Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: iamaboringperson on September 05, 2003, 05:53:26 AM
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Hi, I'm just curious as to how many Amiga users here(the classic range, not AmigaOne/Pegasos) do not use a graphics card in their Amiga?
Any particular reason as to why not?
Do you plan to use a graphics card later?
What configuration do you have, and have you upgraded your Amiga in other ways but not GFX?
:-)
Just curious to know, how mad people would be if software developers wrote programs that were RTG only! :-)
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I haven't got an RTG card. Yet. Basically money is my biggest issue, especially as The NZ dollar doesn't translate to US$ or Euro very well. And it's a long way to ship things.
My system is in my tagline, but also has a 4xEIDE interface with CD and Zip Drives. I need to get a tower and a mediator first, and probably a better accelerator. I'll get there eventually.
As to RTG-only software, obviously I'd prefer if there was non-RTG support. But I certainly don't expect the rest of the Amiga community to wait for me to catch up.
Mind you, take a program like, say, Genetic Species. It runs quite respectably on my system, but makes me very aware just how awesome it would be if only I had an RTG card.
So non-RTG support for good software might encourage people like me to sell any unnecessary body organs and get me a Voodoo 1200.
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The only graphics card that I use is a Commodore A2320 Amber board. It enables me to hook up my nice ViewSonic 17" Flat-Panel display to my classic Amiga 2000HD. I love the Amiga's graphics just the way they are. When I need true-color, high resolution graphics, I use my powerful Pentium 4 PC. The Amiga no longer has what it takes to produce modern day graphics and sound. Quit dreaming people. Do not get me wrong, I love all Amiga computers and the Amiga 2000HD is my personal favorite. But, my Pentium 4 PC blows the doors off all Amiga computers, including my friend's Amiga 4000 Tower that has been maxed out! Let's face it - a Pentium 4 PC is better then any Amiga when it comes to modern graphics and sound. :-D
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Indeed, I have a bone stock A1200 for the pure and honest purpose of gaming. Why would one want a professional computer for anything? Lord knows it would be a travesty to use an Amiga for anything less HOLY than the art of gaming! Why else would games still be coming out this long after C='s demise? Because The Amiga *IS* gaming, all other platforms are mere shadows of the HOLY ARC of the VideoGame! Not X-Box, PS2, PSX, GameCube, NOTHING! Verily I say unto thee, Amiga is Gaming on high! Blessed is he who runs OCS, for he knows true joy! Shall the AGA be stopped? Nay! For only AGA gives the path unto righteousness! Wherefore art thou using inferior gaming systems? Graphics? HAH! And, HAH! again! For only the Amiga makes the path unto Heaven! Using XBoxes for gaming is a mark of the devil, and Hell is thy destination! Repent before the God of DoubleDensity floppy-based games, for their grinding is surely the sound of the angels' trumpets! Repent NOW, thy heathens! Lest thy soul be devoured by the demonic forces of the pentium-pentigrams!!!!! :-D
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Come on guys...
I'm not wanting to know the pro's/con's of graphics card ownership, nor do I care about other computer platforms, nor scan doublers.
I simply want to know who is sticking to using plain old Amiga custom chip set graphics, and no real RTG.
:-)
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@iamaboringperson
Should thee not have all? The path of enlightenment is difficult and laiden heavy with danger! Yet, thy spirit shall be cleansed by the ownership, nay adoption, of Amigas that carry both graphics tablets of visual stimulous and those with the God-given graphics angels? Verily, to be holy, thy must obtain many of each; lest, they flock be in danger of dying! Heed the words of above, as they comb the thrift stores! For the light of truth shall shine upon the holiest of holies, the professional Amiga2000! :-D
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Basically what I want to know is, is it still worth allocating graphics data in chip mem, and having non cybergraphics.library code, or should I still support the oldies?
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@Targhan
I think you would enjoy this little QT video:
http://webdev.o1.com/rvb/movies/switch/RvB_switch.mov (http://webdev.o1.com/rvb/movies/switch/RvB_switch.mov)
:-D :-D
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@ boring
I don't use graphics cards on my Amigas, but part of the reason for this is that I have only got back into the Amiga again recently. I hope to get a mediator and graphics card soon though.
