Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: Amithony on November 15, 2008, 12:29:22 AM
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I'm trying to work out why these suckers are so expensive on Ebay.
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Here we go again from a guy a who owns a 4000T and 060 in OZ you should know. Its simply because this is what people will pay. Is it to much? Then I would say it depends on how much you want one. I went the Mediator way, but surely this is an individual choice now quick hide th spoon and stop stirring my friend. :-D
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bigmac wrote:
Here we go again from a guy a who owns a 4000T and 060 in OZ you should know. Its simply because this is what people will pay. Is it to much? Then I would say it depends on how much you want one. I went the Mediator way, but surely this is an individual choice now quick hide th spoon and stop stirring my friend. :-D
I guess i didnt mention that it was a project in progress. I was tossing up between going the SAM path instead and tweaking my own. I was curious as to what made this a better card than a $100 one. After an opinion rather than a flame. Incidentally, how do you know i havent bid? :)
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Picasso IV - what can it do that the other cards can not?
it can fetch big bux
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weirdami wrote:
Picasso IV - what can it do that the other cards can not?
it can fetch big bux
LOL, at 1000 bucks, id have to say your right. I got most of my info from:
http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl?product=picasso&company=#picasso4
I am just trying to rationalise burning $1000 when the SAM440 is about.
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1. It has a native pass-through video option. The only other two cards that I am aware of that offer this on-board were the original Cybervision 64 (not the 64/3D, it needed an additional board), and GVP's Sprectrun 24.
2. It has a built in Flicker Fixer. Nice for that native pass-through video option stated above for today's VGA monitors. The Cybervision 64 and Spectrum 24, although able to pass native video, did not "upgrade" the output signal for VGA compatibility. The Cybervision 64/3D had an additional board / module for flickr fixing, but it only worked on the Amiga 4000 and was difficult to find.
3. It has 4 MBs of memory and a high scan refresh rate, meaning it can drive bigger screens. In comparison, the GVP Spectrum 24 has 2MBs of memory and can only display a clean 24-bit color picture at 800x600. By pushing it to 1024x768, you're kinda forced to downgrade your color to 16-bit mode. The Picasso IV, and other boards with 4MBs of memory, should be able to produce a 24-bit image at 1024x768 without any problem.
4. The Picasso IV had add-on options, although very rare. There was a very limited production of a 3D daughtercard with a 3DFX VooDoo chip for use with the very few games out that require 3D acceleration. There was also supposed to be some AHI compatible sound card attachment and TV Tuner card.
:-D
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IIRC the 3d addon for the PIV was never released. Only the soundcard (concierto) ,TV-tuner (paloma) and video-encoder (pablo) were released. The TV-tuner is PAL- only.
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Amithony wrote:
I'm trying to work out why these suckers are so expensive on Ebay.
For a desktop its the only real solution, No way for "Mediator".
Many options were available including a TV card, Sound Card and I think one more I forget. All were plugged on to the PIV.
All of the add on cards are hard to find so you would have to "search and spend".
Happy to have one in my A2000.
Chris
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QuikSanz wrote:
Amithony wrote:
I'm trying to work out why these suckers are so expensive on Ebay.
For a desktop its the only real solution, No way for "Mediator".
Many options were available including a TV card, Sound Card and I think one more I forget. All were plugged on to the PIV.
All of the add on cards are hard to find so you would have to "search and spend".
Happy to have one in my A2000.
Chris
Sorry Chris, cant, see the logic in what your saying granted and no argument it is probably the best option with regards to RTG graphics cards, but the key word you used was "spend" were not talking small amounts here, when and if you can find the addon cards, can this cost be justified? I happen to have a mediator and you can correct me if I,m wrong it does an excellant job and has more and less expensive addon options than the PIV, as well as driver updates which are still ongoing. Anthony said he was trying to weigh up his options between upgrading his system or buying a Sam well in this instance and IMHO I would purchase the Sam which is the most expensive option of all but its new, with regards to all of the older options we have been discussing. It's still a work in progress and much fun will be had tweaking and improving it. Just my two bobs worth g'day mate. :-D
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@bigmac,
You get me wrong, was only trying to explain the upped prices. I bought my PIV when new, Not too bad, No other add on cards.
