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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: zonaps2 on November 10, 2008, 06:42:35 PM
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I've got this 1084s-D1 Commodore Monitor that I bought brand new in 1990 toghether with my A500, and I was wondering if it can be connected to a PC video card to use as a external preview monitor for video editing. Is that possible? For color correcting I think a monitor like this is better than an LCD, and Amigas always were good for video production.
If I build a custom cable will it work?
Besides it work or not, anyone with experience recommend this monitor for this purpose?
thankS!
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It will only work if the PC can output 15KHz screenmodes.
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Use the composite connector or a Svideo cable that has a couple of separate signals into a coupler of some sort. I use the Amiga 1084 with the PC Video Toaster 5.2 all the time.
ALthough they are not real field monitors they do the job quite well and have a higher dot pitch than even modern day crt tv's.
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I see..., A year ago I build an Arcade Machine that uses an arcade monitor (15khz) with a PC. I remember I've used a little app called Soft15khz to output the signal. So maybe I had to do a similar work on the 1084s.
edit: thanks Crom00, I didn't remember the composite input on the monitor. I'll try that and see how it works.
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IT WORKS!!!!
Looks pretty good, now I'm gonna calibrate it for better color correction.
BIG THANKS!
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S-Video is Y/C, so it should be possible to go directly to Y/C. On the 1084 this would be labeled "Luma / Chroma," where one of those inputs also accepts composite under the obscure term "CVBS."
I had one of the non-S models with, IIRC, a couple DIN connectors and a DB9 just for TTL/CGA; on those I believe you could also input Y/C on one of the DINs depending what cables you had lying around and which 'input' you wanted your source to be on the front switch.
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zonaps2 wrote:
IT WORKS!!!!
Looks pretty good, now I'm gonna calibrate it for better color correction.
BIG THANKS!
Ah well, I thought I'd advice using an old EGA ISA card but apparently this'll do :-)
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Thanks for the help as always! Can't believe I'm working with my Commodore monitor again!
thanks.
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So how did you do it?
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As Chrom00 said, using the composite video-in instead of VGA, and plug it into the S-video out of the video card on the PC.
Like a TV-out!
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Hello,
I have an IBM ThinkPad T22 which has a S-Video output port. I was wondering if I could my Commodore 1084s-D1 monitor to this laptop, and if so what type of S-Video do I need? I know that one end of this S-Video need to be the standard connector, but I am not sure about the other end that goes to the back of 1084s-D1 monitor.
Any help would be really appreciated!
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/10842sd1_2_big.jpg
http://www.ehow.com/how_8020255_use-port-ibm-thinkpad-t22.html
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Hello,
I have an IBM ThinkPad T22 which has a S-Video output port. I was wondering if I could my Commodore 1084s-D1 monitor to this laptop, and if so what type of S-Video do I need? I know that one end of this S-Video need to be the standard connector, but I am not sure about the other end that goes to the back of 1084s-D1 monitor.
Any help would be really appreciated!
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/10842sd1_2_big.jpg
http://www.ehow.com/how_8020255_use-port-ibm-thinkpad-t22.html
Yes. You need an svideo to dual RCA cable. As mentioned previously by "floid" svideo is a name for Y/C connection "Luma / Chroma". Look up the pinouts for an svideo cable you will find both Y-Luma and C-Chroma marked with an associated ground. The Svideo Y-pin or cable wire goes to the centre pin of an RCA plug. The Y ground goes to the outer RCA connector. The same for the chroma connection.
On the 1084 the Luma Plug goes into the Video (yellow) socket on the back of the monitor. The Chroma plug goes into Chroma (Red) socket. You will end up with a cable something like this: (Attached. Sorry for the poor drawing)
(Remember these are the pinouts for the plug on your video card / laptop.)
The best way to do this is take an existing svideo cable and chop one end off rewiring it to 2 x RCA as per the schematic. Works for me.
