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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Tension on December 13, 2008, 10:33:37 PM
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After reading this thread:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39436
I was wondering, did Akiko (Chunky to planar chip (whatever that does) in the CD32) ever get used to do something a normal Amiga couldn`t do?
Hmmm....
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AFAIK it was used in the CD32 Version of Wingcommander. There was another titel or even two that used it but that's about it. It was no magic chip though it did make C2P conversion in hardware an 68030 @ 50 MHz could do the same in software at the same speed. Back in the time it was a huge costsaver to use a lowly 68EC020 insted of an 68030 and have (in that aspect) the same punch.
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gloom had an option to use it, i believe. Maybe the racing game by Siltunna software forget its name.. Akiko allowed chunky graphics in hardware ie doom-type games. One of the reason the Amiga got sidelined as a games machine was Doom on the PC and the prohibitive cost to expand an Amiga an accelerator to do doom-type games. You know if the A1200 had Akiko it would've made 3d games easier to run for the many users who just had RAM cards, 28 mhz '020 or even slower '030, meaning many people could play them out of the box.
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You know if the A1200 had Akiko it would've made 3d games easier to run for the many users who just had RAM cards, 28 mhz '020 or even slower '030, meaning many people could play them out of the box.
I am pretty sure that is inaccurate.
The Akiko was invented as an alternative to (at the time) expensive FastRAM not CPU power.
Add just some FastRAM to an AGA Amiga and becomes as fast if not faster to use the EC020 than to use an Akiko.
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One of the reason the Amiga got sidelined as a games machine was Doom on the PC and the prohibitive cost to expand an Amiga an accelerator to do doom-type games.
My guess is that Commodore going bankrupt was the actual reason.
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alexh wrote:
You know if the A1200 had Akiko it would've made 3d games easier to run for the many users who just had RAM cards, 28 mhz '020 or even slower '030, meaning many people could play them out of the box.
I am pretty sure that is inaccurate.
The Akiko was invented as an alternative to (at the time) expensive FastRAM not CPU power.
Add just some FastRAM to an AGA Amiga and becomes as fast if not faster to use the EC020 than to use an Akiko.
No i am 100% sure that Akiko was provided a chunky graphics option in hardware which meant it was the closest to a 3d chip that commodore made and would have made 3d doom type games run faster as there did not have to be an chunky-planar graphics conversion in software by the CPU. I am 99.99% sure that Akiko was not alternative to fast ram as evidenced by the fact that the CD32 has 2 meg of chip ram and no more, the same as all AGA machines without akiko.
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In an Amiazing Amiga US magazine with Lew Eggbrecht, then VP of engineering of Commodore commented on the chip. The Akiko was quickly designed and was fully functional with just one design pass, not requiring mutiple design revisions. It was designed soley to convert square pixels to Amiga planar Amiga style graphics.
That being said a case of too little too late. When Super nintendo had the special mode 7, Sega Genesis had it's own type "graphics chip" kludged onto the SegaCD or certain Genesis carts. Even dreaded SEGA add ons gave you the CPU power of an 040/highspeed 030. Add to that... PC buyers happy to spend $2000 for a fully loaded PC to play Wing Commdander, then Doom from 1990-1994.
The CD32 needed RAW cpu power and GAMES that could win hearts and minds of gamers.
The PS1 really filled that void quite well.
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No i am 100% sure that Akiko was provided a chunky graphics option in hardware which meant it was the closest to a 3d chip that commodore made and would have made 3d doom type games run faster as there did not have to be an chunky-planar graphics conversion in software by the CPU. I am 99.99% sure that Akiko was not alternative to fast ram as evidenced by the fact that the CD32 has 2 meg of chip ram and no more, the same as all AGA machines without akiko.
Yes of course the Akiko did do C2P conversion that was it's job. What alexh is trying to say is that if the 68EC020 in the CD32 had access to a little bit fast RAM it would have enough computing power to do ,what Akiko does in hardware, in software.
While I have a fealing that it still takes an 68030 to beat the Akiko with software C2P conversion the bottomline is still Akikos hardware acceleration was not that groundbreaking.
