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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: hbarcellos on December 01, 2008, 05:29:31 PM
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I was again thinking: Wouldn't be great to run Amiga OS 4?
Then I started again to search for options: Sam440!
Well, I can buy one but... I would need to find other parts, including a case and then I would need to assemble it. Ok, I know how to assemble dummy modern pc parts but...
Wouldn't it be perfect to buy a MacMini and a fresh copy of OS4? I KNOW THIS IS A BAD, REALLY BAD QUESTION!
But, can someone please explain me why Amiga Inc does not allow the OS to be sold to any machine? Really...
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Sigh. Only Bill McEwen can answer your question and :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse:
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:horse:
somehow i doubt its up to only A Inc to allow this. Also, I doubt Apple would let them run anything on their hardware legally (if i was them i wouldn't, no need for another competing OS since Apple has their own). and finally other engineering issues discussed at length at this and other amiga forums... :horse: lol
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You can run legally linux on any Mac machine... and MOS is coming to Mac Mini. Which in my opinion is better and more finished product than OS4.1
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There's a lot of information on this thread.... Thanks.
Specially this one:
"It is quite a dilemma for those of us who want to do the right thing and would gladly pay for AOS4 if we had something we could run it on, knowing that someone out there right now is probably successfully running AOS4 on their MacMini, or other PPC Mac."
So... the word "lawsuit" appears several times. Is there a common sense about what it all about? Something related to licensing Amiga?
The Amiga brand is now from that Cell Phone game development company right? They have objections about Amiga OS 4.0?
If there's some legal stuff going on, preventing OS4 to be licensed to other machines like the MacMini, shouldn't also be preventing OS4 to be sold to classic Amigas with PPC and/or Sam440?
1) Who receives money every time an OS4 copy is sold?
2) This group/company (Hyperion?) want's to earn money selling the OS or selling hardware?
3) IF they want to make money selling hardware, they're making a terrible job! Why not just pack a complete set into an A1200-like case type (which is by the way leading the best looking Amiga model pool)?
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maybe one day Hyperion will release an offical Moana for the Mac Mini but right now it's :horse:
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Just found that on arstechnica:
"The elephant in the room
At the time of writing, Hyperion is still in the middle of a lawsuit brought by the company that contracted the development of the OS, Amiga Incorporated. The lawsuit hinges on the original OS4 development contract, signed in the wake of the dotcom crash of 2001, when Amiga Inc. had lost its funding and did not appear to be financially viable going forward. The deal specified that if Amiga Inc. were to declare bankruptcy, Hyperion Entertainment (which prior to the development of OS4 specialized primarily in porting games from Windows to the Mac, Amiga, and Linux) would gain full control of the rights to the OS.
Amiga Incorporated survived, but only through some sleight of hand that involved being purchased by a shell entity known as KMOS, which acquired Amiga's assets piecemeal and then changed its name to Amiga Incorporated (Washington) once the original Amiga Incorporated (Delaware) dissolved. Now that we're in the middle of the second dotcom boom, the new Amiga Inc. has additional funding sources and wants control of the OS back. Hyperion, on the other hand, maintains that the "escape clause" should be in effect.
Making matters worse, the original hardware manufacturer, Eyetech, that produced the AmigaOne and AmigaOne Micro motherboards ran into trouble when a crucial chip manufacturer (Taiwan-based MAI Logic) went bankrupt. No new AmigaOne boards are being produced, and while Amiga Inc. has announced that new, licensed, hardware for OS4 is underway, such announcements have been mere vapor so far.
Not giving up
Such a dismal situation would mean the end of most computer platforms, but Hyperion is not throwing in the towel. Not all is doom and gloom: the OS is solid and evolving, and there are many places it could go. The announcement of support for the SAM440 motherboards is just a start: there is a large existing base of PowerPC-based Macintoshes that could easily be made to run OS 4.1, and the low RAM requirements of the OS would make it perfect for running on Sony's PlayStation 3 or on any number of mobile platforms. After all, hardware is typically the easier side of the platform equation: it's the software side that takes the time. OS 4.0 was already a quantum leap forward for the Amiga operating system, but 4.1 takes it to the next level. "
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So, looks like the Cell Phone Game Company is fighting to gain control over the Amiga OS again?
That makes sense, but, why it prevents them to release other ports? It should prevent them to sell anything for any platform...
Maybe they're holding other ports because those would generate real profits! :D
:rtfm:
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@terminator4
I doubt Apple would let them run anything on their hardware legally (if i was them i wouldn't, no need for another competing OS since Apple has their own).
That is just laughable excuse. You've bought the hardware, and as such you have right to run whatever software you want on it. What apple can do, however, is to try disable hacked versions of their own software (read: hosing unlocked iphones on firmware update for example). Clearly this does not apply to 3rd party OSes.
