Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: amiga4ever on November 09, 2008, 04:42:25 PM
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Hello all,
Ok, I know the title is flamatory, but that was only to grab people's attention. I hope i do not put anyone off reading! This is not intended as a "my OS is better than yours thread"...if I wanted that I would have posted this in either AmigaWorld or MorphZone. I post here at Amiga.org hoping for nuatral adult advice.
I am considering buying either a Peg2/MorphOS 2 or SAM/AOS 4.1 system and I basically would like people's IMPARTIAL (if that's posible!!) opinions on the the advantages and disadvantages of each system.
I'm interested in the little details I guess. Like I already know that MOS2 is binary compatible with 68k and so can run old OS friendly apps from classic AmigaOS. Is the same true for AOS4.1 ??? Also, what about memory management features of AOS4.1, I know it has it but is it a big advantage over MOS2?
I already know of the broad issues of price, etc.
What are the streaghts and weaknesses of each system in comparison to each other (not in comparison to Windows/Linux)
Thanks in advance for any opinions, comparisons you can offer.
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Is the same true for AOS4.1 ???
Yes, OS4 is 68K compatible. Has been forever. System-friendly stuff only, obviously, and that goes for MorphOS, too. I found 4.0 to be a little more crash-happy with 68K stuff than MorphOS. I haven't yet tried 4.1, but it sounds a little more stable.
Regarding multimedia, the MorphOS MPlayer port is zillions of times better than the current OS4 version. But TuneNet, an OS4-only audio player, supports a zillion different audio formats.
I prefer MUI to ReAction. I think MorphOS's (MUI-based) GUI configurability is easier and more powerful than 4.0's. Again, I don't yet know what's changed in 4.1.
I really dislike the use of shared objects in OS4 (There's a new directory called SYS:SObjs). They should really be Amiga shared libraries instead.
Bottom line, though, I think you'll be satisfied no matter which you chose.
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IMHO MorphOS is the smarter choice for a couple of reasons. One of the biggest advantages is the better hardware support: You have support for Efika, Pegasos 1&2 and soon G4 Mac Mini.
While the Sam may be a nice board its price/performance ratio is really poor, plus OA4.x has nothing to offer that MorphOS hasn't (but that is my personal assessment).
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and what about the WarpOS support ?
It's not yet adapted to AOS4.1 for SAM440...
while it's ok with GOA on MOS side
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On MorphOS WarpOS and Warp3D just works fine (I still like and play WipeOut 2097 on my Pegasos very much). But also PowerUp applications are no prob on MorphOS. Also the OS4 Emu (which is no emulation, but an API wrapper) enables many OS4 apps to run on MorphOS.
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@zylesea
"better hardware support" Both are pathetic in that. Both have only one board available to buy, both dream about the not-anymore-in-production MacMini.
"While the Sam may be a nice board its price/performance ratio is really poor" Exactly the same goes also for Efika. Efika cost less but also gives less.
If HW has to be taken into account in choosing the OS, I would go (I went) for SAM because it fills the minimum specs of a usable NG Amiga desktop. 128M RAM is not enough and one PCI slot should be free for expansion, etc...
Otherwise, I think MOS2.x and AOS4.x are both good options as the next gen AOS.
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Here some others comparisons :
- Solid movement/resize of windows are faster on OS4.
- You can buy a relatively good card with OS4 : Sam440ep.
- OS4 have the official name "Amiga".
- Dragging screen are builtin on OS4.
- OS4 have a tool for CD/DVD-RW.
- Cygnix is available on OS4.
- 3D is better supported on MorphOS.
- There are better games on MorphOS.
- PowerUP programs are supported on MorphOS.
- WarpOS programs are better supported on MorphOS.
- Warp3D programs are very well supported on MorphOS.
- 68k compatibility is a little better on MorphOS (Magellan,...)
- MorphOS have multiple mouse pointer.
- MorphOS can launch some OS4 programs.
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Solid movement/resize of windows are faster on OS4.
I would say they're as fast. Both use gfxcard hardware for GUI rendering these days. It depends more on the performance of the gfxcard really.
Cygnix is available on OS4.
And MorphOS has ixemul.
@KimmoK
both dream about the not-anymore-in-production MacMini.
dream?
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zylesea wrote:Also the OS4 Emu (which is no emulation, but an API wrapper) enables many OS4 apps to run on MorphOS.
Really not much OS4 software runs under OS4Emu, and not everything that runs works all that well.
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Piru : about windows resize, you can try with IBrowse. The difference is big. The MorphOS resize "flicker" a lot (perhaps because of the MUI configuration ?).
It's the same gfx board (Radeon 9250PRO) in both machine and the OS4 machine is slower (SDRAM memory, 933 G4) than my Pegasos II G4.
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@Piru
I know MOS already runs in a usable way on MacMini, even though the version is not yet released.
(IIRC, AOS4 has been made to boot on MacMini only as an guick and dirty experiment)
But my point is that it's not a huge advantage because PPC Macintoshes are no longer in production etc.
PEG2 was pretty much superior to the current offerings. I wonder if there is further production run in plans?
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@KimmoK
But my point is that it's not a huge advantage because PPC Macintoshes are no longer in production etc.
They're a) cheaper b) faster c) easily available via ebay or other 3rd party markets d) likely remain the fastest even remotely feasible platform for any forseeable future.
PEG2 was pretty much superior to the current offerings. I wonder if there is further production run in plans?
Not that I know of.
If you think Peg2 is superior.. well Mac Mini runs circles around Peg2 G4.
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Thank you very much guys, listening to ALL the opinions so far have been very helpful. for my requirements MorphOS appears to be leading choice right now. and if I want this peg2 (from a friend), i have to purchase it within days! if i decide to get SAM in future it will be easy as they are still making them.
piru: i have heard a rumour that there "may" be plans for it porting of MorphOS for MacMini someday? you probably cannot say much but would you "advise" to prepurchase a mini? as a hint :)
i'm still enjoying everyone's oppinions and have not decided 100% yet, so, please, if you have any other opinions please keep posting. Especially i would like to know how much advantage the memory management features of AOS4.1 are over MOS2...
thanks
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Does anyone know if the AOS4.x and MOS2.x binaries are interchangeable?
I.e. will one platform run the other's binaries? (I doubt it, but I'm interesting in knowing why, and the effort required to pull it through)
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@skurk
Does anyone know if the AOS4.x and MOS2.x binaries are interchangeable?
They are not binary compatible with each others. There is OS4Emu which adds OS4 API layer to MorphOS allowing some OS4 software to run on MorphOS. But it is not complete package at all.
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@amiga4ever
I have lots of experience with one of these two OS's but have never even seen the other in action at all. So any opinions I give would naturally be slanted towards the one I own and use daily.
In my opinion, if you a have a chance to try both systems without having to purchase either system first, then you should try out both and decide for yourself which you like better.
The official AmigaOS 4.1 GUI is Reaction, but MUI is also included for compatibility with programs which require MUI, such as IBrowse, YAM, SimpleMail, WookieChat.
Other than that, either system should meet the needs of the average Amiga user. System friendly 68K applications should work on both.
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redfox
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Cygnix is available on OS4.
And MorphOS has ixemul.
Which aren't the same thing. Cygnix provides a complete X11 environment, and thanks to this software like Abiword, Gnumeric, Gimp and Amaya have been ported to OS4/Cygnix.
Varthall
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@amiga4ever
The Amiga backwards compatibility is better in MorphOS than in OS4, but then it's a matter of taste how important this feature is for you personally. To me it's essential.
The MorphOS desktop (Ambient) is light years ahead of any Workbench.
The integrated USB stack of MorphOS (Poseidon) is the best USB stack, period! It supports USB 2.0 and a *great* number of peripheral equipment.
I think the printing system of MorphOS (Turboprint) is better than in OS4 (although I feel that printing isn't a prioritized feature in any of these two OS's).
Personally I like MUI4 (and *the many programs*(!) using it) much better than Reaction, and since the entire desktop is using this, it gives a clean and consistent user experience and opens up for some nice customization possibilities.