@Amithony
If you only have an older machine save it for old games and buy a SAM. You Will be happy.
Chris
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/
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QuikSanz wrote:
@bigmac,
You get me wrong, was only trying to explain the upped prices. I bought my PIV when new, Not too bad, No other add on cards.
@Amithony
If you only have an older machine save it for old games and buy a SAM. You Will be happy.
Chris
Hi! Chris my apologies, your right I was under the impression you had bought all the cards (lucky you if you had) :lol: have a nice day.
cheers
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A configurable flicker fixer that is simply the mutt's nuts in the Amiga world.
The PIV pwns all other Zorro gfx cards.
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Crisisdog wrote:
2. It has a built in Flicker Fixer. Nice for that native pass-through video option stated above for today's VGA monitors. The Cybervision 64 and Spectrum 24, although able to pass native video, did not "upgrade" the output signal for VGA compatibility. The Cybervision 64/3D had an additional board / module for flickr fixing, but it only worked on the Amiga 4000 and was difficult to find.
And PIV's sd/ff can also change refresh frequencies, which none of the other gfx card's scandoublers can do.
BTW. CV64/3D's module is only scan doubler, not flicker fixer. Also CV64/3D's picture quality isn't as good as PIV's.
PicassoIV also has four channel audio mixer. You don't need sound card for mixing CD-rom, Amiga etc audio sources.
4. The Picasso IV had add-on options, although very rare. There was a very limited production of a 3D daughtercard with a 3DFX VooDoo chip for use with the very few games out that require 3D acceleration. There was also supposed to be some AHI compatible sound card attachment and TV Tuner card.
There were video encoder, tv-card and sound card modules on sale. And they weren't _that_ rare. I've seen them on pretty many people.
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@pVC,
Those add on cards are rare in the states. They were sold out by the time I got a PIV to the west coast US.
Chris
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I paid £150 for one in Feb this year. I dont think that was too expensive.
I mean for what it is, a 4Mbyte PCI gfx card it is outrageous but it's for an Amiga and they didn't make millions of them.
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Crisisdog wrote:
4. The Picasso IV had add-on options, although very rare. There was a very limited production of a 3D daughtercard with a 3DFX VooDoo chip for use with the very few games out that require 3D acceleration.
Not true. The ParaGlide (the name for this addon) was never made. Another planned but never made addon was a hardware MPEG decoder (cant remember it's name, if it ever had one)
Crisisdog wrote:
There was also supposed to be some AHI compatible sound card attachment and TV Tuner card.
Concierto = AHI Sound card
Paloma = PAL TV Tuner
Pablo = Video Encoder
All were made in limited numbers.
http://sophisticated-development.de/software/index.php
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The flicker-fixer looks excellent (better than the A3K built-in), but fire up a pinball game and watch the scrolling. ;-) I still can't get the frequencies dialed in for 100% perfection, which is a pretty serious detraction IMHO. Also, I'm not yet convinced that the image quality is superior to the CV3D.
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I have a Cv3d v2. I reckon it may be good enough for what i want it to do after all. I am not shelling out more than 1000 for it.
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It's simply the best rtg card for amiga classic but at 1000au$ even with all the modules it's way overpriced... in europe they generally go up to 250euro (wo modules) which is still a lot for outdated hardware.
One of the cool features noone mentioned was the PIP (Picture in Picture) for realtime video decoding and resizing of the window of the video player. It is used by Moovid and Riva if I remember well. It was cool when I saw it in 1999 but that was almost 10 years ago.
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alexh wrote:
Crisisdog wrote:
4. The Picasso IV had add-on options, although very rare. There was a very limited production of a 3D daughtercard with a 3DFX VooDoo chip for use with the very few games out that require 3D acceleration.
Not true. The ParaGlide (the name for this addon) was never made. Another planned but never made addon was a hardware MPEG decoder (cant remember it's name, if it ever had one)
I won't argue, but I could have sworn I saw several posts many years ago somewhere from several happy individuals who finally got some sort of 3DFX VooDoo add-on for the Picasso-IV card.
:-?
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Darn!! I just sold 5 of them for about $360 each! I haven't saturated the market yet? I could have gotten $700+ each on auction :-?
