project again ( an A4000D in a toaster oven tower). It was mostly disassembled when I received it, but had an IDE boot drive and a SCSI drive that wasn't connected to anything. I tried putting in a few of the SCSI cards (a DKB Rapidfire, Alpfa Data Octagon, a GVP card and an ICD card). The computer sees the board but not the drive. Is there something special I'm supposed to do? I tried jumpers in different positions, but no luck.
Thanks, Len
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: Tension on February 09, 2009, 02:32:34 AM
Termination, Termination, Termination.

Like the TV show.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: save2600 on February 09, 2009, 02:33:42 AM
SCSI *IS* a pain if you're not used to them. Are you trying to use the same drive with all those cards? If so, make sure it is terminated properly and that you change your device driver to its appropriate designation. In other words, make sure HDTools (or whatever) knows you've got a SCSI card named xxxxxxxSCSI.device   (usually has the card or brand name and then the SCSI trailer).

In the early days, Amiga used to be known for its seemingly "plug and play" attributes. Yeah, right. You've got to take your sally by the hand and tell her EXACTLY what is going on, else things do not work right.  


Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: orb85750 on February 09, 2009, 02:37:30 AM
Also, make sure you have the jumper settings correct on the cards themselves.  For example, the GVP combo SCSI/accelerator cards have a different jumper setting if you're using a drive versus not using a drive.  Do you have the software for the respective cards that you tried?
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: terminator4 on February 09, 2009, 03:26:21 AM
Termination jumper on your hard disk?  if not then get a scsi cdrom and put that at the end of cable (terminated also).  End of scsi cable must be terminated.  Check your SCSI card jumpers are set per user manual or bboah.  the only reason why your hard disk would not be detected then would be incorrect jumper settings on it.  consult manufacturer manual for that or post here.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: marcfrick2112 on February 09, 2009, 04:52:47 AM
Hi, Also, do you have another SCSI drive to use? They can fail, just like any other drive... (Tho, SCSI, IMO, seem more robust than IDE, I still have my first Amiga HDD, a huge 40MB SCSI Quantum, still works :) As suggested, check the BBoAH, amiga resource . cx , etc. for any info regarding jumpers/software, etc.

SCSI can be difficult to setup at first. Check everything. Twice. (Some drives may have a header marked 'test', don't put a jumper on it.... (Yes I did this once...) Take it slow, you'll get it sorted.... Myself, I hate IDE, what's all this 'cable select' nonsense...
 :-D
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: Tenacious on February 09, 2009, 11:58:49 AM
There are rules of thumb with SCSI the same as any other interface.

There can be upto 8 devices in a SCSI daisy chain, each with a unique address, 0 thru 7.  The controller is usually address 7, leaving room for 7 peripherals.  You must ensure that no two devices are jumpered to the same address, conflicted.  The address does not determine physically where in the chain a device is located.

From the controller, the chain can radiate in two directions: external devices connected from the D-sub 25 connector, and internal devices on the ribbon cable inside the machine.  There may be no external devices and only a HD internally.

Termination: only the last physical device at the two ends of the chain should/must be terminated.


Google will turn up more in-depth info about SCSI.  The rest is going to be unique to your card.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: jrfjunior on February 09, 2009, 01:13:51 PM
SCSI was the Amiga standard but now is a dead standard. As IDE becomes widely available then pos Amiga IDE adapters becames popular. For me the future will be USB 3.0 (with faster transfer rates and the easily connection of this kind of hardware).

Quote

spaceman88 wrote:
Hi,
I started working on my never ending project again ( an A4000D in a toaster oven tower). It was mostly disassembled when I received it, but had an IDE boot drive and a SCSI drive that wasn't connected to anything. I tried putting in a few of the SCSI cards (a DKB Rapidfire, Alpfa Data Octagon, a GVP card and an ICD card). The computer sees the board but not the drive. Is there something special I'm supposed to do? I tried jumpers in different positions, but no luck.
Thanks, Len
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: DoogUK on February 09, 2009, 04:21:50 PM
SCSI is far from dead and is still faster and better than ide which uses lots of cpu overhead.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: HopperJF on February 09, 2009, 05:23:10 PM
SCSI and IDE are dead.

SATA is the new standard.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: Floid on February 09, 2009, 05:41:52 PM
Quote

HopperJF wrote:
SCSI and IDE are dead.

SATA is the new standard.


Don't forget SAS (Serial-Attached SCSI) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Attached_SCSI).  I gather the enterprisey thing to do is to use SAS controllers (as preinstalled on modern server boards) with mostly SATA disks.  (Of course, this is a big difference between SAS and prior SCSI flavors... these days the entire industry is aligned around making SATA and SAS play nice together and complement each other, hence the SATA-in-SAS and SATA-right-into-a-SAS-controller support.)

SATA is plenty "good enough" that there's basically no reason for a home user to go SAS (the benefits probably don't show until you have 128+ disks to juggle), though I still expect full SAS controllers to start trickling down once southbridges go through another couple die shrinks and someone convinces the overclocker/gamer crowd that SAS will somehow improve their framerates or level load times.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: terminator4 on February 09, 2009, 05:54:53 PM
finally a post that makes sense.  
scsi is not dead. :roll: Serial-ATA is in use on home PCs.  SAS/iSCSI on networks/servers.  Hence, it makes no sense for a "cheap" home user to spend big money on SCSI today. In early 80s/90s SCSI was used as its performance was visibly better than IDE/ata.  
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: CLS2086 on February 09, 2009, 07:06:29 PM
I can use SCA-80 HDD (7200/10000 rpm) on all my amiga scsi systems :rtfm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Connector_Attachment
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CY6QZRDVL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: terminator4 on February 09, 2009, 07:12:13 PM
So what?  What does this have to do with the discussion here?
(someone said SCSI being dead)  Unless you mean its not dead, b/c you can use your SCA SCSI drives on your Amiga?
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: save2600 on February 09, 2009, 07:48:29 PM
Within the past few years, various friends have literally given me their companies old Dell servers. Talk about heavy metal! I used one as weight in the back of my trunk one winter. lol  But to those that think SCSI is "dead"... each one of those servers had a wicked SCSI setup in 'em. I've got about 12 drives over here and a couple of PCI<>SCSI2 cards just waiting to be used. And like another user posted... get yourself those 50 pin adapters and you'll be golden!!    

