Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: asymetrix on December 08, 2008, 01:38:13 PM
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Is it time for AROS to be the official OS for Natami ?
As you know Amiga OS3 users are not supported by the OS4 team.
More and more software for OS4.1 is breaking compatibility with AmigaOS3 and more software is becoming OS4 only.
This is the current situation, and OS4 team have chosen to break with the past and create new software OS4 only.
The Natami will have unique hardware and needs to keep optimised, so it will be hard to stay compatible even with Amiga OS3 as the default OS.
OS3/Natami incompatible with OS4.x
The only way forward would be to support AROS, which is very much AmigaOS like.
AROS can be improved upon, and developed further, while trying to keep API compatibility with AmigaOS.
Why is this happening ?
Simply the inability for hardware to be released in large batches and lowering prices for all users to buy.
Also the incompatibility to the Amiga chipset breaks most AmigaOS software.
NON OS4 users dont exist it seems.
If OS4 developers are breaking compatibility then why should AROS keep compatibility ?
Natami is chipset orientated - keep the same chipset for all Amigas.
OS4 /SAM is graphics card orientated - get AmigaOS4 to run on specific gfx cards they can develope for.
people dont be upset with each platform, its just the view they believe is the direction forward and are commited to.
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Wouldn't it be better for AROS to focus on hardware that actually exists?
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Wake me up when either become more interesting :sleep:
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I thought some of the point with Natami was to be backwards compatible for OS3.x.
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My only Amiga was an Amiga 500 and it isn't currently working so even when people talk about Aros and other products, you can tell me a lot about it but remember that I have no clue as to what it is or why I would want it if and when I get another Amiga compatible.
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@kolla
I thought some of the point with Natami was to be backwards compatible for OS3.x.
Didn't you get the memo? Natami is the cure for cancer and it will also fix the global warming.
creeping featurism (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/C/creeping-featurism.html)
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kolla wrote:
I thought some of the point with Natami was to be backwards compatible for OS3.x.
It is, and IMHO should be.
Let us not forget what the Natami is all about. In many ways it's the ultimate classic Amiga. Does it even need AROS? the idea is to use a full Amikit install, I like that.
Let's not delude ourselves, the Natami is a niche machine for enthusiast's.
It could be a thin client or netbook etc... but that being the case I ask again, does it need AROS?
I'm happy with AROS being an option but I think a full OS3.9 Amikit install is the best choice for Natami.
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it will.
But im looking how far can AmigaOS 3 take us ?
When Natami is out, ppl will develope for its 3D features - is it compatible with other OS3 systems ? no if they dont have Natami - or more specifically if they dont have the SuperAGA chipset then they cannot use the 3D functions of the Natami.
Those 3D functions will have to be simulated and crawl on other systems. See the problem ?
If Natami is compatible with Amikit and Winuae is optimized for the 3D function then it could run at a workable speed.
My point is how can Amiga OS3 continue to develope without source code.
Natami could remain using Amikit, but can we still get out transperent windows ? and other stuff ?
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More and more software for OS4.1 is breaking compatibility with AmigaOS3 and more software is becoming OS4 only.
thank good we move forward.. aos3.1 is only important for outdated old games and that we have the minimig for.
aros is going nowhere, its put on the shelves to collect dust, after the break up within the aros team. anubis is the new os where aros continue.....
read here...
http://www.osnews.com/story/20516/Former_AROS_Developers_Start_New_OS_Project_Much_Secrecy
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ddniUK wrote:
Wouldn't it be better for AROS to focus on hardware that actually exists?
Yeah, a perfect candidate for the Natami would be Anubis then! ;-) :-D
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/
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When Natami is out, ppl will develope for its 3D features - is it compatible with other OS3 systems ? no if they dont have Natami - or more specifically if they dont have the SuperAGA chipset then they cannot use the 3D functions of the Natami.