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I have several machines without gfxcard but the 4 I mainly use all have either gfxcard or at least a scandoubler. :-D
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> Basically what I want to know is, is it still
> worth allocating graphics data in chip mem, and
> having non cybergraphics.library code, or
> should I still support the oldies?
What sort of software are you writing? Since Cybergraphics and Picasso96 patch graphics.library (?), I didn't realize you had to make a conscious choice.
I'm using a towered 1200 with 040, OS3.9, and AGA, and don't plan to use a graphics card until I move to OS4. Why? Well, it's a little silly to start buying lots of hardware now, eh? ;-) In the past I avoided graphics cards because of the 1200's lack of slots, the expense and quirkiness of some the hardware, the lack of compatibility with lots of old (standard?) software, and the fact that graphics cards on Amigas are still something of a hack.
If you're writing a game, I'm not a big gamer and likely wouldn't look at it until after OS4 anyway. Otherwise, it is really so hard to support the native chipsets?
Todd
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2 of my 7 Amigas have graphics cards (the 4000 has a Voodoo 3, and the 1500 has a CV64/3D), although I don't use the CV64/3D as Zorro II is faaaaaar tooooooooo slooooooooow. The other Amigas don't get used for much; there isn't enough room to set them ALL up in my little flat.
@DoomMaster: The joke is getting old, you can stop trolling now.
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My A1200 doesn't have RTG for the same reason as Cyberus - and I'm not willing to spend loads of money on the A1200 when I'll hopefully be getting myself an A1 later :-)
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I'm in the same position (kind of) as xyth. No currency conversion problems, but a basic lack of currency in the first place ;-)
Also, like others, my next big target (someway, somehow) is an A1, so at this stage I have even less motivation to get a gfx card for my machine
Stimpy
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A1200,Power Tower, 030/40+882, 2+32 Mb, 4 Gb HD, 48x16x50x CD Rewriter, etc. etc.
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While its great you guys are getting an AmigaONE, i do think its a great shame you guys never experienced the thrill of putting a graphics card in your classic Amiga for the first time.
Remember when you first put a hard disk in an Amiga back when they were a "luxury" item, and how awesome that was? Well, multiply that by 100 and you're nearly there ;-)
Going from 030/25+AGA to 030/25+CV/64 3D was a *MUCH* bigger and better leap for me than going from 030/25+CV/64 3D to 060/50+CV64/3D.
Oh well. I suppose the leap to AmigaONE+OS4 will be even more exciting for you guys than it will be for us graphics card users... ;-)
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@xeron:
Agreed.
I went from 020-14 to 040-25 (great improvement) to 040-40 (noticeable) and then from AGA to Voodoo3. THEN I saw what it was all about. Wow. Workbench in 1600x1200 24bit on a 68040 is actually useable. Web browser suddenly looked ok. Images could be viewed in multiview and still look EXCELLENT. Etc ad nauseam.
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My Amiga (http://www.legolas.com/amiga/myamiga.html)
I came into using my Amiga seriously a bit too late for me. My PC already did most of what I wanted to do, and I didn't have a bottomless wallet. :-)
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Since upgrades are rediculously expensive, I am among those without an RTG card of any kind. So I would have to vote on support for at least AGA in your apps.
[RANT]
On a side note, it seems silly to be lacking cheap hardware out there... After all, using a PLD to translate between the Amiga and whatever chip a board needs is a pretty easy thing. Zorro to PLD to SCSI chip... BAM! New SCSI controller. Zorro to PLD to networking chip... BAM! New 10/100 NIC. Hell, even the PCI boards can be made dirt cheap with a PLD and one of QuickLogic's chips.
The hardest part is writing the driver!
[/RANT]
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I have one A1200T with a CV64/3D and one A1200D with just plain AGA.
Actually, I like the custom chips. Since I'm a demo fanatic I like being able to start demos from the workbench/shell without having to hook up an extra monitor to my computer. That's about the only reason. Oh yeah, and AMOSPro isn't promotable :-)
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I second Stimpzilla. It is too expensive and complicated to add a graphics card to an A1200, especially when I plan on getting an amigaOne anyway.
Chris
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A3000 number 1. Retina BLT ZIII
A3000 number 2. no RTG
VT2000, Toaster board but no RTG
My other 4 A2000's no RTG
6 x A500's no RTG
3 x A1000's no RTG :-D
I just sold my CD32 and an A1000, both mint and boxed neither had RTG. :-P
:-)
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You're forgetting that all the good chips out there are PCI to whatever, so you would need a Zorro to PCI PLD, and last time I checked this was called a Mediator.
