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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: jj on December 15, 2008, 12:52:56 PM
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Nokia N97 (http://2009.nseries.com/specs.aspx)
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Very nice looking phone. I'm still hoping a US carrier will pick it (or any newer Nokia smart phone) up. We never even got the N95 at a subsidized price.
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We are lucky in the UK all phones are subsidised by the network operaters. Some of the more expensive ones like the N95 initally had to have high tarrifs, but that doesnt last long.
The only phone i know that doesnt is the Iphone, but its not a phone I would want anyway.
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I know I want that too, but that phone has one major turn away for me. It has a {bleep}y S60 OS :( I was hoping for maemo linux.
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JJ wrote:
We are lucky in the UK all phones are subsidised by the network operaters. Some of the more expensive ones like the N95 initally had to have high tarrifs, but that doesnt last long.
The only phone i know that doesnt is the Iphone, but its not a phone I would want anyway.
The iPhone is subsidized now :-)
The only thing nice about the N97 is the video recording and 32gig flashmem, I can't think of any other feature I like from the N97...
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Yeah, N95 here is only available as an unlocked phone. Was about $800 a few years back, but the N95-8GB is now ~$450. (Too much for 2-3 year old tech unfortunately, even though you don't need a contract.)
We do get good subsidized deals on iPhone, Windows Mobile and Blackberry handsets, but AFAIK there's only a single S60 phone available from a US carrier. Sad. :cry:
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bah! humbug! blasted commercialism hrmpf! (http://www.amiga.org/images/subject/icon13.gif)
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@ bloodline
I kinda like the idea of the slide out keyboard. The decent camera, and as you said the video.
As much as you are an IPhone fan, you might have guessed from this and previous conversations we have had, i am a Nokia fan.
In my opnion there is nothing an Iphone can do or has that I want or need. That might chance when they catch up to the rest of the smartphone market.
Not sure if that will happen though, the Iphones market share is laughable compared to most.
If nokia thought a handset would only sell as many as the Iphone has I doubt they would bother to make it.
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bloodline wrote:
The iPhone is subsidized now :-)
Lucky you. For the US they are still the same price (since the 3G was released*), still the same data rates ($10 more than the original iPhone), and still the 2 year prison sentence. In short, Apple's price fixing sucks.
* Oh wait, Walmart will be carrying a 4GB iPhone for $99. :crazy:
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Price fixing ahoy, its the apple way. I hate the way they decided would only use one phone operater also. Though again hopefully this will change.
This was another major reason not t o get one. Beeen with my operator for years and after using all the other networks I dont want to change.
@ boodline, so you can get the iphone free now ?
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So you guys would rather continuously pay through the nose in the way of phone bills, instead of just once when you buy the phone?
I prefer cheap calls and free competition between phone salesmen. It's not like any phone gets sold at RRP for more than a few months around here. They're all quite quickly discounted to close to the wholesale price.
Also: no operator crippled phones. If the feature is listed on the vendor's site, it will be available in the menus.
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@JJ
RE: Provider... Me too. Unfortunately, AT&T coverage in my area is bad. For example, enter 90277 as the zip code on http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/. Now south about an inch. Guess where I live? :lol: (I do work to the north, but I need coverage at home.)
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JJ wrote:
@ bloodline
I kinda like the idea of the slide out keyboard. The decent camera, and as you said the video.
Well I can't argue with that, if you want a physical keyboard then the iPhone simply won't do, full stop.
As much as you are an IPhone fan, you might have guessed from this and previous conversations we have had, i am a Nokia fan.
All my previous phones were nokia, I even still have my 7110 :-)
But I'm now taken with the iPhone, it's great... Only now a year after the iPhone have nokia brought out a device that is comparable ;-)
In my opnion there is nothing an Iphone can do or has that I want or need. That might chance when they catch up to the rest of the smartphone market.
I think featurewise all smartphones offer much the same, the iPhone just has a really nice interface and a great App store :-)
Not sure if that will happen though, the Iphones market share is laughable compared to most.
If nokia thought a handset would only sell as many as the Iphone has I doubt they would bother to make it.
Well, keep an eye on the Market, nokia's bread and butter is the lowcost high volume Market... That is the one the analysts are predicting to down turn... The smartphone Market looks to grow... Thus nokia producing the N97 to match the iPhone feature set.
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JJ wrote:
@ boodline, so you can get the iphone free now ?
Yeah, you have been able to since the release of the 3G in the summer :-)
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i want an updated communicator. but i guess that market it now serviced by netbooks with 3G dongles...
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argh, mobile SW sucks
Unbelieveable how slow and buggy SW those mobile guys do...
(I use N73 as my main phone)
I would prefer a enchanced minimig on my back pocket & VoIP over GPRS/WLAN.
btw. Is there any mobile phone that boots faster than AOS4/MOS2 PPCAmiga? It takes about 10 seconds for the N73 just to switch off the "screenblanker".
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bloodline wrote:
Well, keep an eye on the Market, nokia's bread and butter is the lowcost high volume Market... That is the one the analysts are predicting to down turn... The smartphone Market looks to grow...
I doubt it. I don't think people with economic hardship will rush out to buy any expensive new phone/gadget. Apple still has a lot of ground to cover to catch up to Nokia's ~39% market share.
Thus nokia producing the N97 to match the iPhone feature set.
The N95 8G, and N96 matched the iPhone feature set quite well. The N97 flat out overruns it.
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darksun9210 wrote:
i want an updated communicator.
What's wrong with the E90?
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adolescent wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Well, keep an eye on the Market, nokia's bread and butter is the lowcost high volume Market... That is the one the analysts are predicting to down turn... The smartphone Market looks to grow...
I doubt it. I don't think people with economic hardship will rush out to buy any expensive new phone/gadget. Apple still has a lot of ground to cover to catch up to Nokia's ~39% market share.
Who knows... but the thinking is that people who are happy with their low cost high volume mobile phone, are less likely to upgrade... but theose that were thinking about upgrading, are now looking for a value add... i.e. Mobile + Mp3/Video player... the very market which modern smart phones (and especially the iPhone, where Apple are now running scared that mp3 player have reached saturation point) are targeting.
Thus nokia producing the N97 to match the iPhone feature set.
The N95 8G, and N96 matched the iPhone feature set quite well. The N97 flat out overruns it.