I hate leaving that much money on the table, expecially when I already get the occasional "You rip off artist" email :lol:
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They were expensive at $360 USD. No-one would have paid $700+ USD as you could get a Mediator, a Voodoo 3 and an Indivision 1200 for less!
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Crisisdog wrote:
I could have sworn I saw several posts many years ago somewhere from several happy individuals who finally got some sort of 3DFX VooDoo add-on for the Picasso-IV card.
I am 90% sure that nothing was ever made. The project was announced in July 99. They had not even started doing the design in June 2000 as it said on their website they were looking for a designer to start the PCB layout. Klaus Burkert, father of the Picasso family, died in April 2001 and with him went any chance of Village Tronic making anything Amiga ever again.
Also there is no sign of any Voodoo 1 drivers for the Amiga in any form (Mediator / Prometheus)
Only MastaTabs aka Tobias Seiler knows for sure.
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alexh wrote:
They were expensive at $360 USD. No-one would have paid $700+ USD as you could get a Mediator, a Voodoo 3 and an Indivision 1200 for less!
Linky link (http://cgi.ebay.com/Picasso-IV-RTG-for-Commodore-Amiga-2000-3000-4000_W0QQitemZ110308566035QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Computers_Vintage?hash=item110308566035&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)
They are worth what people will pay for them. At ~$360 they were goggled up like crazy as soon as I would list them. I seriously under priced them for the market.
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@red
I don't see how you're a rip-off artist if someone willingly pays whatever amount for an item on auction. Blah.
@alexh
Klaus Burkert, father of the Picasso family, died in April 2001 and with him went any chance of Village Tronic making anything Amiga ever again.
How/why is that? Is he the only one who knew the system that well?
I picked one up about four years ago for about $300. Very pleased with that purchase, just hoping the thing never gives out on me.
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@red
Around the time you sold your first round, there were a number of completed PIV listings from $300-$400. Yours were probably worth a bit more considering they were mint/boxed, but I think you priced them fairly considering the usual ebay market. I think one of the reasons people bought them up so quickly is the fact that you're a trusted, no BS seller.
IMHO the $700 PIV listing is one of those oddball things like the $900 scandoubler. (Notice, no scandoubler has ever sold for anywhere near that amount before or since.)
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Interestingly, it seems another one of jimbo's auctions (http://cgi.ebay.com/Ariadne-Network-Card-for-Commodore-Amiga-2000-3000-4000_W0QQitemZ110308565976QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Computers_Vintage?hash=item110308565976&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318) is heading towards 3 times what the item often sells for.
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@red
Most of the PIV auctions that I have witnessed, end at around +-$400. Picked mine up for $365 boxed with all the software and manuals. Looks like it was never used. If I remember correctly, the PIV retailed for something like $1200 when released. Software Hut lists them at $389.95 and I assume they are new in box. Looked through my latest back issues of Amiga World and VideoToaster Magazine and couldn't find anything on the PIV.
laterz
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I don't remember when the PIV was introduced, but I was looking through some late 90's Amazing Computing mags for reviews and info and the July '98 issue has some ads/prices:
CompuQuick $379 (US)
Software Hut (in their 'centerfold' ad) $420
Safe Harbor $439
The limited supply (although likely with a much smaller
potential market all these years later) is really keeping the 'resale value' way up there...
Also on the front cover of that issue, an Amiga Inc. announcement of Amiga OS 5.0! :-?
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I have been after one for around a decade. I finally got one in a A4000 bundle for around $300! Finally got lucky I guess!
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The PIV was released 1997. I could be way wrong about the $1200 price tag. :inquisitive: I find it tough to believe that the PIV originally sold for less than the PII.
ArcticSon wrote:
July '98 issue has some ads/prices:
CompuQuick $379 (US)
Software Hut (in their 'centerfold' ad) $420
Safe Harbor $439
Could you scan those pages to .pdf and share them with the rest of the class? :-D
laterz
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T3000 wrote:
If I remember correctly, the PIV retailed for something like $1200 when released. The PIV was released 1997. I could be way wrong about the $1200 price tag.
Here is a review of the PIV in Feb 1997, which as a few weeks after launch. The price is $439
http://de4.aminet.net/docs/rview/PicassoIV.txt
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Worth a lot more now!! :-D
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jimbo100 wrote:
Worth a lot more now!! :-D
It would seem so. But I'd be amazed if the bidders on that auction actually pay out once they come to their senses.