I dont think anyone really gives a rats behind about the superaga + 3d capabilities of the natami. all people really want is new hardware to run old software. aka minimig + aga and faster cpu core + sdram.
imo the 3d + superaga is a lot of wasted developmental effort.
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asymetrix wrote:
When Natami is out, ppl will develope for its 3D features - is it compatible with other OS3 systems ? no if they dont have Natami - or more specifically if they dont have the SuperAGA chipset then they cannot use the 3D functions of the Natami.
Those 3D functions will have to be simulated and crawl on other systems. See the problem ?
Not at all, I take it you think this is a huge problem in regards to AGA vs. ECS vs. OCS as well?
If Natami is compatible with Amikit and Winuae is optimized for the 3D function then it could run at a workable speed.
My point is how can Amiga OS3 continue to develope without source code.
The same way it has since.. decades, if anyone is bothered to.
Natami could remain using Amikit, but can we still get out transperent windows ? and other stuff ?
Oh, that transprarent windows - that changes everything!
:lol:
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yakumo9275 wrote:
imo the 3d + superaga is a lot of wasted developmental effort.
I actually dont quite agree. The "SuperAGA" bit is appealing - Do I want to run DPaintV and do animations on 1024x768 HAM8 non-interlaced and thereabouts in decent speed? Yes, please - thank you very much!
As for 3D - I'm not quite sure, depends how it is done and how old m68k software can use it.
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>As for 3D - I'm not quite sure, depends how it is done
I suppose it will be some kind of Warp3D emulation so all the (few) existing 680x0 3D softwares will run
But i suppose only...
Alain Thellier
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I never stops to amaze me how any reason flies out of the door as soon as someone whiffs some imaginary super amiga at people.
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It's still a worthwhile product IMHO, providing in delivers. Natami's team have been better then certain other developers in keeping us up to date. The project does at least seem to have some drive so I'll remain optimistic for now. :-D
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Piru wrote:
I never stops to amaze me how any reason flies out of the door as soon as someone whiffs some imaginary super amiga at people.
I understand that you think the natami project is total waste of time and energy, and wont go anywhere. Then again - pot calling kettle black - look who's talking, if it isnt someone from the Blue Camp, where the prosperous future is all laid out and everything is happy-lala :-D
If someon wants to persue their interests and try to build a new enhanced amiga chipset... what the heck is wrong with that? Oh right, they'd have to be mad! :-o
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@Piru
Hey, at least it shows there's some demand for it! ;-)
I find it a very interesting project and think it would be very cool if they can deliver. I am a bit sceptical about the the project being real to say the least. To say it another way I haven't put any money aside for this.
There's a big silence from the Natami team now that real prototypes should have arrived. Also a lot of questions about how all the enhancements will be supported in OS3.x are unanswered. I will believe when I see it with my own eyes.
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@kolla
pot calling kettle black - look who's talking, if it isnt someone from the Blue Camp, where the prosperous future is all laid out and everything is happy-lala
Last I checked we delivered - on schedule.
If someon wants to persue their interests and try to build a new enhanced amiga chipset... what the heck is wrong with that?
The designs are totally unrealistic. It will never complete as described on the website.
It's sad actually, at first the plans were somewhat realistic, at least. Since then everything and the kitchen sink have been added, making it virtually impossible for the project to ever complete.
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people is weird, someones tells that morphos for ppc macminis is a waste of time and at the same time they are amazed with a computer that is only rumours and hype, sorry guys i prefer the real things.
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A1260 wrote:
aros is going nowhere, its put on the shelves to collect dust, ...
Don't think so (see f.ex. VmwAROS (http://vmwaros.blogspot.com/)).
Staf.
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even if the natami team, which seems mostly to be just one person that doesnt talk much, isnt going to deliver, jens schoenfeld has undertook some steps to catch up. (with his at the moment c-one based a-clone project). just to remind: the only natami version anyone have seen on *.jpg's was also c-one based. if i was interested in a performance comparable to a500 i would bought that and got involved immediately. for the moment i have enough a4ks here to bother, so i will wait till the 68k_softcore will be enabled to run at multiple50mhz speed. nothing is lost just yet and a-clone might need aros_68k as well.