THat's just ignorance. The N95 was outclassed by the newer iPhone... the N96 was nothing but a refresh of the N95... the N97 is Nokia's first attempt to actually match the iPhone feature set one for one.
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Do you have any percentage of apple and need to show to the world the wonderfulls of apple products?
I dont understand how a ipod touch with a bad phone together is the example to follow, sorry.
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kickstart wrote:
Do you have any percentage of apple and need to show to the world the wonderfulls of apple products?
Nope, I just get annoyed when people talk crap. The iPhone is far from perfect, but it is also far more innovative than anything Nokia has produced.
I dont understand how a ipod touch with a bad phone together is the example to follow, sorry.
That is why you live in a little house in Finland and Steve Jobs live in a huge mansion in California on top of piles of money surrounded by beautiful women.... ;-)
Seriously though, The iPhone isn't a tool like the E90... it's a mobile lifestyle platform... The platform itself is very much a standard computing environment, mobile internet and voice, but with a revolutionary interface, and access to VERY innovative applications (which come about due to it's innovative interface, my Win Mobile device just couldn't compete)... plus, it is a great iPod.
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bloodline wrote:
THat's just ignorance. The N95 was outclassed by the newer iPhone... the N96 was nothing but a refresh of the N95... the N97 is Nokia's first attempt to actually match the iPhone feature set one for one.
Right in with the Apple fanboy insults. I'll play though. Please explain what features the iPhone have that "outclass" even the N95 8GB. Certainly not the camera, GPS/navigation, battery life (equally bad on both really), music/video support, and of course the actual phone/quality/reception. Not to mention lacking "features" like tethering, stereo Bluetooth/A2DP, voice command, etc.
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bloodline wrote:
my Win Mobile device just couldn't compete)...
Just for reference, what Windows Mobile device did you have?
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The iPhone isn't a tool like the E90... it's a mobile lifestyle platform...
:lol:
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@CaptChaos
True. The iPhone is NOT a tool, but some iPhone owners are. :lol:
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Another iPhone user here. Yes I also use Macs over PCs. I love Apple products but wouldn't call myself a rabid fan-boy. I'm only rabid over my C128D!
I admit that Nokia looks nice spec-wise, but I'm not a big fan of the slide out keyboard thingy. Plus I've used Windows mobile devices as well and really didn't care much for them. Not saying the alternatives are crap but just not for me.
When it comes to phones. I like things simple and I like them to work without any fuss and that's why I like the iPhone. I am waiting for the 32GB one to come out so I can finally ditch my iPod and only have to carry one item.
I agree they(Apple) need to lose the single-provider nonsense though.
EDIT: For Clarity as I was on the claret when I typed it earlier.
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@Chubbyrain
Everybody likes different things. I think we all get that. I'm personally waiting for the "next" Android phone before I spring for the G1. Like you the keyboards on these things kind of turn me off (that and the G1 is not so petite). I would consider a Nokia N9x if the US carriers picked one up. I'm not paying $800 for any phone, tool, digital mobile lifestyle, etc.
But, just a note that the N97 runs Symbian, not Windows Mobile.
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That is why you live in a little house in Finland and Steve Jobs live in a huge mansion in California on top of piles of money surrounded by beautiful women.... ;-)
Well... i dont care about steve jobs but i prefer finland than california (for sure) but... steve jobs surrounded by beautiful women? huh? maybe surrounded by mens with apple gay style.
And the other things about a "lifestyle" i want a phone or other hardware for usability, fun or whatever but not just for a "lifestyle".
PD: Dont take it serious im just kidding with your god.
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Chubbyrain wrote:
I admit that Nokia looks nice spec-wise, but I'm not a big fan of the slide out keyboard thingy. Plus I've used Windows mobile and really didn't care much for it. Not saying it's crap but just not for me.
So what does Windows Mobile have to do with Nokia phones?
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"So what does Windows Mobile have to do with Nokia phones?"
It was a response to an earlier post regarding Windows Mobile devices. I know Nokia's run a different system. I have tried them. I'll stick with the iPhone for now. Thanks.
Unlike some people, I do give a fair try of things before I go bashing them. Actually on the subject of bashing, the Acorn Archimedes was a much better machine than the Amiga :-D Now have at it!
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:) Well I'm not a Apple hater. In fact I would like to own an iPhone, but currently I have no need for one, because my N95 still does the job. Main thing I hate about my phone is the oh so buggy S60 OS. That is also wy I'm sceptic about N97. It would have been an instant buy for me if it had Maemo linux running, but I guess there is still work to be done on it.
Otherwise the phone has pretty much the feature set I want.
qwerty keypad
5MP camera
GPS
Touchscreen
3G
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Chubbyrain wrote:
I admit that Nokia looks nice spec-wise, but I'm not a big fan of the slide out keyboard thingy. Plus I've used Windows mobile devices as well and really didn't care much for them. Not saying the alternatives are crap but just not for me.
Umm.. your wording leads us to believe you were talking about the Nokia, and that you didn't know that it was running Symbian not Windows Mobile.
You can see where the confusion came from (i.e. you), so don't get snippy about it.
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Well, keep an eye on the Market, nokia's bread and butter is the lowcost high volume Market... That is the one the analysts are predicting to down turn... The smartphone Market looks to grow... Thus nokia producing the N97 to match the iPhone feature set.
The only smartphone market where Symbian doesn't and hasn't lead by a long shot is the US smartphone market.
The rest of the world, it's #1.
Apple has a lot of units to ship before it starts taking anything over.
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I am not the one 'getting snippy' (as you put it) here. In fact I'm trying to keep it in good humour. Sorry if that doesn't come across as well as I hoped.
Some people need to lighten up a little.
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What got me about the Iphone was they released a 3G version to much fanfare. God what complete idiot didnt think people would want 3G in the first place. I have had a 3G phone for 5 years. I live in Wales, hardly the most upcoming place in the world. I live in a small mining village and we have got 3.5G.
All I am saying is Iphones now have 3G. Next will be a new must by version which actually has a decent camerea and does video. Seen it all before will apple. Its just a way to make people keep buying new hardware, hardware thats all ready way out of date.
I mean the Ipod is not the best MP3 player and never has been. Style over content. The interface until recently was liscenced off creative, which incidently do make the best Mp3 players
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I only wanted to show people the new N97, didnt think it would start this rabid fanboi and hater convo.