LoadWB wrote:
alexh wrote:
Klaus Burkert, father of the Picasso family, died in April 2001 and with him went any chance of Village Tronic making anything Amiga ever again.
How/why is that? Is he the only one who knew the system that well?
I do not know all the details. I'm not even sure he was still working at / contracted to VT at the time of his death. It could just be a coincidence that VT pulled all development at that date.
Klaus was one of the older members of VT, the driving force behind Amiga development and once he was gone, I am sure it would have been the excuse VT needed to cancel all expensive, non profitable Amiga hardware production.
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alexh wrote:
Klaus was one of the older members of VT, the driving force behind Amiga development and once he was gone, I am sure it would have been the excuse VT needed to cancel all expensive, non profitable Amiga hardware production.
Potential opportunity for Individual Computers or E3B? In all seriousness, I had planned to buy a Mediator for my 4000D up until the advent of the Deneb. With a native SVGA and Amiga over SD/FF (PIV,) network (X-Surf 3cc,) and USB (Deneb,) I see little use of a PCI expansion. Even sound should be feasible with a USB audio adapter.
A redrumloa or AmigaKit Christmas bundle of a Zorro III video card like the PIV and a Deneb would be a power purchase for the Zorro III system owner.
But, then again, I do like the idea of showing PC guys that my nearly two-decade old Amiga can use PCI cards, and the ease of cheap replacements is appealing -- I have TONS of S3 Virge, ATI, and other video cards laying around.
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I guess I could be a rich man selling my stuff to the US or even more Australia. The pricedifferences between those markets and Europes market is all blown out of proportion :-o
I recently got a "split" PicassoIV for 136 EUR in a free bidding. I know that this is on the cheaper side, but those cards go seldomly for more then 200 EUR in Europe.
Now I have three PIV all with Paloma TV add on
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LoadWB wrote:
Potential opportunity for Individual Computers or E3B?
Maybe. Unfortunately perhaps a little late for A1200 owners. I tried to convince Jens to include an FPGA capable of being a gfx card in the Indivision but he (quite rightly) said he wasn't interested in overcoming the associated problems and that a top quality scandoubler was all the public wanted.
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Would it be better to have a CyberstormPPC together with a Picasso IV or CyberVisionPPC?
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Both - like I have, and Voodoo3, too :-D
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zipper wrote:
Both - like I have, and Voodoo3, too :-D
If there's one thing I hate, it's GREED :lol:
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@T3000
I can do the scanning, sure. It probably won't be until this Fri or Sat though, due to a packed week coming up. It's the ads that are of interest, or the OS 5.0 'announcement' by Jeff Schindler? Or both!?!
-Steve
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If there's one thing I hate, it's GREED :lol:
Preferably stingy - won't give up anything which may be used sometimes (or then not :roll: )
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alexh wrote:
jimbo100 wrote:
Worth a lot more now!! :-D
It would seem so. But I'd be amazed if the bidders on that auction actually pay out once they come to their senses.
Be amazed, payments are coming in for the items!
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Congrats man, you really lucked out! :pint:
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For anyone who wanted to see the Amiga Inc. 1998 Amiga OS5
announcement coverage in Amazing Computing, or the vintage
SoftHut, etc. ads, I've scanned them into a PDF one can
download here... (be mindful it is a 28Mbyte file).
Link (http://www.itsonlyagame.net/AmigaOS5_PlusAds.pdf)
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Scary stuff. That was the last WoA I ever went to. It was sh!te compared to years gone by. More of a car boot sale.
I used my position at Argonaut software to get into the closed doors developers meetings where I met people from Vulcan and a few others. Anyhow the Amiga guys were assholes. Their tech guy, an indian man, who seemed to be so knowledgeable in general conversation, knew almost nothing about Amiga architecture and even less about hardware design and FPGA's.
In the meeting they were bullsh!ting that they had a 400MHz 3D accelerator architecture in development to rival 3DFX and nVidia and what they actually had was a development board from a 3rd party company called... what were they called... something... brothers?? Bros? (no not bitmap).... Baltic / Scandinavian company cannot remember but their designs never got made. I recognised the photos from the web instantly embarrassing several of the Amiga execs in conversation.
