Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: DonnyEMU on September 02, 2003, 09:00:27 AM
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Things I want to see in a new AmigaOS..
1) a new unified driver model that supports 64bit and 128 bit OS..
2) Amiga Update online (like Windows Update) keep up to date with stuff..
3) Better 3D support (not just openGL) but a 3d UI and up-to-date 3d cards..
4) driver roll back model (one touch rollback) and system rollback.
5) Software add remove from prefs.. A unified place to uninstall software
what new would you like to see?
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5) is something I agree with..
The installer system ought to be reworked:
- a unified place for all install logs (and each install must create a proper install log)
- in addition to the files being copied and additions to the user startup, the install log should have mentions about where in envarc the config files are going to be, etc..
- an if exists s:postremove statement in the startup-sequence, that will execute the s:postremove script to clean up things the uninstaller couldn't remove
Perhaps some day, perhaps never.. Perhaps in AmigaOS, perhaps in MorphOS, perhaps in AROS.. :-)
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@DonnyEMU
I agree with them all apart from a 3D UI - this is what I said in a recent AW thread:
Re: Future directions for AOS GUI
IMO 3D GUIs are a waste of time until VR headsets and gloves come as standard - there's no point in having more dimensions than you can view at once, as it just makes it more fiddly to use - its probably that M$ feel they have to cram in more bloat :roll:
Even when that hardware becomes availible, remember that the eye is still primarily a 2D device - stereoscopic vision is a start, but true 3D would be very different (you'd be able to see all sides of an object at once). Until computers connect directly to the brain, thats not going to be possible. So why don't designers look at other senses - for instance integrating sound into the "GUI" better?
Of course, other parts of the GUI would be far easier to touch up like icons. They should at least be truecolour with an alpha channel, but I'd like to see vector based icons as they could scale so well.
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@ DonnyEMU
You don't want much, do you?
1) a new unified driver model that supports 64bit and 128 bit OS..
You mean to cater for that processor that we've got no hardware support for, and that non-existent processor?
4) driver roll back model (one touch rollback) and system rollback.
You've been using Windows waaaaay too long.
what new would you like to see?
"Windows clone mode" apparently would be a desired feature... ick.
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No, i agree. Driver rollback and system restore is about the only good thing of windows XP. (SysRes on winME and 98 is useless). I think it would be a good idea anyhow.
Kev
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I would like somebody to come up with an example of when they have needed to "roll back" a device driver on AmigaOS... I know I've never needed to do this (and it is under most circumstances just a case of copying one file anyway, so not exactly rocket science)
Chris
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As President Reagan used to say.. "There you go again"..
I used to work for an Amiga dealer and I can think of hundreds of examples where some special library wasn't installed or some device wasn't functional because they installed a bad driver (Supra Hard Drives and C'Ltd.) were the worst for this. Even with Autoconfig some memory expansions and accelerators required more than addmem and the 68040 library to get working again..
That was when you coud walk in to a store buy new hardware not thru mail order or on e-bay and have a dealer to support you.
There is a whole site full of just Amiga install disk sets out there with the latest drivers etc. there.
I know several folks out there who couldn't get their Amiga USB or ethernet card working because they had out of date libraries (ARP, ARQ, or how about missing MCC files)..
You don't have to be brain dead to realize that the need for an enhanced installer that keeps a record of all files that have been changed and could roll you back to the previous configuration (returning your OS startup sequence to the way it was Not just an Uninstall, but an archive) might be a good thing.. Especially supporting high resolution graphics cards. Here's a did you know, I was at Microsoft Meltdown 2003 and listening to the QA staff of LucasArts giving a presentation. One of the facts they quoted is they have to support over 41 major graphics cards that are PCI right now with different capabilities per each card. If the AmigaOne is PCI you guys will be in that same mess ;-)
My tech support hell I remember when I was the manager of an Amiga dealer was talking someone over the phone how to use ED and the CLI..