I neither love or hate Apple. I do not stick top one brand for anything.
I do my research on products and buy what I feel bvest suits my needs based on research.
Its why I own and xbox 360, a sony tell, a creative mp3 player, a nokia phone, a PC and lots of amiga bits.
Plus lots of sega and nintendo retor consoles. God even bouight a PS2 not so long ago. Though wont be buying a PS3.
For all peoples microsoft hating the 360 is by the best console experience ever, and the online stuff is just right, especially since dashboard update
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Interesting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7784084.stm)
And factually wrong. The N95 has an accerlated 3D gpu :-)
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JJ wrote:
Interesting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7784084.stm)
And factually wrong. The N95 has an accerlated 3D gpu :-)
The N95 does have a 3D GPU... In fact most mobile devices do! Since they all use pretty much the same ARM PowerVR chipset, but Windows Mobile totally lacks any support for it, and Software written for symbian can't rely on 3D support since the OS runs on devices that don't have 3D hardware... A developer for OSX knows that the 3D API will be present and can be used. Very few mobile devices have the GFX software support of the iPhone...
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Amen to the 360. Sorry PS3 fans. Microsoft has you flat out beaten when it comes to online multiplay. The only thing that sold me a PS3 was as a cheap Blu-Ray player.
I adore my iPhone, but I know it still isn't what it could be. There is no movie capture, no cut & paste (argh!) and you cannot send snapshots to non iphones unless they receive email. But in terms of user experience, it's the easiest and most pleasant phone interface I have ever used. It's also (in my opinion) the best looking phone as well.
Thanks for sharing the info on the new phone. As much as I am happy with my choice. It's not to say I wouldn't choose something else in the future. I am a fan of Apple products but I haven't sold my soul to them ;) Back 'in the day' I did sell my Amiga 500 to go buy an Acorn Archimedes!
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adolescent wrote:
@CaptChaos
True. The iPhone is NOT a tool, but some iPhone owners are. :lol:
LOL
Nokias are {bleep}ing {bleep}e anyway. Sony Ericsson W810i is the best phone i ever had.
I upgraded to the W910i and regretted it, big time.
Would never touch a Nokia these days. Their old phones were built like brick {bleep}houses, but their newer ones from the last few years are a bit of a joke. ALWAYS going wrong.
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Anyone who says they dont like the PS3 is just jealous cos they don`t have one or can`t afford one.
I love mine, use it mostly as a media set-top-box-type-thing.
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Could have bought one. But the media centre capabilties and intergrations with PCs and media centres wastes the ps3.
The online functionality is much better than ps3.
The gamebase for the 360 is much better.
Blue-ray player, no need for one until blue ray dics come down in price.
Much rather have a 360 and buy a cheap blue ray drive for my pc.
I wouldnt be surprised if microsoft released a blueray player for the 360
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Looks cool. Unfortunately due to where my family is we're stuck with Verizon, and they don't do cool phones like that. :( I was interested in their cut-down version of the HTC Touch Pro, but they require to sign up for data plan minimum $30/month for any smart phone. :( :( :( It freakin has Wifi in it, I don't need the freakin data plan... I don't know how phone companies operate outside of USA, but here I feel like they just want to rip me off and so I keep my old crappy getting senile Razr.
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JJ wrote:
Could have bought one. But the media centre capabilties and intergrations with PCs and media centres wastes the ps3.
The online functionality is much better than ps3.
What do you mean? I used to have an old ugly PeeCee connected to my TV in the living room for streaming music and films from my main PeeCee, and going on the internet.
I did away with all that when I got the PS3.
I never even knew the PS3 could do have the stuff it can untill I got it and started messing about.
Sony release updates for firmware all the time - more codecs, features etc.
Imagine having to PAY to use the Xbox Live :lol: :lol: :lol:
When Sega started charging people for using Dreamarena, that was the end of the Dreamcast for me.
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Yes you have to play to play online games not for everything else.
xbox360 outselling ps3 in japan of all places at the moment.
I would be surprised if sony win this console war in the shortterm. They are still making ps2 games so alot os people not switching.
Anyway you prefer the ps3 i prefer 360. all personel choices. neither of us is wwrong or right.
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Wide Screen? Oh I would love this. Been looking at the HTC Fuze for a purchase next year. Widescreen would be awsome though as I watch a lot of movies on my phone.
What OS does this use? Man I hate to say it, as much as I dislike MS, but I don't know if I can get away from Windows Mobile 6.x
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bloodline wrote:
The N95 does have a 3D GPU... In fact most mobile devices do! Since they all use pretty much the same ARM PowerVR chipset, but Windows Mobile totally lacks any support for it, and Software written for symbian can't rely on 3D support since the OS runs on devices that don't have 3D hardware...
Wrong on both counts. :roll:
Most/all current Windows Mobile devices have hardware GPU support (ex. Touch Diamond). Qualcomm and HTC didn't get drivers out until earlier this year, but as a result they are now back ported and/or hacked onto older models with the same chipset (ex. Kaiser, Polaris, Nike).
S60 has had hardware 3d support for years (since S60 2nd Edition, Feature Pack 2).
A developer for OSX knows that the 3D API will be present and can be used. Very few mobile devices have the GFX software support of the iPhone...
ANY developer targeting ANY platform should know what the platform is capable of. For instance, if you develop a game for the iPod Touch 2nd Generation, you should know that it has a much faster CPU and GPU than the iPhone 3G, iPhone, or iPod Touch and design as such.
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@AmigaHeritic
It runs S60 5th Edition, not Windows Mobile.
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adolescent wrote:
@AmigaHeritic
It runs S60 5th Edition, not Windows Mobile.
Mmm... Well, I'm sure it works with www.orb.com (http://www.orb.com) so that would be the main thing for me. And widescreen + orb.com would be awsome. Guess I'll have to see when it comes to the U.S. and what price.
The VGA screen on the HTC Fuze is so nice. It's reminds of a eBook reader in terms of pure smoothness and how easy on the eyes it is, but of course it's full color. Phone are getting so much better.
I'm sure this phones screen is similar quality being such a hi-resolution and small area.
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adolescent wrote:
bloodline wrote:
The N95 does have a 3D GPU... In fact most mobile devices do! Since they all use pretty much the same ARM PowerVR chipset, but Windows Mobile totally lacks any support for it, and Software written for symbian can't rely on 3D support since the OS runs on devices that don't have 3D hardware...
