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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: AmigaPixel on February 01, 2009, 03:34:45 AM
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Hi all thought I post this subject after posted it in the Desktop video forum.
I was hoping that If OS 4.1 and the Sam 440ep start selling more, even as a nich market that Newtek would port over the new VT5 to Amiga OS. Or allow a third party to do it. It doesn't seem like it would be to hard for a skilled programmer, especially since the new Amiga hardware has PCI slots. Speed Edit alone would be a prize on the Amiga, it is resolution independent. Any programmers out there have any thoughts on this and how practical this would be? :-D
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The absence of a Mac version speaks volumes. My guess is that there are a fair number of MS Windows APIs used. The SAM bus is slow and it lacks an Intel based chip.
But, I can't quite even figure out what VT5 even does. It seems to be a live video switcher, not exactly something that might be of interest to a sizable number of people.
The economics of porting to the same are very bad, there's slightly over a thousand, the cost of porting would be in the range of several thousand US dollars per SAM machine made.
It isn't going to happen. Newtek isn't a charity...
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/nyrab/emoticons/beat-dead-horse.gif)(http://www.clockcrew.cc/talk/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif)
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Good point! it would be too expensive. It is a live switcher but also a post production edit suite, basically the A Video Toaster/Flyer on steroids. Full High Def input/output alot more channels etc.it uses Speed Edit for the non-linear editing which is also sold as a stand alone software package I believe. That seems much more viable to port over. :-)
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The VT for pc uses windows and directX, the Host CPU power and the power of the AGP or PCIE graphics card to do the video effect transitions. There has never been a mac version becuase of the non standard Qaurtz graphics engine or whatever it's called. Too risky, another api to program for. Apple could simply make the toaster unsuable with a software update. Remember Apple competes with NewTek for the desktop video marketplace.
Just look at what happened to the Matrox RT2 dv external adpater for MAc. A great unit compatible with final cut, accelerated transtions, realtime DV editing, outout to a second VGA and NSTC monitor. It extended the uses of an entery level G4 quite well...As apple updated osX compatiblity was not insured leaving many with a $1500 doorstop, forcing folks to purchase a mac with DUAL g4's or better for realtime effects.
I use SPEEDEDIT on my macbook unibody runningXP. It's essentially VT5 without the live switching.
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I don't think Newtek will never ever port anything to the Amiga. We should be happy they supported the Toaster - flyer folks as long as they did.
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Best situation would be for someone to port the code on openvideotoaster.org to work with the new card. We suggested this years ago. Too many hooks to Windows API in VT[5] codebase to port to any other OS.
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Very good points and insights. Yes the Open Video Toaster seems to be the best bet. I would think there is a lot of potential for adapting the software.
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With technology today you I'm sure can make a toaster VT4000 class device live on just one chip. Maybee an FPGA or something. If you look at the VT4 for pc there are Altera chips on it, I think thats an FPGA or an maybe it's what'scalled an AISIC (if I remember corretly, probably wrong).
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I had forgotten about the Matrox RT2. Was there a PC version? I thought I had seen one, those Matrox users must of been really pissed.
I had noticed the the Altera chip on a VT1. The Flyer has At&T chip on it. Yes it all could be put on one chip now. That would be very interesting project with an FPGA. :-D
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@Crom00
Yup, the Amiga Video Toaster 4000 redone in one FPGA chip would be awesome.
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Funny how you have all the Asian knock off or work-alike $80 mp3/camera/game player radio ipod thingy devices out there on EBAY and inner city cell phone stores....
LOL!... They surely outdo the A4000 and TOASTER 4000 in terms of CPU power. They already have 24 bit color? Heck 15 year old $10 VGA card outdid the AGA chipset...
Slap an FPGA with all the Toaster circuits and code bits. Add breakout video i/o cable and viola... an, IPOD Video Toaster...lol!
Aladdin 4D could provide all the 3d graphics...
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I've never seen the modern NewTek video editing tools, how do they compare with Final Cut, Vega, Premiere or Pinnacle? NewTek is not a name you'd associate with video editing if you didn't have an Amiga background...
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@persia
LightWave is still used a lot in game design.
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Newtek's Crown jewel these days seems to be the Tricaster. They're popping up quite a lot.
As far as editing is concerned Final cut, Avid, and Adobe Premiere are Kings. Just like 3dsMax and Maya are kings of the 3DWorld.