If you think Amiga's just have "one file" that needs to be changed or replaced back, then there is some history that you need to be filled in on.. I am sure that this kinda thing doesn't change in the future. Plus how many people have "aminet" replacements for commands etc. in their system that have minor incompatibilities etc.
If the Amiga is to come back and have "new" users that are not intimate with the system OS at the command line level, which we are all hoping for, then there needs to be some sort of enhancement like I talked about, or some "safe mode" that users can fall back to if their drivers fail to work etc.
I am all for an "Amiga Update" online as better versions of what you have on your machine is available they are smart enough to get placed in your machine automatically. For my work machine I'd never go back to not having "automatic updates"
of my virus checker brain files, my OS libs etc..
There needs to be one place that will install these automatically. And that's not rocket science.. In fact I think Innovatronics long ago announced something like "amiga washer" or something like that..
Having online updating is not there because you have crappy coders or a flawed OS.. it's there so that you can keep up-to-date without thinking about it.
How silly thinking a release code product is bug free or will never need changes.. I would like to see the number of bugs hyperion has on the "bug testing database" that they actually release OS 4 with. I would bet you that it's higher than anyone will actually admit to. There are always a certain number of bugs in any software project that are unavoidable and low priority fixes.
I also have been using an Amiga since V27.3 Kickstart, and I well remember the OS swallowing memory and not giving it back, and "Amiga_Fireworks_Mode", which was pretty spectacular. You can't program without oddities and quirks appearing.. If you tell me that, you aren't a good developer. You can keep them down however.
If Hyperion were smart they'd set up "Amiga Update" on a website (with an automatic script) and charge yearly membership to updates and open it to the entire development community who might wanna offer updates and patches online..
What an idea, and it makes money after the fact.. Hmm... Could I be on to something?
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Please be to ask you:
Which thread to please to post to??
I'm confused??
http://amiga.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10788&forum=9 (http://amiga.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10788&forum=9)
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3918 (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3918)
or????
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@ DonnyEMU
I've never suggested AmigaOS is bug-free or at the peak of the OS development pinnacle, ever. However that does not mean everything should be done on it just like how it's done on Windows.
I don't use Windows Update. The detection system for patches is extremely poor, if you read the NTBugTraq list, there are emails on it all the time how patches re-appear on the list of patches to install even though they've been installed before, the patch installation management system in Windows is absolutely horrendous. Also, I don't want to have to leave my machine dialled up for hours on end to download half a million patches, every time I reinstall my machine.
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If you think about the diversity of hardware that windows update runs on and the mix and match of the hardware etc, it's actually great. I will also defend this in saying that most folks in the USA are on cable/DSL which makes windows update mostly instantaneous.
Windows update is there to me for the most serious architecture problems. The service pack release downloads are available and HOTFIXES work great..
You really need to be on a non-dial up system like most US computer users to see the speed and beauty of windows update or even symantec's live update. Sorry you are stuck with Dial-in.. I guess we are pretty lucky here.. If it makes you feel any better I doubt an "Amiga Update" would have as many problems due to code size differences etc, or take as long to download.
With windows having to support everything in the world and a bazillion pc makers, it's much more difficult to claim all bugs are fixed or that manufacturers coming out with other stuff wont introduce more with new products. If you think about how many hardware folks are in the ball game it's a wonder that anything runs at all..
But I have had flawless updating with windows updates.
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If you think about the diversity of hardware that windows update runs on and the mix and match of the hardware etc, it's actually great.
This has nothing to do with the issue you perceive. Windows Update "does what it says on the tin" BADLY. For an OS like Windows, patches are critical, the delivery system needs to be perfect.
But I have had flawless updating with windows updates.
I'll tell you what, subscribe to the NTBugTraq mailing list, and read.
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If you think Amiga's just have "one file" that needs to be changed or replaced back, then there is some history that you need to be filled in on..