Sputnik (the web browser under development) is said to be ported to OS4 when it's finished for MorphOS, but until that happens it's only available for MorphOS (in beta versions).
MorphOS also has a lot of nice features that you could learn about yourself by going here (http://morphos-team.net/) and click on the "Overview" and "Features" tabs. What's important to you? Think about that for a minute, and then go read about the features yourself. And then feel free to ask more specific questions! :-)
In my eyes, MorphOS is the clear winner! :-)
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@Varthall
Which aren't the same thing. Cygnix provides a complete X11 environment
ixemul had it 12 years ago already. Most of the stuff would require configure && make.
I guess no-one bothers with those X11 apps.
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@piru
Dind't know that. I remember running a couple of ixemul-compiled programs which opened their own GUI on the Workbench, I didn't know ixemul could open an entire X11 desktop, too. As for the ported X11 programs, I'd be surprised to hear that no one uses at least Abiword and Gnumeric, since they're for now the best office applications available for OS4. I use both to open .doc and .xls files, and they have worked flawlessly on my system so far.
Varthall
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@Varthall
like piru said, geekgadgets environment allowed all that for years (or even decades now).
Some time ago, I even gave a try at recompiling X11 server, Enlightenment and GTK2 toolkit (which is the main dependancy for applications like abiword or gnumeric) to evaluate how usable it would be. While it mostly worked correctly, it felt really alien to the system, and quite slow, especially with the original X11 server. Xami X11 server (68k) is way faster.
So, after seeing that, i really thought it was useless to ""port"" x11 apps that way. That would be wasted efforts IMO.
Just some screenshot showing GTK2 demos, to "backup" my claim: http://fabportnawak.free.fr/gtk2.png :)
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@Varthall
Personally I've gotten too used to M$ Office for Mac to learn anything else. Yes, it's my failure. ;-)
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As Varthall implies, how is it that we "morphos" doesn't have a abiword port using the same logic?
disregard i guess, just saw Fab12 response....stil though, would be nice on this side!
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@zyphoid
how is it that we "morphos" doesn't have a abiword port using the same logic?
The problem is that everyone seems to have a thumb up their *ss. There is nothing preventing the port, except someone actually bothering with it.
With these niche platforms it usually boils down to:
A) learn to program and do it yourself,
B) convince someone else to do it, or
C) forget about it.
So far everyone has chosen C it seems.
I'm sorry it's late and I'm not very receptive to rethorical questions at this hour. My apologies.
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@amiga4ever
Very few people have used both MorphOS 2.0 and Amiga OS 4.1 enough to be able to give you a proper comparison. For example, I doubt that takemehomegrandma has actually tried Amiga OS 4.1 enough to support his claims about the system. You're not going to get particularly good or neutral comparisons, although you'll get some that try to sound neutral. I'm an Amiga OS 4.1 user not a MorphOS user so I can't give you a good comparison either. I can say, however that Amiga OS 4.1 is a great system.
Now to clarify a few things. I can say that Amiga OS 4.1 is a big step up from OS 4.0, so Matt_H's comparison is a little behind the time. Amiga OS 4.1 has both MPlayer and DvPlayer (an OEM version, but the full version is pretty cheap). DvPlayer is very good as a movie player. MorphOS has Sputnik, but OS 4.1 has OWB, so both have CSS capable browsers. Both have hardware compositing. Both have a lot of ports of open-source games/apps. Developers for both OSes are continually working to improve the OS and expand the number of apps.
In the end, both should feel like an Amiga, but faster and more powerful. I prefer Amiga OS 4.1; others prefer MorphOS. Take your pick, or try out both if you can.
Hans
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@Varthall
As for the ported X11 programs, I'd be surprised to hear that no one uses at least Abiword and Gnumeric, since they're for now the best office applications available for OS4.
"Ported" you say? In my world, those aren't OS4 programs in any way. I'd run those programs in their *proper* environment instead, and Amiga apps on the Amiga OS, but perhaps that's just me? To me, this isn't what Amiga is about...
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@Hans_
For example, I doubt that takemehomegrandma has actually tried Amiga OS 4.1 enough to support his claims about the system.
It would be interesting to know exactly which one of "my claims" you are referring to?
Amiga backwards compatibility? Well this is an established fact, and it hasn't happened by itself, but by hard and persistent work from the MorphOS developers to make the OS that way. This should be acknowledged, not belittled. The OS4 team didn't have this feature as prioritized as the MorphOS team, they had another vision and wanted to do things in a different way instead. I'm *not* saying OS4 sucks in this regard, only that MorphOS has *better* backwards compatibility. For instance, read what "Toaks" has to say about it here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=25274&forum=28&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0). He has both MorphOS and OS4, and what he says on that page and a few pages forward is that both systems are nice and good and all, but due to some different priorities and views, MorphOS has better backwards compatibility.
Or was it that the MorphOS desktop (Ambient) is light years ahead of any Workbench? Anyone that has used and followed Ambient's development knows how it started as an inferior desktop that everyone replaced with the original Amiga Workbench or Directory Opus Magellan the first thing they did. In MorphOS 2.0 I seriously doubt that anyone has replaced Ambient with Workbench, and this is for a reason!
Or was it the USB stack? Can you *really* claim that OS4's USB stack is better in *any* way? And the same with printing, where are the OS4 advantages?
Whether you like MUI 4.0 (and all the MUI apps out there) and appreciates a clean and consistent user interface experience when using them, as well as the MUI customization options for all the programs and the desktop itself, is a matter of taste. As I said.
Sputnik is a *native* browser, the other one is a SDL recompile. A matter of taste. Sputnik is said to become available for OS4 as well, so there might not even be a problem there. But if you are going to degrade the Amiga to some kind of loader for recompiled X11 and SDL apps, then I think someone missed a point somewhere. Use Linux instead. Heck, with a simple VNC client you could even run Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office, how about that! :-P
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@Piru
Not going to argue further about currently not existing advantage...
but...
It seems that it is possible to buy second hand G4 MacMini for the price of a new Efika. But MOS is not yet available for MacMini.
When will it be? Any rough deadline set yet?
(not going to buy any hardware that does not have any usable AmigalikeOS)
update:
According to the official information, MOS supports only Efika and Pegasos1&2. Is the classic Amiga support discontinued?
http://www.morphos.de/hardware.html
update:
Found a collection of MacMini specs:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/index-macmini.html
It seems that the 1.5Ghz version is the only sensible option. But some MOS guys say that 128M is minimum for accelerated Ambient whatever? Macmini never had that much??
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The Amiga backwards compatibility is better in MorphOS than in OS4,
To a degree, but i doubt there are many 68k apps you use on MOS that won't also work on OS4.
Personally I like MUI4 (and *the many programs*(!) using it) much better than Reaction,
Well.. back in the OS3.9 days I would have agreed that I prefer MUI to ReAction, but since OS4's ReAction has been greatly improved, I now prefer it. Then again, i'm not super familiar with MUI4, but then, I doubt you're super familiar with OS4 reaction.
and since the entire desktop is using this,
ReAction usage across OS4 is pretty comprehensive. There is very little that needs to be changed over.
ported to OS4 when it's finished for MorphOS, but until that happens it's only available for MorphOS (in beta versions).
True, but then OS4 has OWB and NetSurf. NetSurf is fast, but doesn't have JavaScript. OWB is really not that far behind Sputnik any more. Maybe tabs.. can't think of anything else.
In my eyes, MorphOS is the clear winner! :-)
Well, theres no accounting for taste. I had both, but when i needed money, I had to sell one. The Peg had to go.
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Sputnik is a *native* browser, the other one is a SDL recompile
I *can* call BS on that one. OWB hasn't been a simple SDL recompile for a *LONG* time. It has had a proper ReAction GUI for several versions. It used some functions from the SDL libraries, but a lot of the rendering code was changed to use OS4 native calls, and it has had a native ReAction GUI for a long time now.