Wrong on both counts. :roll:
Ok, you say this then you say...
Most/all current Windows Mobile devices have hardware GPU support (ex. Touch Diamond). Qualcomm and HTC didn't get drivers out until earlier this year, but as a result they are now back ported and/or hacked onto older models with the same chipset (ex. Kaiser, Polaris, Nike).
Yes, that's right Windows Mobile lacks any official 3D support... I've already said that most mobile devices now come with 3D hardware...
S60 has had hardware 3d support for years (since S60 2nd Edition, Feature Pack 2).
I've already said this... Symbian has support for 3D in software, i.e. OpenGL ES 1.0... But Symbian also runs on devices that don't have 3D hardware... Therefore 3D hardware is not required to make Symbian work... OSX on the other hand does require 3D hardware.
A developer for OSX knows that the 3D API will be present and can be used. Very few mobile devices have the GFX software support of the iPhone...
ANY developer targeting ANY platform should know what the platform is capable of. For instance, if you develop a game for the iPod Touch 2nd Generation, you should know that it has a much faster CPU and GPU than the iPhone 3G, iPhone, or iPod Touch and design as such.
And any developer expecting to make any money will target the lowest common denominator, since that is the largest market...
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bloodline wrote:
Most/all current Windows Mobile devices have hardware GPU support (ex. Touch Diamond). Qualcomm and HTC didn't get drivers out until earlier this year, but as a result they are now back ported and/or hacked onto older models with the same chipset (ex. Kaiser, Polaris, Nike).
Yes, that's right Windows Mobile lacks any official 3D support... I've already said that most mobile devices now come with 3D hardware...
Nope, you are still wrong. :roll: Windows Mobile has had Direct3D for some time now. The difference was previous to working GPU drivers it was using software rendering, not the GPU hardware.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa452478.aspx
S60 has had hardware 3d support for years (since S60 2nd Edition, Feature Pack 2).
I've already said this... Symbian has support for 3D in software, i.e. OpenGL ES 1.0... But Symbian also runs on devices that don't have 3D hardware... Therefore 3D hardware is not required to make Symbian work... OSX on the other hand does require 3D hardware.
Not sure why this is really important to you. Like I said, if you target a specific platform, you should know what the platform can do and design as appropriate. On the S60 platform it's as simple as checking a string value to determine if there is hardware or software 3d support. (You need to check for other features anyway, such as screen size, color depth, etc.)
And, what does Mac OS 10 have to do with anything? :crazy: We're talking about mobile operating systems, Windows Mobile, Symbian, iPhone OS, etc.
And any developer expecting to make any money will target the lowest common denominator, since that is the largest market...
And risk the game running incorrectly on the faster model? Better to just add logic to change the game experience basesd on the system it's run on. (ie. run with more detail on an iPod Touch 2nd gen., less on iPhone 3G, still less on the older models.) This isn't anything specific to any architecture, from Amiga OS to iPhone OS, to Symbian.
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im still using my P900! :lol:
best phone eva!
And i can bluetooth send!
Beat that iphone!
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mikrucio wrote:
im still using my P900! :lol:
best phone eva!
And i can bluetooth send!
Beat that iphone!
Yeah, I bet you can send pictures in a txt message too ;-)
Then just to kick you in the balls there's no copy and paste either!
:lol:
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You cant send any file by bluetooth or mms because steve jobs is reinventing the communications, this features are from the past, like buttons, decent camera, durable and extraible batteries...
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iPhone v. Windows Mobile market share: http://www.edibleapple.com/iphone-tops-windows-mobile-in-worldwide-market-share/
Interesting bit:
Microsoft, in its zeal to get Windows Mobile onto as many phones as possible, is left with a phone OS that no one wants to use, and more importantly, one that developers don’t want to code for. Developers, who have long been getting chump change for their apps, are starting to see that they can make quite a bit of money developing programs for rival platforms such as the iPhone. Compounding the problem is the sheer number of devices that run Windows Mobile. If I’m a coder who wants to develop for Windows Mobile, which phone specs will I be using when I sit down and try to hash out some code? Will the phone have an acceleromator? Will it have a touchscreen? How big will the screen even be?! The questions are endless, and the headaches for developers numerous.
Gee, sounds a lot like developing for any platform that runs on arbitrary hardware, particularly with regard to game development. The toughest part for developers on the iPhone is the perception that everything should cost 0.99 USD (too much for a song, in my opinion, and probably not enough for a decent application). I've resisted buying music from iTunes because you can only download the song once, despite the fact that Apple keeps a complete history of your purchases and authorized playback devices. With apps, however, you can purchase them once and download them as many times as you want to however many devices you own.
EDIT: Wishful thinking: Microsoft releases Windows Mobile to the masses as an open source general purpose RTOS. It's necessarily quite open as it is, but even though you can port it to most any hardware platform, Microsoft won't allow you to redistribute your port without paying the piper.
I use my iPod Touch and iPhone 3G for browsing the web on the toilet and in the car and talking on the phone, although I prefer my old Motorola SLVR (w/ iTunes, which I never used) for the phone bits.
@kickstart
Although despite most plans for smart phones having unlimited data, providers still implement and charge exhorbitant prices for SMS messaging. SMS needs to die.
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lol the iphone sux!
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@mikrucio
That was an excellent counterpoint.
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Looks cool. Unfortunately due to where my family is we're stuck with Verizon, and they don't do cool phones like that. :( I was interested in their cut-down version of the HTC Touch Pro, but they require to sign up for data plan minimum $30/month for any smart phone. :( :( :( It freakin has Wifi in it, I don't need the freakin data plan... I don't know how phone companies operate outside of USA, but here I feel like they just want to rip me off and so I keep my old crappy getting senile Razr.
Some time in 2009, Verizon will start opening up their network to outside phones, once Verizon tests and approves of it of course.
Dammy
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Trev wrote:
iPhone v. Windows Mobile market share: http://www.edibleapple.com/iphone-tops-windows-mobile-in-worldwide-market-share/
Interesting bit:
Microsoft, in its zeal to get Windows Mobile onto as many phones as possible, is left with a phone OS that no one wants to use, and more importantly, one that developers don’t want to code for. Developers, who have long been getting chump change for their apps, are starting to see that they can make quite a bit of money developing programs for rival platforms such as the iPhone. Compounding the problem is the sheer number of devices that run Windows Mobile. If I’m a coder who wants to develop for Windows Mobile, which phone specs will I be using when I sit down and try to hash out some code? Will the phone have an acceleromator? Will it have a touchscreen? How big will the screen even be?! The questions are endless, and the headaches for developers numerous.
