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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: yaqube on November 18, 2008, 09:52:19 PM
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Hello!
As some of you may know I have been working on the Minimig's firmware. I would like you to express your opinions and suggestions what you like and what you don't in the current firmware (including user interface). I have already made some changes, e.g. the OSD menu is less transparent since with some background images it wasn't readable.
Please also feel free to tell me about the features you are missing and would like to have. Although there is almost no free space in the current FPGA and PIC to integrate any big features but some small modifications and extensions should be possible.
If you had found any games causing problems or not working at all please tell me their names.
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Hi Jakub,
First of all, thanks again for all the work you've done so far on the core.
As for what improvements I'd like to see, there are only a few:
1. "Hard Drive" support via the SD card.
2. Sub directory access in order to group certain ADF files together (eg, Tower Assualt files plus save game disk)
3. 2nd Floppy support (if no hard drive support) in order to make playing games like Dune or Colonization possible without contracting the Minimig equivalent of "disk swapper's wrist".
4. Core file selection on bootup (to allow access to several cores such as PAL, NTSC or a Arcade core).
5. Solve the bug that breaks Menace (well, it is my favourite shoot-em-up). :-D
Cheers.
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Hi Yaqube,
First just want to say your last update was brilliant and made my Minimig so much more fun! Darrin already mentioned these, but the biggies for me are a better way to order the ADF files and 2nd floppy drive support (so you don't need to 'swap the disks'). :)
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straycat wrote:
Hi Yaqube,
First just want to say your last update was brilliant and made my Minimig so much more fun! Darrin already mentioned these, but the biggies for me are a better way to order the ADF files and 2nd floppy drive support (so you don't need to 'swap the disks'). :)
Do you have his little PC program that renames and sorts the files on the SD card? If not, PM me your email address and I'll send it to you.
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If I had just one request:
Hardfile support. This alone would quintiple Mini-Mig sales.
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Hi Darrin!
1. "Hard Drive" support via the SD card.
I have implemented basic hard drive support but it requires a new ARM controller. The performance is not very high but it's sufficient to play some games, the play of Dune II is very convenient. The hard file format is compatible with the UAE's HDFs. This solution is not complete yet and I still work on it.
2. Sub directory access in order to group certain ADF files together (eg, Tower Assualt files plus save game disk)
I haven't toyed with subdirs yet, but it should be possible even with limited PIC's resources. I am also thinking about alphabetical ordering of displayed files but this will be possible only with the ARM micro.
3. 2nd Floppy support (if no hard drive support) in order to make playing games like Dune or Colonization possible without contracting the Minimig equivalent of "disk swapper's wrist".
The current (in development) PIC firmware supports up to two floppy drives and the ARM's one supports up to four.
4. Core file selection on bootup (to allow access to several cores such as PAL, NTSC or a Arcade core).
It's a little bit complicated since some functionality to the FPGA core is provided by the PIC/ARM firmware (floppy and hard disk support, configuration). The best solution would be an application code loaded from the SD-Card to the micro controller memory during boot-up but it's limited by its RAM resources.
5. Solve the bug that breaks Menace (well, it is my favourite shoot-em-up).
I will take a look at Menace.
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@Straycat
Have you tried my FatCleaner (http://www.yaqube.neostrada.pl/FATCleaner.exe) to reorder alphabetically files on an SD-Card?
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yaqube wrote:
Hi Darrin!
1. I have implemented basic hard drive support but it requires a new ARM controller. The performance is not very high but it's sufficient to play some games, the play of Dune II is very convenient. The hard file format is compatible with the UAE's HDFs. This solution is not complete yet and I still work on it.
Please keep us posted. :-)
2. I haven't toyed with subdirs yet, but it should be possible even with limited PIC's resources. I am also thinking about alphabetical ordering of displayed files but this will be possible only with the ARM micro.
The sub folders would be handy because I'm starting to get lost as to which "save disk" goes with what game.
3. The current (in development) PIC firmware supports up to two floppy drives and the ARM's one supports up to four.
Great news.
4. It's a little bit complicated since some functionality to the FPGA core is provided by the PIC/ARM firmware (floppy and hard disk support, configuration). The best solution would be an application code loaded from the SD-Card to the micro controller memory during boot-up but it's limited by its RAM resources.
So which of your arms do I need to twist to get hold of an ARM controller? :-D
5. I will take a look at Menace.
Cheers. :-)
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Hi Yaqube,
This may be a little unrealistic, but my request list would be:
- SATA (or even IDE) hard drive support (so I can plug in a cheap, modern HDD and treat it like a normal AMIGA drive)
- dual RS232 (so one of them can be permenantly connected to my main PC via AMIGA EXPLORER and the other left available)
- a bit more RAM (would it really be more expensive to have 4MB?)
Good luck with your developments!
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@Yaqube
Thanks for all the hard work.
For me the only real requirement is hard disk emulation.
Sub directory support for loading adf files from directories would also be very useful.
On the topic of sorting the files on the SD card I seem to remember reading some were about a utility to sort the files on the card into alphabetic order but I cant find it now, but that would be a workable solution and would be nice for anyone how dose not opt to buy the arm add on board when you finish it, even a command line utility would help.
Edit: I just spotted the link to FatCleaner above anything else I have missed? Is there a website with a link to the utility or any other minimig information or files?
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@Yaqube
What I really want to see is multiple floppy drives support and FPGA core selection at boot-up.
Concerning the bugs, I have noticed that the sprites in Katakis are blinking (NTSC Minimig core).
Keep up the good work!
Regards,
Frederic
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Yaqube : first, thanks for your amazing work :) It made a huuuuuge difference :)
Here are the features I look forward to (but I see they were already mentioned :):
1) subdirectories support (not necessarily alphabetically sorted)
2) second floppy disk
3) a better compatibility (I spotted some issues, for instance : in the shoot them up level of Jim Power, parallax scrollings are not displayed properly, or in demos like Arté/Hardwired/Desert Dreams)
4) would it be possible to add an option to map the joystick to arrow keybs / numeric pad (as in UAE) : this would be useful with defective pads, or to use the Minimig with the X-Arcade joystick (PS2 joystick on which the keyboard is plugged)
5) some other GFX filters maybe ? (like scanlines)
6) an option (without the need for jumpers) to set the CPU to 14 Mhz
7) an option to speed up the floppy accesses
[ 8) about what I wrote in another thread : would it be possible for the minimig to output a more standard screen resolution, like 800x600 instead of 720x576, not to get some distortion with some screens, like mine :) ]
I'm conscious my wishes list in not extremely relevant, though :)
Overall only the 1 to 3 are really important to make it a perfect A500 clone :)
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Yaqube,
You have done a huge, great amount of work, thank you.