The latest version doesn't use SDL at all. Not one bit. It only uses standard OS4 APIs. Its a lot faster than the old builds, too.
OWB grab (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/lumpbucket/owb.jpg).
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But if you are going to degrade the Amiga to some kind of loader for recompiled X11 and SDL apps
Pfft. Hardly. I don't have Cygnix installed. SDL is mainly used for games and demos, and they wouldn't really be any different even if they used Picasso96 directly.
OS4 runs plenty of Amiga 68k software, and has a pretty decent array of native software that grows all the time.
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@ Amiga4Ever:
Since takemehomegrandma got involved and showed you a website, I'll give you the old os4 website, however, bearing in mind, HANS is right, a lot more features and functionality are available now in os4.1 versus os4.0
http://os4.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php%3Foption=content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=30.html
Cheers.
P.S. You could do what I was thinking of doing, both. I only canged my mind, due to the efika clearly not usable as a daily system versus sam, even though they both are low specs, sam will provide daily and general usage for me, and will replace my windows/linux/aros/xamiga/amithlon/amikit, but will bot replace my a1000 and a1200, due to the classical floppy loading and crunching that I enjoy so much and makes me remember of my youth.
Personally, If I were you, I would only consider getting MorphOS if you can obtain a peg or something a like, forget it with efika, not worth it.
As for sam440ep, well, It arrives tomorow according to the UPS tracker, so, I canmake another comment near the end of the week perhaps!
Another Idea, maybe place your country and city down like many others here, and maybe some people on here, will give you the chance to use their MorphOS or A1/Micro/Sam os4.1.
I know I was happy using my friends A1 with the old os4.0,despite some flaws I noticed, that now, from reviews and much reading and researching, have been fixed.
IMHO, both oses have a way to go yet for the hardcore users, but for the general users, that only require general needs, both are nice niche OSes that are capable of replacing your wndows system as a daily use, however, I am keeping my pc system xp, just in case I need to run a program(doubt it, I dont take work home with me), and I suggest your best keep current pc as well for those times you get itchy to play Oblivion, or Gothic III. (smiles, yes I know, Ive been sucked in with the white sheep, but Im stil a black sheep)
Mmmm, One last note, It is important that you realise, you can have duel boot functionality anyway, meaning, you can have linux/aros/(think zeta) as well as your Amiga OS you chose in the end.
Sorry for the long writing. :-o
Cheers, and, have a shot of your friends peg before you buy it, you might not even like it, who knows, I know I wouldnt mind a peg next to my sam, and have like a day in day out swap of oses. BUT no longer windows at home use if avoidable for me, our work xp pc's are duel core,etc,etc, and extremely slow in every way, it pisses me off. even my A1200 is faster in various aspects.
:lol:
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@Matt_H
MorphOS has AmiNetRadio with tons of plugins too.
@Varthall
ixemul already allowed running X11 apps years ago, even on 68k, time before OS4 or MorphOS even existed.
You can run older versions of GIMP on 68k amigas with GeekGadgets x11 environment.
If no updated versions exist for OS3/MOS is more a problem of lack interest from developers in recompiling modern versions.
@xeron
IMHO Reaction Drag'n'drop support and custom class creation isn't as comfortable as MUI but it's a matter of personal preferences. Years ago I prefered Reaction but I have learned a little MUI coding and I think it's sligthly more comfortable for the coder and more configurable for the user. Since OS4 supports both Reaction and MUI it has the best of both worlds :-)
About OS4.1 I just hope a version is released for classics with 5volt Radeon cards :-) For CyberstormPPC it shouldn't be too hard but I guess that an A1200 version would require a scsi driver in order to attract sales.
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@takemehomegrandma
When taken together your claims form an inaccurate picture.
Amiga backwards compatibility? Well this is an established fact, and it hasn't happened by itself, but by hard and persistent work from the MorphOS developers to make the OS that way. This should be acknowledged, not belittled. The OS4 team didn't have this feature as prioritized as the MorphOS team, they had another vision and wanted to do things in a different way instead. I'm *not* saying OS4 sucks in this regard, only that MorphOS has *better* backwards compatibility. For instance, read what "Toaks" has to say about it here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=25274&forum=28&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0). He has both MorphOS and OS4, and what he says on that page and a few pages forward is that both systems are nice and good and all, but due to some different priorities and views, MorphOS has better backwards compatibility.
I'm not sure what Toaks' background is, but saying that The OS4 team didn't have backward compatibility as a priority is inaccurate. Toaks' post contains assumptions and opinion. The truth is that the 68k apps that crash on OS 4.1 mostly crash due to hidden bugs that OS4's parital memory protection catches. So, the crashing is actually a good thing, because it prevents apps from destabilizing the whole OS. Moreover, Amiga OS 4.1 has improved things here.
Or was it that the MorphOS desktop (Ambient) is light years ahead of any Workbench? Anyone that has used and followed Ambient's development knows how it started as an inferior desktop that everyone replaced with the original Amiga Workbench or Directory Opus Magellan the first thing they did. In MorphOS 2.0 I seriously doubt that anyone has replaced Ambient with Workbench, and this is for a reason!
I doubt that they could replace it with Amiga OS 4.1's workbench because it probably wouldn't run properly. Workbench is indeed a component in serious need of updating, but even that has been improved in Amiga OS 4.1. The major item that's missing is browsing directories without having to open new windows every time you open a drawer. Seeing as you haven't seen Amiga OS 4.1's Workbench in action, saying that Ambient is light-years ahead is on shaky ground.
Or was it the USB stack? Can you *really* claim that OS4's USB stack is better in *any* way? And the same with printing, where are the OS4 advantages?
Poseidon has isosynchronous transfers and USB 2.0, so it is better, but you make it sound like it leaves OS 4.1's stack in the dust. OS 4.1's stack has improved over OS 4.0.
I can't comment about printing because I've never used Turboprint (the 68k version can be used on OS4) on any system. However, OS4's printing system has had some internal changes which I can't comment upon until the next SDK is released.
Whether you like MUI 4.0 (and all the MUI apps out there) and appreciates a clean and consistent user interface experience when using them, as well as the MUI customization options for all the programs and the desktop itself, is a matter of taste. As I said.
You're implying that, because Reaction is the default GUI system on OS4, that it doesn't have a clean and consistent user interface experience. This is completely untrue. All apps on OS4 have a consistent look and feel regardless of whether it uses Reaction or MUI.
Sputnik is a *native* browser, the other one is a SDL recompile. A matter of taste. Sputnik is said to become available for OS4 as well, so there might not even be a problem there. But if you are going to degrade the Amiga to some kind of loader for recompiled X11 and SDL apps, then I think someone missed a point somewhere. Use Linux instead. Heck, with a simple VNC client you could even run Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office, how about that! :-P
Wrong, as Xeron said, OWB is not an SDL recompile. And this highlights my point regarding your post, you're trying to give a comparison when you don't really know enough about the other system to make a proper comparison.
OWB never was just a recompile, even when it used SDL. It's come a long way since then and it has a Reaction GUI. The latest Amiga OS 4.1 version uses the native Cairo API for rendering which is just as fast, but far more powerful than using the graphics library (which is what the older version did).
Hans
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I am using both MorphOS2.1 on Pegasos1 and AmigaOS4.1 on A1XE at the moment.
My personal opinion is that MorphOS is more advanced in almost all areas now. MorphOS is more mature and finished production, while OS4.1 needs developing on many areas still.
The most noticeable problem with OS4.1 is the lack of the features in Workbench and especially with the file handling. Roughly said WB is pretty much on same level than on 3.9, while MorphOS's Ambient has developed a LOT. Ambient has lots of features copied from Magellan2 and most users don't even need any external filemanager anymore. On OS4.1 you have to rely on old time two view filemanagers like Dopus4, which isn't comfortable at all for me anymore, as I've used more advanced filemanagers on classic Amigas over ten years.