Gee, sounds a lot like developing for any platform that runs on arbitrary hardware, particularly with regard to game development. The toughest part for developers on the iPhone is the perception that everything should cost 0.99 USD (too much for a song, in my opinion, and probably not enough for a decent application). I've resisted buying music from iTunes because you can only download the song once, despite the fact that Apple keeps a complete history of your purchases and authorized playback devices. With apps, however, you can purchase them once and download them as many times as you want to however many devices you own.
I use my iPod Touch and iPhone 3G for browsing the web on the toilet and in the car and talking on the phone, although I prefer my old Motorola SLVR (w/ iTunes, which I never used) for the phone bits.
I'd love to have an iPhone. They are pretty cool looking and there's probably nothing that works as seamless and smooth as the iPhoneOS...
...but really, for a phone these days, MMS, I mean sending picture messages? That's a big one for me, though I'm sure for others they never use MMS at all.
...As far as that article and programing for Windows Mobile.. eh.. there are tons of programs out there by "bedroom" coders. There is no way you can compare the # of Windows Mobile apps to iPhone apps ( YET ;-) )My favorite IRC app, for example, on my phone is zsIRC. It's one guy and you can talk to him right on the forum of his site. The IRC app is awsome.
That said there are just so many apps I have on my WM6 phone, some that I could probably find if I got an iPhone and I 'jailbroke' it. But I don't want to deal with all that.
Then there are just the hardware limits. With WM6 you obviously have more than one choice of phone.
My phone I use for MEDIA, oh yeah!! I use orb.com a lot which works for the iPhone too, but if I want to bring movies with me I use PocketDivX and throw everything on MicroSD cards movies, music, whatever. (16GB on one of those little cards, it's just amazing).
The iPhone is a music phone and I think the lack of a memory card slot is another big miss for me. I just use my phone for too much media.
I'm as big an MS basher as they come, but really WM6 "just works" and there are tons of Apps and phones to choose.
The iPhone is obviosuly here to stay for a LONG time. Hopefully though they will add some of these features that a lot of people want and make it a complete solution. I keep hoping they anounce a 3rd generation phone soon.
Although despite most plans for smart phones having unlimited data, providers still implement and charge exhorbitant prices for SMS messaging. SMS needs to die.
I'm on ATT and the data package I have includes unlimited SMS/MMS. I don't know if SMS should die, but SMS prices need to die as they're rediculous. Before I got my data plan ATT changed their rates to 15 cents to send and 15 cents to recieve! That's crazy.
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Trev wrote:
Microsoft, in its zeal to get Windows Mobile onto as many phones as possible, is left with a phone OS that no one wants to use, and more importantly, one that developers don’t want to code for. Developers, who have long been getting chump change for their apps, are starting to see that they can make quite a bit of money developing programs for rival platforms such as the iPhone. Compounding the problem is the sheer number of devices that run Windows Mobile. If I’m a coder who wants to develop for Windows Mobile, which phone specs will I be using when I sit down and try to hash out some code? Will the phone have an acceleromator? Will it have a touchscreen? How big will the screen even be?! The questions are endless, and the headaches for developers numerous.
Agreed. As I've said about 5 times in this thread so far, developers really need to know their target (unless you're doing J2ME stuff but even then you still need to know what JSRs are supported).
Anyway, iPod/iPhone developers aren't immune to this either (albiet to a lesser scale because of the devices infancy); GPS or no GPS? FPU or no FPU? CPU speed? To make matters worse, AFAIK there is nothing in the SDK that allows you to determine device capabilities. There's probably an undocumented API call somewhere, but we know how Apple likes developers using undocumented features. :lol:
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I'm on ATT and the data package I have includes unlimited SMS/MMS. I don't know if SMS should die, but SMS prices need to die as they're rediculous. Before I got my data plan ATT changed their rates to 15 cents to send and 15 cents to recieve! That's crazy.
It's 20 cents now, and the city of Sacramento (which I live near but not in) passed legislation to start taxing mobile phone services (in addition to taxes already imposed by state and federal laws).
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adolescent wrote:
Agreed. As I've said about 5 times in this thread so far, developers really need to know their target (unless you're doing J2ME stuff but even then you still need to know what JSRs are supported).
Anyway, iPod/iPhone developers aren't immune to this either (albiet to a lesser scale because of the devices infancy); GPS or no GPS? FPU or no FPU? CPU speed? To make matters worse, AFAIK there is nothing in the SDK that allows you to determine device capabilities. There's probably an undocumented API call somewhere, but we know how Apple likes developers using undocumented features. :lol:
Yeah, but isn't that just like saying iPhone has certain specs to program to? There is a larger range now with 2 generations and the iPod touches so you have multiple specs.
"PocketPC" -PPC is just a Spec. WindowsMobile runs on PPC, so you have a spec to program to.
So developers do know there target. Hence the 1000s of "PPC" apps that run on all the phones out there.
Does the phone have GPS or other "special" feature? I don't see how that is a big deal. Depending on the App you are programing either the App doesn't work at all on that phone (like you bought a GPS specific program for a phone that has no GPS , why would you do that??) or that feature is disable.
Example might be Google Maps for PPC. If you have a GPS in the phone then you can have it show you on the map where you are. If your phone doesn't have GPS then that feature isn't available.
I don't see why that is a problem.
For wikipedia: Any device which is to be classified as a Pocket PC must:
-Run Microsoft's Windows Mobile, PocketPC edition
-Come bundled with a specific suite of applications in ROM
-Include a touchscreen
-Include a directional pad or touchpad
-Include a set of hardware application buttons
-Be based on an ARM version 4 compatible CPU, Intel XScale CPU, MIPS CPU or SH3 CPU. (As of the Pocket PC 2002 specification, ARM-based CPUs are required.)
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Agreed. As I've said about 5 times in this thread so far, developers really need to know their target (unless you're doing J2ME stuff but even then you still need to know what JSRs are supported).