Still, Lightwave and the modern Video Toaster pop up everywhere. Unfortunatley, more often than not mentioning NewTek get you that "oh yeah... that company.." remark. Yet anything Apple touches appears to become blessed.
SpeedEDIT was VTEdit unbundled from the Video Toaster. It's called SpeedEDIT becuase it's fast in that you don't have to transcode any video, (supports most every video format PC and MAC) wheras Final Cut, Avid, Preimiere have to transcode the video into another codec for use in their editors.
Even so, SpeedEDIT is marketed as another tool for editors to add to their arsenal, not a Final Cut killer.
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AmigaPixel wrote:
Hi all thought I post this subject after posted it in the Desktop video forum.
I was hoping that If OS 4.1 and the Sam 440ep start selling more, even as a nich market that Newtek would port over the new VT5 to Amiga OS. Or allow a third party to do it. It doesn't seem like it would be to hard for a skilled programmer, especially since the new Amiga hardware has PCI slots. Speed Edit alone would be a prize on the Amiga, it is resolution independent. Any programmers out there have any thoughts on this and how practical this would be? :-D
The sam would be way too slow for that.
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The Sam is a joke.
VT% System Requirements
PROCESSOR:
Dual Intel or AMD processors that support SSE2 (Dual core CPUs recommended)
Front-side Bus speed of 800MHz or higher
INTERFACE:
An open 66MHz PCI slot for the VT[5] card is recommended for best performance (Additional slot needed for breakout cable)
Any IEEE1394 FireWire card for DV and HDV capture
GRAPHICS CARD:
PCI Express-based graphics card w/ 64MB RAM per display
DirectX 9.0c or higher # Latest graphics card drivers
Minimum screen resolution of 1280x1024 required
SYSTEM RAM:
2 Gigabytes or more of system RAM
HARD DRIVES::
Software-striped SATA drives for video storage and playback
8 Gigabytes of storage for DVEs and content
System drive with 2GB of free disk space
DVD Drive
OPERATING SYSTEM::
Windows® XP Professional (SP2) or Windows Vista 32-bit
Windows® Media Player 9 or higher
Windows® Media Encoder 9 or higher for streaming
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GTo understand why the VT4 will never work in a Sam, realize that the VT4 card itself is a high quality capture card for uncompressed video.
It does not speed up or accelerate this process with GPU or custom chip accelerated fuctions...
The transitions FX, drive controllers and "uncompressed video capability" rely on the host systems CPU power, ram and disk speed. This approach was taken to make us of commodity priced PC hardware and make the VT4 system easily upgradeable via software (unline the vt2000/4000)
The card they sell today is slightly revised version of the Vt2/Vt3 cards from like 7 years ago.
You're thinking about the original Amiga Toaster and Flyer card where the 2 cards worked in tandem, the flyer had 3 scsi controllers, I/0 hardware etc and LOTs of custome chips to make it happen in conjuction with ecs/AGA.
So back then becuase soooo much was done with the Flyer and Toaster 4000 cards, you only needed a 25 mghtz setup.
Really there's soooo much going on when you run the VT5 (compared to the old Amiga versions...) it's crazy, when you think about it. If you're in VTedit it's constanly updating the timeline. Built in realtime Vectorscope... Lightwave multitasks, etc... IVGA can capture video from another PC or MAC via ethernet. All of this is possible due to the use of Windows and muti-Ghz setups.
mine is a dual xeon 3.4 gthz 5 gig ram HP XW8000 setup.
I love the "Amiga Way" of working but so much would have to be added to OS4 from scratch.. When I think about it...well I scratch my head in confusion as to why you'd want to go through the effort?
Get a firewire interface working and that alone will keep you busy and most folks quite happpy.
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@persia
You seem to ignore that VT was first on Amigas and it ran very well on 25Mhz Amigas & Z2 & Z3 slots & very little RAM.
But surely it might be too hard to turn WIntel philosophy SW back to Amiga philosophy.
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Again the solution here is to adapt the open source Amiga Video Toaster Flyer software to work with the new VT PCI card.
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It's no longer about the Wintel vs. Amiga software philosphy. Newtek have skilled efficient programmers (Amiga veterans to boot...) who know how to code & make use of every last bit of juice a system can offer.