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@wawrzon
even if the natami team, which seems mostly to be just one person that doesnt talk much, isnt going to deliver, jens schoenfeld has undertook some steps to catch up. (with his at the moment c-one based a-clone project)
Clone-A is not C=1 based. Clone-A is bunch of pin compatible replacement chips (Denise, Gary, Paula and CIA). At later stage those can also be merged to a single chip machine.
A500 loaded with Clone-A custom chips (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=1985=13)
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@piru: well not anymore. the replacement chips phase is now over. the c-one enchancement phase is ment as a development stadium and shall lead to a product that of course will not be posibble to squeeze into c-one fpga's. but this is now the case. i do not know if you read german, but here is the dedcated thread on a1k forum: www_a1k_org/forum/showthread.php?t=13391
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kolla wrote:
yakumo9275 wrote:
imo the 3d + superaga is a lot of wasted developmental effort.
I actually dont quite agree. The "SuperAGA" bit is appealing - Do I want to run DPaintV and do animations on 1024x768 HAM8 non-interlaced and thereabouts in decent speed? Yes, please - thank you very much!
You had better start writing that DPaintV now... because the existing software can't use anything beyond what the AGA chipset provides...
As for 3D - I'm not quite sure, depends how it is done and how old m68k software can use it.
The NatAmi could add anything to their chipset, but ALL existing software is going to be limited to what the AGA chips offered... all except RTG software, that is designed to run on GFX cards... but I'd rather buy a $10 GFX card than some weird Hobby FPGA with no software support....
Think for a bit!
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@wawrzon
Uh, aren't there any better ways to do this than to use seriously space-constrained C=1 ?
As far as I know there are very good FPGA development kits available these days. Way better than anything C=1 has to offer.
[EDIT]
Ah, the C=1 FPGA extender:
http://c64upgra.de/c-one/pics/FPGA_extender_proto.jpg
http://c64upgra.de/c-one/pics/c1extender_final.jpg
Fair enough, makes more sense now.
[/EDIT]
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A1260 wrote:
aros is going nowhere, its put on the shelves to collect dust, after the break up within the aros team. anubis is the new os where aros continue.....
read here...
http://www.osnews.com/story/20516/Former_AROS_Developers_Start_New_OS_Project_Much_Secrecy
Utter crap... AROS is doing just fine, right now Anubis is just a discussion group to plan the future...
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@bloodline:
well, the problem is, that of that 10$ gfx cards only voodoo series has some kind os warp3d support as far i know, both on classics/mediator (i have one) and above. so we seem to be seriously doomed to wait for that weird hobby superaga or for someone seriously dedicated to write warp3d drivers for something else.
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@bloodline
the existing software can't use anything beyond what the AGA chipset provides.
Exactly...
And for any current software to take advantage of the new graphics modes, new audio modes or 3D, you'd first need to write RTG drivers, AHI drivers and Warp3D drivers.
Those things don't just drop out of the sky. You can easily spend years on 3D drivers alone.
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@piru: i do not know. im not interrested in c_one or c64 as such for that matter. i was spectrum48 owner
no, serious: i think jens just want to sell some c-ones since they didnt get off once before
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@bloodline
They could "just" add a CGX/P96 and W3D drivers. If the hardware delivers it should be faster while keeping compatability.
Well in theory at least. Let's just wait and see if they ever deliver any hardware.
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Flashlab wrote:
@bloodline
They could "just" add a CGX/P96 and W3D drivers. If the hardware delivers it should be faster while keeping compatability.
Well in theory at least. Let's just wait and see if they ever deliver.
No FPGA in use right now will ever be as fast as even the cheapest GFX card you can buy...