Okay, calm down. Perhaps my message could have been clearer that it was in my experience. The problems come when you try to add hardware which weren't envisaged by the OS designers. These ultimately have more than a couple of files and are rather hacky. Everything else, you should find only comprises of a couple of files. If hacks and patches are preventing the drivers from working, that's not really the OS's fault, is it? And this is easily solved by not running the hack or patch that is interfering.
That's my last comment on the matter, as I can tell I'm going to get flamed for suggesting people stop running their oh-so-essential really-nasty-and-unstable hacks and patches. I run some too, but they are the first thing to go when other stuff stops working.
Chris
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To you DonnyEMU and to all interested.
We are working on an unified installer application for the AmigaOS'es.
In several aspects it goes far beyond the things you've written down, but can't speak of details yet.
If we won't be able to develop the project I predict releasing all documentation and provide with every support from my company to the developers that will want to develop it.
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DonnyEMU wrote:
You really need to be on a non-dial up system like most US computer users to see the speed and beauty of windows update or even symantec's live update. Sorry you are stuck with Dial-in.. I guess we are pretty lucky here.. If it makes you feel any better I doubt an "Amiga Update" would have as many problems due to code size differences etc, or take as long to download.
Not to disagree, but Windows Update is actually one of the driving forces behind the 'broadband' uptake. When you can't keep using your machine (for all the worms and virii in the world), you pay what it takes to keep your stuff usable - and then, as Blaster victims found - fall victim anyway, because you still forgot to install the latest patch. ;)
Systems that can require trucking giant wads of source around (*BSD source trees and ports, Gentoo Linux's Portage, etc.) are another, even more effective motivator.
I doubt we'll have this problem with any Amiga solution, though, since the binaries should stay pretty lithe, and we can hope for fewer complexity-introduced bugs vs. 'the competition.'
BTW, if anyone knows of an even vaguely legal service offering streaming US-network television (I'd kill for PBS, even), PM me or something. If only the providers actually offered multicast...
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As a simple user I would like changs that effect the way I work.
1. A Load/Save requester that can expand into a full browser so I can move, delete, Search, copy files, etc.
2. Ability to set a window to 'Copy To'(green border?) and another to 'Copy From' (Red border?)so it is more difficult to confuse which is which.
3. Have the scroll bars to be on the edge closest to the centre of the screen.
4. A view that opens the drawer into a propper speadsheet type layout with full viewing and editing abilities.
Thanks
Valan
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Hi,
I have to say that I dont like the idea of these, I love OS3.9, it has everything I need, a PPC native OS3.9 would be my dream. :-)
1) a new unified driver model that supports 64bit and 128 bit OS..
Why? The current system works so well and 64bit drivers would work just fine on a 64bit CPU system, no new driver model is needed.. IMHO
2) Amiga Update online (like Windows Update) keep up to date with stuff..
The Amiga's OS doesnt get enough updates to make use of that and driver updates dont come out that often either.. how often have you needed to upgrade a driver? Now one to check for program updates, maybe, although definatly not the way Microsoft Update works. (Security hole, I have the post from ann.lu that gives you the link to delete specific files or all files from a harddrive using Windows update)
A 3rd party program, maybe, for game updates and things, but not part of the OS.
3) Better 3D support (not just openGL) but a 3d UI and up-to-date 3d cards..
Warp3D, As for adding new graphics cards, well thats a massive job, being a small platform you are going to fing that you cant just buy a PC graphics card and expect it to work.. as for an update, I dont know if it needs one, I havent got my 3D card to work yet. (I really should try sometime)
4) driver roll back model (one touch rollback) and system rollback.
It took a bit of time for me to just find out what driver/system rollback was. (for anyone else like me heres a quote from a "why to buy WinXP" website: you can escape trouble by rolling back your PC to a date or time before the problem occurred. Say you downloaded a defective software program, or you installed a faulty appliance and caused your system to crash.)
Ermm.. I guess I just like a basic OS because I would rather use something like Snoopdos to track down and fix the problem and not some sort of undo button which doesnt actually fix the problem.