I wasn't trying to say that they needed to know their target platform (which in this case is Windows Mobile and not the hardware itself, although having to compile for multiple CPUs does complicate performance analysis)--that's a given. What I was I trying to imply is that programmers need to be smarter than that.
Extending the GPS reference a bit, you don't write GPS code, you write location awareness code and let the operating environment worry about how the location is determined (GPS, cell tower triangulation, WiFi hotspot database, user input, etc.). It's unfair to blame the platform for your own design mistakes.
Apple's tight coupling of hardware and operating environment allows developers to write, in theory, worry-free code, in the same vein as the game consoles of old. The advent of software updates for console games--Xbox, Xbox 360, PS3, and Wii--has, in my opinion, allowed console developers (or rather, quality assurance analysts and program managers) to get lazy. Why fix today....
That said, I'd rather see an open platform. I love my Mac--it's pretty, it talks to my audio gear without headaches, etc.--but I do all my hacking on a generic Windows box (including cross-compiling for the Amiga).
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Trev wrote:
I wasn't trying to say that they needed to know their target platform (which in this case is Windows Mobile and not the hardware itself, although having to compile for multiple CPUs does complicate performance analysis)--that's a given. What I was I trying to imply is that programmers need to be smarter than that.
See AmigaHeretic's message above. Windows Mobile only supports a single CPU (family).
Extending the GPS reference a bit, you don't write GPS code, you write location awareness code and let the operating environment worry about how the location is determined (GPS, cell tower triangulation, WiFi hotspot database, user input, etc.). It's unfair to blame the platform for your own design mistakes.
Not blaming the platform, I was only using the example of how the devices do not have the same performance and/or functionality. That is, the iPod Touch uses Core Location very differently than any of the iPhones due to it's lack of GPS and GSM.
The main point is that these gaps are only going to get bigger as new iPhone/iPod models are released. Perhaps a new iPhone will have a better bluetooth profile, increased resolution, etc. The criticism that Windows Mobile was difficult to develop for simply because there are so many varying devices available is likely to affect the iPhone/iPod too.
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The main point is that these gaps are only going to get bigger as new iPhone/iPod models are released. Perhaps a new iPhone will have a better bluetooth profile, increased resolution, etc. The criticism that Windows Mobile was difficult to develop for simply because there are so many varying devices available is likely to affect the iPhone/iPod too.
I doubt it will be that difficult. Apple can just slap different profiles to their dev tools which will allow easy development for all iPhone platforms. Clear advantage of not licensing your OS to third parties.
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Can the iPhone do this?
YouTube - 3D Alt Tab Screen Rotate - Windows Mobile (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsixI-1H9A&feature=related)
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@AmigaHeretic
Yes, but that's just battery wasting eye candy.
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AmigaHeretic wrote:
Can the iPhone do this?
YouTube - 3D Alt Tab Screen Rotate - Windows Mobile (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsixI-1H9A&feature=related)
Well of course not, the iPhone only runs a single application at a time... Have you ever used one? :-?
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Trev wrote:
@AmigaHeretic
Yes, but that's just battery wasting eye candy.
Well if it's eye candy he wants the iPhone has far more impressive suff that 3D task switching :-D
If there is one thing he can't deny is that the iPhone has plenty of eye candy!
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@adolescent
Microsoft must be gettimg stingy with their SKUs. Last I read, support included ARM, SH, MIPS, and x86.
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@Trev
You're probably mixing up Windows Embedded Compact (previously known as Windows CE) with Windows Mobile. Windows Mobile is based on Windows CE, but is ARM (family) only.
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bloodline wrote:
Trev wrote:
@AmigaHeretic
Yes, but that's just battery wasting eye candy.
Well if it's eye candy he wants the iPhone has far more impressive suff that 3D task switching :-D
If there is one thing he can't deny is that the iPhone has plenty of eye candy!
So what is the answer? Yes? No? Or, the iPhone has "more impressive" battery wasting eye candy? :roll:
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You can only run one app at a time on the Iphone ?
Really, honestly.
So you cant for instance, be playing a game with the sound off, listening to your mp3s and switch to a browswer and then switch back to the game.
If not thats seriously rubbish and limiting.
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that can't be right.
i can play MP3's at the same time and scurf the web on my 6120. i noticed it was a bit slow one day and was complaing about memory, then i found i'd left quake running in the background...
shurely shome mishtake?
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@adolescent
Which is why I said Microsoft must be getting stingy with their SKUs. The compiler itself still supports the various architectures. Microsoft must have decided not to sell Windows Mobile 6.x for anything than ARM (and probably x86 for testing).
As far as eye candy, of course the iPhone can flip, rotate, and texture map screens. It also multitasks (it's running the same kernel as Mac OS X, after all). The difference is that task switching is controlled by the Home button and Home screen. The OP asked whether or not the iPhone could do it, not whether or not the operating environment mimicked that behavior out of the box.
The thing I don't like about the iPhone, iPod Touch, Windows CE/Embedded/Mobile, and so on is that when you close an application, it doesn't end the process. Instead, the process continues running in the background. You can kill processes on all the environments I've mentioned, but it's usually difficult and annoying to do so (holding the Home button on the iPhone, control panel on Windows). The same annoyance exists in Mac OS X (and NeXT, I suppose, which is where Mac OS X got it), but at least you have an option to end the process directly.
It's also prevalent in Windows apps that minimize to the system tray (which was never intended for that purpose) and UNIX apps that run as a combination daemon and user interface. In other words, it takes control of the process out of the hands of the user. Bad mojo. Time to revolt against the MCP, perhaps.
@JJ
I don't know if you can use iTunes (or another media player) as background music while you play a game. I'm not sure you would want to, though. Personally, I prefer to play games the way the designers intended them to be played--in the same I prefer matted widescreen to pan and scan. ;-) The iPhone, like most mobile devices, is not supposed to be all things to everybody, although it's more of a general purpose computer than most phones. The same can be said of Windows Mobile devices, I'm sure.
That sort of task switching is also a serious resource drain, unless the idle tasks are properly suspended. Most small devices are designed with a specific power budget/footprint in mind.
EDIT: Just thinking that I would like to create a custom radio station in Fallout 3 that streams from the XM 40's station. The GNR station in the game gets repetitive. I also had the BGM so low that I didn't realize the game even had BGM until after I'd finished it the first time through.