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My A1200 tower still uses AGA.
No gfx card as adding one would cost more than my pegasos mobo did. Too dear.
Anyway, AGA works ok for what I use my A1200 for.
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Well, since returning from home I now have 2 A1200's :-D. One is fully towered and has a BVision card, the other is a keyboard wedge with just the custom chips.
I gotta say, I love em' both...
@Xeron
I agreee totally - The wow factor of fitting the BVision was easily as big as the PPC card.
I reckon, however, my favourite upgrade was my first accelerator card :
Stock 2MB (chip only) A1200 -> Apollo 1240 (full 040@25MHz) + 16Mb fast
After fiddling with some settings (forcing various pointers / libraries into fast ram) and getting some 040 optimised libraries, the speed increase was awesome.
I ended up getting a BlizzPPC later, but should have gone for the 060 version (was too damn broke at the time). Ah well...
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I'm an AGA freak, too :)
Varthall
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At work I have 4 Amigas with Toasters and one Flyer. My A4000T has PPC. Getting non-X86 hardware or software from my employer is now almost impossible. (Heck, they're afraid I'll duel boot one of the network machines with Linux.)
I'd love to have a graphics card or two, but it ain't going to happen unless I win the Lottery.
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Well I WAS going to get a graphics card, but
with the Peg2 around the corner I decided to
hold off. I may yet get one, but I'm not sure
if I want to continue upgrading my 1200D+060
(so close), or start over with a 4000. I have
a feeling that after I get the Peg, the 1200
will become mainly a demo machine, hence a gfx
card won't be necessary (but I'd still love to have a setup capable of playing Planet Potion;).
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I don't have any RTG in any of my amigas, have been looking for one over the years but never found any cheap enough. Now I have dropped all the plans of a gfxcard since I'm planning to buy a peg sometime soon.
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@Erwin-K:
Heh, I'm at work, posting from Opera in Debian Linux, I use OpenOffice for work documents, and all my software/hardware so far has been created with Linux programs.
Just swapped my 80G harddrive for a 40G that doesn't make as much noise, haven't gotten around to reinstalling XP yet. I won't bother until I find some cool game that doesn't run under Linux again (only thing I've used XP for the last year is games). Noone cares what I use, as long as I do the WORK I should. Isn't that great? ;-)
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Hi iamaboringperson,
Count me in for a gfx-less A1200 owner :-)
I only have a hardware for the screen.....scandoubler and flickerfixer or so?
Some hardware-stuff for my modem.
A Blizzard040/40 with SCSI2 and a lot of HD's on it :-) (ofcourse also a CD-ROM and CD-Writer)
@targhan
You scare me friend :-D
What's up, what is the last thing you ate before you wrote your comments? :-D:-D
@fx
Good luck with your Peg :-)
Spidey
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I have 2 desktop Amiga 1200's with AGA graphics, no RTG. When they came out with the PPC/Bvision I waited to see if they would make just a 060 w/Bvision but they never did. I never wanted my Amiga's in a tower but would have purchased a graphics upgrade had one been made to suit my wants.
So, AGA all the way! :-P
Now - Just waiting for a Mobo that fits my desires - maybe AmigaOne ITX formfactor? :-D
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by xeron on 2003/9/5 10:36:14
2 of my 7 Amigas have graphics cards (the 4000 has a Voodoo 3, and the 1500 has a CV64/3D), although I don't use the CV64/3D as Zorro II is faaaaaar tooooooooo slooooooooow. The other Amigas don't get used for much; there isn't enough room to set them ALL up in my little flat.
@DoomMaster: The joke is getting old, you can stop trolling now.
nooo, xeron . . please . .he is a so funny boy!
Thanx to him, now i'm still understand in deep, what is a troll :-)
Let me still enjoy a little bit . ..please!
Ciao
-edit- erm . .sorry . .fro the thread, i've both on the same machine.
I've an OS3.9 boot partition with CV64 and P96 and another boot partition, with OS 3.1 and AGA for video and gaming pouropses.. . ####! pourposes.