My Mac Mini is running Linux and MorphOS in addition to Mac OS X. I've yet to hear from Apple legal department.
finally other engineering issues discussed at length at this and other amiga forums
What issues exactly? I don't see any issues.
As far as I can tell the only reason OS4 doesn't run on Mac Mini is because Hyperion decided against it. Clearly it can't be any licensing issue (see Sam440). I won't even try to speculate what the reason is.
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Whenever I come across any language in a license agreement that attempts to limit my fair use rights, I ignore it. Copyright law, both in the United States and abroad, has been twisted beyond recognition. Copyright owners have no less control over their works in a digital format than they did in other formats, and the fact that most western nations (or perhaps just the US) spend more on copyright enforcement and contract litigation than they do on healthcare or feeding and clothing the poor speaks volumes about our misguided priorities.
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at hbarcellos
If you like to go the Mac Mini route, use MorphOS. IMO the smarter choice over OS 4.x anyway.
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Where can I find a real good comparison between MorphOS and Amiga OS 4? Feature by feature and etc...
And, is Mac Mini is officially supported or there's some hacking in the process?
And, finally, only Mac is supported? I have a really nice PowerMac G4 with an nvidia card here... in the closet...
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Just saw that: http://www.morphos.de/hardware.html
Only Radeons and 3dfx. That looks common on Amiga OSes. Just for curiosity why nvidia is not supported?
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hbarcellos wrote:
Just saw that: http://www.morphos.de/hardware.html
Only Radeons and 3dfx. That looks common on Amiga OSes. Just for curiosity why nvidia is not supported?
NVidia refuse to give anyone the developer documentation required to write a driver, and their own driver team won't develop for a platform with so few users (it's just a waste of money and time for them). It is theoretically possible to reverse engineer the drivers, but, seeing as AMD (ATI) are more cooperative, why bother?
Hans
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Didn't knew that. Actually some time ago, when I was playing with FreeBSD on my x86 box I found that only NVIDIA had 3d acceleration support. And I remember reading somewhere that Nvidia had better support to free operating systems. Now, you're telling me something different...
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hbarcellos wrote:
Wouldn't it be perfect to buy a MacMini and a fresh copy of OS4? I KNOW THIS IS A BAD, REALLY BAD QUESTION!
There is no official Mac Mini port so the only way to run Amiga OS 4.x on the Mac is to use the stolen Moana code that's floating around. This is, of course, illegal. Added to that, it only works on a few particular models/revisions of the Mac Mini, and, it is buggy (or so I'm told, I've never seen it).
If you want Amiga OS 4.x, just buy a SAM 440ep, and Amiga OS 4.1. That is available now, and officially supported.
Hans
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If you want Amiga OS 4.x, just buy a SAM 440ep, and Amiga OS 4.1. That is available now, and officially supported.
1) Just buy Sam440p
2) Just buy hardisk, power supply and other peripherals
3) Just find a case that fits
4) Put everything together
5) If you're not a case modder, just look to something that looks like a regular geek modded pc, maybe with UV LED fans all around.
With all respect to Sam440p, which I'm sure it is a great product, I don't want to buy it. I don't know exactly why I don't, but I don't.
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@hbarcellos
I remember reading somewhere that Nvidia had better support to free operating systems. Now, you're telling me something different...
Nvidia drivers are closed source and proprietary. AMD provides documentation for anyone who asks (at least for the slightly older chipsets).
So for anyone actually developing the drivers Nvidia is out of the question.
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hbarcellos wrote:
Didn't knew that. Actually some time ago, when I was playing with FreeBSD on my x86 box I found that only NVIDIA had 3d acceleration support. And I remember reading somewhere that Nvidia had better support to free operating systems. Now, you're telling me something different...
Not at all, NVidia wrote the drivers for FreeBSD/Linux themselves. Those drivers are not open-source.
Hans
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How much money has MOS made from its sales? Has it paid any of its developers? How serious of a company are they? Did they reach any agreement with Apple? Those would be the questions of a business man, not just an technology professional.
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hbarcellos wrote:
If you want Amiga OS 4.x, just buy a SAM 440ep, and Amiga OS 4.1. That is available now, and officially supported.
1) Just buy Sam440p
2) Just buy hardisk, power supply and other peripherals
3) Just find a case that fits
Or, just buy a complete package, such as can be found here (http://SAM 440ep is a mini-ITX board, so any Mini-ITX case will work.) or here (http://www.vesalia.de/?V02b0f14585f471a77585655520a514e01101f095441475205014d1718457212087f766c34323e756e0c0a2c657f2e39291b39621d13383a27307f7b286b6a69654511746473487948411219131f0c164155262c79185454475f4c5b5d464f1a4c6c21517927647a3908524).