For the next firmware release I would like all of the above, already listed by other people please.
I don't know if this can be done but is it possible to have long filenames? I had to reduce Alien Breed Tower Assault to ABTA :-)
Automatic alphabetical order would be nice, HD support and two floppy support.
ON/OFF facility, I don't know how.
Minimig logo popping up wiht tiny tune/sound :-) when switched on maybe if you have some bytes left :-)
Keep me posted, for testing and other, especially any hardware additions.
By the way the slightly improved Minimig enclosure is on order. Another 50 glossy white enclosures with little additions arriving soon! :-)
I will post here and on amigaworld.net and also on www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk as soon as I get the new prototype back. :-)
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Would there be room for HDF support if ADF was taken out?
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If hardfile support was added (with maybe better file sorting / folder support) I would buy a Minimig.
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Is the serial port of the minimig usable as A500 serial port?
(So one could connect minimig&A500 or two minis to play stunt car racer and other games over serial connection.)
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Oh my! Me and my brother used to do that.
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Thanks Darrin - just seen the link in this thread :)
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Thanks for the link Yaqube, I'll check it out!
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KimmoK wrote:
Is the serial port of the minimig usable as A500 serial port?
(So one could connect minimig&A500 or two minis to play stunt car racer and other games over serial connection.)
I haven't used the serial port for games, but I'm guessing it works - I've used it for Amiga Explorer - see my site: http://www.loftcat.org.uk/minimig/help.html ("Saving files on your Minimig" - the page needs updating as we now have write support!)
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@mahen
1) subdirectories support (not necessarily alphabetically sorted)
Possible but not present in the upcoming release.
2) second floppy disk
Already done.
3) a better compatibility (I spotted some issues, for instance : in the shoot them up level of Jim Power, parallax scrollings are not displayed properly, or in demos like Arté/Hardwired/Desert Dreams)
I have fixed some small incompatibilities in the CPU and blitter timings but there is still many others to fix. This won't happen soon.
4) would it be possible to add an option to map the joystick to arrow keybs / numeric pad (as in UAE) : this would be useful with defective pads, or to use the Minimig with the X-Arcade joystick (PS2 joystick on which the keyboard is plugged)
Possible and should be implemented in the future.
5) some other GFX filters maybe ? (like scanlines)
I have thought about this already. Scanlines are easy to implement so might be added soon.
6) an option (without the need for jumpers) to set the CPU to 14 Mhz
There is an option to set the CPU speed to turbo mode. The CPU is clocked at 28MHz and now I'm working on the sideband memory interface to allow it to run at full speed (no waitstates). This should work on Minimigs with 55/45 ns memory chips but hasn't been tested yet.
7) an option to speed up the floppy accesses
Already done but the PIC and CPU speeds are limiting factors. Although using the ARM and CPU turbo mode the floppy transfer rate is doubled.
[ 8) about what I wrote in another thread : would it be possible for the minimig to output a more standard screen resolution, like 800x600 instead of 720x576, not to get some distortion with some screens, like mine :) ]
I tried to implement this but left it since it requires some kind of a genlock to sync with the line frequency. Maybe I will think about it again since I've been toying with an idea of similar flicker-fixer for my A4000 (the Picasso IV built-in FF doesn't work very well with most of LCD monitors).
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Good to see you are still working on things Yaqube :)
In Minimig's present state, with current hardware/board design, the only thing that *REALLY* needs to be added, is double floppy image support to sut down on the image swapping.
The other thing I owuld like to see, but due to the closed nature of Caps/SPS will not likely see it, is IPF support.
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I would be happy if you could make the AD724-corefix available so I can use it with my Mini-ITX MiniMig. I also plan to put 10ns SRAM on some of my MiniMigs, so that memory optimization could have an option for that too.
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At the mo, I use my Amiga (Well, an emulated one via WinUAE) so for me to be interested, it would need either hard drive support, or at least emulated via CF card or similar (would that be a relieble way of doing it? Ie would that be suitable for multiple writes etc?) So basically this, and the ability to output high (at least 1280x1024) screenmodes to a monitor, and I'd be able to use a minimig to replace the PC I use to run winUAE.
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yaqube wrote:
The Picasso IV built-in FF doesn't work very well with most of LCD monitors.
How do you mean?
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NOT that the Minimig isn't really, really great, but for it to be ULTRA useful....
The Minimig, for me to buy, I'd want the full 8 Megs fast, 2 Megs chip ram. And also; 2 telephone jacks (RJ25?) with 56K modems. That way you can make a lan, of sorts, AND it could be a BBS/information terminal kiosk type device. (Imagine if it had a colour screen???)
The impossible?
Expand chip ram to 4 or even 8 megs!
Another thing, does Bluetooth work with it? (I don't know all the in/out puts.)
Does it have a NTSC flicker fixer?
I mean, this could basically replace my A2000!
I don't know all the connectors on a Minimig, but could this work?
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/30170
:-D :-D :-D :-D
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@Atheist
You are joking right?
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Hi tonyyeb,
I don't see a joke in what I wrote. Which part is making you laugh?
What's easier to carry around, wield and plug in, a telephone wire, or a 25 pin RS232 cable?
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Ok, now I know you are joking.
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I'm not joking about any of the things I've listed that I'd like in a Minimig.
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Atheist wrote:
I'm not joking about any of the things I've listed that I'd like in a Minimig.
Well this thread was started by the guy who develops a version of the software for the minimig and pretty much all of the things you have asked for would require hardware changes. Hence why I thought you were joking... maybe you just didn't quite understand this thread is about core updates and not the hardware.
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alexh wrote:
yaqube wrote:
The Picasso IV built-in FF doesn't work very well with most of LCD monitors.
How do you mean?
I mean the 910(NTSC)/908(PAL) pixel clocks per line problem. Additionally vertical sync of the PIV FF is not in sync with Amiga's one. That's why some people can notice some glitches in scrolling. And my PIV has rev.5 FF which takes blue component from neighbouring pixel and makes text display blury, it annoys me a lot. That's why I use it in 12-bit non-AGA mode.
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My mistake.