If I want to run RTG software I use UAE... that way I can use the newest GFX card I own...
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in a soft-render mode?
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wawrzon wrote:
in a soft-render mode?
With the P96 UAECard drivers... better than my BVision...
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@bloodline: sure, but uae somehow always let me wait for something, be it displaying characters i have just put in. as i have already stated i would take any hw bwe it intel but i cant stand windows underneath.
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Lorraine wrote:
@ Bloodline
How is AROS doing fine? Care to elaborate? From my perspective it isn't usable as everyday OS yet and I have as much hope in that as NatAmi currently.
Well I've seen nothing but a dodgy photo of some electronics, which claim to be "NetAMI"... AROS though, I can happily download an install on my Computer works fine... I can play with the provided software, certainly it's about as useful as my Amigas...
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wawrzon wrote:
@bloodline: sure, but uae somehow always let me wait for something, be it displaying characters i have just put in. as i have already stated i would take any hw bwe it intel but i cant stand windows underneath.
That is just prejudice. I suffer no such arrogance.
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no prejudice allthough i might be consider arrogant (sometimes). i use windows allright for what i need it. but, im not gonna pay ms to be able to run amiga, not after recent experience.
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wawrzon wrote:
no prejudice allthough i might be consider arrogant (sometimes). i use windows allright for what i need it. but, im not gonna pay ms to be able to run amiga, not after recent experience.
No need to give M$ any money (I don't), run UAE in Linux, or my choice: OSX
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nor apple for that matter. i consider aos or compatible an alternative not an (questionable) extention or an abstraction layer for existing os'es.
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One thing that aros is doing right!! booting!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=484-mjrvlsg)
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Ah, the smell of vapourware in the morning....
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/
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bloodline wrote:
kolla wrote:
yakumo9275 wrote:
imo the 3d + superaga is a lot of wasted developmental effort.
I actually dont quite agree. The "SuperAGA" bit is appealing - Do I want to run DPaintV and do animations on 1024x768 HAM8 non-interlaced and thereabouts in decent speed? Yes, please - thank you very much!
You had better start writing that DPaintV now... because the existing software can't use anything beyond what the AGA chipset provides...
Which is quite sufficient. AGA offers 1024x768 HAM already (and more for that matter), the only extra features would be non-interlaced (which Indivision-AGA fixes already) and speed. So, SuperAGA, as ordinary AGA only with more and faster RAM, would be just fine.
As for 3D - I'm not quite sure, depends how it is done and how old m68k software can use it.
The NatAmi could add anything to their chipset, but ALL existing software is going to be limited to what the AGA chips offered... all except RTG software, that is designed to run on GFX cards... but I'd rather buy a $10 GFX card than some weird Hobby FPGA with no software support....
Think for a bit!
And again, what AGA offers is quite OK, the only problem is ram for higher colour depths/resolutions, and speed.
And I really dont give a rat's ass about how much you want to spend on a gfx card. It's about time people like you realize that this is a hobby and that people are in this for the fun and the challange, and not much else. I guess the entire C64 scene doesnt make much sense to you, huh? Frankly I dont see why you bother hanging around on amiga sites when clearly, all you want you can buy at any electronics store.
I mean, seriously... think for a bit! :lol:
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IMHO I see nothing wrong with the trends. OS4 is the future for Amiga Platform, as are some other's, such as MorphOS, perhaps AROS, all these have one thing in common, they are trying to be here for thefuture.
If you want old hardware and would like new things for it, dont expect os4 users to make things backwards compatible to your old hardware, if we all did this, Amiga will never have a chance to survive for potential future new users towards the platform.
ANyway, just my 2 cents worth.
And er, we are not planning, as a future development Co. to be creating apps and games that run on anything less than os4 onwards and morphos 2 onwards. I can not see a point in this for new users to the platform, or better said, to attract new users to the platform.
Mac platform has been also a consideration.