5) If you're not a case modder, just look to something that looks like a regular geek modded pc, maybe with UV LED fans all around.
SAM 440ep is a mini-ITX board, so any Mini-ITX case will work; they are available. These cases can be bought easily (http://www.pp.co.nz/Cases-MiniITX.php) here in New Zealand, so it shouldn't be hard to get a hold of.
With all respect to Sam440p, which I'm sure it is a great product, I don't want to buy it. I don't know exactly why I don't, but I don't.
Well, it's your call. Complaining about there being no port for the Mac Mini won't get you an Amiga OS 4.1 machine. The SAM 440ep is what's available. Hopefully the SAM 440ep-flex will be available be Christmas too, but there's no guarantee. As an OS 4.1 user myself, I think that it's a great system (although I have an A1-XE G4, not a SAM).
Hans
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@terminator4
Did they reach any agreement with Apple?
Any business man asking that doesn't deserve to be in the tech business.
That's as absurd as a company selling linux would need to reach an agreement with say Dell or Lenovo.
For the last time, no-one needs any permission from Apple to write, install, or run any software on a Mac.
Also, I'd be interested to know why would any business man give a damn how much MorphOS has made from the sales, or if the MorphOS developers have been paid and how much. It would matter if the company was traded, but otherwise that's just load of bollocks.
And finally: Anyone with a clue can figure out that no-one can make a living with this. That wasn't the case 10 years ago, 5 years ago, and it certainly isn't the case now either. There are other motivations involved than money.
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@Piru
As a user yes no one will care or knock at your house doors. It may be laughable to you, but I'm thinking like a company not as a user. If i'm selling an OS and targetting a manufacturer's hardware (surely you will say that it works on macmini), is there legal issues? (there must be, have you consulted a lawyer to confirm there isn't any???). What is Morphos legal status-does Genesi own it or is it like AROS? Has Apple provided MorphOS development team with all the documentation? With linux, even if you had grounds to sue, what company / who would you go after? MorphOS - is it still supported by Genesi? Does Genesi pay you or other developers or do you "develop for free" as with Linux?
How about SAM440? how do you know it's legal, and not a licensing issue? (last time i heard there was no information on this issue or has it changed??)
Those are some of my questions. :-)
Piru wrote:
That is just laughable excuse. You've bought the hardware, and as such you have right to run whatever software you want on it. What apple can do, however, is to try disable hacked versions of their own software (read: hosing unlocked iphones on firmware update for example). Clearly this does not apply to 3rd party OSes.
My Mac Mini is running Linux and MorphOS in addition to Mac OS X. I've yet to hear from Apple legal department.
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@ Piru
How much money has MOS made from its sales?
- if MorphOS is not financially driven, and like Linux, then thats fine. It would also make sense why no one cares about legality and why they are willing to go minimac. That may be different from OS4 then. Thats why i mentioned it and I know very little about Morphos hence i asked. But i think selling your own hardware and software raises more funds for a company like Hyperion/Acube. And that may be this other reason (assuming there's no legalities).
How serious of a company are they? Did they reach any agreement with Apple?
- If you're buying software for company, and you run an OS at a company, you'd want to know this... cause companies can and do sue companies. Also if i'm buying an OS for business use, knowing who i'm dealing with etc.
Anyway, why the hostility, are you like full time developer there or something? No kidding, its impossible to generate income from Amiga since like 1994...
anyway crack open a beer - we are all amigans here! :cheers:
Edit: I guess you are developer on Morphos. Apologies if comments/questions were out of context.
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@terminator4
is there legal issues?
There are none.
What is Morphos legal status
MorphOS legal status is just fine, as it has always been.
Has Apple provided MorphOS development team with all the documentation?
No. They haven't been asked for any, either. Nor have any NDAs been signed. No MorphOS source code breaches any Apple IP.
how do you know it's legal, and not a licensing issue?
Because Apple cannot impose a license like that. No-one can.
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hbarcellos wrote:
Just found that on arstechnica:
"At the time of writing, Hyperion is still in the middle of a lawsuit brought by the company that contracted the development of the OS, Amiga Incorporated. The lawsuit hinges on the original OS4 development contract, signed in the wake of the dotcom crash of 2001, when Amiga Inc. had lost its funding and did not appear to be financially viable going forward. The deal specified that if Amiga Inc. were to declare bankruptcy, Hyperion Entertainment (which prior to the development of OS4 specialized primarily in porting games from Windows to the Mac, Amiga, and Linux) would gain full control of the rights to the OS.