I thought perhaps the HARDWARE was going through a revison as well.
Sorry, but those are some new features I'd want before I would buy one. Essentially, it could TOTALLY replace my A2000 if I could get most if not all of those enhancements.
I'll list them again briefly.
Must haves:
8 Megs fast, 2 Megs chip
at least 1 56 K modem RJ25 jack
Would really like:
4 or 8 Megs chip ram (as well as 8 megs Fast.)
Second modem jack for ring or star lan.
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tonyyeb wrote:
Atheist wrote:
I'm not joking about any of the things I've listed that I'd like in a Minimig.
Well this thread was started by the guy who develops a version of the software for the minimig and pretty much all of the things you have asked for would require hardware changes. Hence why I thought you were joking... maybe you just didn't quite understand this thread is about core updates and not the hardware.
Thank you tonyyeb for pointing this out, it was exactly what I meant when posting here. But nevertheless it's good to know what people's expectations regarding hardware are. It would help in designing the future hardware version.
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Hi yaqube,
Thanks for at least reading my comments, even though you aren't the "go to" guy for this.... But think about HOW USEFUL such a device would be.
And I'm serious, as much as I want a NatAmi, this is ULTRA useful, with what, a boot up time of under 15 seconds? I'd buy this for sure.
It's the PDA I've ALWAYS wanted.... except for an AGA version. :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Atheist wrote:
[...]
I'll list them again briefly.
Must haves:
8 Megs fast, 2 Megs chip
at least 1 56 K modem RJ25 jack
Would really like:
4 or 8 Megs chip ram (as well as 8 megs Fast.)
Second modem jack for ring or star lan.
Wouldn't it be better to have an Ethernet port instead of a modem?
8 mega bytes of chip ram are possible, mine currently has 2MB. But I am afraid that the Minimig with all this stuff would cost so much that nobody could afford it.
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Hi yaqube,
With a modem, you could directly connect through a phone line. And much easier to another computer. Many people still don't have an internet connection. Isn't a modem link up easier to do?
How would the price shoot through the roof?
8 more megs of ram, isn't that dirt cheap? And a 56K modem, is that REALLY expensive?
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Memory used on the minimig (for various reasons including compatibility) is very expensive.
Many people still don't have an internet connection. Isn't a modem link up easier to do?
The people who want a minimig WILL have an internet connection! An ethernet port is a better option. 56k external modems can be plugged into the serial port if needed (which I doubt would be used by less than 1% of potential/current minimig owners). No competition.
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Hi tonyyeb,
Have you ever considered that some people want privacy, want something that boots up in a few seconds, then send files back and forth, when they say go to someone's place that DOESN'T have a computer or internet feed?
Some people want a simpler experience. It should be a 56 K modem built into the Minimig.
Since the OGR-25 has quit, I don't leave both computers on 24/7 anymore (that being my xp and my AmigaOne XE), so when I go to turn on the computers and use the internet, I am using the xp ALOT less, I just CAN'T STAND the XPs boot up time, dread powering down, dread freaking out over how long it takes firefox to start, it's just a VERY VERY TERRIBLE eXPerience using widross!!!!! I realize now I am addicted to the Amiga way of everything.
(Who's kidding who, I knew I was for almost 2 decades now. :-D)
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Atheist wrote:
Hi tonyyeb,
Some people want a simpler experience. It should be a 56 K modem built into the Minimig..
)
I have to jump in here. More and more people are getting rid of any form of lan line (home phone). in less then 20 years it will be a thing of the past. For example, I, myself have had a Cell, and since the year 2000, have not had a home phone line. Why pay for a service i don't need, since I (for the majority of the time) am not at home. - That's just me, but I know that the number of "new" home phone users are shrinking and with new cable phone services, the number is shrinking more. I thought ANY style of dail up service would have died off long ago and a 56 K modem would have been as obsolete as a tolken ring network.
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I've ALWAYS found cell service unreliable. To this day.
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Yaqube : thanks for taking the time to reply :)
If the subdirectories support is not done soon, maybe in the meantime there could be a way to scroll through the filelist faster ? (one page at a time instead of one line at a time :)
You are refering to a "genlock" required to "sync with the line frequency". Do you mean it would require an extra hardware component ?
cheers !
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Ethernet port on a 7MHz device? Won't that use up all the CPUs time or flood it with data??? Isn't 2 * 56K max ports beter?
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Atheist wrote:
I've ALWAYS found cell service unreliable. To this day.
I can only speak for the UK here but our cell service has NEVER let me down, be it voice, text, data. No issues with being able to get a connection.
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Atheist wrote:
Ethernet port on a 7MHz device? Won't that use up all the CPUs time or flood it with data??? Isn't 2 * 56K max ports beter?
Well I run wifi on my A1200 fine, and that is only a 14mhz CPU (Minimig can do 25mhz).
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What's with all the closed mindedness in the Amiga community?
I think it would increase the flexibility by leaps and bounds.
Who needs 65536 channels in an ethernet connection componding the complexity of what's a simple peer to peer transfer on a 25 MHz device?!?
Running 100 K SW rather than 2 Megs.
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Atheist wrote:
at least 1 56 K modem RJ25 jack
What is 56 K modem? What is RJ25 jack?
Would really like:
4 or 8 Megs chip ram (as well as 8 megs Fast.)
Second modem jack for ring or star lan.
More than 2MB chip is not supported by AmigaOS, so no point with that. Modem jack for ring or star lan? Jack? Token Ring? ArcNet? Ethernet? What? :-?
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When it comes to attaching new devices to the MiniMig, I would still like to see an Ethernet port added, but instead of using it directly, build all other ports into the FPGA, and tunnel them over the Ethernet. This would allow access to any device that could be built in the FPGA and emulated on the network (including a network card). The beauty is that for anyone wanting a real device attached to the MiniMig, all they have to do is build a small board that receives the tunneled data, and passes it to a real port.
So, if you wanted an IDE drive, you would build a virtual IDE connection in the FPGA core so that the as far as the software is concerned, it is a real IDE port. This gets tunneled over the Ethernet port. You then either run an emulated MiniMig IDE drive on your server (which could be a share, a disk image, or an entire drive) or you build a small board that has the sole purpose of receiving the tunneled data and converting it to be used with the real IDE connector on the board.
This approach would solve a lot of problems. Namely:
* The number of spare pins would no longer be an issue, as once the Ethernet was hooked up, all other device connections would be on the single Ethernet port.