I also find the OS4.1's oldskool prefs system pretty messy nowadays, when there is much more settings needed than 20 years ago. MorphOS has them more clearly organized and rearranged. OS4.1's prefs also don't feel consistent.. it feels like they've taken prefs from old programs from here and there and haven't adapted them with any plan.
MUI4 is a big advantage for MorphOS. I've always like MUI's way to have power for configuration on user. MUI4 has gotten a lot better than MUI3.x was. It also gives consistency to system and programs as MUI got as de facto standard on Amiga and for example most networking programs use it. Now you can tune whole system with it.
MorphOS's shell is much more advanced than OS4.1's. In OS4.1 you don't have even scrollbar or backbuffer etc, but in MorphOS you have those and even search options for buffer, multiple tabs on one shell, session saving, terminal emulations for ssh use etc etc.
Poseidon4 on MorphOS is also great USB stack. It's feature rich and supports USB2 speeds etc. On OS4.1 I've had some weirdness with USB. With several devices it seems to work bit unreliable. It also is very slow mounting big mass storage devices.. takes almost minute before there comes icon on workbench with my external HD. On MorphOS that's instant. OS4.1 also supports USB1.1 speeds only.
Filetype system is also great on MorphOS, you can define lots of actions for each file type (mimetype). What happens when you doubleclick file, drag&drop file, click it with RMB etc. You can have several different commands for each action. Filetypes are also arranged hierarchly and they inherit the options to lower levels. You can for example make certain actions happen for all pictures and then more exact options for each individual picture format. On OS4.1 you only can edit icon's default tool for each file type.
One nice touch in MorphOS is the "open" command, you can open files from shell with it. It looks operations from Ambient's mimetype settings and uses them to open files. For example "open test.avi" plays movie like it's configured in mimetypes, you don't have to remember what program or options would be needed for that file type.
Then there's lots of small details, like screen title bar modules in MorphOS. You can have things like date, cpu monitor, volume control, network indicators, info from music player etc in screen titlebar.. and the best thing is that it shows up in all screens! Not just on desktop screen. So if you have browser in separate screen, you can see and use all those things on it without need to open Ambient screen.
Amidock on OS4.1 is more versatile than Panels in MorphOS. Amidock can take all kinds of dockies like clock, cpu monitor, lenses etc, but personally I don't like dock kind of things. I'll rather have those kind of apps in MorphOS's screenbar module way.
Overall look and eyecandy is also better in MorphOS. There's cool themes for windows, about 30 different screenblankers (even 3D accelerated demoscene effects), nice background pictures and other gfx, colorful png mouse pointers etc. They really should think these things with OS4 too.. now there's ugly yellowish backgrounds with weird purple scrollbar backgrounds as default theme.
OS installation also tells about finishing touches. MorphOS installer is good looking with only some main points covered. After installation everything is ready in first boot. On OS4.1 there's lots of useless requesters telling what's going to happen next, but then at the end nobody tells if the installation was finished :) There also opens some external windows, which shouldn't be visible to users IMHO. Installation is divided in two phases and there's reboot needed in between. Also some default settings are bad. For example AHI settings had defaulted to mute, no channels, 0 frequency.
I also like MorphOS's IControl prefs. You can define hotkeys for all kind of actions. For example window handling options are good. You can define mouse/keyboard actions to bring windows to front, send them to back, center them, maximize them, activate prev/next etc. You also can do certain things for whole window families. For example bring to front all open windows of certain application. In OS4.1 they're handled with traditional commodities and by default there isn't many.. basically it's old ClickToFront commodity.
OS4 has nice soft reboot, which is fast. MorphOS takes little longer to boot because it does the open firmware stuff in each reboot.
3D support or WOS emulation in OS4 seems to be unfinished. All old Amiga's 3D/PPC games and demos I've tried had problems under OS4.1 while they worked on MorphOS.
Old OS friendly apps seem to work pretty fine under both systems. Some work better under OS4 and some under MorphOS. But OS4.1 feels to be more crashy when they don't work correctly. Worst thing is that filemanagers seem to suffer under OS4.1. But some wordprocessing etc big apps work fine under 4.1, some even better than on MorphOS.
I must say I am bit disappointed on 4.1... especially after getting MorphOS in such fine condition with 2.x releases. And when it's selling as completely new product and not an update to 4.0. But if there wouldn't be MorphOS I surely would be tinkering with OS4 more :) Although filemanagement area should be much more advanced to be able have it as my main platform... I really hope it will get better and more mature product, but there is work to do still.
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MOS
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What's so bad about SDL anyway?
SDL is a standardised API for accessing graphics, sound and other hardware across many different platforms. It has nothing to do with X11 unless you're talking about it running on Linux.
I'd much rather program for SDL than Picasso96/Cybergraphx and AHI.
You've got to be a bit realistic here, the Amiga market is miniscule compared to the huge amount of platforms SDL works on. SDL opens up ports which we probably never see otherwise.
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Seems like there is WarpOS-emulation for SAM now too.
http://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2208&forum=3 (http://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2208&forum=3)
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Hans_ wrote:
@takemehomegrandma
When taken together your claims form an inaccurate picture.
No they don't, and I was going to write a reply to that, but then I saw that pVC already had! ;-)
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takemehomegrandma wrote:
Hans_ wrote:
@takemehomegrandma
When taken together your claims form an inaccurate picture.
No they don't, and I was going to write a reply to that, but then I saw that pVC already had! ;-)
Actually, pVC gave his impressions on both systems, not a reply to me. More importantly pVC has actually used both systems so he knows what he's talking about, you don't (with regard to Amiga OS 4.1 that is).
Hans
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@Hans
Or was it that the MorphOS desktop (Ambient) is light years ahead of any Workbench? Anyone that has used and followed Ambient's development knows how it started as an inferior desktop that everyone replaced with the original Amiga Workbench or Directory Opus Magellan the first thing they did. In MorphOS 2.0 I seriously doubt that anyone has replaced Ambient with Workbench, and this is for a reason!
I doubt that they could replace it with Amiga OS 4.1's workbench because it probably wouldn't run properly.
I dont think he meant OS 4.0/4.1 Workbench but WB from OS 3.9. First versions of Ambient (and later also...) were so limited in features that some users found it better replace it by Workbench from OS 3.9.
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@pVC
You seem to have had some problems with OS 4.1 that I haven't had. For example, I've used USB drives and they pop up instantly for me. With the exception of my Force 3D pro having the z and throttle axes swapped, I haven't experienced any USB issues. I know that others have though, but they seem to be related to specific products.
MorphOS's shell is much more advanced than OS4.1's. In OS4.1 you don't have even scrollbar or backbuffer etc, but in MorphOS you have those and even search options for buffer, multiple tabs on one shell, session saving, terminal emulations for ssh use etc etc.
It's coming for OS 4.x, and this is one of the features that I really want. I've used vinced in the past, but it's not that great.
Overall look and eyecandy is also better in MorphOS. There's cool themes for windows, about 30 different screenblankers (even 3D accelerated demoscene effects), nice background pictures and other gfx, colorful png mouse pointers etc. They really should think these things with OS4 too.. now there's ugly yellowish backgrounds with weird purple scrollbar backgrounds as default theme.
What ugly yellowish background? That's not the OS 4.1 default theme. I'm currently using png mouse pointers on OS 4.1. Oh, and have you tried out the 3D accelerated blankers on OS4?
OS installation also tells about finishing touches. MorphOS installer is good looking with only some main points covered. After installation everything is ready in first boot. On OS4.1 there's lots of useless requesters telling what's going to happen next, but then at the end nobody tells if the installation was finished :) There also opens some external windows, which shouldn't be visible to users IMHO. Installation is divided in two phases and there's reboot needed in between. Also some default settings are bad. For example AHI settings had defaulted to mute, no channels, 0 frequency.
I never noticed it opening additional windows that shouldn't be visible. And my default AHI settings worked just fine. after installation.