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Makes you wonder what could have been had there been bigger budgets. For the longest time Commodore fabbed their own chips, where the competition had to use off the shelf hardware for such tasks or contract with outside vendors.
In an another interview with a Commodore Engineer the running joke from the management was "read my lips no new chips". A pun on one of President Bush #1's speeches/ sound bytes at the time.
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I read this thread's title like 'Did Akiko ever got sued' for quite a while and got thinking .... 'Who TF is Akiko ?' aaah I need my morning tea.
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Yes of course the Akiko did do C2P conversion that was it's job. What alexh is trying to say is that if the 68EC020 in the CD32 had access to a little bit fast RAM it would have enough computing power to do ,what Akiko does in hardware, in software.
While I have a fealing that it still takes an 68030 to beat the Akiko with software C2P conversion the bottomline is still Akikos hardware acceleration was not that groundbreaking.
Yes understood but it was my point that an '020 (and probably a slow '030 as well) with fast ram would do C2P slower than the akiko. it wasn't I think a question of just achieving 020 plus fast ram performance without the fast ram. to do what the akiko could do out of the box (for little cost) you need an accelerator probably at least 40 mhz '030 in addition to the fast ram. None of which were cheap at the time. Not ground breaking performance but I bet it could've meant the mass exodus of Amiga gamers to PC may have been delayed that bit longer because people might have been able to play something resembling doom without paying $700 to get an '030 AND 4 meg ram or a $2000 pc. And don't discount the ability of Amiga programmers to wring out the last drop of performance from amiga hardware..
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According to Wikipedia:
Akiko is also responsible for implementing some of the control logic for the CD32's CD-ROM controller, as well as for controlling the serial ('AUX') port.
Cheers,
James
x
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Akiko sucks, indeed.
To use it, a 8 longwords (containing 32 chunky pixels) is written to the register. Then the same register is read back the planar data, one bitplane at a time. The CPU must still be used to read the chunky data, feed to the register, read the planar data from the register and write to the chip memory.
Actual true DMA device would have been much more useful.
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Indeed, Akiko was a very simplistic approach (basically latches and some wiring) to be able to handle chunky data instead of adding a native mode to the chipset, which would've been a much better idea a couple of years earlier.
IMHO adding a chunky mode to Lisa wouldn't have been very hard. It would've rendered the blitter partly useless, but that could have been addressed later with a new Alice rev.
On a side note, an '030 is only faster than an (EC)'020 for its data cache and higher clock speeds. Switch off the cache and they perform exactly the same, to the cycle.
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I think both Shapeshifter and Fusion had akiko enabled video drivers. Never tried, probably they didn't help too much.
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@stefcep2
Think of the Akiko c2p as little more than a buffer, the CPU writes the chunky data to the buffer from the chip ram, and then reads it back to the chip ram in a different format... As Alexh has pointed out an 020 with some fast ram and an optimized c2p fast ram to chip ram copy routine can easily outpace the much cheaper Akiko approach :-)
Remember, Akiko's main role was really CDRom stuff.
Thinking about Commodore would only have needed to add two new modes to Lisa to have remained competitive at the time... A 256 colour packed pixel 640*256 (200 for NTSC) mode and a 256 colour packed pixel VGA mode (640*480)... That would have bought the Amiga at least two more years!!!!
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@bloodline
Thinking about Commodore would only have needed to add two new modes to Lisa to have remained competitive at the time... A 256 colour packed pixel 640*256 (200 for NTSC) mode and a 256 colour packed pixel VGA mode (640*480)... That would have bought the Amiga at least two more years!!!!
With 68020 at 14MHz without fast ram? Yeah, sure.
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Lorraine wrote:
bloodline wrote:
@stefcep2
Think of the Akiko c2p as little more than a buffer, the CPU writes the chunky data to the buffer from the chip ram, and then reads it back to the chip ram in a different format... As Alexh has pointed out an 020 with some fast ram and an optimized c2p fast ram to chip ram copy routine can easily outpace the much cheaper Akiko approach :-)
Remember, Akiko's main role was really CDRom stuff.