* Improvement to the MiniMig would have the hardware and software upgrades decoupled. Something like scanner support could be added via software/firmware only by making it connect to a server, and then if an industrious hardware developer wanted to make it stand alone, a board could be built after the fact.
*USB devices would be accessible to the MiniMig. By attaching the devices to a server, the server side emulation layer could take the entire load of the USB stack, and present the MiniMig with access to the device as something as simple as a serial device.
* Any device could be turned into a wireless device with the addition of a standard off the shelf wireless bridge.
Given the nature of the MiniMig, being able to add devices without having to build a physical board, and only building the physical port if there is enough demand, would be a huge benefit.
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If you had found any games causing problems or not working at all please tell me their names.
I think someone on here posted about a compatibility list already being made.
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weirdami wrote:
If you had found any games causing problems or not working at all please tell me their names.
I think someone on here posted about a compatibility list already being made.
Well i've taken the Open Circuits list and made it into a search able database over at www.aukug.co.uk
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@Belial6
Not that clever an idea... It simply isn't worth using a MiniMig then, just use UAE...
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Darrin wrote:
So which of your arms do I need to twist to get hold of an ARM controller? :-D
No need to do this. There is one already waiting for you. :-D
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yaqube wrote:
Darrin wrote:
So which of your arms do I need to twist to get hold of an ARM controller? :-D
No need to do this. There is one already waiting for you. :-D
PM sent. ;-)
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mahen wrote:
If the subdirectories support is not done soon, maybe in the meantime there could be a way to scroll through the filelist faster ? (one page at a time instead of one line at a time :)
I have increased scrolling speed through the file list but it seems to work faster only on my ARM micro. It seems that the PIC is too slow to traverse through directory entries any faster.
You are refering to a "genlock" required to "sync with the line frequency". Do you mean it would require an extra hardware component ?
I only mean that I wasn't able to implement it at my first try. I don't say it's impossible using current hardware. I must think about it to tell you more.
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Put room for an 030 in the design! :-D :-D :-D
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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kolla wrote:
More than 2MB chip is not supported by AmigaOS
On Winuae, Workbench detect and use without any problem the 8 MB chip ram configuration :shrug:
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My guess is that Kolla has not even loaded Winuae :)
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bloodline wrote:
@Belial6
Not that clever an idea... It simply isn't worth using a MiniMig then, just use UAE...
Why? I don't see any connection...
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I think we are getting kind of off topic here as the original topic of this thread was what software enhancements would people like to see for the minimig not what hardware people want the for a later generation Minimig.
And the most popular answers seem to be:
1. Second Floppy disk drive emulation support
2. Support for folder to help organise adf images.
3. Harddisk emulation using existing SD card hardware.
4. CPU speed setting in software
5. Selectable PAL/NTSC emulation from menu.
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@Dwyloc
Thank you for your feedback.
Let me add few words of comment.
1. Second Floppy disk drive emulation support
It's already done.
2. Support for folder to help organise adf images.
This is requested by many people and I may implement this sooner than I intended.
3. Harddisk emulation using existing SD card hardware.
If you meant the existing PIC micro controller it won't be done.
4. CPU speed setting in software
Already done.
5. Selectable PAL/NTSC emulation from menu.
I have already thought about this but the OSD menu is displayed using the same video mode as the Amiga chipset uses. If you change to PAL and your monitor doesn't support 50Hz vertical sync you will end up with no display and won't see an OSD menu to change it back. But I understand that with KS1.3 there is no easy way to switch between video modes before running a game so this option might be added.
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yaqube wrote:
3. Harddisk emulation using existing SD card hardware.
If you meant the existing PIC micro controller it won't be done.
I was just hoping for Hardfile support on the SD... What are the chances of this?
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tonyyeb wrote:
I was just hoping for Hardfile support on the SD... What are the chances of this?
It has been already working but requires the ARM controller. When I finish my SVHS adapter I will make a video.
(http://www.yaqube.neostrada.pl/S1010613.jpg)
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Wow! How cool is that?!? Does it do anything else (performance increase, features etc...)? How much will that be to buy?
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Right now it allows to have four floppy drives instead of two. It supports a hardfile on an SD-Card (A600 IDE port compatible so you need KS 37.300 or later).
The read speed is about 400-500 KB/s (depends on a card). Writing to hardfile is supported but is slower than reading (needs improvements).
Now I'm working on direct firmware upgrades from an SD-Card instead through the USB port.
Price needs to be calculated but my prototype boards costed 50 Euro each not including assembly.
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@yaqube
Thanks for the information on your add on board it looks very cool my only concern is if it will fit in my existing minimig case (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=47540) supplied by "TheDaddy".
Can the USB port on the add on board be used anything else as well as updating the firmware for the add on board?
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Dwyloc wrote:
Thanks for the information on your add on board it looks very cool my only concern is if it will fit in my existing minimig case
Yes, it will fit. I've got Loriano's case and there is no problems with fitting my controller inside.
Can the USB port on the add on board be used anything else as well as updating the firmware for the add on board?
Currently the USB port is not supported by the Minimig firmware. It could be used to turn the Minimig into an SD-Card reader or to communicate with host PC.
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Yes I can confirm that too. Jakub has tested his lovely ARM controller and it should fit. :-)
Since the updates will be done through SD Card and not through USB (Jakub is working on that too) there is no need to modify the case, unless one day we have USB support. :-)
Ciao
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TheDaddy wrote:
Since the updates will be done through SD Card and not through USB (Jakub is working on that too) there is no need to modify the case, unless one day we have USB support. :-)
Ciao
Anyone wanting to access the USB port on the ARM controller need only run a short USB extension cable and drill a small hole in the case..
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Hi Yaqube,
Well done with your improvements. Ditching the PIC and using an ARM opens up lots of possibilities!
My additional wishes would be:
1. SDHC support
2. More RAM
3. Ethernet (10 Mbit)
4. Use an XC3S500E
SDHC support is supposedly a software-only mod when using the ARM controller. I would wish for folder support as well...
More RAM can be added through static RAMs and an extra address line, or by rewriting the interface to support SDRAM. The latter would result in a massive price reduction. Tobiflex is using SDRAM, so his design could be a point of reference for implementation.
I think that for experimenting, it should be possible to piggy back a couple of extra static RAM chips on the current PCB design and routing the extra address lines to the spare IO connector.