Amiga Incorporated survived, but only through some sleight of hand that involved being purchased by a shell entity known as KMOS, which acquired Amiga's assets piecemeal and then changed its name to Amiga Incorporated (Washington) once the original Amiga Incorporated (Delaware) dissolved. Now that we're in the middle of the second dotcom boom, the new Amiga Inc. has additional funding sources and wants control of the OS back. Hyperion, on the other hand, maintains that the "escape clause" should be in effect."
[/size][/i]
So, looks like the Cell Phone Game Company is fighting to gain control over the Amiga OS again?
That makes sense, but, why it prevents them to release other ports? It should prevent them to sell anything for any platform...
Maybe they're holding other ports because those would generate real profits! :D
:rtfm:
Ok, and what about that? The Cell Phone game development company want the rights over Amiga OS4? They want Hyperion to stop using the Amiga name?
And to MorphOS team, it really looks like that you guys have a superior product. Maybe the reason because AmigaOS caught more attention is (of course) because of the "Amiga" name?? :)
Why not try to set an agreement with this case-modding company :) http://www.commodoregaming.com, and maybe create a special PPC ITX computer (cpu + keyboard in one piece) powered with a renamed MorphOS to Commodore OS or something similar? I can BET the profits would be considerable. Something like a fun computer with a low entry price with DVI output along with 15khz outputs???
How difficult is that? Commodore guys would at least try to produce something barely related to a Business Plan...
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Wouldn't it be perfect to buy a MacMini and a fresh copy of OS4?
The Hyperion core devs have explained many times why they are incapable of porting OS4 to the Mac.
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jorkany wrote:
Wouldn't it be perfect to buy a MacMini and a fresh copy of OS4?
The Hyperion core devs have explained many times why they are incapable of porting OS4 to the Mac.
And what was their explanation?
:-?
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takemehomegrandma,
And what was their explanation?
The documentation for the Mac motherboards is impossible to onbtain.
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jorkany wrote:
takemehomegrandma,
And what was their explanation?
The documentation for the Mac motherboards is impossible to onbtain.
OK.
However, the MorphOS team is obviously doing it, and they are not the first...
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Because Apple cannot impose a license like that. No-one can.
Not in the general case, but Nintendo did successfully sue Tengen over unlicensed software. Apple, however, doesn't require licenses (iPhone/iPod Touch excluded, if you want to use iTunes for distribution), as we all know.
It's a damned, good thing I don't have to contact Intel or Freescale for permission every time I fire up a compiler. Like most of us though, I build my own systems. Perhaps Microsoft should be paying me for the right to run Windows on my hardware. Alas, system integrators pay Microsoft. It doesn't work the other way around.
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The documentation for the Mac motherboards is impossible to onbtain.
And that's not stopped anyone else from reverse engineering the bits that needed it.
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The questions have been raised here and other places about the state of MOS development, as in, who owns it? Are the developers getting paid? It has also been said that wouldn't matter to a potential partner.
You bet your bottom dollar it does! If I'm a company wanting to run MorphOS on my set top box (just an example!) and spend millions of dollars on product rollout, etc.-then I want to know FOR SURE that the company who makes it is stable, that they have the right to use/sell the IP they're selling me, that the devs won't bail from lack of payment or after the first product release finds all the bugs that the testers didn't. A real, in house QA department is also good for warming the {bleep}les of potential vendor's hearts :-)
Never underestimate the ability of a potential partner to show up at your office (yes, an actual office somewhere that isn't someone's basement!) and see a legitimate 9 to 5 style effort being made at producing, maintaining and updating code. Especially when said potential partner is going to bet his company's, and probably his own, future on the product you are selling him.
Maybe us hobbyist types are the guinea pigs, if you will, the test bed for MorphOS in genesi's eyes. (For us, it doesn't matter if it's coded in a basement as a hobby, we eat that stuff up!) If it succeeds well and makes a buck or two in this small arena, we will be the ones helping them make sure it's mature enough to pitch to the bigger, outside world.
Just my two cents.
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Trev wrote:
The documentation for the Mac motherboards is impossible to onbtain.
And that's not stopped anyone else from reverse engineering the bits that needed it.
We know that the Moana project by ACube was a port to Mac-Mini so the no documentation thing doesn't hold. Hyperion Entertainment decided that it didn't make business sense to do the port, so they're not going to do it. I'm a little surprised that they see no point in taking the Moana project and finishing it off, but it's their decision. If someone else wanted to do the port, and showed Hyperion a suitable business plan, I'd expect them to consider it.
Hans
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Absolutely correct, with a hardware link they make money on both the software and hardware. If they were to port it to Mac Mini they wouldn't make any money off that hardware. I don't understand why Hyperion are so reticent to just say this...
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@Tron2k2
The days of world domination are long over. The only way to keep such thing sustainable is to keep it a hobby. Paying the developers fully would burn millions per year, and these millions just aren't there.
Just my 0 eurocents.