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alexh wrote:
Scary stuff. That was the last WoA I ever went to. It was {bleep}e compared to years gone by. More of a car boot sale.
I used my position at Argonaut software to get into the closed doors developers meetings where I met people from Vulcan and a few others. Anyhow the Amiga guys were assholes. Their tech guy, an indian man, who seemed to be so knowledgeable in general conversation, knew almost nothing about Amiga architecture and even less about hardware design and FPGA's.
In the meeting they were {bleep}ting that they had a 400MHz 3D accelerator architecture in development to rival 3DFX and nVidia and what they actually had was a development board from a 3rd party company called... what were the called... something... brothers?? Bros? (no not bitmap).... Baltic / Scandinavian company cannot remember but their designs never got made. I recognised the photos from the web instantly embarrassing several of the Amiga execs in conversation.
Were you involved with the SuperFX chip dev?
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Found this Picasso IV review (http://mm.iit.uni-miskolc.hu/Amiga/AR/ar504_Sections/review5.html)
Thanks ArcticSon for the Amiga 5.0 article and the ads. I recall listening to the same convergance sphiel at Amiwest'98.
I swear those cards went for way more new...:egad:
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In the meeting they were {bleep}ting that they had a 400MHz 3D accelerator architecture in development to rival 3DFX and nVidia and what they actually had was a development board from a 3rd party company called... what were the called... something... brothers?? Bros? (no not bitmap).... Baltic / Scandinavian company cannot remember but their designs never got made. I recognised the photos from the web instantly embarrassing several of the Amiga execs in conversation.
Bitboys, Glaze3D (finnish) - I think there was some ideas that have been used further in 3D chip development.
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Found this Picasso IV review (http://mm.iit.uni-miskolc.hu/Amiga/AR/ar504_Sections/review5.html)
Thanks :pint:
One of the cool features noone mentioned was the PIP (Picture in Picture) for realtime video decoding and resizing of the window of the video player. It is used by Moovid and Riva
I've recently bought MoovidPPC version and it now looks like the CV64/3D will be being replaced by a Picasso IV :-)
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I am 90% sure that nothing was ever made. The project was announced in July 99. They had not even started doing the design in June 2000 as it said on their website they were looking for a designer to start the PCB layout. Klaus Burkert, father of the Picasso family, died in April 2001 and with him went any chance of Village Tronic making anything Amiga ever again.
Only MastaTabs aka Tobias Seiler knows for sure.
I think they were testing an adapted Mac Voodoo card as the source but because of form factors the PCB should be totally redesigned. It was once cancelled, then after PIV users collected some 150-250 names as sort of preorderers they continued the project until it got finally cancelled.
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bloodline wrote:
Were you involved with the SuperFX chip dev?
I worked in that dept. But I was still at school when the SuperFX was designed 1991. When I was at Argonaut in 1997/8 I worked in the ARC department (which was the new name for the SuperFX). http://www.arc.com
I got to meet some cool people there including all the original SuperFX team. I got to play on the unreleased StarFox 2 (because the finished source code + binaries were lying around on the network) and I got countless devkits & manuals from yesteryear because halfway through my time at Argonaut they moved offices and threw everything that was not current away. PSOne, Saturn, SNES, Amiga, Atari Jaguar, Atari Lynx, 3DO, Archimedes all recovered during the longest skip-dive event in history! (3 days!)
zipper wrote:
Bitboys, Glaze3D (finnish) - I think there was some ideas that have been used further in 3D chip development.
Yup that was it. "Bitboys Oy". You've got a better memory than I. I dunno if they ever admitted that was the design Amiga Inc. intended to license but it was obvious.
I dunno if Bitboys had announced anything publicly at the time but Argonaut had been sent a demo board with FPGA samples running at a very low frame rate and a VHS cassette tape of what it could do (DVD-video didnt exist at the time)
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A4000_Mad wrote:
zipper wrote:
Both - like I have, and Voodoo3, too :-D
If there's one thing I hate, it's GREED :lol:
Wouldnt the SAM do things better yet? :)
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You are welcome! Glad to provide the tiny "time capsule"!
-Steve