I also like MorphOS's IControl prefs. You can define hotkeys for all kind of actions. For example window handling options are good. You can define mouse/keyboard actions to bring windows to front, send them to back, center them, maximize them, activate prev/next etc. You also can do certain things for whole window families. For example bring to front all open windows of certain application. In OS4.1 they're handled with traditional commodities and by default there isn't many.. basically it's old ClickToFront commodity.
3D support or WOS emulation in OS4 seems to be unfinished. All old Amiga's 3D/PPC games and demos I've tried had problems under OS4.1 while they worked on MorphOS.
Which games? I've run Wipeout no problem; I wasn't too interested in other old games. I'm still working on MiniGL (the OS 4.1 version was a beta) so if you have any issues with 3D (not for old 68k/WarpOS games though), please let me know.
Hans
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itix wrote:
@Hans
Or was it that the MorphOS desktop (Ambient) is light years ahead of any Workbench? Anyone that has used and followed Ambient's development knows how it started as an inferior desktop that everyone replaced with the original Amiga Workbench or Directory Opus Magellan the first thing they did. In MorphOS 2.0 I seriously doubt that anyone has replaced Ambient with Workbench, and this is for a reason!
I doubt that they could replace it with Amiga OS 4.1's workbench because it probably wouldn't run properly.
I dont think he meant OS 4.0/4.1 Workbench but WB from OS 3.9. First versions of Ambient (and later also...) were so limited in features that some users found it better replace it by Workbench from OS 3.9.
Well, if we're comparing MOS 2.1 with AOS 4.1, then comparing Ambient with AOS 3.9's Workbench doesn't make sense. Workbench has been improved, although the basic way of accessing files hasn't changed.
Hans
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pVC wrote:
I also find the OS4.1's oldskool prefs system pretty messy nowadays, when there is much more settings needed than 20 years ago. MorphOS has them more clearly organized and rearranged. OS4.1's prefs also don't feel consistent.. it feels like they've taken prefs from old programs from here and there and haven't adapted them with any plan.
I actually prefer the OS 4.1 prefs system over a monolithic preferences editor.
It also gives consistency to system and programs as MUI got as de facto standard on Amiga and for example most networking programs use it. Now you can tune whole system with it.
What exactly do you mean with consistency to the system and programs? If you mean that there's only one set of themes to edit, then I agree; if you're talking about the look and feel, Reaction and MUI have been setup to give the same look and feel.
Hans
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I never used morphos or amigaos4.x, but i reading about it, my vote is for morphos, i see it like the amigaos should be.
The post of pVC says everything and from a user with both systems.
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@Hans
Well, if we're comparing MOS 2.1 with AOS 4.1, then comparing Ambient with AOS 3.9's Workbench doesn't make sense. Workbench has been improved, although the basic way of accessing files hasn't changed.
Well... tmhgm was basicly pointing out how much Ambient has progressed in the last years. I have seen screenshots from new WB 4.1 listers but I doubt it still comes even close. Ambient is simply too far ahead right now.
But then I am an Ambient developer (albeit less these days) and also member of the MorphOS development team so it is not maybe fair to say so :-)
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Hans_ wrote:
I actually prefer the OS 4.1 prefs system over a monolithic preferences editor.
What exactly do you mean by "monolithic prefserences editor"?
There are seperate files for all preferences in Morphos:prefs/mprefs/ and IIRC there's still a way to launch them seperately - but for what benefit?
In MorphOS you get a unified window where you specify which preference you like to edit. You may chose to have this OS X like design or in a rather MUI typical lister view (which I prefer).
Another thing for chosing either AOS4 or MorphOS to consider is, to look for ppl in your region which system they have.
In my area back in 2002 I was the 1st (or was I 2nd? doesn't matter anyway) to have a Pegasos and a while after a small bunch of ppl followed that route. On major reason was to focus knowledge on *one* system.
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takemehomegrandma wrote:
No they don't, and I was going to write a reply to that, but then I saw that pVC already had! ;-)
Actually, a few of your claims are wildly inaccurate, as has been pointed out, but if you want to still believe that, for example, OWB is still a "simple SDL recompile" because it makes you feel all warm and snuggly about how superior MorphOS is, rather than actually researching your arguments, thats up to you. I have a lot more respect for pVC's opinions than yours.
Mind you, up until a couple of weeks ago, I also had a Pegasos alongside my AmigaOne, and I didn't form the same opinions as him, so a lot of it is subjective.
For example, pVC claimed that OS4's installer had lots of "useless requesters", where I thought it was really good that it told you exactly what the installer was doing, and thought it was really helpful for new users. Also, I had no problem determining when the installer had finished, but maybe it should have had a final "Congratulations! You're all done!" message if pVC found it unclear, but really, I think OS4's installation procedure is excellent.
Also, pVC said he found MorphOS's "eye candy" to be nicer, whereas I found the exact opposite. I hated every single one of the themes that came with MorphOS. Usually they had too many high contrast gradients which made them look really ugly. In the end I settled for a converted OS4 skin on my MorphOS box.
The other thing I disagreed with was where pVC claimed that OS4's prefs were inconsistent; all OS4 prefs modules are compiled against a common preferences framework. Where any two prefs have the same functionality, it will be in the exact same place. They also all use the same GUI toolkit. Where they differ, its because they are showing preferences for different things. The only prefs editor I can think of that is really different is GUI prefs, where it uses a lister instead of tabs, but really, it has so many options that would be unwieldy. But the GUI prefs is really for "pro" users, most people just use pre-defined skins.
Edit: I just clicked through all the prefs editors, and the vast majority are very consistent, I thought. Notable exceptions were GUI (simply because of the amount of options), AHI (because it is not actually an OS4 specific component), UBoot, and to a lesser degree Internet. On the whole I stand by my statement. And besides, who spends all their time in prefs editors?
One thing you have to remember is that MorphOS had a big head start in development time to OS4, and there was a time when OS4 was quite far behind, and now it is only a bit behind in some areas. In fact, in some cases MorphOS has caught up to OS4 (64bit filesystems, TCP/IP etc).
The thing is, in a lot of areas where OS4 used to be behind, it has caught up, and development hasn't slowed a bit. It is unusual if there arent updates to the beta version every single day. IMHO, on the areas where OS4 still is behind, it won't be long before it catches up. A lot of the weak points pointed out in this thread are being worked on.
Another thing about MorphOS that I found was that it seemed pretty much dead to me. The forums on morphzone are very quiet, and there never seemed to be all that much software written for MorphOS, outside of the occasional AmigaZeux release and a couple of other devs. Whereas there is often new or updated software to download for OS4, and the OS4 web forums are much livelier places.
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kickstart wrote:
The post of pVC says everything and from a user with both systems.
pVC isn't the only person posting with direct experience of both systems.
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Xeron,
about new or updated software on OS4, if we exclude half-assed sdl ports, x11 recompiles and dumbo gui frontends for a few programs, does the word "often" still apply? :)
And don't get me wrong, on morphos too, there are also often some sdl game ports, which is not wrong, but doesn't prove anything, since it's usually a 5minutes-1hour job.
It's also funny you say morphos had a big head start... Let me remind you that unlike OS4, almost everything had to be rewritten or largely fixed/adapted (aros stuff).
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Yes, often still applies. I'm talking about updates as well as new apps, of software written for Amiga, available natively on AmigaOS4, and where OS4 is a maintained target by the app author(s), as well as OS4 specific apps.
Besides, not all ports are half assed, some of them actually have considerable Amiga-specific changes, such as Steven Solie's SSH port, OWB (which is as much an Amiga app as Sputnik is a MorphOS app now), VICE, Transmission, NetSurf, and many others.
It seems to be a delusion amoung OS4-bashers that all OS4 has is SDL ports or X11 apps, which is simply not true.
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If Aminet stats are to be trusted, both platforms are pretty much on par. And most of the software uploaded is useless crap anyway :-)
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OK, well, i could be wrong, but when i had both, it felt like there was a lot more updates and software to download for OS4 than there was for morphos, SDL games aside.
