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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: maxplunder on August 31, 2003, 12:55:30 AM
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I have an Amiga 2000HD with a A2091 controller. Rom ver1.3 and WB 1.3.3 34.34. The current HD is Quantum LPS 52S (SCSI) and I want to add a Seagate ST12400N (SCSI). I've got the Quantum set as ID 5 and the Seagate ID6 and terminating at the seagate. Every time I start the machine it boots fine. I go into HDToolbox from the 2091 disk, both HD's are found. It tells me I need to save the changes. (more than one HD found I guess??) when I reboot It wants me to insert a volume called Libs even before it shows the CLI.
Please Help
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@maxplunder
Wich ID has the controller?
Try to change your Seagate ID6 to another IDnumber.
Ciao
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what do yo mean?
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Try changing the Seagate's address to 4. I believe that the 2091 scans from the higher address down. This way it will see the bootable Quantum first. One other thing to be aware of... I've seen some strange stuff with the 2091 and some drives, mainly the newer ones.. (newer compared to the 2091! ) They appear to partition & format correctly, but disappear on a reboot... I suspect this is due to the old firmware on the 2091. Too bad... cuz I've got a couple of Seagates that do exactly that...
(I just looked - they are ST12400N's!)
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to JimS
Is there anyway to get the ST12400N to work on here??
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I would see if the newer drive will work by itself.
Since that LPS52S is almost 14 years old (my first
52 didnt last a year, but they replaced it) I would
start migrating off of it anyway.
Mike
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maxplunder wrote:
Is there anyway to get the ST12400N to work on here??
That I couldn't say for sure... I understand there is a firmware upgrade to the 2091 card.... Rev 7.0. There is also an upgrade to the Western Digital SCSI chip on the 2091 card. Either of these might work... but I don't know for sure. I found a 1 gig drive that worked, so I just gave up on the ST12400Ns.
It's also possible that a different controller card would work. Maybe someone using those drives will jump in and say what controller they are using.
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@maxplunder
Begin to change the Seagate ID to 4 as JimS said.
Where the boot partition is installed?
On the Seagate?
Ciao
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Framiga wrote:
@maxplunder
Begin to change the Seagate ID to 4 as JimS said.
Where the boot partition is installed?
On the Seagate?
Ciao
The Quantum is bootable. I changed the Seagate ID to 4 and got the Insert Workbench Disk Screen when I rebooted.
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@maxplunder
so put the Seagate to 5 and the old one to 4. (or 6)
Ciao
-edit- remember that with Amiga SCSI controllers, the rule is that . . .there aren't rules :-)
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I changed the ID back to 6 and now the seagate is not showing up in the toolbox at all, changed it back to 4 and still not showing up. Its still booting off of the quantum.
the controller is at ID 0 btw
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Try all the combinations (exept ID0).
Even try to change phisically the HD position on the chain.
Try, try and then try again.
Ciao
-edit- experiment with the terminator also
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I'm more convinced it's a problem with the 2091... either the firmware or the revision level of the WD chip. I just tried one of my drives on the SCSI port of my GVP 030 combo. It formatted fine & came back after a re-boot. Then I moved it over to the 2091 & it's bad... it shows up as a drive, but NDOS.
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First of all, your BOOT Hard Drive should ALWAYS be set to ID # 0. Your next SCSI device should be set for ID # 1 and so on. The higher the ID number the lower the priority. For some strange reason the A2091 SCSI Controller card loves Quantum Hard Drives the best. Did you use the A2091 Installation software disk? If you did not, you really should. Here are the instructions for properly installing a new hard drive on an Amiga 2000HD. I am assuming that you are booting from the A2091 Installation Software disk, like you should be doing. Before you begin, make sure that the A2091 disk is NOT write protected (the new hard drive parameters MUST be written to the A2091 Installation disk. Ok, here we go....
First, boot up your Amiga 2000HD with a copy of the original Amiga A2091 Installation Software disk. Make sure that disk is write enabled. Then load up the HDToolbox. The first thing you have to do is to define the new drive type and save it to the disk in DF0. If you do not do this, the Amiga 2000HD will not know what type of a hard drive is installed. To do this: Click on Change Drive Type on the Hard Disk Preparation, Partitioning and Formatting screen. Then click on Define New Drive Type. You can type in the drive's specifications, or you can have the system try to read the drive's specifications by clicking on Read Configuration from Drive. When the correct specifications are selected, then click on OK to return to the Change Drive Type screen. Then click OK again. Next: You MUST Low-Level Format the Hard Drive. After formatting is complete, click on Verify Data on Drive. This will check the hard disk for bad blocks. Next Partition the hard drive and save the changes to disk. Now, reboot your Amiga (warm reboot, NOT COLD). Finally, click on each hard disk partition icon and select Initialize from the Workbench menu. What revision are the BOOT ROMs on your A2091 card?