The mac Mini idea is grand, as that PPC hardware stopped in 2006, but that is still a lot of potential users to use AOS4.1 or MOS2.1 in conjuction with their Mac OS.
CHeers.
Have a nice evening/day.
8-)
We are hoping to be online next year, not sure when though.
AND
Apparently according to forums talk, havent already 1300 sams been sold recently to run os4.1?? And werent a total of around 5000 or more a1's sold at the time?? then theres the pegasos's and efika's running MOS2 or greater.
Hopefully in near future we can enjoy 2.5 ghz machines, but then, anything can happen with the amiga community. None of us expected hardware to be available for os4, until it happened and was announced.
PATIENCE is a virtue. 8-)
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If AmigaDos could be ported to Intel it could take advantage of the low price/performance ratio. Maybe Hyperion could work out a deal offering AmigaDos as an option on EEE PC. Clearly two ports would help. OpenOffice 3 and Apple Webkit. People might be willing to try an alternative OS if
1) they could have a full system for €300.
2) they can do word processing and web browsing
3) if they didn't like it they could run MS Windows or dual boot it
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@bloodline
If the FPGA solution is significantly faster than classic Amigas with Zorro cards then it's good enough, I reckon.
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persia wrote:
3) if they didn't like it they could run MS Windows or dual boot it
Er, excuse me, but I think many realise how bad windows is as an OS via the programming side of things. It has been shetly coded overall.THat is why vista is worse than xp.
Anyway. that aside
I can agree to your other statements for many sheep like people, who may be seeking an alternate OS and system
THis is why it would be handy if AOS and MOS were availble ot people with PPC mac hardware for now, that would gain some users towards Amiga related OS's via a duel boot sequence, and would allow the Amiga platform to grow a little more yet again. :-D
In terms of ms users, most have just become used to their {bleep}ty os they are running, but would find they do not really need it at home as well, and only require it during working hours.
This could be a potential for mac, amiga and linux, and why many of us havent touched ms at home at all since.
:-D
my 2 cents worth again. :lol:
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With the "Big Gun", Gunnar dropping off the Natami forums, I think many people are coming to the realization that he's full of {bleep}.
The idea of Natami is attractive, but cost prohibitive in my opinion, and its appeal is limited only to enthusiasts.
Gunnar was just piggybacking off the Natami developers hard work. Now that Natami is slipping into Vaporware, expect Gunnar to make even more infrequent appearances on natami.net
Better to concentrate on the C-One or Minimig if you want to resurrect the amiga in hardware form.
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@Gebrochen
I'm not sure where you got your figure of 1300 sams from and 5000 AmigaOne's sounds like speculation from a few years back. Evert Carton said there were less than 1000, it's somewhere in the court documents.
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The 1300 figure has been hinted at by Acube. Acube is a privately held company and therefore does not have to report sales figures. Take it with a grain or two of salt.
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@kolla
Which is quite sufficient. AGA offers 1024x768 HAM already (and more for that matter), the only extra features would be non-interlaced (which Indivision-AGA fixes already) and speed. So, SuperAGA, as ordinary AGA only with more and faster RAM, would be just fine.
And that you dont need special Amiga monitor to display that 1024x768 from AGA.
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@Gebrochen
And werent a total of around 5000 or more a1's sold at the time??
Hell, no. The whole Amiga community is maybe less than 5000 users.
As far as SAM, Pegasos and Efika are concerned their sales do not reflect with number of Amiga users. A1 was sold only to Amiga enthusiasts but Pegasos was found on non-Amiga markets and Efika and SAM have their targets at embedded customers.
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bloodline wrote:
wawrzon wrote:
no prejudice allthough i might be consider arrogant (sometimes). i use windows allright for what i need it. but, im not gonna pay ms to be able to run amiga, not after recent experience.
No need to give M$ any money (I don't), run UAE in Linux, or my choice: OSX
Yup... Thats what ran through my head too..