Comparing the VT Amiga series to the PC in terms of functionality is apples to oranges...The PC Toaster has soooo muck more going on and the CPU and it's intstruction sets are being used extensively.
I've spent many hours on VT4/5, Amiga Toaster Flyer, Tricaster AND SpeedEDIT so my position comes from way too much money spent on all this stuff.
Love the Amiga but there's no way you can get modern day functionality of PC VT4 or Tricaster on the currently available Amiga solutions.
It's evlolved way beyond that era.
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Pyromania wrote:
Again the solution here is to adapt the open source Amiga Video Toaster Flyer software to work with the new VT PCI card.
And would you have as much functionality as the PC version?
It's a cool idea, but I see todays Windows and it's robust OS of available tools as an advantage. Yes, XP and Vista crash, I loathe MS, etc. But modern tools for modern jobs.
Running that on a Sam would throw a Monkey Wrench into my workflow. Now I have to switch between AFter Effects. Maya, Lightwave and 3ds Max running on another PC and bring that content to an Amiga? Via what drive setup? U320 scsi array external box? Esata Raid? Remember I want to continue to work uncompressed...
The benefit of the PC toaster is that you get all your content from all apps into the VT4. WITHOUT switching back and forth. I used to do this with Lightwave on a PC and A VT4000T Flyer setup using Jazz drives. I'm not going back to that mess.
I think it's fun idea for tinkerers and fantics but anyone making a business out of it would not do it.
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I recently had a quick play with Final Cut studio on my friend's Macbook... From what I understand, Video Toaster doesn't even offer 1% of what the £300 Final Cut software can do... And VT doesn't do HD either... I think this is a mute topic :shrug:...
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Exactly bloodline...
How many folks here have actually tried to edit projects on a deadline using modern vs. Amiga VTFlyer setups?
Trust me, once you've used a modern editing setup going back to the Toaster Flyer (even though it was good for the time) is like moving backwards, it's like trying to edit video on a museum relic. I loved my Flyer setup but when I saw a demo of the VT4 or Final Cut and the Matrox RT, heck even I-Movie, I said...this is the future.
Editing on vintage hardware is great for an exercise in Nostalgia and Massocism.
All that being said. VT4000 flyer functionality in an Ipod- Iphone sized device would kick butt. A streaming version would become lenendary... A paradigm shift type product as mentioned way back in the Video Toaster: Revolution video tape.
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I don't think an Amiga Video Toaster Flyer system can replace a modern VT[5] but it could be a valued video input on a VT[5] or TriCaster. TriCaster & Flyer system used together are kind of cool.
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@bloodline
iMovie and Final Cut are cool but they don't have a built in video switcher. Saying the Flyer can't do 1% of what they do is stretching it. SpeedEDIT offers HD editing.
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@KimmoK
Look at your calendar, it's 2009, the Video Toaster has evolved through 3 generations since it last ran in an Amiga. VT5 uses the CPUs in your computer extensively. The SAM is a glorified Mobile Phone, it doesn't have the power to run a VT5 even if the software was there.
But the software isn't there, the APIs necessary don't exist in OS4.1. VT5 is not a solution for Amiga users.
Open Video Editor is, and even in it's infancy it runs circles around the original Video Toaster software. Video Toasters are for TV stiudios, if you are making Youtube videos or other videos which don't involve a live digital signal you are better off with Final Cut.
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We have not had the opportunity to run Open Video Editor but will try it and report back. We are kind of already in video editing overload here, VT[5], TriCaster Pro FX, SpeedEDIT, Final Cut Studio 2 & Amiga Video Toaster Flyer.
:-D
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Pyromania wrote:
@bloodline
iMovie and Final Cut are cool but they don't have a built in video switcher. Saying the Flyer can't do 1% of what they do is stretching it. SpeedEDIT offers HD editing.
Ok, apologies if I've misunderstood... But I actually can't really see what the old VT does in a modern context... It seems to be some kind of advanced genlock with integrated effects software.
I don't know anyone who even uses analogue video any more...
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@bloodline
The software is the key, it is now open source and can be upgraded & ported to MorphOS, AROS & 4.1. Why start over from scratch when you have a blueprint in front of you that is already Amiga code? The ease of use of the interface is still amazing as is the integrated CG, Paint system, FX, ChromaFX & NLE. Not to mention cool 3rd party plug-ins. MorphOS, Amiga OS 4.1 & AROS need video editing software since they have none.