Revision 4.0 = 512 Megs or lower Hard Drives
Revision 6.6 = 1 Gig or lower Hard Drives
Revision 7.0 = up to 4 Gigs, but NOT higher!
I hope that I have helped you :-D
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What revision are the BOOT ROMs on your A2091 card?
Revision 4.0 = 512 Megs or lower Hard Drives
Revision 6.6 = 1 Gig or lower Hard Drives
Revision 7.0 = up to 4 Gigs, but NOT higher!
I hope that I have helped you :-D
To Doommaster:
U have helped, and everybody else too. I'll just have to wait until i can get a better Rom or a new Controller
Rev 1.3 = Kickstart
Rev 6.6 = BOOT ROM Odd & Even Chips
00-04 = Western Digital Chip
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To maxplunder:
You are welcome. :-P
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Next: You MUST Low-Level Format the Hard Drive.
No you don't. Don't low level format.
The hard disk is low level formatted at the factory and you do not need to (and must NOT) do it yourself. Even if you use the same hard disk on different system (pc, mac, sun, sgi, whatever) before, the physical layout remain the same, and NO low level formatting is required when the disk is moved.
Don't low level format.
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To Piru:
Yes, they are low-level formatted at the factory, but they are formatted for a PC, they are NOT low-level formatted for an Amiga computer. Do your homework, buddy. :-P
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@DoomMaster
Yes, they are low-level formatted at the factory, but they are formatted for a PC, they are NOT low-level formatted for an Amiga computer. Do your homework, buddy.
There is no such thing as "PC low level format". All hard disks work as-is on Amiga.
Apparently you mix physical and logical disk format.
Now, I could do some sarcastic comment about doing your homework, but I won't. It's quite apparent you're not ready to listen or learn.
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To Piru:
It is YOU who is not ready "to listen and learn" !
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DoomMaster wrote:
To Piru:
Yes, they are low-level formatted at the factory, but they are formatted for a PC, they are NOT low-level formatted for an Amiga computer. Do your homework, buddy. :-P
Dude, how many times do you have to be told? Do *NOT* low-level format wether it be SCSI or IDE. EVER. Full Stop. Way too many things can go wrong during a low-level format that will make that drive a paper weight.
I low-level formatted a Seagate SCSI drive with HDToolBox and it was destroyed.
On another note: Properply low-level formating a drive on a PC will yeild the exact same results as low-level formating on an Amiga, Mac, or whatever as far as the drive is concerned. The capabilities and physical characteristics of a drive don't change just because you put it in an Amiga.
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To N7VQM:
You do NOT know what you are talking about. I actually work in this industry and have been working with computers since 1977. I DO know what I am talking about. You would be wise to listen to what I have to say. Many of you so-called tech people do not know what you are talking about and are actually just confusing the poor folks that really do need help. I am here to offer that help! :-D
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You do NOT know what you are talking about. I actually work in this industry and have been working with computers since 1977. I DO know what I am talking about. You would be wise to listen to what I have to say. Many of you so-called tech people do not know what you are talking about and are actually just confusing the poor folks that really do need help. I am here to offer that help!
No matter how long you have been on the industry doesn't help the fact that you're wrong here.
If you are unable to admit your mistake and find out the real facts, it's your loss. However I would advise you to stop spreading the misinformation about this low-level format issue, since it can potentially lead into unusable hard disks.
Nothing is sadder than ignorance and denial.
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To Piru:
When ever I add a new hard drive (one that has never been formatted on an Amiga) to my system, I always do a low-level format, as stated in the actual Amiga 2000 manual on page 5-22. I have never had any problems and all of my hard drives work just fine. If you do not want to listen to me, well at least listen to Commodore. :-D
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Hard drives only need be low level formatted once, and it is usually done in the factory.
I have low level formatted an old SCSI HDD and I did not kill it, however it looks as though some HDD's can be killed, & since it is low level formatted in the factory there should be no need.
Certainly don't low level format an IDE HDD!!
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Holy crap what a tough crowd here!
Perhaps the following link will help you in regards to your installation problem of your specific hard drive:
http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Devices/Disk/DISK_Sgte_ST12400N.html
the manual does indeed suggest an ID number of 4 or 5.