If you dont know how to solder I think there are RCA plugs that allow you to just crimp the wires in. Otherwise you could use an old RCA audio connector set (Red and white plugs & cable) and cut the heads off one end to do a twisted wire test. Obviously you need to have a basic electrical understanding to do this. (Disclaimer)
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Thanks, too technical for me, I wish there was a 'ready-made' off-the shelf that I could buy!
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Ack. Y/C aka S-video aka Luma/Chroma is way better than CVBS aka composite (sharper image, crisper colors, no color bleeding/wavy edges).
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In a pinch you can use an S-Video to composite converter. The image quality will be bad, but it'll work - and it's an off-the-shelf part.
I did something similar on my C64: used a standard RCA y-cable to merge the C64's Luma/Chroma signals into a single plug. Functional, but not pretty!
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composite can be ok. still, I think you should try RGB with VGA->SCART.
there's a program called "SciTech Display Doctor" that might enable PAL modes on your video card.
Linux can do it too: http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/vga2scart/
I have no idea if VGA2SCART works, but that would be best quality, so I'd try it out.
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The adapter in the schematic gertsy posted is available here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-Video-Monitor-Adapter-RCA-M-DIN-Commodore-64-128-New-/130619779983?pt=Video_Games_Accessories&hash=item1e698bab8f
I made one with parts from Radio Shack, wasn't hard at all and provides a much better picture than composite.
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I see..., A year ago I build an Arcade Machine that uses an arcade monitor (15khz) with a PC. I remember I've used a little app called Soft15khz to output the signal. So maybe I had to do a similar work on the 1084s.
Yes that would probably work fine & the image quality will be much better than composite or svideo.
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I just use a male DIN -> female RCA (the other way around would have worked better) adapter I bought at the surplus store. The colour codes don't match up and I had to connect a set of RCA cables between the adapter and the monitor, but it works perfectly.
I used it with my mac mini for a few months when I had no proper monitor, and it worked fine.
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I am about to embark on converting a S-Video cable to dual RCA. The question is, how do I determine if my PC can output 15KHz screenmodes.
Do you know any Video card (ATi or nVIDIA) that are capable of this? Better yet, can my existing IBM ThinkPad T22, which sports a S-Video OUT connector do the job?
Thanks!
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S-video is always 15kHz, the hardware in the video card does the conversion for you.
You only need to set a 15kHz screenmode on the PC if you want to connect the 15kHz monitor via RGB.
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Thanks for the quick response. The thing that I don't understand on gertsy's diagram, is that the S-Video to Dual RCA, already comes with, well...Dual RCA, so why do I still need to perform any cuttings?
I mean the S-VIDEO connector goes to the back of my PC (video card/IBM ThinkPad), and the other end, the two RCA each need to go to Yellow (Luma) and Red (Chroma), so why do I need to do any cuttings then?
He says: "The best way to do this is take an existing svideo cable and chop one end off rewiring it to 2 x RCA as per the schematic.", well, if I get a S-VIDEO to Dual RCA, then do I still need any cuttings?
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Ive not seen a video card with tv out that cant output to 15khz. Not just this, but 1024x768 non interlace 15khz as well (this varies card to card, but at least 800x600 is pretty much guaranteed). Lower than 640x480 though might require creating a custom screenmode (not difficult, both nvidia control centre and catalyst drivers have inbuilt tools by default for doing this).
PCs and associated hardware are pretty darn flexible for video work these days.
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Yes, the more I re-read gertsy's post, the more convinced I am that if I use a S-Video to DUAL male RCA, then there is not need fro any cutting.
(I don't know why kedawa mentioned female RCA!?)
Is this that simple then?
p.s. my goal is to connect my PC/IBM ThinkPad, to 1084S-D1, and play MAME and other emulators, since they look pixalated on my LCD/Laptop screens (no matter what filter/smoothing features I turn on), and the jaggies tend to soften off (anti-aliased) naturally and much better on an older monitor such as 1084S-D1.
So the question is, would a cable like this, would do the job (no cuttings of course):
http://www.showmecables.com/images/catalog/product/s-vhs-y-cable.jpg
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It is that simple. Gertsy was referring to a standard S-video cable with two mini-DIN plugs. You chop of one of them and replace it with two RCAs.