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Wow! Nice debate! And I thought this thread had died. My job is done. :-D
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Pyromania wrote:
@bloodline
The software is the key, it is now open source and can be upgraded & ported to MorphOS, AROS & 4.1. Why start over from scratch when you have a blueprint in front of you that is already Amiga code? The ease of use of the interface is still amazing as is the integrated CG, Paint system, FX, ChromaFX & NLE. Not to mention cool 3rd party plug-ins. MorphOS, Amiga OS 4.1 & AROS need video editing software since they have none.
Very well put, with the open Video Toaster source there is a good foundation to build on.
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Boy I have been on that tread mill before, all of the hoops you have to jump through to get Amiga animations and videos to PC. :roll:
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Pyromania wrote:
@bloodline
The software is the key, it is now open source and can be upgraded & ported to MorphOS, AROS & 4.1. Why start over from scratch when you have a blueprint in front of you that is already Amiga code? The ease of use of the interface is still amazing as is the integrated CG, Paint system, FX, ChromaFX & NLE. Not to mention cool 3rd party plug-ins. MorphOS, Amiga OS 4.1 & AROS need video editing software since they have none.
Is it though? We are talking about software that has been out of production for nearly 15 years... I would imagine starting from scratch or porting an Open Source NLE program would be quicker and yield better results. I'm not trying to be negative here, but I'm honestly not sure what value the old VT software has!
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@Pyromania
Exactly, start with a 21st century video editor and make it more Amiga like. The Amiga Video Toaster is very old, it needs a ton of improvements, it's hard to work with. Starting with Open Video Editor you have something that works with and like current technology.
Some things like games age well, other things like video editors do not.
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I'm not much of a Video guy, but Final Cut studio was amazing to use!
To see the struggle ahead using the old VT code, compare "Logic Pro 8", with "C-Lab's Notator"... There is a program with over 20 years development... The difference between where it is now and where it started is insurmountable!!
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KimmoK wrote:
@persia
You seem to ignore that VT was first on Amigas and it ran very well on 25Mhz Amigas & Z2 & Z3 slots & very little RAM.
But surely it might be too hard to turn WIntel philosophy SW back to Amiga philosophy.
But the new cards have a completely different design. They are designed to be used with high powered wintel computers.
The first cards was designed with Amiga in mind and thus ran fine with very little cpu or memory usage.
I am sure you could get something like that on the sam, but that would mean they would have to make some new toaster hardware and this would never happen as the cost is just too great considering the sam userbase.
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Open Video Editor is, and even in it's infancy it runs circles around the original Video Toaster software. Video Toasters are for TV stiudios, if you are making Youtube videos or other videos which don't involve a live digital signal you are better off with Final Cut.
What about Cinelerra too?
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An interesting turn to the discussion. Yes Amiga Video Toaster ran on Classic Amigas, it actually assisted the AMiga since it didn't really have the power to do the video editing.
Modern Video toaster boards suck CPU like mad. YOu need one or two Quad Core Xeons to make it fly. The Amiga Video Toaster software is not going to make these 2000 dollar boards work in an Classic Amiga (or a SAM or Pegasos II for that matter).
The modern video toaster is a speciality device for working with live video streams.
The fact of the matter is that if you want to go forward we have to leave Classic Amigas behind. You aren't going to be able to write a modern video editor like Final Cut and get it to run on Classic Amigas.
THe old VIdeo Toaster software was a pioneering effort, it went where no software has gone before, but that was 15 years ago, video editing is commonplace and far easier to do. You can't retrofit the old video toaster software to work like modern programs on modern video. You need to start over.
Open Movie editor isn't Final Cut, but it's head and shoulders above Amiga Video Toaster. Port it and make it more Amiga like. Once it's ported then you can build on to it. Maybe give it a new name, Video Pand & SHovel or something...
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We own Final Cut Pro and find the interface difficult to learn and use compared to VT[5], SpeedEDIT, TriCaster & yes the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer. Even iMovie abandoned their old interface and started over with iMovie 08. Guess what? It looks a lot like the Flyer & SpeedEDIT interface. I hope everyone that is dismissing Amiga VT4000 has actually used one. The Amiga VT Flyer's interface is easy to learn and takes about 20 minutes to master. The look and feel of the Flyer has dated well and would be nice for 4.1, MorphOS & AROS. If open source video editors are ported too that's great. Competition drives innovation.