Mind you, I was only aware of and checking Aminet for MOS, and I was using OS4Depot & Aminet for OS4, and its perfectly conceivable that for the period I had my Peg set up and in use, MOS was especially quiet.
I just got the feeling that morphzone was very quiet and that morphos' software "scene" seemed quieter. Another mitigating factor could have been that most of my Peg-usage time was well before the release of MOS2, and maybe the release has warmed things up a bit. (I did try MOS2 briefly before selling the Peg).
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@xeron
I think that MorphOS should improve its default MUI colours as it seems that someone thought "look! I can use gradients! let's use gradients of colours that hurt eyes everywhere". OS4 colours are IMHO more consistent.
But I don't think you are right about MOS having less apps than OS4.
For example, MOS2.x includes a proper SSH console as standard and xad support is included in Ambient as default.
MOS2 has Sputnik, and I think it's slightly better than using both NetSurf and OWB.
VICE is native for every amiga-like system. OS4 and MOS coders worked together (AmiDog ported it to OS4 and Piru and others added nice features like Overlay and fixed small bugs).
Transmission... well, BeeHive may not be perfect but it works.
Each platform has programs for the same (OS4 has the good looking Epistula and MorphOS has the much more stable PolyGlot).
MorphOS even had commercial games released like Robin Hood.
Well, the sad reality is that there are not many releases for next gen amigaoses. IMHO it's better to code in a portable way, support as many Amiga-like systems you can and forget stupid wars. Each one uses what one likes more and that's all.
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You seem to have had some problems with OS 4.1 that I haven't had. For example, I've used USB drives and they pop up instantly for me. With the exception of my Force 3D pro having the z and throttle axes swapped, I haven't experienced any USB issues. I know that others have though, but they seem to be related to specific products.
With very limited testing I could guess it depends about the size of mass storage device too. 2GB stick doesn't show up instantly, but lot faster than 250GB drive. When I plug that 250GB drive in, first it doesn't seem to happen anything. With my very first try I had time to start looking mounter program, because I thought it doesn't automount. Then there appears uninitialized icon on desktop and finally it changes to correct drive icon and I can use the drive. Also I had problem to get memory stick to work when having several devices plugged... or maybe I just didn't have patience to wait enough.
What ugly yellowish background? That's not the OS 4.1 default theme. I'm currently using png mouse pointers on OS 4.1. Oh, and have you tried out the 3D accelerated blankers on OS4?
The default 4.1 theme has yellowish backgrounds everywhere, like in all prefs programs. Or maybe it's just my cheap TFT monitors, but it really shows up like light yellow... reminds me yellowed Amigas or old paper :) Also the rest of the color choises don't work that good together in my opinion, like the red group titles.
I was thinking that this comparison is made with out-of-the-box systems. Or is there PNG pointers or 3D blankers in 4.1 cd somewhere? I haven't noticed... it would go too wide if we take all 3rd party stuff in count here too. BTW. PNG-icons don't seem to work by default on OS4.1 either. It gave me problems at first when some programs had png-icon on their dir and without 3rd party extension the dir wasn't accessible from Workbench.
I never noticed it opening additional windows that shouldn't be visible. And my default AHI settings worked just fine. after installation.
Installer opened Dialer shell window at some point of network configuration. It showed unnecessary information and the window wasn't closed by installer ever. That gave me uncertain feeling if the installation was finished at the end, because it wasn't closed or there wasn't any information if everything was completed.
AHI had all settings zeroed when it opened its config window during the installation. I noticed it, but forgot to change everything and that's why I didn't had any sound after installation. More inexperienced user could be in trouble because of that. I heard some others have had same problem too.
Which games? I've run Wipeout no problem; I wasn't too interested in other old games. I'm still working on MiniGL (the OS 4.1 version was a beta) so if you have any issues with 3D (not for old 68k/WarpOS games though), please let me know.
As I said, with old Amiga games/demos. I'm interested backwards compatibility and that's why I haven't tried new OS4 native 3D stuff that much. Almost all games started, but had some graphical problems. Wipeout works best, but not perfectly. Transparencies doesn't seem to work in it. For example on screen texts and graphics have boxed background when it should be transparent. Payback has all gfx broken. Shogo has working 2D gfx, but 3D gfx only gives some weird red lines. Encore's demos ran, but 3D gfx was misplaced or missing in many parts. I don't remember now all things I've tried, but I could do better report some other day with better time.
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@Crumb
BeeHive? Eeek, quickly use MLDonkey instead, which pretty much rules :)
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What exactly do you mean with consistency to the system and programs? If you mean that there's only one set of themes to edit, then I agree; if you're talking about the look and feel, Reaction and MUI have been setup to give the same look and feel.
I mean that there isn't too many GUI toolkits in use. It's nice that system and programs use same ways for their configurations and operation. Even for global settings. As there is much more old programs using MUI than Reaction, it gives more consistency IMHO.
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I have seen screenshots from new WB 4.1 listers but I doubt it still comes even close. Ambient is simply too far ahead right now.
Yep, WB4.1 listers don't have Ambient kind of functionality at all in current state.
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pVC wrote:
With very limited testing I could guess it depends about the size of mass storage device too. 2GB stick doesn't show up instantly, but lot faster than 250GB drive. When I plug that 250GB drive in, first it doesn't seem to happen anything. With my very first try I had time to start looking mounter program, because I thought it doesn't automount. Then there appears uninitialized icon on desktop and finally it changes to correct drive icon and I can use the drive. Also I had problem to get memory stick to work when having several devices plugged... or maybe I just didn't have patience to wait enough.
Part of the problem could be lack of USB 2.0 support, although the delay that you talk about sounds too long to be just about slow transfer rates (12 Mb/s or whatever USB 1's limit is, should still be able to transfer 1 MiB/s).
The default 4.1 theme has yellowish backgrounds everywhere, like in all prefs programs. Or maybe it's just my cheap TFT monitors, but it really shows up like light yellow... reminds me yellowed Amigas or old paper :) Also the rest of the color choises don't work that good together in my opinion, like the red group titles.
The main background is blue with a boing-ball, etc. To be honest, I can't remember what the window backgrounds were because I changed that to my personal preference right away. I just don't remember the default being yellowish at all, especially not in the prefs programs.
I was thinking that this comparison is made with out-of-the-box systems. Or is there PNG pointers or 3D blankers in 4.1 cd somewhere? I haven't noticed... it would go too wide if we take all 3rd party stuff in count here too. BTW. PNG-icons don't seem to work by default on OS4.1 either. It gave me problems at first when some programs had png-icon on their dir and without 3rd party extension the dir wasn't accessible from Workbench.
Fair enough. It would be ridiculously easy to collect the blankers and pointers and put them on the CD though.
I never noticed it opening additional windows that shouldn't be visible. And my default AHI settings worked just fine. after installation.
Installer opened Dialer shell window at some point of network configuration. It showed unnecessary information and the window wasn't closed by installer ever. That gave me uncertain feeling if the installation was finished at the end, because it wasn't closed or there wasn't any information if everything was completed.
Well that explains why I didn't see that, I don't use dial-up any more.
AHI had all settings zeroed when it opened its config window during the installation. I noticed it, but forgot to change everything and that's why I didn't had any sound after installation. More inexperienced user could be in trouble because of that. I heard some others have had same problem too.
Out of curiosity, which sound card are you using? My SBLive's default values were fine.
Which games? I've run Wipeout no problem; I wasn't too interested in other old games. I'm still working on MiniGL (the OS 4.1 version was a beta) so if you have any issues with 3D (not for old 68k/WarpOS games though), please let me know.
As I said, with old Amiga games/demos. I'm interested backwards compatibility and that's why I haven't tried new OS4 native 3D stuff that much. Almost all games started, but had some graphical problems. Wipeout works best, but not perfectly. Transparencies doesn't seem to work in it. For example on screen texts and graphics have boxed background when it should be transparent.[/quote]
What graphics card do you have? Transparency works fine in Wipeout on my card (Radeon 9000 pro).