Usually, you can also use a cable like this for composite only, just unplug one of the RCAs (and possibly move the one plug left over) and reset the video mode. Composite may look better for gaming if you like that 'smudged' look.
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Usually, you can also use a cable like this for composite only
When you say composite, you mean the other end also should have two RCA (instead of S-Video), right?
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Thanks, too technical for me, I wish there was a 'ready-made' off-the shelf that I could buy!
They sell these cables at places like Maplins.
Also an S-video to phono plug is available but you will need to set the output to composite in the advanced prefs of display options in Windows on T22.
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When you say composite, you mean the other end also should have two RCA (instead of S-Video), right?
No, the exact same cable. You plug one of the RCAs (which one depends on the hardware) into CVBS/composite and leave the other one dangling. Of course you can also use a straight RCA cable and the mini-DIN-to-RCA adapter that came with your graphics card.
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Of course you can also use a straight RCA cable and the mini-DIN-to-RCA adapter that came with your graphics card.
.. but that's for a 7 pin mini-din with the composite signal in the center pins, please don't bring those into the discussion ..
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"and leave the other one dangling. "
So if I connect just one RCA, then it becomes a composite, and if I connect both an S-Video cable then? (sorry for n00bie questions!)
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hmm I think maybe in your case you would have to combine the Luma and Chroma (y and c) into one cable with a y splitter and then go into composite with that. But to be honest why would you do that? Always run Y/C (svid) if you can
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Success! Thanks to all, I managed to get a S-Video to single male RCA, as well as a RCA "Y" Cable, and combined the two, and it works on my ThinkPad T22!
QUESTION:
Now, I might be pushing it, but is there any way to utilize the RGB connector in the back of 1084S-D1 and connect it to the VGA connector of the PC (or in my case Laptop)?
I am sure the image quality would be much better!
Thanks.
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Now, I might be pushing it, but is there any way to utilize the RGB connector in the back of 1084S-D1 and connect it to the VGA connector of the PC (or in my case Laptop)?
Pretty unlikely, at least, not without some converters the likes of which I can't recall seeing.
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Success! Thanks to all, I managed to get a S-Video to single male RCA
*cough* that's hardly S-video *cough*
Seriously, if you're happy go with it.
For the record, you require *two* RCA connections (or any two signals on whatever connector for that matter) for S-video to work. Combining them into a single signal is composite (more or less). Due to frequency overlap a simple combining will usually degrade the resolution to below composite. The adapter you're using may have an integrated low-pass filter to solve this problem.
What I meant with the dangling RCA plug is that *many* (possibly most) mini-DIN outputs use just one of the signals if you're down to composite and don't use the other one - if configured to composite that is, this doesn't magically change because you pull a plug. This lets you use a single S-video connector cable for both S-video and composite (not simultaneously, of course) without requiring an additional adapter/cable. *Some* mini-DIN outputs with >4 contacts use a dedicated contact, so the dangling won't work - depending on the hardware in question. Anyway...
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*cough* that's hardly S-video *cough*
My current connection is as follows: I managed to obtain a S-Video (one end) to DUAL female RCA.
Then I obtained a Male RCA, Y-Splitter cable (all three ends are Male), and connected this to my S-Video cable above.
Then I connected one end of the cable (S-Video) to the back of my IBM ThinkPad, and the other TWO Male RCA connectors to Y (Luma) and C (chroma) of my 1084S-D1.
Is this still NOT a true S-Video hookup???
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Yes that is svideo (y/c) hookup. *cough* :rollseyes
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Thanks!
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I'm not quite following all your steps..
My current connection is as follows: I managed to obtain a S-Video (one end) to DUAL female RCA.
OK, good, so from an S-video plug to dual RCA. So far so good..
Then I obtained a Male RCA, Y-Splitter cable (all three ends are Male), and connected this to my S-Video cable above.
What?
Did you just take both RCA plugs (Chroma and Luma) and join them to a single RCA plug?
If so (and I'm not sure), that's no longer s-video..
Or do you have 2 Y splitters and you are just using them as a gender bender???