Ethernet would be a nice idea, especially if using a cheap and easy ENC28J60 interfaced through SPI - either directly to the FPGA as an Amiga peripheral with DMA capability, or through the ARM as some kind of virtual serial port.
As for using the XC3S500E, it would mean an extra 20% in logic capacity at a slightly lower price, while still allowing for home assembly.
On very small priority as wishes come, I was thinking about what Belial6 suggested. I would do it slightly differently as I can't see his point exactly but his concept is good food for thought!
What about moving slow I/O ports such as keyboard, mouse, joysticks, serial and parallel port to the ARM? There are surely several unused I/O pins on the ARM. The reclaimed FPGA pins could be put to good use for more demanding peripherals (such as 24-bit video, IDE, HDMI or anything that would come to mind).
Just my 2cents, and my compliments for the great work ;-)
Edwin
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All that stuff sounds really interesting and not off the wall as some other ideas are. But it will require a redesign of the MiniMig itself. The primary reason is the XC3S500E - it is not pin compatible with the XC3S400 used today. By doing that, we could put the ARM and all the other new chips on the mainboard too...
Edit: if someone takes care of the core software, I would happily create a new Mini-ITX out of this... :-D
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Illuwatar wrote:
Edit: if someone takes care of the core software, I would happily create a new Mini-ITX out of this... :-D
Ok, so we have a very good PCB designer on board :-) Now, there's the need of a hardware designer, a firmware developer, an HDL developer and an Amiga side developer.
I used to do hardware and firmware development, and am used to cost reduction techniques. Problem is that I no longer have any free time now between work, uni and a new family...
Still, if we can form a loose collaborative team with a plan, this project could take off nicely...
Cheers!
Edwin
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Illuwatar wrote:
if someone takes care of the core software, I would happily create a new Mini-ITX out of this [a XC3S500E]... :-D
This sounds very interesting indeed.
A cheaper and bigger FPGA in combination with the ARM would allow for a lot of improvements.
Especially in combination with big, cheap and fast SDRAM.
The ARM USB-port is another nice feature that begs to be experimented upon later on (i.e. thinking USB to Ethernet dongles).
Would this constitute a Minimig v2.0?
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I personally would prefer another minmig in tha same form factor as the existing one rather than a larger mini-itx board for me 99% of the appeal is the Minimigs small size.
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You know, the new FPGA Upgrade board for the C-One will run minimig. It has a lot more ram, I believe a larger FPGA and more IO ports. I don't know if the additional IDE, PCI, Floppy and other ports will work with the ported core but I am sure they can be added later with some work. The 68000 is FPGA based so faster speeds might be possible as well.
I think it even has a clock port.
Also the new FPGA upgrade board will be the basis for the DEV system for the Clone-A.
Here are some links.
http://www.c-one.net/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?topics_offset=1&forumId=9&comments_parentId=31
And as mentioned in a previous post.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35582
(http://www.c64upgra.de/c-one/pics/c1extender_final2.jpg)
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@Dwyloc
A Minimig v2 doesn't need to be Mini-ITX. That's just one of Illuwatar's current projects. As is his Mini Minimig (http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/mini-minimig/mini-minimig.htm).
@omnicron10
C-One isn't open source and, I suspect, neither will Clone-A be.
And the C-One is also bigger than the Minimig.
PS. The pictures in this thread is somewhat bloated.
Could you please scale them down? DS.
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denli wrote:
@Dwyloc
A Minimig v2 doesn't need to be Mini-ITX. That's just one of Illuwatar's current projects.
Yes I am well aware of that I just thought it was worth speaking up on the minimigs main selling point that has got a lot of people in the 30 something age group I know who were former Amiga owners interested in the minimig.
Yes I know we are all getting older these days :-( But our toys are getting better :-D
You can already build a faster min-itx system that will run WinUAE very nicely less money than a Minimig by the time you add a good case and joysticks but it just dose not have the same cool factor as the minimg thanks to the cool imac and shiny back custom made Minimig cases.
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atheist
Thanks for noting there are still modem users out here;what our friends in some places may not understand is much of the U.S. is sparsely populated comparatively,and it is not profitable for the providers of high-speed internet.
I MAY finally have wireless internet as an option at $40 monthly plus taxes ;the standard DSL line here costs $49.95 plus all the normal phone taxes and access fees,plus a $4.95 special tax on the DSL .So dial-up is $19.95 vs. DSL $54.90!(in addition to the basic voice phone service.
Still ,rather than redoing the FPGA for modem,just? implement USB and use USB external modem.
Applause to all those involved in minimig so far !!!!
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to use usb, you need a usb stack in software, usb has a TONNE of overhead, its a piss poor bus as far as cpu consumption goes.
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Hello,
I think we should drop Xilinx and go for Altera : the Cyclone III FPGAs are huge in comparison and still with QFP package.
For example the EP3C16Q240 has 160 available IOs and has twice the logic than the X3S400 from the Minimig.
My blue box running 1943 has this FPGA, I put a 8MB SSRAM, and IDE port, a 30-bit VGA, 2 joysticks ports, 2 PS2 ports + lot of spare IOs (about 20).
If you use a SDRAM instead of SSRAM (10 IOs saved), a 74LV166 serializer on the joystick ports (like on the AGA machines, 5 more IOs saved), a 24-bit VGA (6 IOs saved), you can add USB through ULPI (12 IOs used), Ethernet through MII (16 IOs) or RMII (10 IOs).
Regards,
Frederic
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Well the source code for the minimig port is open source and they have a lot of docs on the website to allow third parties
to write for the c-one board. Yes the c-one is bigger but it has a lot more IO.
You can look at the source code on the download page just put up tonight.
http://www.c64upgra.de/c-one/
Most of the cores are open source.
The C-one is larger but it fits pretty well in a standard ATX case and Power Supply.
denli
@omnicron10
C-One isn't open source and, I suspect, neither will Clone-A be.
And the C-One is also bigger than the Minimig.
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On very small priority as wishes come, I was thinking about what Belial6 suggested. I would do it slightly differently as I can't see his point exactly but his concept is good food for thought!
The point is to take a very small number of I/O pins that are available, and make an interface that is standard, cheap, can add an unlimited number of devices with no need to change the basic MiniMig board, has very little cpu load, and can work with all of the software that is looking for hardware that is directly hooked to an Amiga.