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Yes, the iPhone is full of battery wasting eye candy... Which raises one of my two criticism of the iPhone.
Battery life is poor... to be fair if you just use it as a Phone and iPod, it has a decent battery life... but as soon as you watch movie, play a game and hit the web... you can easily run the battery dead.
As strange as it sound the iPhone/iPod Touch only allows one application to run at a time (Apple's own apps, SMS, Email, Phone, iPod and Calendar all run in the background, but no others). These are the rules of the SDK, if you violate them, then Apple don't allow you to post on the App Store. Apple have clearly stated this is to ensure that the battery and memory resource are not used accidentally (given how battery hungry it already is, that is a good move)
When you hit the Home button the Application must quit out, Apple do provide the option of saving the program state to the non-volatile memory before quitting, thus the application can return to where the user left off upon restart.
This leads me to my second criticism of the iPhone... Applications are supposed to be able to register with the Apple Push server, so that any notification events could be run "in the background" without using any of the iPhone's battery... it's a great idea and clever solution to the background task problem... Apple promised it in September... and some early Beta's of OS 2.1 had it switched on... but it's now December and they have STILL not rolled it out to the users yet... this is a really lame thing.
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JJ wrote:
You can only run one app at a time on the Iphone ?
Yes, that's right.
Really, honestly.
Honestly!
So you cant for instance, be playing a game with the sound off, listening to your mp3s and switch to a browswer and then switch back to the game.
No, Apple's iPod app is allowed to run in the background, so you can listen to mp3s while doing other things. if you double tap the home button a small iPod interface pops up over the currently running app, so you can change songs etc...
Safari, the web browser, saves it's state on exit so that when you reopen it, you start exactly where you left off, but it wasn't running while exited... you can test this but having a simple JavaScript counter running on a webpage... it will stop for the time the app was closed :-)
If not thats seriously rubbish and limiting.
If Developers save the app state upon exit (and register a push service, if apple ever get around to activating it), then you would never know the app wasn't running and using up valuable battery.
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@bloodline
I did not know that, and actually, it makes me like my iPhone a little more. ;-) The last thing I want is Widgety Guy computing pi in the background and chewing up my battery.
EDIT: But I'm not fond of vendors artificially restricting their customers. Still, it results in a more stable platform.
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Trev wrote:
@bloodline
I did not know that, and actually, it makes me like my iPhone a little more. ;-) The last thing I want is Widgety Guy computing pi in the background and chewing up my battery.
EDIT: But I'm not fond of vendors artificially restricting their customers. Still, it results in a more stable platform.
That seems strange to me.
What about "chat" apps like MSN, Yahoo, etc.. On my phone I use 'Fring' a messenger app that has all the big ones at once ICQ, MSN, etc... How would that even work if it can't run in the background.
IRC app? (I use zsIRC) I mean I leave zsIRC running in the background while I surf the web. Would be pretty useless if I had to close it and open everytime I want to do something else on my phone and the channel wouldn't be too happy either ;-)
I stream ShoutCasts all the time while surfing, chatting, etc. Does the native iTunes player allow streaming?
Yeah, I've maybe gotten too use to my phone being a mini-computer. Might be a bad thing! :-D :-D :-D
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I think apps like AIM have to be running to receive messages. Thought: if they ran in the background, they'd compete with Apple/AT&T's implementation of SMS. Same goes for media players. Apple would probably frown upon (or even forbid) anything that competes with iTunes. That's too bad, though, since you can use the iTunes desktop app to listen to "Internet radio" stations. The same functionality should be added to the iPhone/iPod Touch. I guess you can listen to podcasts, but I'm not sure if those can be live streams or if they're just the fixed length recordings uploaded to iTunes--I haven't used it yet. I'm sure Bloodline can weigh in here.
The advent of "netbooks" is once again changing people's views of mobile devices. I think someone already commented on buying a netbook with a 3G card as opposed to a smart phone of the same price. (Or maybe I read that somewhere else.)
Semi-related question: does anyone see value in an iTunes-compatible (read: iPod software clone) audio player for Amiga-like systems? Not sure how connectivity would work, but I'm thinking along the lines of using mDNS to locate local iTunes libraries.
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AmigaHeretic wrote:
Trev wrote:
@bloodline
I did not know that, and actually, it makes me like my iPhone a little more. ;-) The last thing I want is Widgety Guy computing pi in the background and chewing up my battery.
EDIT: But I'm not fond of vendors artificially restricting their customers. Still, it results in a more stable platform.
That seems strange to me.
What about "chat" apps like MSN, Yahoo, etc.. On my phone I use 'Fring' a messenger app that has all the big ones at once ICQ, MSN, etc... How would that even work if it can't run in the background.
IRC app? (I use zsIRC) I mean I leave zsIRC running in the background while I surf the web. Would be pretty useless if I had to close it and open everytime I want to do something else on my phone and the channel wouldn't be too happy either ;-)
I stream ShoutCasts all the time while surfing, chatting, etc. Does the native iTunes player allow streaming?
Yeah, I've maybe gotten too use to my phone being a mini-computer. Might be a bad thing! :-D :-D :-D
This is what the Push service is for... Your IM or IRC client registers with the Apple Push server, and when you close down the app, the Push Server runs the Client, and can notify you of any new messages via "Badges" and alert boxes. This means that the IM/IRC client is actually running on Apple's server while the app is closed on the phone... it's complicated to explain, but simple to understand (Think cloud computing)... anyway it gives you functionality of the app still running, but with no battery usage... the disadvantage is that you need to have a data connection for it to work... but for something like an IM/IRC client, you need a data connection anyway :-)
Anyway, this is a great idea... that Apple have Beta, but not not for masses yet... and they are three months late :-(
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Trev wrote:
I think apps like AIM have to be running to receive messages. Thought: if they ran in the background, they'd compete with Apple/AT&T's implementation of SMS. Same goes for media players. Apple would probably frown upon (or even forbid) anything that competes with iTunes. That's too bad, though, since you can use the iTunes desktop app to listen to "Internet radio" stations.