Then I connected one end of the cable (S-Video) to the back of my IBM ThinkPad, and the other TWO Male RCA connectors to Y (Luma) and C (chroma) of my 1084S-D1.
And this is where I'm totally lost..
What happened to the Y splitter?
You need to go from s-video to separate chroma and luma, and they have to stay separate all the way to the monitor...
I'm sure I just misread something...
desiv
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Do you think this 15Khz RGB CGA/Component YCbCr to VGA Converter Scale
http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html
Would be able to allow my ThinkPad IBM to be connected to Commodore 1084S-D1 through VGA? (RGB to VGA that is)
http://site.ambery.com/webgraph/AV1-CablingSetup.gif
What do you think?
Supports legacy computer devices such as Amiga, Atari, etc with compatible RGB output spec.
Thanks!
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What about this unit?
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/images/a/a6/Xrgb-3_back.jpg
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB-3
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I'm pretty sure all those units are for taking a 15khz screen (Amiga, old video game console, etc) and displaying them on a VGA monitor.
You are talking about taking a PC and scaling it DOWN to 15khz for RGB.
I haven't seen that type of hardware...
I have seen some drivers that can do that type of thing for using a DOS MAME PC with an Arcade monitor. And the ArcadeVGA card can do that with full Windows drivers, but that doesn't sound like what you want..
If I understand it, you want to preview whatever is on your PC in whatever resolution to the 1084s.
In that case, a VGA to S-Video adapter is going to be your best bet, I think....
(And many (well???) laptops and PCs already output s-video...)
desiv
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a VGA to S-Video adapter is going to be your best bet
Yes, exactly! Is there such a thing? Also, by looking at the website again, I think that their propriety cable (9 pin DN to 15 pin VGA) might do the trick?
http://site.ambery.com/webgraph/CGA-VGACable.jpg
I also found the 15khz software:
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Soft-15khz
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No, you're looking for something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-PC-Laptop-VGA-to-RCA-AV-TV-Monitor-S-Video-Signal-Adapter-Switch-Box-/250998657819?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3a70af931b
No idea if / or how well it works..
But it matches the description.
You'll still need an s-video to separate chroma/luma cable to connect that to the 1084s.
desiv
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I see. Thanks for the link. As you mentioned, basically I am trying to connect my IBM ThinkPad, with various emulators (SEGA, SNES, MAME, NEO.GEO, etc.) running on Win XP, and connect it to my 1084S-D1 monitor. The ThinkPad LCD (or when connected to a regular VGA CRT monitor), shows the graphics pixellated (I don't like to turn on those software based filters, to smooth out the image), so that is why I am trying to connect it to a 1084S-D1: The S-Video smooths out the image considerably, but it has flicker (I even set the refresh rate under Windows settings to 75Hz and still see it).
Can anyone verify that the device which desiv posted would work?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-PC-Laptop-VGA-to-RCA-AV-TV-Monitor-S-Video-Signal-Adapter-Switch-Box-/250998657819?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3a70af931b
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I see. Thanks for the link. As you mentioned, basically I am trying to connect my IBM ThinkPad, with various emulators (SEGA, SNES, MAME, NEO.GEO, etc.) running on Win XP, and connect it to my 1084S-D1 monitor.
I don't understand why you are not just using the S-VIDEO output on your Thinkpad to go to the 1084. Why buy an expensive VGA to [whatever analogue NTSC mode] converter when the Thinkpad already converts its video to S-VIDEO NTSC analogue?
All you need is a $5 S-VIDEO to dual RCA (Chroma/Luma) cable and connect that to the appropriate connectors on the back of the 1084.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/1084%20monitor%20connectors/elboaconstricto/1084s-p.jpg
Note:
Do NOT merge the two RCA outputs together. You lose the advantage of S-VIDEO this way (unless you really want a more smeared retro composite video look).
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Yes, going with a simple cable mini-DIN ("S-video") to dual RCA is the easiest, cheapest and probably best quality route. You only need to configure the S-video port to output a signal (if it doesn't all the time already).