Funny though... the CD-ROMS, floppies and DAT/tape backup units were all IDE in those systems.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: spaceman88 on February 15, 2009, 07:04:35 PM
Hi again,
I've been playing with the setup (I'm using a GVP A4000 - HC+8 series 2 controller and a Quantum hard drive). HDTools doesn't see the setup (just the seagate IDE boot drive), Sysinfo shows the board but not the drive. The cable only has 2 connectors, only one device at a time. The controller and HD each have 3 jumpers marked SCSI ID, I tried moving these in different combinations ( I don't have any manuals or software), I've added and removed the termination jumper under the HD and tried a SCSI CDROM still no luck. What should I do next?
Len

P.S. I still hate SCSI!!!
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: CLS2086 on February 15, 2009, 07:15:51 PM
open a cli/shell and put :

hdtoolbox gvpscsi.device

Then you'll see your SCSI devices only your GVP adapter
 :rtfm:
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: Tenacious on February 15, 2009, 07:51:36 PM
You probable need the software for your controller.  Google it.  Get the software and docs.  As was already said, HDtoolBox should be directed to look for GVPSCSI.device

Quantum drives are great and simple. Put a jumper on SCSI ID 1 (in case the controller is calling itself 0).  Also put one on TE (terminate enable), if the drive is less than about 100 Megs (an older design) it will need resistor packs for termination instead.  Finding details of your drive would be great. Google it, too.

If the HD is the only device then it is the last device and needs termination.

What specific HD (size, model)?  When you connect power only to the drive, does it spin up?
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: KatManDEW on February 15, 2009, 08:37:56 PM
HDToolBox never showed any devices on my A2000 with GVP 040 all these years. But after I got an A1200 a few weeks ago, I was recearching the 4 gig limit, and stumbled onto someone mentioning changing HDToolBox to use the gvpscsi.device. I took a wild stab and clicked once on the HDToolBox icon, and selected Icons - Information, and changed the SCSI_DEVICE_NAME= entry from scsi.device to gvpscsi.device, and presto - my GVP SCSI devices now show up in HDToolBox.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: spaceman88 on February 17, 2009, 11:48:49 PM
I found the hard drive on google (VP32210) and found it is junpered to SCSI ID # 1 and has two termination packs installed. For the controller I found some software for an A4008, which I think is the same/similar to my A4000 hc+8.I need to transfer it from my MacBook and "un-DMS" it. But I could not find a manual to tell me the what jumpers to set for ID # 1.
Len

Oh it's a 2.1 Gig drive and it spins up.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: Tenacious on February 18, 2009, 03:43:57 AM
Hi Len

What are the jumpers on the drive?  There should be about 6 of them.

I've never owned a GVP HC+8, but, I think it is a SCSI interface/ram expansion Zorro II card (meant for the A2000).  The ram is probably 16 bit, not 32 bit.  The SCSI interface should also work in an A4000 (so will the ram, but it will be slower).  It seems that Jumper 4 enables Autobooting.  I think jumpers 10 thru 12 set SCSI ID of the controller itself.  If this is true, the drive and the controller can not have the same address.

There are SCSI diagnostic utilities on Aminet.   I'm not with my Amiga now, but try to find one that will "poll" the SCSI.device.  Get one that will allow you to change the device to GVPSCSI.device.
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: Ami_GFX on February 18, 2009, 04:39:09 AM
I would check the scsi device name--it must correspond to the scsi board used. On the A4000D, HDToolbox is set up for IDE. Open the tools folder, select HDToolbox and click information on the icon menu(or left A key i). There will be a line in the tool types box that reads:
"SCSI_DEVICE_NAME=scsi.device" for the built in IDE of the A4000D. If you want to use the GVP card, you have change this to "gvpscsi.device". Other cards from other manufacturs will have different device names. If you don't have the autoboot enabled on the Gvp card, you have to have a file called "gvpscsi" in your expansion drawer. This is on the install disk which also contains gvp's own hard disk partitioning software.
Once you have the correct scsi device name in the tool types of HDToolbox, it should recognize the drive and you should be able to partition it and have the partitions recognized.

Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: Ami_GFX on February 18, 2009, 05:01:35 AM
I just read the whole thread and I see I'm repeating information already posted with a little more detail.

It does sound like your problem is the scsi device name. Try just having one drive connected with termintion on that drive to begin with to avoid having termination issues and once you get that one going, you can expand the SCSI chain. Cheers
Title: Re: I Hate SCSI !!!
Post by: rockape on February 18, 2009, 11:02:28 AM
Hi Spaceman,

see http://wonkity.com/~wblock/SCSI/SCSIExamples.html

"It seems that the SCSI bus is one of the most misunderstood aspects of connecting hard drives and other peripherals to the A4000 (or, for that matter, any other Amiga model). This section of the guide is an attempt to provide some simple examples of proper SCSI device connections. Please note that in the following section, and in the Guide as a whole, I have used the common term controller when referring to disk adapter boards, although the more accurate description for both SCSI and IDE would be "host adapter."


Regards, Michael

aka rockape