This is why I say the CD32 is fine as it is. They added a workaround for the sake of making a true console, which its simplistic nature would probably be better if the game supported it.
Adding accelerators and keyboards to a CD32 is just messing around if you ask me. You can't fault what the CD32 does on its own, and accelerators are expensive anyway.
Thinking about Commodore would only have needed to add two new modes to Lisa to have remained competitive at the time... A 256 colour packed pixel 640*256 (200 for NTSC) mode and a 256 colour packed pixel VGA mode (640*480)... That would have bought the Amiga at least two more years!!!!
Isn't that the case? Sad really. Maybe a little fastram but screenmodes were definitely the big thing missing that competitiors had, looking at it historically. (Extra power would be nice but PCs were well behind for a long time)
Someone mentioned the software and games which is always a factor. I remember Goldeneye 007 selling 64s in the masses!
TRUE!!
Gondeneye is the best game for any console ever!!
Its the only reason I got an N64, and the only game I ever really got in to.
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itix wrote:
@bloodline
Thinking about Commodore would only have needed to add two new modes to Lisa to have remained competitive at the time... A 256 colour packed pixel 640*256 (200 for NTSC) mode and a 256 colour packed pixel VGA mode (640*480)... That would have bought the Amiga at least two more years!!!!
With 68020 at 14MHz without fast ram? Yeah, sure.
The Amiga (as in the technology), not the A1200... :-)
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Tension wrote:
Gondeneye is the best game for any console ever!!
Its the only reason I got an N64, and the only game I ever really got in to.
Urgh, I never got passed level 1 out of pure boredom. FPS'es on gameconsoles, that's like cycling on a bike with yer hands instead of your feet.
On the other hand, especially race games rule on gameconsoles.
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OT Multiplayer death match is fantastic on golden eye.
If you liked goldeneye you'll probably love timesplitters, its by a few of the same guys that did goldeneye. played it on the gamecube, a lot of fun
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Jupp3 wrote:
I think both Shapeshifter and Fusion had akiko enabled video drivers. Never tried, probably they didn't help too much.
Yes, they did, and on a CD32 they were a HUGE help. Remember what kind of system you're talking about there. ;-)
For what it's worth, back before Doom was open sourced, I had been working on some code to play Doom on the Amiga. I had a number of c2p routines that covered everything from using nothing but the CPU, to using AKIKO, to CyberGfx. One of the routines did one pass with the CPU to reorder the data, then used the blitter to do the c2p. If the app could render in columns (like Doom), the CPU pass could be skipped leaving the blitter to do everything. I could break 20 FPS (at 320x200) on a stock A1200 with that.
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JLF65 wrote:
Jupp3 wrote:
I think both Shapeshifter and Fusion had akiko enabled video drivers. Never tried, probably they didn't help too much.
Yes, they did, and on a CD32 they were a HUGE help. Remember what kind of system you're talking about there. ;-)
For what it's worth, back before Doom was open sourced, I had been working on some code to play Doom on the Amiga. I had a number of c2p routines that covered everything from using nothing but the CPU, to using AKIKO, to CyberGfx. One of the routines did one pass with the CPU to reorder the data, then used the blitter to do the c2p. If the app could render in columns (like Doom), the CPU pass could be skipped leaving the blitter to do everything. I could break 20 FPS (at 320x200) on a stock A1200 with that.
And with Akiko?
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Well regarding the Akiko Doom routines, have my cd32 connected again. gotta source an at keyboard for my sx-1 and see how Adoom plays again on that hardware. Just for sh*ts and grins.
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stefcep2 wrote:
JLF65 wrote:
Jupp3 wrote:
I think both Shapeshifter and Fusion had akiko enabled video drivers. Never tried, probably they didn't help too much.
Yes, they did, and on a CD32 they were a HUGE help. Remember what kind of system you're talking about there. ;-)
For what it's worth, back before Doom was open sourced, I had been working on some code to play Doom on the Amiga. I had a number of c2p routines that covered everything from using nothing but the CPU, to using AKIKO, to CyberGfx. One of the routines did one pass with the CPU to reorder the data, then used the blitter to do the c2p. If the app could render in columns (like Doom), the CPU pass could be skipped leaving the blitter to do everything. I could break 20 FPS (at 320x200) on a stock A1200 with that.