If that isn't possible for whatever reason (driver or software problem) then you can also go the expensive route with an external VGA-to-video converter. But you'll also need to activate that VGA port of yours...
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Thanks, I have already connected my IBM ThinkPad to 1084S-D1 that way (S-Video to Luma/Chroma), but I was under the impression that if I connect it via VGA to RGB, I will get a better/flicker free image (superior to S-Video).
I will post the images shortly...
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The flicker you see is inherent to the standard: NTSC has only 480 lines delivered in two interlaced fields alternating with just 30 Hz - very visible for high contrast edges. While this is true for a high fidelity (=no processing) conversion, some converters apply filtering (possibly even adaptive) to the image and reduce the flicker substantially. (With adaptive filtering only blurring the image where it's necessary.)
The output of my first S-video capable graphics card (Kyro II aka PowerVR 3) was flickering very badly (comparable to Amiga video), but the output of its replacement (GF4 Ti4200) was much more tolerable yet a bit blurred due to non-adaptive filtering.
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I wish there was a way to make a similar cable (VGA to RGB):
http://www.bordersdown.net/showthread.php/36436-Connecting-a-Megadrive-to-a-Commodore-1084s-monitor/page6
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I was under the impression that if I connect it via VGA to RGB, I will get a better/flicker free image (superior to S-Video).
Nope.
The 1084S flickers with interlace resolutions. Just it's design.. (Zac67 beat me to the answer..)
And you'd have to downscale your Thinkpads resolution and frequency to something the 1084s understands on RGB.
I haven't seen a device that does that...
s-video is going to be your best bet, but s-video is generally pretty darn good to be honest. ;-)
desiv
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No even if I use software 15khz or similar software?
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Here are the screen-shots of my S-Video connection to Luma/Chroma:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7153600027/in/photostream/lightbox/
The first two of from my ThinkPad's LCD, showing you the settings that I am using, third image an up are the actual screenshots of the gameply on 1084S-D1.
I think they look pretty good.
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Not even if I use software 15khz or similar software?
It's not the 15khz, it's the vertical resolution.
If you are only showing a low-res screen, like 320x200 or 640x200, there's no flicker.
But when you up the resolution, you get into "Interlace" ranges, (320x400 or 640x400) and those flicker on the 1084, no matter what..
Yeah, those pics look pretty good. I don't think you'll get much better than that.. ;-)
desiv
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Thanks! OK one last thing:
If I order this cable:
http://site.ambery.com/webgraph/CGA-VGACable.jpg
http://site.ambery.com/webgraph/CGA-VGACable-Connector.gif
Can I connect my ThinkPad via its VGA and connect the other end (9 pin) In combination, can I use a 15Khz software that lets me lower the resolution/frequency of ThinkPad to match 1084S-D1?
I connected my real Amiga 2500 (via 9 pin to 15pin) and its image is superior to that S-Video that I am getting from my ThinkPad.
there is got to be a way to convert VGA to RGB with superior video quality over S-Video. Right?
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MAME games are as limited in resolution as Amiga titles. The image quality doesn't actually change much when scaled up (to VGA/SVGA/XVGA/...), so when it's scaled back down (to NTSC) it's pretty much as before. ;)
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Tcan I use a 15Khz software that lets me lower the resolution/frequency of ThinkPad to match 1084S-D1?
You can try something like Advanced MAME, which lets you tweak your video settings to output 15khz, if your video chip supports it.
Never tried this, but it might work in Windows:
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Custom_display_modes_%28Windows%29_-_Soft-15khz (http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Custom_display_modes_%28Windows%29_-_Soft-15khz)
I think you can do similar things with PowerStrip.
desiv
Warning, sending wrong signals to the monitor could damage it...
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No even if I use software 15khz or similar software?
You do realize that the signal output by your ThinkPad's S-VIDEO port is already 15KHz, right??
This 15KHz software you speak of probably only affects the timing of the VGA port.
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This 15KHz software you speak of probably only affects the timing of the VGA port.
I assume so as well..., since it will "fool" the monitor that it is connected to an older device (i.e. Amiga, Atari, etc.)