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Pentium 4 PC is better then any Amiga
And my amd athlon xp is faster than both . :-)
Back to the question my a4000 has no rtg at the moment because it is dodgy until its sorted its aga only. My a500,s cdtv and a1000 and one a1200 do not use graphics cards only 2 a1200,s are and will be using them :-)
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Ok guys, please stop the genitalia comparison. "Joking" or not.
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Ok guys, please stop the genitalia comparison. "Joking" or not.
What comparison?
My cock is far far bigger than yours in any case :-P
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I'm using an A1200 and no bus expander. I must admit that I've been using my PC more than my Amiga lately but I won't be putting money into Amiga until AmigaOS 4 comes out. It should be able to take greatest advantage of the newer GFX cards and have all the custom chip dependancies removed.
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@amigaguy
:lol: That was a good video! LOL!
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count me as one non-gfx owner... I use my A1200 rarely since I have Amithlon that's far more faster than the 030/50 and those small 16MB on the A1200 I have... and money are a big issue for me :)
And by the way I agree with who says that a P4/AMDXP is faster than any Amiga ...
Even if I 'only' have a P3 at 550MHz :)
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My Amiga 4000 uses the Picasso IV with rev A chipset. Can't complain. To bad Villagetronics don't make Amiga RTG cards anymore, they made good boards.
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@iamaborringperson:
You should really suggest that the ao staff should make polls out of some of your forum subjects. ;-)
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I guess after my silly spell is over, I can answer truthfully. I have all of the above, and enjoy the different systems for different reasons.
I have two a1200's. One is fairly stock, 030/32M, and AGA on an old C=1084. Nothing beats an original Amiga for those original Amiga games. I also have an old A500 that is occationally used for gaming. My second A1200, is in an infinitiv tower, has a mediator and a Voodoo3. I used it for most of my daily tasks a few years back with it's little 040.
A little over a year ago, I picked up Amithlon. Sometime during the past year I picked up AmigaForever 5.x. Now, I have a Pegasos with MorphOS as my "main" system.
I wonder if there is a rehab for those of us who've taken this whole "Amiga thing" a bit too far? :-P
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@Targhan
I wonder if there is a rehab for those of us who've taken this whole "Amiga thing" a bit too far? :-P
Too far??? Didn't know there was a limit! :-D
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I have been a user of Commodore computers since 1982 -- I have C64 Cartridges, Cassettes, and 5¼" Disks still occupying drawer space!
My first Amiga, an A500 with KS1.2, cost over $900AUD and the only software bundled with that was WB1.2! The A2000, at $2995AUD, was out of my financial reach in 1988.
About '90 I was able to purchase my present A2000HD at a World of Commodore section which occupied two rooms at the Brisbane Computer Show. The price had been dropped to about $1499AUD and I fairly jumped at THIS opportunity.
In mid-'91, I travelled 1000km to attend World of Commodore in Sydney. This was an all-Commodore weekend event that had stands which included local CBM dealers, CBM-Australia, GVP products, OpalVision, Software stands, Amiga Format (UK), and others. There were seminars also.
I went back to Brisbane with a GVP G-Force 030/40/4 accellerator, the WB2.05 Install, various software, a Pen-mouse (which turned out to be bloody useless), and an A600HD with a 30Mb Hard Drive!
NOW I had an 030 A2000 with Hard Drive, 4Mb FAST & WB1.3 & WB2.05 -- an A600HD -- and an A500. I had a Hand Scanner which would NOT install to Hard Drive and was used with the A500. I had my second video-framegrabber (VidiAmiga+VidiRGB) which was attached to the A2000's parallel-port via a switchbox. I used a SVHS Camcorder for colour with the framegrabber while the Hand Scanner dealt with B&W.
When I acquired my second Hand Scanner, which was HDD installable, I sold-off the A500 along with the first Hand Scanner.
In 1992(?) the A1200 was released and I bought an A1200HD (40Mb HDD) for $1400AUD in a strange local pricing-deal in which I traded-in a manual typewritter! Not long after that, the A4000/030 was announced!!!
Graphics Cards were fairly coming along in the Amiga scene. I had my eye on a 32bit Card from GVP which could be fitted in my A2000 - the awesome Spectrum 110/24 (http://www.amiga-hardware.com/spectrum110.html)!
RAM can be expanded up to 8MB; allowing 1600 x 1280 at 24bit and 80Hz. It has a pixel clock of 110Mhz.