5) Software add remove from prefs.. A unified place to uninstall software
Noooooooooo :-o
I love the way the Amiga installs software, everything to one folder, when you want to delete it you delete the folder and everything goes, now a program should be tidy as lots install libraries and fonts all over the darn place which I dont like, if its needed simply put an assign in the user-startup and if you delete the folder you just need to delete the bit from the user-startup, it couldnt be any easier.
Putting a program in to remove software will cause people to stick files all over the computer without any care of what happens if you rename a drawer or move the folder.
Things I am worried about with new versions of Workbench include:
Speed. why cant the OS be held on ROM? I love the Amiga there if you want to play a game without loading the full OS you can, I know that doesnt really apply to much with the different graphics and sound cards you can buy but maybe a Flash and a small program could get us back to the good old days?
Adding things you just dont need: I love the fact that Workbench is so simple, adding loads of things will make it more complicated, if they were extra's that as standard were not installed then thats great, some people love great looking screens, some dont, Im the latter. I know you can turn them off but can they be deleted?
Autoconfig: I know everyone wants PCI now but wouldnt it be good if Autoconfig could be added to the PCI standard? (Only on Amiga's, Im not saying we should redefine the international PCI standard or anything) Then if you had a PCI card made for the Amiga it would be all set up and done with, if you use PC or Mac PCI cards you stick the driver in the expansion drawer. (Do PCI SCSI cards have a ROM on them like ISA SCSI cards do?)
Standards: I would like the idea to just say you need to have this type of mouse (Say.. PS2 three button wheel mouse) and this type of DVD drive (set speed or better) and things like that, so the basics (mouse, DVD, etc) can work from the start and no visiable drivers have to be altered unless you want to use a none standard device, DVD speed and things like that will also help with programming.
As for the looks, well as long as it looks and acts like Workbench 3.1/3.9 I will be happy.
In the end I guess its just what you want from an OS, everyone has there own dream OS, mine just happens to be OS3.9. :-D
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mikeymike wrote:
I've never suggested AmigaOS is bug-free or at the peak of the OS development pinnacle, ever. However that does not mean everything should be done on it just like how it's done on Windows.
I don't use Windows Update.
Also, I don't want to have to leave my machine dialled up for hours on end to download half a million patches, every time I reinstall my machine.
How should it be done then?
Note, you don't *have* to have Windows Update being done automatically. I only use it when I want to, and I pick which updates I want.
The advantage is that there is a centralised place to go to to update OS components, and you can hand-pick things, and get them as soon as they are available, without having to wait until an entire update/service-pack/'boing-bag' is released.
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Valan wrote:
3. Have the scroll bars to be on the edge closest to the centre of the screen.
If you mean that they should dynamically change position, this seems a confusing and bad idea to me. In general, GUI components shouldn't change relative positions at all, so that the user doesn't have to hunt around to find them.
If you are thinking of cases where the window is partially off-screen (not that AmigaOS can even do this currently..) then I would suggest that scrollbars should switch to the left side of the window only in the case where they would be off the right edge of the screen.
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Oli_hd wrote:
The Amiga's OS doesnt get enough updates to make use of that and driver updates dont come out that often either.. how often have you needed to upgrade a driver?
You rarely *have* to upgrade (though I rarely have to on Windows). But it's still nice to upgrade to get better features - the problem on the Amiga is that I have no idea if or when upgrades are available.
Part of the problem is that there are a lot more libraries on the Amiga that are fairly fundamental parts of the system, but are 3rd parties (eg, MUI - I remember having to hunt around for ages trying to find the latest version of some MUI custom classes), but hopefully this will be less of an issue in future.
Now one to check for program updates, maybe, although definatly not the way Microsoft Update works. (Security hole, I have the post from ann.lu that gives you the link to delete specific files or all files from a harddrive using Windows update)
Well, I think it goes without saying that we don't want to duplicate any bugs or security holes ;) But what otherwise is wrong with the way it works? How should it work instead?