Right now, I don't hook printers up to my desktop. I put them on the lan directly, or hook them to my files server. I also don't put all of my disk storage on my PC. My scanner is also sitting directly on the lan. Why? Because I want to be able to put these devices anywhere in the house. I don't want them all sitting on my desk. I also don't want to limit these devices to a single computer. By putting these components on the network, the MiniMig can access any device that a PC can access. Heck, I would thing MiniMig users would be MORE concerned with not having all of the devices sitting next the the computer.
For those that don't want their MiniMig to be stand alone, they can have that with greater functionality than making dedicated ports. As I have said in other posts. Just make a small board that untunnles the virtual port, and hook up your device.
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From my point of view, as the designer of the Minimig cases, I can still carry on supplying and designing enclosures for all these projects AS LONG as I get the FINAL board.
I agree with dwyloc though that the size of the Minimig, the fact that it's already a mature product, that it already has its own custom case, that it already has a user base and a cool developer (Jakub) :-) all these points make it cool and inviting.
:-)
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denli wrote:
@omnicron10
C-One isn't open source and, I suspect, neither will Clone-A be.
And the C-One is also bigger than the Minimig.
Although you were addressing Omnicron10, I'll answer this first-hand: The C-One was always open to a degree where other developers could take part in further development.
The schematics of the mainboard were open from day one:
http://c64upgra.de/c-one/tech/c1schematics.pdf
and the schematics of the extender card have been opened even before the board was delivered, you might want to call it "day minus 5" ;-)
http://c64upgra.de/c-one/tech/c1_extender_schem.pdf
I have just updated some info in the extender schematics yesterday, as I have changed the type of capacitors in the audio output stage.
Since the C-One has a fairly complicated topology, Tobias made example sources and IO bridges for other FPGA coders. The GBridge allows using all the IO hooked to the 1k30 from the 1k100 side, so you don't have to worry about inter-chip communication. The whole system appears like a single FPGA with that.
The first person to make use of that was Peter Wendrich, who made a C64 core. I should say "the" C64 core, as we have put quite some time into making this cycle-exact, and today, it's superior to many C64 software-emulators. The C64 core was open-source until release V0.27, and the current one is closed until the Chameleon is out and selling. All our findings about the C64 will be open, not only in source, but also in clear-text documentation. You will be surprised at how much documentation about the C64 out there is wrong!
The Minimig core port for the C-One already includes Jakub Bednarski's changes, and the source is open. While the ARM board for the Minimig board looks cool, the C-One sports another 68000 processor in place of the PIC. This already gives lots more performance on that part, and still, the FPGA space is only used to about 65%. Yes, you can expect updates from our side, and as GPL requires, this will be open-source. Anyone who makes an FPGA board with all the kind of IO that the C-One has will be able to use our mods on his board.
Jens
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@Schoenfeld
Cool :-)
I wasn't aware of that. It's not mentioned anywhere on the About page.
Where can I find the license agreement?
It didn't show up when I searched for it at the Twiki-site (http://www.c-one.net/tiki-index.php) either.
It's good to know that it's open source but if anyone is about to build a C-One for them self, they better know what they can and can't do.
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yakumo9275 wrote:
to use usb, you need a usb stack in software, usb has a TONNE of overhead, its a piss poor bus as far as cpu consumption goes.
If you put the stack in the Amiga, yes.
I have no idea how the Minimig ARM Controller works but I would suspect that it already have some kind of USB-stack of it's own (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Then you would only need to present the Minimig ARM Controller USB as another kind of device that is less taxing for the Amiga/Minimig and let the Minimig ARM Controller do the hard work as I think yaqube has stated below.
yaqube wrote:
Dwyloc wrote:
Can the USB port on the add on board be used anything else as well as updating the firmware for the add on board?
Currently the USB port is not supported by the Minimig firmware. It could be used to turn the Minimig into an SD-Card reader or to communicate with host PC.
The Amiga/Minimig doesn't need to know it's using devices through a USB.
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Here are a few games I didn't manage to get working with the current core (PAL, kick1.3, 512Kb or 1Mb of chip, no fast). It may be due to the ADF versions (but I usually tried several for each game).
- Mega Typhoon : black screen
- Captain Blood : guru meditation
- Lionheart : white screen (or black, not sure :)
- Wizkid 2 : empty menu, can't start the game ?
- Wiz'n'Liz : black screen
- Metal Masters : controls issue (not the right directions triggered)
Edit : actually works with English versions of the game (tried French initially - Maupiti Island : never got to the title screen. The Minimig LED keeps on flickering (but not the keyboard LED)
- Jim Power : works but parallax scrollings flicker on the shoot them up level (after the first boss)
Edit : works with a different version - Worms (Fairlight version) : black screen
- Kid Chaos : some tokens/bonuses tend to flicker a bit when scrolling quickly, but this may be a normal behaviour. The scrollings are perfect and the game 100% playable.
Apart from that, most games work perfectly. Demos generally work with minor gfx bugs.
Thanks for reading this :)
Edit : oh, also, the competition pro pad behaves really strangely. (depending on the game)
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Hi all.
@mahem
Worms and Lionheart works for me with PAL core, KS1.3 and 1Mg/512 memory settings.
Regards
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They work for me too...as I have said before, you might want to try different adf images of a game that doesn't work :-)
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That is exactly what I have been suggesting except using an Ethernet connection. Both would be dandy, but there are some features that Ethernet could support that USB cannot. Of course, in theory, I suppose that you could run an Ethernet USB device.
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Darrin wrote:
...
5. Solve the bug that breaks Menace (well, it is my favourite shoot-em-up). :-D
I have found and fixed a bug in the playfield collision detection circuit. Now Menace works correctly. I think those few games in which you died immediately after start should also work now correctly. Nevertheless they need to be tested.
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@yacube,
It's announced that the MINIMIG firmware will now run on the C-ONE, if I understand correctly.
http://www.c64upgra.de/c-one/
Is this a potential way forward for more features or not really? (honest question - I know very little about FPGA's and can't really distinguish the C-ONE from the MINIMIG in technical terms myself).
All the best,
Anding
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yaqube wrote:
Darrin wrote:
...
5. Solve the bug that breaks Menace (well, it is my favourite shoot-em-up). :-D
I have found and fixed a bug in the playfield collision detection circuit. Now Menace works correctly. I think those few games in which you died immediately after start should also work now correctly. Nevertheless they need to be tested.
Well done!!! Cheers mate.
If you email me the new core then I'll test it on Hostages which appeared to have a similar problem.