A lightweight speedy video editor based off the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer source code or with it's interface would be welcomed on operating systems that have no video editing software (4.1, MorphOS, AROS). Does it need every whizzbang feature? No, anyone needing the latest and greatest should get a VT[5] or TriCaster.
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Yes the flyer was really easy to teach. Had 2 systems A4000T's. I used to have interns or freelacners just come in and digitize footage all day and trim the footage for me to edit. I was able to teach them everything they needed to know. Did the same with IMovie too.
Adding a timeline to the Flyer that allowed full control of the audio clips would have been great. I never used more than the your Basic Timeline add on. I know there were plugin solutions, never got around to them.
You know a Toaster Flyer 4000, 3 live cameras, VTR or PC with video out, A pc laptop with a analog to DV bridge should be able to switch and stream live video via flash medica encoder? pretty cool...
I'd rather use a Tricaster or VT5 though. But I'd also tinker with an open Video Toaster style setup. My whole thing is, that new Amiga hardware (sam440, etc) is ridiculously priced to the point that only the extreme Amiga hobbyist would care. Yes I am a member of that faternity, but I have my limits.
I think it'd make more sense to port it to linux as we'd be able to run it on ASUS EEPC tiny laptops with a USB video digitizer. Now we're talkin'
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@Crom00
But today things don't need to be digitised. I haven't seen an analogue source in years.
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persia wrote:
@Crom00
But today things don't need to be digitised. I haven't seen an analogue source in years.
Exactly! Last week I bought a 1080p camcorder for £130... It records on SD cards... It is cheap, but the quality is exceptional, especially when compared with the £600 SD-res tape based camcorder my father bought only 4 years ago...
The world of digitizers, analogue video and SD resolution is long since behind us now!
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Here is a quick YouTube upload that was recorded at 720p 60fps on my new ultra cheap camcorder... The framerate was downsampled to 30fps, and the bitrate reduced from 7MBs to 1.5MBs for Youtube... but you can click on the "HD" link to see how much better even this heavily degraded digital stream from an übercheap camera is better than analogue!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c368ISG6hYE&feature=channel_page
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@ persia
The Open Video Toaster source code could be updated and adapted to work with digital sources. A Firewire stack already exists for MorphOS, this should be paired with the Amiga Open VT code.
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@bloodline
Amiga using ToasterFlyer or genlocks or any output to Video, are No longer Analog. they are digital!
And REALLY easy to put on a PC.
Nobody uses Analog Video tape with Amiga anymore. DVD recorders and DV decks is whats used. all output becomes instantly digital when its recorded to DVD or DV. from there you transfer to a Mac via FireWire or to a PC via DVD and rip the file instantly in MPEG2. Then you can edit on the PC or Mac.
I use my Plain A1200 with Genlock and ChromaKey and Capture everything in DV or DVD. Looks Crisp!
and Amiga CAN Do Widescreen 480i at least and possibly 720i
Just put it in 1440x480 or 1440x720 (might require a gfx card)
I do it all the time with SCALA MM300 SuperHires Mode.
then you can get all your stuff in Widescreen.
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Here's a fun program I just acquired
BoinxTV (http://www.boinx.com/boinxtv/overview/)
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Here's an idea. Port the VideoToaster software to AROS. The hardware is a non-issue since it's x86.
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If you're doing professional video you need the ability to capture ANALOG video sources. Especially if you're doing live switching. Even a show like Rachel Ray actually uses "higer end" Pro-sumer video cameras and they switch of those cameras as sources.
Many of us use the ANALOG inputs as there's a latency issue using firewire for a switch so you'd need higher end cameras with SDI.
Betacam SP is still widely used. Like any pro you need many tools to get the job done. To infer that everyone is totally digital is not correct. We DO digitize the video once then from that point on it remains digital as a AVI or Quictime file or back to any of the flavors of Digital tape.
Once I was done with my flyer projects I'd capture it via a G4 mac with Final cut using an addon YC card or just save it out to a mini-DV deck.
All this talk about Amigas and video will have me lug in my A1200 to demo for students who don't understand what interlace flicker is, NTSC or HD to them it's either TV or computer monitor. Once I show them the NTSC flickering workbench screen they'll get the whole scanline NTSC thing. If they're good I'll let them play Super Stardust.