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Note, you don't *have* to have Windows Update being done automatically. I only use it when I want to, and I pick which updates I want.
Believe me, I know that :-) I don't use Automatic Updates or Windows Update.
I also know the theoretical benefits of WU, it just doesn't work very well.
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Hi mdwh2,
GUI components shouldn't change relative positions at all, so that the user doesn't have to hunt around to find them.
Unfortunately at the moment the scroll bars do need to be hunted and found. I would like them accessable at all times. If all windows on the left of the screen had their scroll bars on the right and vice a versa then there would be uniformity and it would be very obvious. If some windows had their scrollbars switched and some had not then, yes, it would be confusing as you suggest. I think that the default setting should be the centre of the Window/Palette. So a window being stretched from right to left would have the scrollbar jump from left to right.
Also, I think scroll bars are getting similiar to door handles, all shapes and sizes even different ways to use them but people figure them out pretty quickly.
OSX has areas that shift side of the main window and this does not confuse the user. This is heralded as a major feature of the email system and works very well.
I should have also added that scroll bars should move to be accessable if they are blocked by other objects.
Valan
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Ooh you mentioned Multi-cast.. Set my router afire and call Cisco for a firmware update. I used to work for MediaOne, a US-based Cable Internet provider. I was their regional webmaster. Yeah they don't exist anymore (swallowed up att-comcast), but they basically were one of the innovators behind cable internet delivery. We set up multi-cast on-demand delivery of hockey games and other local programming very early on as test of the technology. It was generation one streaming and yes it wasn't the best but it worked..
Now you talk to someone about multi-cast and network admins start locking down routers etc.. It's a sad world we live in where you can't even do regional delivery like this, due to corporate worries of 1) Litigation 2) profit model still not proven 3) Admins worried about bandwidth suckage 4) Admins being very selective with their routings.
The reality is that it's there, but the big companies of television (and their cohorts the cable companies) won't do it because they are worried what that might do to Television as MP3s and DivX and VCD/MPEGs have done to movies.
Imagine people watching tv on their computer screens and not on their TVs.. Someone's out money, plus interactive programming.. Scarey new world huh... On demand programming from the source eliminating the need for TV stations, a program could be found at a website for the download (or streaming)
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Sorry for my ignorance but is Multi-Cast anything like now tv (http://www.nowbroadbandtv.com/)?
Thanks
Valan
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1) a new unified driver model that supports 64bit and 128 bit OS..
You mean like nVidia's unified drivers? Instead of having a small, dedicated driver, it has a huge, monolithic installer? Please realize that the newest Detonator installer is a 20 Meg file. This had better not be the future.
128 bit OS? What would you do with *that* much memory?
2) Amiga Update online (like Windows Update) keep up to date with stuff..
Windows Updated doesn't work all that well because of the types of patches they release and how they are installed. A one-stop resource to download patches, a dedicated folder on your hard drive to archive them, and a standardized installer to run multiple patches consecutively (in the right order) is definatly a good idea.
Just so long as you can archive them. I hate having to re-download 100+ Megs of patches every time I re-install Windows.
3) Better 3D support (not just openGL) but a 3d UI and up-to-date 3d cards..
All in good time. By 3D UI, I sure hope you're referring to a MacOS-style method of object control, and not a 3D rendered interface. The most effective medium in our culture is still pencil and paper. A computer with a fully 3D UI is a pretty scary thought.
4) driver roll back model (one touch rollback) and system rollback.
Don't panic, people. Driver rollback doesn't have to mean hacking your registry to death.
What really needs to be done is develop a new driver database system, so you don't have files all over the place. Each installed driver resource should have its own database entry (or folder). Dumping everything in the System folder and tying it together with INI files and registry keys is unacceptable. 1st party drivers should ALWAYS be seperate from 3rd party drivers, so you always know what came with your computer verses what was added after sale. It also makes it MUCH easier to track spamware that way.