You're the man!!! :-)
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Don't forget to update the compatibility list on www.aukug.co.uk ;-)
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Anding wrote:
It's announced that the MINIMIG firmware will now run on the C-ONE, if I understand correctly.
...
Is this a potential way forward for more features or not really?
In some regards it is: bigger FPGA, more RAM. But generally C-One is not the way I want to go.
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@yaqube
Can I ask when you are hoping to release your next firmware update for the Minimig as second floppy drive support will make as much difference as adding write support did to its usability.
Anyway Thanks again for all your hard work.
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Dwyloc : I would like to add the following question : will further updates necessarily need a PIC reflash ? :)
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I'm doing my best to release the new firmware before Christmas but there might be a slight delay depending on what else I would like to fix and add.
The new firmware will require a reflash of the PIC and I do not consider it to be a milestone.
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I know RedskullDC is already working on it, but here I go again: support for the A4000 keyboard! :-D
That's all I'm gonna request here, since every other useful (and not-so too) feature has already been mentioned! (2nd FDD, HDF, sorting, subfolders, scanlines...) :-D
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quote]
yaqube wrote:
The new firmware will require a reflash of the PIC and I do not consider it to be a milestone.
[/quote]
Yes but sometimes quite little changes make big differences to usability, I still remember just how much difference to my frustration levels adding a second disk drive made with my original A500 all those years ago :-D
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@ yakube:
Do you use a AT91SAM7S ? I have looked at the datasheet, these CPUs are quite powerful and reasonably priced at Digikey ($5 - $10).
I am looking at a new Minimig design, here are my thoughts :
- Same form factor (120mm x 120mm) so the case from TheDaddy can be used.
- AT91 instead of the PIC, of course !
- PATA, should I put a 2mm 44-pin connector or a 2.54mm 40-pin connector ? Maybe a compact flash too ?
- Combine the two PS2s in one and use a PS2 splitter.
- Replace the second PS2 connector by a S-Video one.
- More RAM, SSRAM are expensive (2MB for $30, 4MB for $70 and 8MB for $130) so, maybe some SDRAM instead.
- EP3C16 or EP3C25 FPGA.
- No 68000.
- 24-bit VGA DAC
- One 27 MHz clock with a MK2712 clock generator for PAL or NTSC.
Tell me what you think.
Regards,
Frederic
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What about an 020 and an AGA version :)
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French Shark wrote:
- Same form factor (120mm x 120mm) so the case from TheDaddy can be used.
Is that really a good enough reason to keep the form factor the same? Surely a nanoITX formfactor or something mainstream where you can buy mass produced cases at low prices would be the wiser choice?
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Ah, finally, I think I found a game that *really* doesn't work : Arabian Nights.
With all three versions I tried, the game never reacts when I insert the second disk (before getting to the main menu).
Cheers !
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@Frederic
I'm using AT91SAM7S256 right now but I'm thinking about switching to LPC2388. This chip has 2 USB ports which can act as device or host ports. In the future they could be used to connect USB keyboard/mouse/game pads or to be used as Amiga native ports (if someone writes appropriate drivers).
This micro also has 10/100 Mbits/s Ethernet MAC so only external RMII PHY is required. I'm thinking about putting TCP/IP stack on the ARM and make a bsdsocket.library wrapper on Amiga side. That's a plan.
My board will have definitely different form factor than the current one. It's simply too small to accommodate all the goodies.
I will add SVHS and composite video connectors and keep both PS/2 ports.
I'm thinking about using SDRAM or SSRAM as chip ram. The SDRAM is much cheaper but SSRAM has very low latency. I have not decided yet.
I'm for EP3C25 Altera FPGA but PQFP240 version has too few IOs. Probably I will end up with 324-ball BGA, I must try to do escape routing from IO balls to see how many can be used on 4-layer PCB, I don't want to use 6-layer PCB.
The 68SEC000 could be replaced with an expansion connector for the CPU module. In basic version we could use Tobias Gubener's TG68 so no additional board would be required.
On an optional CPU module we could have a 060 with an SDRAM as fast ram and as the emulated hard file speed isn't very impressive I would add a CF connector (and maybe 2mm 44-pin header). The CPU module will have a multiplexed bus so a small FPGA working as a bus bridge, SDRAM controller and HDC will be required. That's my idea.
24-bit VDAC is a must and also I would like to have 32-bit wide memory so IO pin count is relatively high. That's why I'm thinking about BGA package.
The joy ports will be put on external shift registers to free some IOs and make them 5V tolerant.
Right now I'm working on improving compatibility.
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yaqube wrote:
@Frederic
I'm using AT91SAM7S256 right now but I'm thinking about switching to LPC2388. This chip has 2 USB ports which can act as device or host ports. In the future they could be used to connect USB keyboard/mouse/game pads or to be used as Amiga native ports (if someone writes appropriate drivers).
This micro also has 10/100 Mbits/s Ethernet MAC so only external RMII PHY is required. I'm thinking about putting TCP/IP stack on the ARM and make a bsdsocket.library wrapper on Amiga side. That's a plan.
Nice!
Are all the AT91SAM7S pin compatible ?
Do they have enough horsepower to do MP3 decoding ? I am thinking about moving the audio output to the ARM's I2S (I want to use a PCM1742 from TI) and transfering the samples through the SPI. So, Audio and Disk DMA data will go through the SPI bus.
My board will have definitely different form factor than the current one. It's simply too small to accommodate all the goodies.
I will add SVHS and composite video connectors and keep both PS/2 ports.
With SMD components, you can use both sides of the PCB. So 120mm x 120mm is still OK. Usually, I put the RAM on the bottom side to reduce trace lengths between the FPGA and the RAM.
I have a long term plan to do an A600/A1200 PCB replacement. I have already the locations of the connectors using a scanner and Gimp. Maybe you should do that : A600 form factor with DB9 and IDC connectors for the joysticks so you can put it into an A1200 case.
I'm thinking about using SDRAM or SSRAM as chip ram. The SDRAM is much cheaper but SSRAM has very low latency. I have not decided yet.
With the EP3C25Q240, I am able to put a 16-bit 16MB chip SDRAM and a 16-bit 64MB fast SDRAM. The fast SDRAM shares the databus with the PATA port. I am going to use 74LVC646 chips : they are very fast, bi-directional with latches and 5V tolerant.