THIS was a very expensive GFX Card!
But this was not to be for, when I had saved some cash and phoned a US dealer, I found that this Card was no longer sold! I made a quick (on-phone) switch to the Picasso II (http://www.amiga-hardware.com/picassoii.html).
I decided to:
° Expand the CHIP RAM to 2Mb.
° Expand FAST RAM to 8Mb.
° Buy a Samsung SyncMaster 15GLi (which cost near $1000AUD)
When I put it ALL togather I think that OS3.1 was included at THAT time. THIS A2000 became quite different. I'm STILL using the Picasso II and Samsung monitor, although the A2000 is 060 and 64Mb presently. I use a HP ScanJet, TVPaint, and ImageFX.
WB from 2001 (http://home.iprimus.com.au/vortexau/images2/REQ_SCN.jpg)
Screen sizes (http://home.iprimus.com.au/vortexau/images2/ScnModes.jpg)
Flatbed, SCSI-tower and A2000 (http://home.iprimus.com.au/vortexau/images5/SCSItower.jpg)
The Picasso II turned out to be a good choise as that GVP Spectrum 110/24 remained locked to the older EGS display standard. I've not found the need to buy a WinTel system. . . . . . . just waiting now for the AmigaOneG4XE, and OS4!
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IamAboringPerson: I hope you read this:
the amount of people you see in here that don't have graphics cards is not accurate. Infact probably most of the people who are replying here have gfx cards. but there are more Amiga users without them who are not able to get on here and speak.
I really recommend that you support from ECS and up to AGA. If you are making some sort of software, take the route of Psygnosis....though at the time many Amigas had more than 1 meg of Ram, Psygnosis made a majority of their games to require only 512k....why? because one thing you know for sure is that Every single Amiga user has at least 512k so you know your game will work on every Amiga. And you will have a bigger audience to sell your product to. It is extremely important that you support most Amigas because there aren't many of us out there so you need to reach as many Amigans as possible, to make the most income possible.
Let me tell you, I still use ECS and AGA, and I love it to death, I have excellent, and I mean Excellent software that runs on ECS even some that still run on the A1000. The reason I dont Use gfx cards is because the Amiga was special in that it had direct Video output in NTSC, the only way I would use Gfx cards in My Amiga is if someone made a gfx card that could dispay 16 million colors in at least 800 x 600 and output it in flickerless NTSC S-Video or even HDTV...and not on a stupid VGA monitor which gives me the feeling I am using a PC. I hate VGA with a Passion, and to me its not Amiga like.....in that case I would rather get A full blown PC wich has ten times better Gfx cards than Amigas currently. It seems these days like we are trying to be like a PC copying PCI cards and USB and all that trash wich just gives for less compatibility and more unsatble OS like Windows will always be.........
What are the only computers in the world that never crash??? Game consoles! Playstation, DreamCast, N64, GameCube..................why? because they don't have 20 different companies making Gfx cards for them so that programs have to figure out what kind of card you got in particular a certain user has. I believe in Standards. Any new Amigas released should come standard with One and Only one Chipset that is totally up to date but can be upgraded But only by the Parent company.....that way all products will always work for that machine. I am all for expandability.....but only for things like Video Toaster, DSS8+, Imapct Vision 24, Amiga LIVE!, Scala Echo, and all these type of cool gadgets..............bt as far as Sound Cards and RTG? no way jose.....16million colors and High resolutions should be standard in new Amigas but Out Put in High Definition TeleVision..............This is what an Amiga is New High quality Arcade games in Dolby Surround, A new Super Video Toaster............Video, Video, Video, otherwise if Amiga becomes like a PC with PCI slots....non standard Joysticks (only one stupid port) than why dontI just Buy a PC with Windows XP? I can emulate an Amiga on there nicely....and in the future I will be able to emulate an AmigaONE!!! so why waste my money? why? Amiga need to get on their Butts and open their eyes...........Amigas are different and thats why we use them! keep them different and don't give in to the PC and Mac sillyness, We have got it right the first time with a custom chipset........lets keep it that way ( of course with a totally new custom chipset thats upgradable)
If I ever do get a Gfx card, it is soley because I love my Amiga and would rather generate 16 Million color animations and Pictures on my Amiga than a PC........be even so, I would be doing this just to convert them back to AGA and ECS!
nuff said!