5) Software add remove from prefs.. A unified place to uninstall software
If you mean like a "Program Files" folder, I agree. If you mean like an Install Sheild installer, then... no! If all you have to do is copy a folder to your HD to install a program, why do you need an installer? The installer copies the folder, and sets config defaults.
what new would you like to see?
1) Seperate system/programs logical partitions. I've always felt that computers should have logical partitions (like assigns), to keep the system out of the way. I don't want swap files, temp folders, and log files mixed in with my app folders. I don't want a Program Files folder burried in my C drive next to the System folder and the Documents folder. Make it all seperate, and configurable. For me, the desktop is not a cache for program shortcuts, it's a work folder. The desktop should act like its own partition, much like "My Documents" under Windows (which I never use).
2) No more shared files. Every app, tool, util, or library should have its own folder, and all needed 3rd party libraries should be within the program folder. 1st party libraries should be distinguished by version numbers, so if multiple versions are available, you can specify which one should be used. As for updates, I think you should use the version of a library that was specifically designed for your app. If a new version of a shared library becomes available, it should be the responsibility of your software vendor to handle the updates. Shared files allows you to break everything all at once.
3) Flat file system. Lots of people I know have more than one drive or partition in their computer, an they are always running out of space. Drive C is full, drive D is empty. Let the OS figure out how to manage files. You can always override this system and force partition use the old fashioned way, if you want the safety and security benefits of multiple partitions.
4) Hot-swap backups. Turn on your second hard drive, backup, and shut it off, without needing to restart (like you can with USB 2.0 hard drives).
5) Seamless digital camera support. Crop your photos to standard printable sizes (4x6, 8x10...) and print on the fly, without needing a graphics program. DPOF support would be nice.
6) Fully remapable input. Direct Input made a big leap in this department. But, how about remapable keys for ANY device? Pushing a button on my mouse opens the task list, and a touchpad ONLY scrolls the display, instead of acting like a mouse replacement, like on a laptop. That would REALLY be a big help for me when using apps like Photoshop and Goldwave.
7) Zooming windows. See something close-up quickly, without using a clumsy "Magnify" tool.
8) Full search capabilities in file requesters. MagicRequester rules.
9) etc, etc, etc...
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Waccoon wrote:
128 bit OS? What would you do with *that* much memory?
Makes a note for future reference ;-)
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IIRC 64-bit limit is 8 terabytes isn't it? I think your future reference might be waiting a while, gnarly :-)
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Hi Jope,
And add the win-like "registry monster?"? No way.
The current way of installing of software is fine. Usually the program sits in it's own separate directoy, has "assigns" or two and viola.
Jack
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The current way of installing of software is fine.
Two things that would be useful though:
- if programs had in their readme what files they installed and where
- an uninstall mechanism (extension of installer?)
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What whould I like to see? OS4.
OS3.9 redone for PCC, OS3.x used where possible. DOpus5 redone for
PPC for those who want it.
Features can wait, we need a new OS yesterday.
I do not mind new features, but will it still be an amiga if these
features are needed just to get the thing to boot?
As long as any "auto-matic" features can be turned off or replaced
with other "hacks" for want of a better word (enhancements?
improvements?) or done manually by the user like Amiga is now!
If I wanted all these new "features" I would have got windows in 95.
BTW: I hope at the start it will be mainly developers buying the A1
OS4.0 machines and making the software to run on it.
Just my $5.72 cents (ajusted for inflation)
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Here's some annoyances from Windows2000. I appologise if these are irrelevant to AOS4.
I hope AOS4 will be consistant in the load and save dialogue boxes.
It is frustrating to have to re-navigate to the place where you have last been. Maybe this could be option. Save as... where the file was Opened or Save in the last place visited.
Another is the need to keep the 'View By' option consistant throughout the dialogue boxes. Multiple visits to the Open or Save dialogues should appear the same to the user rather than reverting back each time to the list view.
Rant over, just can't wait to get back to an Amiga OS.
Valan