And with Akiko?
If you interleaved the writes to chipmem just right, you could go faster. It's like the c2p done with the 030/040 and fastmem - you want enough time between writes to chipmem that you didn't stall waiting on a time slot. The moment you had the first long ready, you wrote it and then continued doing c2p to make time before you wrote the next long.
With AKIKO, too many programmers just looped over the entire screen sending eight longs to AKIKO, then writing back the eight long from it. While that works, they're wasting time that could be spent doing something else. Most of the time in such a loop is spent waiting for free chipmem slots.
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There was a really interesting thread on another forum about C2P and DOOM speeds on different Amiga systems. I tested it myself on two of my Amigas, running the DOOM Benchmark, and these are the results I got:
A1200 030/50Mhz 32Mb (Optimised 020 C2P) - 8481 realtics (8.8 fps)
Amiga CD32 68020/14Mhz 8Mb (Optimised 020 C2P) - 18971 realtics (3.9 fps)
Amiga CD32 68020/14Mhz 8Mb (Optimised Akiko C2P) - 12872 realtics (5.8 fps)
I hope this helps clear up some peoples ideas of exactly how fast each of these CPU/C2P combinations are.
The bottom line I guess is this: Akiko DOES work, and DOES make 3D games run smoother (if it's utilised, obviously), but the increase isn't drastic, not as much as adding a 030 at least. I have not tried to run DOOM on the CD32 without Fast RAM (I have a SX32), and I'm not sure if it's possible in only 2MB Chip RAM, but if someone is willing to try writing a startup sequence or something to get it booting, I'll gladly give it a go and report how a CD32 runs the game using Akiko WITHOUT Fast RAM.
Oh, and obviously the Akiko routines for Shapeshifter and Fusion wouldn't be great on a standard CD32, but they might help out if you have a SX32 Pro 030/50Mhz with 32MB RAM or something, with slightly faster screen updates it might be alright to run some older 2D games in colour. Maybe :)
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Cammy wrote:
There was a really interesting thread on another forum about C2P and DOOM speeds on different Amiga systems. I tested it myself on two of my Amigas, running the DOOM Benchmark, and these are the results I got:
A1200 030/50Mhz 32Mb (Optimised 020 C2P) - 8481 realtics (8.8 fps)
Amiga CD32 68020/14Mhz 8Mb (Optimised 020 C2P) - 18971 realtics (3.9 fps)
Amiga CD32 68020/14Mhz 8Mb (Optimised Akiko C2P) - 12872 realtics (5.8 fps)
I hope this helps clear up some peoples ideas of exactly how fast each of these CPU/C2P combinations are.
The bottom line I guess is this: Akiko DOES work, and DOES make 3D games run smoother (if it's utilised, obviously), but the increase isn't drastic, not as much as adding a 030 at least. I have not tried to run DOOM on the CD32 without Fast RAM (I have a SX32), and I'm not sure if it's possible in only 2MB Chip RAM, but if someone is willing to try writing a startup sequence or something to get it booting, I'll gladly give it a go and report how a CD32 runs the game using Akiko WITHOUT Fast RAM.
Oh, and obviously the Akiko routines for Shapeshifter and Fusion wouldn't be great on a standard CD32, but they might help out if you have a SX32 Pro 030/50Mhz with 32MB RAM or something, with slightly faster screen updates it might be alright to run some older 2D games in colour. Maybe :)
These figures especially for the 50 mhz '030 seem low to me. I could remember-I think- doing better than that with optimized versions of Adoom. I could be wrong as I had a 40 mhz '030 and later a 40 mhz Apollo 1240 '040, so may be I'm confusing the two cards I had.
If they are right then assuming 50 mhz '030 is twice as fast as 25 mhz '030, the Akiko does better than an 25 mhz '030 with fast ram, for a lot less $$