Hans
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xeron wrote:
Actually, a few of your claims are wildly inaccurate, as has been pointed out, but if you want to still believe that, for example, OWB is still a "simple SDL recompile" because it makes you feel all warm and snuggly about how superior MorphOS is, rather than actually researching your arguments, thats up to you.
About that browser situation. I like Sputnik being MUI-based, but OWB seems to render pages better. For example the google maps. I haven't tested either properly as they both are still unfinished. Still using Ibrowse as my main browser. But OWB surely is nice addon to Amiga scene nevertheless.
The other thing I disagreed with was where pVC claimed that OS4's prefs were inconsistent; all OS4 prefs modules are compiled against a common preferences framework. Where any two prefs have the same functionality, it will be in the exact same place. They also all use the same GUI toolkit. Where they differ, its because they are showing preferences for different things. The only prefs editor I can think of that is really different is GUI prefs, where it uses a lister instead of tabs, but really, it has so many options that would be unwieldy. But the GUI prefs is really for "pro" users, most people just use pre-defined skins.
I have difficulties to find correct prefs programs for wanted setting, but that's same on OS3.9 too. But now there's even more settings. I think that for example printer prefs could have been combined to one place. There's also network settings in two places (in prefs drawer and in sys). GUI prefs is messy and looks pretty much taken from VisualPrefs style instead of making it OS4 style. Then there's Picasso96Mode, which differs completely from everything else. Some prefs have only couple of choises while others might have massive amount of stuff.
And then all prefs programs are in same dir without any order. You have to look through lots of separate prefs names when you're looking for user interface settings for example. In MorphOS they're all in their own categories. It's lot easier when you're looking for certain type of settings.
One thing you have to remember is that MorphOS had a big head start in development time to OS4, and there was a time when OS4 was quite far behind, and now it is only a bit behind in some areas. In fact, in some cases MorphOS has caught up to OS4 (64bit filesystems, TCP/IP etc).
The thing is, in a lot of areas where OS4 used to be behind, it has caught up, and development hasn't slowed a bit. It is unusual if there arent updates to the beta version every single day. IMHO, on the areas where OS4 still is behind, it won't be long before it catches up. A lot of the weak points pointed out in this thread are being worked on.
I thought the question was to compare MorphOS2 to OS4.1 in the current state from the regular user's point of view :) And in that context OS4.1 seems to be far behind in many important areas from user point of view again. MorphOS is also developing rapidly. There's constant development (even betas available (newer than in 2.1)) with MUI4 and Ambient. MorphOS 2.2 is coming soon (some components of it are also obtainable if needed) etc. I would be surprised if there would be major change in Workbench vs. Ambient functionality in near future for example, but feel free to prove my thoughts wrong :)
Another thing about MorphOS that I found was that it seemed pretty much dead to me. The forums on morphzone are very quiet, and there never seemed to be all that much software written for MorphOS, outside of the occasional AmigaZeux release and a couple of other devs. Whereas there is often new or updated software to download for OS4, and the OS4 web forums are much livelier places.
I guess that also depends where your focus is. Ok, MorphZone could be more active, but also there isn't that much useless hype and speculation about MorphOS than on OS4. It's more facts and real issues. Also OS4 forums have classic Amiga talks etc, which are missing on MorphOS sites.
And for programs, I think there's lots of nice releases regularly. Nice game ports, one of the latest is Homeworld for example. One pick could also be MPlayer, which just got MUI-GUI module and I'd say it's the best movie player around. On MorphOS version everything works after you unpack the archive. Even subtitles work fine ootb, which have been problem even on Win/Linux in my experience. ShowGirls is absolutely great picture viewer/editor. Never seen such great program on any platform.. and many more, but I'm out of time for today now :)
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Hans_ wrote:
pVC wrote:
With very limited testing I could guess it depends about the size of mass storage device too. 2GB stick doesn't show up instantly, but lot faster than 250GB drive. When I plug that 250GB drive in, first it doesn't seem to happen anything. With my very first try I had time to start looking mounter program, because I thought it doesn't automount. Then there appears uninitialized icon on desktop and finally it changes to correct drive icon and I can use the drive. Also I had problem to get memory stick to work when having several devices plugged... or maybe I just didn't have patience to wait enough.
Part of the problem could be lack of USB 2.0 support, although the delay that you talk about sounds too long to be just about slow transfer rates (12 Mb/s or whatever USB 1's limit is, should still be able to transfer 1 MiB/s).
I don't know. It's instant on Pegasos when trying with USB1.1 controller too.
The main background is blue with a boing-ball, etc. To be honest, I can't remember what the window backgrounds were because I changed that to my personal preference right away. I just don't remember the default being yellowish at all, especially not in the prefs programs.
Main background is fine with boingball, but the window backgrounds.
Fair enough. It would be ridiculously easy to collect the blankers and pointers and put them on the CD though.
The blankers itself isn't the issue, but these things in complete and what feeling and impression they give to user who has bought or is going to buy the product. It doesn't give very modern look if the only blankers are only some 80's line blankers.
Well that explains why I didn't see that, I don't use dial-up any more.
I don't either. I used static ethernet addresses. It outputted couple of lines eth3com things.
Out of curiosity, which sound card are you using? My SBLive's default values were fine.
SBLive (CT4830).
What graphics card do you have? Transparency works fine in Wipeout on my card (Radeon 9000 pro).
I've tested it with 8500LE and 9250.
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@amiga4ever
I tried my best to present an unbiased opinion in my earlier post.
Here is some info about the system which I own and use every day ...
AmigaOS 4.1 :banana:
My system is a MicroA1-C. After a few glitches at the beginning, my AmigaOS 4.1 system is very stable now. I use it daily for surfing the web, listening to music, and general hobby stuff. Due to video RAM limitations on the MicroA1, I am not using all the bells and whistles.
I use a mixture of PPC and 68K applications. All the following programs work fine. I launch all of them directly from my OS 4.1 Workbench (except for KingCON, AWNPipe and SMTPpost). I have not tried all the features of every program ...
OWB 2.13 (Origyn Web Browser)
AwebPPC (aka AWeb APL Lite 3.5.09)
IBrowse 2.4
Final Writer 97
NotePad
MultiView
UnArc
AmiPDF
WarpView (an image wiewer which uses Warp3D to display the images)
DvPlayer (Digital Video Player for AmigaOS)
AmigaAMP
PlayCD
AmiDVD
MakeCD
Cloanto Personal Paint (PPaint)
TVPaint
Real3D
WookieChat
SimpleMail
YAM
MystDemo program (have not tried the real game)
LTris
Soliton (a very nice MUI based Solitaire card game)
E-UAE
KingCON
MicroRexx
AWNPipe
SMTPpost from INetUtils
AmiPOP
Both of my USB flash sticks and my camera work fine with OS4.1 ...
Lexar JumpDrive 512MB formatted for FastFileSystem with long file names
Kingston DataTraveler 512MB formatted for FAT
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H2 camera
I also have a single Memorex High Speed CD-RW disc which mounts as an OS4 cdrw: device, which I can use as a read write device similar to a very large floppy disk.
I use AmiDVD for backups, writing to CD-RW discs or CD-R discs.
E-UAE allows me to run some very old programs which require the classic chipset. I also use E-UAE to install programs which require the old installer program from AmigaOS 3.x.
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redfox
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@amiga4ever
I have never seen or used MorphOS 2, but I like the screenshots available on the net.
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redfox
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From my point of view pVC is truly right.
I have Os4.0 and Mos2.0 (unregistred) and MorphOs is better in any points over Os4.0. (I don't know about Os4.1)
Many 68k programs/games don't work on Os4, and many which start fine, after some time freezes with GR and DSI error.
Many time after that only reset help.
On MOS,68k program will run and do work, or will simply crush whole system on start.
I make on both systems dir "68K" in which I put only STABLE 68k programs, and many times I must remove some programs on Os4 because DSI error pop on the screen after using some options. Mos 68k programs work perfectily or don't work at all.