As you know, if you connect a real Amiga to 1084S-D1 via S-Video it looks inferior compared to when you connect it using a DB 15-pin to DB 9-pin cable.
If I determine what is Amiga's native resolution/frequency when connected to 1084S-D1 via a 15pin to 9pin cable, then I might be able to buy a VGA to DB 9-pin, and in Windows environment somehow change reslution/frequency, so my MAME and other emulators, look as sharp as when a real Amiga is connected to my 1084S-D1 (again using a DB 15-pin to DB 9-pin).
Surely, 1084S-D1's RGB port, somehow must be able to receive a comparable signal from ThinkPad (or a modern computer for that matter), and convert this into something comparable to a real Amiga video signal. My issue with S-Video (from ThinkPad) to Y/C on 1084S-D1 is that it is NOT as sharp as when you connect a real Amiga to 1084S-D1 using a a DB 15-pin to DB 9-pin cable.
http://www.ambery.com/db9todbadca.html
Well, what is through software in Windows (PowerStrip, 15Khz, etc.) I might be able to adjust this?
Someone is making a progress here:
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4096.0
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=DB+9pin+vga
There has to be a way...
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Looks like it is possible and have been already done here!
http://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=127.0
"No need extra converter, VGA to SCART in RGB will work fine BUT you'll have to use AdvanceMame under DOS, or, more easy for setup : buy an Ultimarc's ArcadeVGA and you'll be able to use windows. I strongly suggest you that option if you never worked under dos and AdvanceMame config"
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"No need extra converter, VGA to SCART in RGB will work fine BUT you'll have to use AdvanceMame under DOS, or, more easy for setup : buy an Ultimarc's ArcadeVGA and you'll be able to use windows. I strongly suggest you that option if you never worked under dos and AdvanceMame config"
I mentioned AdvanceMAME above.. ;-)
I didn't mention ArcadeVGA as you have a laptop. It's a card for PCs..
And if your chipset is supported by soft-15khz or powerstrip, you can use those.
desiv
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Yes, you did, thank you. The reason I was using the laptop was the fact that it had a video card that supported S-Video out, but when I installed the soft 15Khz, the utility did not detect its GPU (not supported). On my Desktop PC, which has a nVIDIA 6200 (AGP), it detected the GPU and installed the soft 15Khz. The only thing remains is hacking my VGA to DB9 cable and to test it out!
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Thanks for your response. I am having someone hack a VGA to RGB (15 to 9) cable for me, and I have asked his to use this schematic:
http://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=127.0
(The first message in that thread, by user named "DarthNuno")
The thing is, I am not entirely sure if that is accurate or not.
For example this page, has a different pin schematic:
http://www.gamesx.com/hwb/co_C1084dd.html
And user named "funkycochise", in this forum, has used a yet another one:
http://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=127.15
On male connector witch to be plugged on the female of the monitor :
1. Gnd
2. -
3. Red
4. Green
5. Blue
6. -
7. Sync
8. -
9. -
Would you kindly verify WHICH ONE is the correct pin layout/shcematic please? I don't want to have this guy make this cable (he is charging a bit high) to realize that is not the correct one! Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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OK, my first attempt is not successful I guess. This is what I did:
1) I went out I bought a D9M-15HF "Gender Changer" adapter, and a male Db9 Serial cable. (already had a male-male VGA).
2) Installed 15Khz soft utility on my PC desktop (nVIDIA 6200 AGP, which has 1VGA, 1DVI and 1S-Video out)
3) lowered my resolution to 640x480.
4) Restarted Windows XP
5) Connected my 1084S-D1, via the cable contraption that I mentioned in step 1.
6) 1084S-D1 only displays garbled red video signal. I even changed my VGA cable for a different one, pressed on buttons in the back of 1084S-D1, nothing changed however.
All screenshots are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48901682@N02/7162721710/in/photostream/lightbox/
I am asking someone to make a cable for me, according to the following instructions:
http://www.dragonslairfans.com/smfor/index.php?topic=127.0
So hopefully I have better success with this one.
I will keep you posted.