I ran uae years ago over a cutdown linux system.. Recently I've been playing with XAmiga on a throwaway box.. I mean the kind of box you could pick up for 50 bucks nowadays.
Boots right in - runs like a charm - and like your saying, not paying a cent to Microsoft.
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@ ITIX:
Your way wrong on that one dude.
There are already 5000 amiga users in germany alone, infact, europe is one of the biggest markets left for amiga as a whole, be it classic hardware or future hardware like sam and efika.
I know, IN america youd be lucky for 1000 users, and in australia 100(figure of speech)
Then theres the rest of europe left, that make up a total of atleast 10,0000 strong, one must not forget how the giant MS shet started out as, also only small in numbers. THe difference is, the amiga community stay in longer with the platform than the other platforms.
If we see Hyperion start porting the OS to mac ppc hardware, which stopped in 2006, thats a good start. Then theres PS3(if thatll ever happen, doubt it)
And after that maybe they go to the arm type of hardware Ive ben hearing about. :)
Cheers. :-D
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10000 ! Now I believe you if you count those who
also bought back an old A500 A1200 to play around with
at home.
But 10000 Users that uses Amiga daily or almost
daily, not a chance in the world. Cut the figure in half
and your more close to the truth. And I also believe it's not
possible to sell more than 3000 peices of something "Amiga"
even if the price would be right in 2008-2009.
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If AmigaDos could be ported to Intel it could take advantage of the low price/performance rati
It's too late to port AmigaDOS to the PC, Windows has replaced MSDOS already. :-D
An any case, AmigaDOS is said to be one of the worst parts of AmigaOS and should never have made it in. So maybe we should give it to PC users!
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Vanilla wrote:
If AmigaDos could be ported to Intel it could take advantage of the low price/performance rati
It's too late to port AmigaDOS to the PC, Windows has replaced MSDOS already. :-D
D1d 1t pr33mpt1v3ly mult1t6sk ? 6m1g6 ruuuuuuulz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:madashell: :rtfm: :flame: :destroy: :smack: :whack: :furious: :banana: :bow: :cheers: :popcorn: :violin: :devildance: .................................. :horse:
An any case, AmigaDOS is said to be one of the worst parts of AmigaOS and should never have made it in. So maybe we should give it to PC users!
IMO Exec provides some of the nicer programming interfaces in native amigaland. Later (2.0+) Intuition provides some goodness too (beside the junk offcourse). And yes (Amiga)DOS is one of the uglier parts, I'm sure it's pretty ugly in the inside as well as the outside, poor thing.
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kolla wrote:
Which is quite sufficient. AGA offers 1024x768 HAM already (and more for that matter), the only extra features would be non-interlaced (which Indivision-AGA fixes already) and speed. So, SuperAGA, as ordinary AGA only with more and faster RAM, would be just fine.
Just for the heck of it:
http://amiga.nvg.org/moro/Indivision_AGA/dpaint-1.jpg
http://amiga.nvg.org/moro/Indivision_AGA/dpaint-2.jpg
http://amiga.nvg.org/moro/Indivision_AGA/dpaint.png
DPaint4 is faster, uses less memory and looks better. And this time I let DPaint4 do the 24bit-to-HAM converting itself:
http://amiga.nvg.org/moro/Indivision_AGA/dpaint4.png
http://amiga.nvg.org/moro/Indivision_AGA/dpaint4-about.png
:-)
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You are right, 3000 max, which is still impressive for a machine that basically has no software to deal with the 21st Century....
Manu wrote:
10000 ! Now I believe you if you count those who
also bought back an old A500 A1200 to play around with
at home.
But 10000 Users that uses Amiga daily or almost
daily, not a chance in the world. Cut the figure in half
and your more close to the truth. And I also believe it's not
possible to sell more than 3000 peices of something "Amiga"
even if the price would be right in 2008-2009.