I'm for EP3C25 Altera FPGA but PQFP240 version has too few IOs. Probably I will end up with 324-ball BGA, I must try to do escape routing from IO balls to see how many can be used on 4-layer PCB, I don't want to use 6-layer PCB.
I looked at that already with the FBGA-256, it is very hard to do because of the 1mm pitch. With the low-cost PCB etching precision (6-8 mil), you cannot even put a trace between two BGA pads. IMHO, the only way is the following :
- 1st row -> 1st layer (top side)
- 2nd layer is ground
- 2nd row and 3rd row -> 3rd layer, vias have to be on BGA pads :crazy:
- IOs on 4th (and maybe 5th row) will be lost unless they are on the outside ring.
- 4th layer (bottom side) is for the voltages. Try also to have as much as possible banks with VCCIO = 2.5V or 3.0V. The Cylone III has better driving capabilities with 2.5V or 3.0V IOs.
If you are not afraid of BGA, put some mobile SDRAMs, they are 2.5V compatible.
The 68SEC000 could be replaced with an expansion connector for the CPU module. In basic version we could use Tobias Gubener's TG68 so no additional board would be required.
On an optional CPU module we could have a 060 with an SDRAM as fast ram and as the emulated hard file speed isn't very impressive I would add a CF connector (and maybe 2mm 44-pin header). The CPU module will have a multiplexed bus so a small FPGA working as a bus bridge, SDRAM controller and HDC will be required. That's my idea.
The best solution I have found so far as expansion bus is to get something like the Colfire's Flexbus but with DDR address/data (16 IOs instead of 32).
24-bit VDAC is a must and also I would like to have 32-bit wide memory so IO pin count is relatively high. That's why I'm thinking about BGA package.
The joy ports will be put on external shift registers to free some IOs and make them 5V tolerant.
Right now I'm working on improving compatibility.
You can reduce the VDAC IOs by using a 28-bit LVDS deserializer from National and 5 LVDS pairs on the FPGA (10 IOs), that will certainly limit your pixel clock.
For the joysticks, the 74LV166A is perfect. You can just put the four directions on the serializer (like on the real AGA Amigas) if you want to stay compatible with the CD32 pads.
Regards,
Frederic
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Since you said that you were already considering adding an ethernet connection with a TCP/IP stack to the new ARM PIC replacement board. I have a suggestion that would really make it slick.
Add the ability to download disk images from the network via HTTP. The way that I was envisioning it was to allow RSS feeds to be downloaded and displayed in the configuration menu. Then when an entry is selected, the disks are downloaded to the SD card. Also a way to delete the files from the menu would make it very usable indeed.
By using RSS, we could easily use existing tools to publish lists of our disk images from our file servers. The crown jewel of this would be to get Back2Roots.org to publish their downloads via RSS.
A good example of what I am thinking of is the way that the Gametap (http://www.gametap.com) player downloads and caches software.
This could also be done running on the Amiga side of the MiniMig if the base file system of the SD card were made available to the running MiniMig. Having it run on the ARM would have the benefit of allowing new disks to be downloaded while running a game or AmigaOS.
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yaqube wrote:
@Frederic
I will add SVHS and composite video connectors and keep both PS/2 ports.
SVHS? You mean S-video, right? I dont feel any need to hooking up an old VHS tape deck, super or not ... :-)
As for IDE/PATA, are there any good reasons for not using SATA instead?
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@ Belial6
A little clarification:
I didn't mean the ethernet port for the PIC replacement ARM board when I was talking to Frederic about the next generation of the Minimig.
It will be a different hardware design.
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kolla wrote:
SVHS? You mean S-video, right? I dont feel any need to hooking up an old VHS tape deck, super or not ... :-)
SVHS and S-Video are the same. Not every TV has a SCART connector.
As for IDE/PATA, are there any good reasons for not using SATA instead?
Probably all SATA controllers are PCI/PCIe based. Iplementation in an FPGA requires embeded SER/DES and external PHY.
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Hello.
One thing maybe worth noting is that Cyclone III has inbuilt DDR and DDR2 interface. Maybe the Altera software has free core for it?
EP3C40 with even more logic is also available in PQFP240 package, but is expensive at about 65 euros.
EDIT: If BGA style package are used, you could fit it underside a 68060 socket to gain small PCB area. Also QFP144 will fit, but it will have little I/O. (Spartan-3E400, EP3C5,10,16,25)
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As for IDE/PATA, are there any good reasons for not using SATA instead?
Probably all SATA controllers are PCI/PCIe based. Iplementation in an FPGA requires embeded SER/DES and external PHY.
The converter chips in SATA-IDE adapters will look like an 16-bit IDE device. also it would have 3.3V I/O, so you could connect it directly to microprocessor bus.
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mahen wrote:
Here are a few games I didn't manage to get working [...]
- Jim Power : works but parallax scrollings flicker on the shoot them up level (after the first boss)
Edit : works with a different version - Worms (Fairlight version) : black screen
I have tested "Jim Power" with my current core and the described effect is visible. Do you mean you have another ADF image which works correctly? If so have you tried the bad one to run on UAE or real Amiga and see if the same happens?
- Kid Chaos : some tokens/bonuses tend to flicker a bit when scrolling quickly, but this may be a normal behaviour. The scrollings are perfect and the game 100% playable.
I'm not able to notice any flickering. I am using a core with modified CPU and blitter timing and maybe it solved the problem.
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yaqube : sorry, it was misleading. The "works with a different version" was only for worms, not jim power :)
Thanks a lot for testing this :)
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Hi Jakub,
thanks for your really great work on Minimig :)
Im looking forward to the new release and possible new PIC replacement board.
Where will you release the new firmware? I dont want to miss it :)
Best regards and marry Christmas
Sascha
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yaqube wrote:
kolla wrote:
SVHS? You mean S-video, right? I dont feel any need to hooking up an old VHS tape deck, super or not ... :-)
SVHS and S-Video are the same. Not every TV has a SCART connector.
Uhm, no? Super-VHS is a video tape format, S-Video is a video signal standard.
As for IDE/PATA, are there any good reasons for not using SATA instead?
Probably all SATA controllers are PCI/PCIe based. Iplementation in an FPGA requires embeded SER/DES and external PHY.
No, there are cheap ATA-SATA converters around, you can stick them into the 44 pin IDE port and attach two SATA devices. Just google for "ide sata converter" :-)
I just ask since the IDE port takes up quite a bit of space on the boards.