I use CapitalFM 98 app on my iPhone (it's the best UK one, for sure, and despite it's name it streams loads of different radio stations), to listen to internet radio... there are quite a few internet radio apps on the apps store! :-)
The same functionality should be added to the iPhone/iPod Touch. I guess you can listen to podcasts, but I'm not sure if those can be live streams or if they're just the fixed length recordings uploaded to iTunes--I haven't used it yet. I'm sure Bloodline can weigh in here.
iPhoneOS 2.2 supports podcasts over the network and wifi... works really well... on a long boring train journey for example :-)
The advent of "netbooks" is once again changing people's views of mobile devices. I think someone already commented on buying a netbook with a 3G card as opposed to a smart phone of the same price. (Or maybe I read that somewhere else.)
People love netbooks... I use my iPhone for almost all my internet and Email now... like right now :-) So I guess people find the same use with Netbooks... I would have no need of one.
Semi-related question: does anyone see value in an iTunes-compatible (read: iPod software clone) audio player for Amiga-like systems? Not sure how connectivity would work, but I'm thinking along the lines of using mDNS to locate local iTunes libraries.
Would be fun, are there any open source ones that could be ported?
I have "Simplify Media" app on my iPhone... I run Simplify Server on my old PowerBook at home that can stream my entire itunes collection over the internet to my iPhone... or any computer who knows my IP address and my Simplify password :-D
-Edit- http://www.simplifymedia.com/
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bloodline wrote:
This is what the Push service is for... Your IM or IRC client registers with the Apple Push server, and when you close down the app, the Push Server runs the Client, and can notify you of any new messages via "Badges" and alert boxes. This means that the IM/IRC client is actually running on Apple's server while the app is closed on the phone... it's complicated to explain, but simple to understand (Think cloud computing)... anyway it gives you functionality of the app still running, but with no battery usage... the disadvantage is that you need to have a data connection for it to work... but for something like an IM/IRC client, you need a data connection anyway :-)
Mmm.. kinda understand. I think that's how AT&Ts OGO use to work and one of the reasons they stopped support for OGO though. :-( One of my favorite devices of all time. Same thing though, it had IM that ran on their servers and you connected to their server sort of thing. All basically transparent. Except sometimes it stayed logged into your AIM, MSN, Yahoo even though you weren't on. Then people would think you were on, but never responding. It didn't have IRC though.
Anyway, this is a great idea... that Apple have Beta, but not not for masses yet... and they are three months late :-(
So can anyone write on IRC app and have access to these servers of theirs?
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AmigaHeretic wrote:
bloodline wrote:
This is what the Push service is for... Your IM or IRC client registers with the Apple Push server, and when you close down the app, the Push Server runs the Client, and can notify you of any new messages via "Badges" and alert boxes. This means that the IM/IRC client is actually running on Apple's server while the app is closed on the phone... it's complicated to explain, but simple to understand (Think cloud computing)... anyway it gives you functionality of the app still running, but with no battery usage... the disadvantage is that you need to have a data connection for it to work... but for something like an IM/IRC client, you need a data connection anyway :-)
Mmm.. kinda understand. I think that's how AT&Ts OGO use to work and one of the reasons they stopped support for OGO though. :-( One of my favorite devices of all time. Same thing though, it had IM that ran on their servers and you connected to their server sort of thing. All basically transparent. Except sometimes it stayed logged into your AIM, MSN, Yahoo even though you weren't on. Then people would think you were on, but never responding. It didn't have IRC though.
Yes, sort of... except if someone sends you a message your iPhone will alert you in much the same way as an SMS does.
Anyway, this is a great idea... that Apple have Beta, but not not for masses yet... and they are three months late :-(
So can anyone write on IRC app and have access to these servers of theirs?
Yes, Apple provide a standard API to your app can use the Push service for whatever it needs, it doesn't have to be an IM/IRC client... could be anything that needs background processing.
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Quote:
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Semi-related question: does anyone see value in an iTunes-compatible (read: iPod software clone) audio player for Amiga-like systems? Not sure how connectivity would work, but I'm thinking along the lines of using mDNS to locate local iTunes libraries.
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Would be fun, are there any open source ones that could be ported?
There are commercial iTunes implementations that could be reverse engineered and reimplemented (without infringing upon patents, natch) for interoperability. Could be tricky, though, as the courts have not been kind to the interoperability crowd, regardless of their intent. Apple doesn't want competing software to have access to purchased iTunes content.
Yes, Apple provide a standard API to your app can use the Push service for whatever it needs, it doesn't have to be an IM/IRC client... could be anything that needs background processing.
Which is probably why it's delayed. Apple, too, does not want Widgety Guy computing pi or folding proteins on its cloud just so iPhone customers can feel good about their standing in the unit processing race.
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Trev wrote:
@adolescent
Which is why I said Microsoft must be getting stingy with their SKUs. The compiler itself still supports the various architectures. Microsoft must have decided not to sell Windows Mobile 6.x for anything than ARM (and probably x86 for testing).
That's because the compiler is for any Windows Embedded Compact device, not just Windows Mobile. AFAIK, Windows Mobile has been ARM only from the beginning. Not stingy... standard.
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That's because the compiler is for any Windows Embedded Compact device, not just Windows Mobile. AFAIK, Windows Mobile has been ARM only from the beginning. Not stingy... standard.
And every other edition of Windows, excepting the 16-bit stuff. (Although you can still produce 16-bit code with the latest version of MASM and link DOS executables with the last version of LINK.EXE from ftp.microsoft.com.)
Since they share the same codebase, I tend to think of them as being the same thing, in the same way that Windows NT/2000/XP/2003/Vista/2008/7 are the same thing, albeit with changes to the base feature set (and, d'oh, the dropping of support for Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC) over the years.
None of that changes my original point, though. :-) If I were developing for the WinCE kernel, I wouldn't limit myself to a single device profile or SKU.
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Can't see what's wrong with my Motorola Dyna TAC 8000. Sure the Red LED display in not as trendy as backlit LCD but you can't have everything.
:-P
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gertsy wrote:
Can't see what's wrong with my Motorola Dyna TAC 8000. Sure the Red LED display in not as trendy as backlit LCD but you can't have everything.
:-P
:lol:
A couple of months ago I sat my iPhone 3G next to my Nokia 5110 (my first mobile) and thought about how far we have come in the last 9 years!
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@bloodline
Add a dock port compatible mass-spec, and the iPhone becomes a tricorder. Of course, it couldn't automagically transfer the whole of an alien civilization's literary works (plus an artificialy-preserved lifeform or two) to internal memory, but it would still be pretty cool.