I have also 9 classic amigas and I still prefer Os3.9 over Mos and Os4. I like amiga's paint/animation/music software but Mos and Os4 sadly don't have anything which I can use to create something.
My last Amiga hope is only Natami :bow: , because I sick of to many Amiga "compatibile" systems with limited software support.
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TNovosel wrote:
I have Os4.0 and Mos2.0 (unregistred) and MorphOs is better in any points over Os4.0. (I don't know about Os4.1)
So you're not even using MorphOS 2.1? In that case, you're comparing two older versions of the OSes, which is not useful. Amiga OS 4.1, in particular, is a big improvement over version 4.0. No idea what difference MorphOS 2.1 makes.
Hans
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@Hans
MorphOs 2.1 fixes only some bugs in Mos2.0, nothing more.
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TNovosel wrote:
@Hans
MorphOs 2.1 fixes only some bugs in Mos2.0, nothing more.
Well, Amiga OS 4.1 is significantly better than Amiga OS 4.0.
Hans
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Hans_ wrote:
Well, Amiga OS 4.1 is significantly better than Amiga OS 4.0.
Hans
I believe you, many other Os4.1 users say that also.
It is 68k compatibility also better?
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TNovosel wrote:
Hans_ wrote:
Well, Amiga OS 4.1 is significantly better than Amiga OS 4.0.
Hans
I believe you, many other Os4.1 users say that also.
It is 68k compatibility also better?
I've been told that it is, but I've never really tested it personally. Most of my software is OS4 native.
Hans
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Do you guys think there is a website for Lamborghini- and Ferrariowners to debate which carbrand is better? :-)
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@ Hans_
What I thought to be the latest version of MPlayer on OS4 (from November of last year) is a crashy mess. Is there a newer version kicking around anywhere?
I like DVPlayer (I'm a registered user), but it just doesn't handle everything. That's why I like having both around.
On a partially-related note, could you talk a bit more about the new features in 4.1? It seems like not many details beyond the press release and "It's better" have made it out. Not a huge deal, as I will get 4.1 eventually, but in the meantime I'm just curious.
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Matt_H wrote:
@ Hans_
What I thought to be the latest version of MPlayer on OS4 (from November of last year) is a crashy mess. Is there a newer version kicking around anywhere?
Not that I know of, but then, I haven't used MPlayer in a while.
On a partially-related note, could you talk a bit more about the new features in 4.1? It seems like not many details beyond the press release and "It's better" have made it out. Not a huge deal, as I will get 4.1 eventually, but in the meantime I'm just curious.
I have a brief review here (http://hdrlab.org.nz/amiga-os-4-1-is-here-a-brief-review/). It was written about a week or so after installing OS 4.1 so it's a bit brief.
Visible improvements:
- It's more stable than OS 4.0
- Its composition engine works well and is integrated nicely without any visible slowdown
- The new lister mode makes scanning through files easier, particularly with rescaled icons indicating what the files are
- MiniGL 2.0 beta allows more OpenGL software to run (see the OS 4.1 only OpenGL games on os4depot)
- PTP cameras are supported (I don't have one of those personally, but some people are very happy about this one)
- AmigaInput is back so joystick support is available (the prefs/calibration program has everything that you'd expect)
- That's all I can remember right now (I don't have my machine with me)
The invisible improvements:
- Changes to DOS
- Native Cairo port (although it's noticeable in that the latest version of OWB requires it)
- Intelligent memory pager (stays out of your way until you need it, you won't really notice that it's there)
- Other stuff I haven't noticed yet or forgot about
A lot of the changes are internal, and really of benefit to developers. I'm hoping that the new SDK comes out soon so that more developers can take advantage of the new features.
You can read a more detailed review on arstechnica (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amigaos41-ars.ars/2).
Hans
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Matt_H wrote:
What I thought to be the latest version of MPlayer on OS4 (from November of last year) is a crashy mess. Is there a newer version kicking around anywhere?
I like DVPlayer (I'm a registered user), but it just doesn't handle everything. That's why I like having both around.
I haven't found later version of MPlayer either. And that version sucks pretty much. OSD texts and subtitles are flashy and aspect ratio is lost in full screen etc.
I also haven't registered DVPlayer, so it doesn't play much here. How does it handle xvids etc? What it haven't handled on you?
On a partially-related note, could you talk a bit more about the new features in 4.1? It seems like not many details beyond the press release and "It's better" have made it out. Not a huge deal, as I will get 4.1 eventually, but in the meantime I'm just curious.
Yeah, I'm missing detailed information on that too. MorphOS has pretty comprehensive pages about those things (www.morphos-team.net).
BTW. here are screenshots of installing both systems and some after install pics too: for AmigaOS4.1 (http://jpv.wmhost.com/jpv_wb/OS4/) and for MorphOS2.0 (http://jpv.wmhost.com/jpv_wb/MorphOS2/)
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hooligan wrote:
Do you guys think there is a website for Lamborghini- and Ferrariowners to debate which carbrand is better? :-)
Yes. I surely would like to do some comparison before going to buy expensive car. And I don't think those Lamborghini and Ferrari owners would be any less passionate about their cars than we are with out operating systems :) You should look some dog or diet forums for real fanaticism, for example ;)
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Where is the default horible yellow theme in AOS4.1 then ?
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JJ wrote:
Where is the default horible yellow theme in AOS4.1 then ?
In any prefs window there? Or if you say that it isn't yellowish, then I have to blame my monitor :) Anyway it doesn't look good here IMHO. And especially with combination of those red and purple things.
Ok, I checked RGB values of those backgrounds, because it came this big question :) And it really seems to be bit leaning to yellow side. Only a bit, but maybe my monitor shows it too clearly. In any case I would like more some other color scheme.
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@ PVC
Looking it more closley I actually agree with you, and the prefs are basically the same as os3.9 , and they dont look I do agreee with you.
And just for balance I have never used either OS. I never could get morphos 1.4 to run on my A1200
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pVC wrote:
JJ wrote:
Where is the default horible yellow theme in AOS4.1 then ?
In any prefs window there? Or if you say that it isn't yellowish, then I have to blame my monitor :) Anyway it doesn't look good here IMHO. And especially with combination of those red and purple things.
Ok, I checked RGB values of those backgrounds, because it came this big question :) And it really seems to be bit leaning to yellow side. Only a bit, but maybe my monitor shows it too clearly. In any case I would like more some other color scheme.
It really has to be your monitor if your prefs editors are yellowish too. It's not yellowish on my system. The problem with colour schemes is that no default scheme is going to satisfy everyone.
Hans
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@Piru
Ok, you did it. :-x
I hope your talks about future MOS release for MacMini are not pure vapor because I think I just became a owner of 1.4Ghz MacMini for 205€.
(so I will dress in RED and BLUE in the future ?) :crazy:
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Somewhat OT, but a writeup of OS4.1 vs WotLK (http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/159970.shtml) has been written.
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@jorkany
Wow, a link to a flammatory post. Maybe that's even within the posting guidelines of A.org?
Great to see that people can get so upset about a product they dislike that spend so much time writing about it. I'm not a fan of OS4 myself but reading your very insightful post Moobunny, wow, that's like art. No really, wow, congratulations. You must be really proud! Can I start a bounty so we can support such creative writing? Please give us your Pay Pal information!
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Well it was a rather silly post comparing apples to oranges but it did contain a useful number of 1300 to 2000 OS4 users. Would you say there are a similar number of Morphos users?
Given that we are dealing with a few thousand users wouldn't it make sense to combine forces and develop for both? Even then it would be hard for a developer to actually earn a living. But tearing each other apart is suicidal...
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about 450 registred mos 2.0 users
about 2000 mos users (145 and 2.x)
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rzookol wrote:
about 2000 mos users (145 and 2.x)
Where are they lurking?
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hooligan wrote:
rzookol wrote:
about 2000 mos users (145 and 2.x)
Where are they lurking?
Enjoying their systems without useless babble? :)
For example, I have several Pegasos owning friends here in the same city, but I'm the only one being loud at the net :)