The following link downloads the appropriate appendix B. in regards to SCSI termination, and more importantly details of trying to mix old SCSI devices with newer fast SCSI devices to the same SCSI port.
http://sunsolve.sun.com/data/802/802-2703/pdf/O.app.bnew.pdf
From my own personal experience (which is very limited), I had a similar problem with my GVP SCSI controller. My original system disk was an old Maxtor 201 MB. I ran into similar problems when I tried to mount a much faster DEC 1.2 GB. I had to keep system boot on the slow disk with a priority -10. I set the boot priority on the new disk at -128. I also had to dig into the startup sequence and modify the SCSI controller's driver startup instruction. In my case it was the GVPScsiCtl -r (which tells the startup instruction to rescan the SCSI bus for slower drives).
I also ran into similar problems when I tried adding faster hard drive to the existing XT drive mounted in my A590. It was faced with the familiar blue insert disk screen. This was fixed by simply adjusting dip switch 3. Again this tells the startup instruction to rescan for slower drives. The A590 also uses the A2091 controller, and according to this link, http://www.amigau.com/natamiga/t-2091.shtml , Jumper 5 option 2 also resets the rescan for slower drives.
In regards the low-level formatting, I found it was not necessary for installing any of my hard drives. However because I read the suggestion not to use low-level formatting, if not absolutely required, I just had to try it. The first time that I tried it had no ill effects. The last time that I tried it was on older drive that had started showing errors, and was nearly unworkable. The low-level format seemed to put it out of its misery for good. It is now a paperweight -- sigh...
I really hope this helps, as I remember the frustration I went through.
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@Doommaster
So what ?
I have bought about 15 HDs fror my Amigas in the past year (all from PC-people/shops),
and I only ever once used a low-level-format ....
..... and that was connecting an old 20mb MFM HD to an A2000 via the c't-OMTI-adaptor
and an Seagate ST11-controller (suitable for IBM-XT).
That was done using an
enourmos Amiga-Basic program, but in the end I decided to get an 2088 and
to mount the HD via Janus .... :-o
But :
I never lowlevel-formated the SCSI-HD I had in the A2000 or A4000.
I never low-level-formated the IDE-HDs I had i^n the A2000,A1200,A400 nor the
once used for Amithlon or now in the Pegasos.
To the orginal poster:
It seems that you had set the BOOT-PRI too high as the new HD seemed to be
regognized at 1st try (maybe not with full capacity).
Make sure that your WB-partition on the Quantum has the highest BOOT-PRI
(set in the HD_setup-utility) and it should boot.
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To iamaboringperson:
Amiga computers are suppose to use SCSI hard drives, NOT IDE hard drives. Only people that really do not know what they are doing would even think about installing an inferior hard drive, like an IDE hard drive on an Amiga computer. The smarter folks only use SCSI hard drives on an Amiga computer. And ALL SCSI hard drives for an AMIGA computer MUST be low-level formatted. The main reason for this is because the low-level format on most hard drives are done for a PC, which uses a constant speed (the platters spin at the same speed and never change). The Amiga on the other hand uses variable speed drives (just like the famous Commodore 64 did). So the platters in an Amiga hard disk does not always spin at the same speed. Also, the PC uses Sectors and the Amiga uses Blocks. All of this new type of information has to be added to the hard drives boot blocks 0 and 1. That is where the Low-Level Format comes to play. Have you ever noticed that you can NOT ever use blocks 0 and 1 on an Amiga hard drive? If you find that you can, then you have not properly formatted your hard drive and you WILL have problems with it down the road. By the way, if you do ever screw up the hard drive by doing a low-level format, it means that you did not do the first step correctly (defining the drives parameters). You can always go back and re-enter the correct information and then do another low-level format. It does NOT hurt the drive, because all you are doing is writing information about the drive to the boot blocks 0 and 1. Do your home work people, I have! :-P
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maxplunder wrote:
Rev 1.3 = Kickstart
Rev 6.6 = BOOT ROM Odd & Even Chips
00-04 = Western Digital Chip
I have almost that same configuration... with the exception of the kickstart ROM, which is 2.0.
If the Doommaster is right about the version levels of the 2091 firmware- you might try partitioning the drive with just one partition 1 Gig in size... That wastes half the drive, but it might be a worthwhile experiment...
I found a rev 8 WD chip on a dead 3000 motherboard... when I get a chance, I'll try it on a spare 2091.
BTW, never low-level format a scsi drive, unless you're desperate. :-)
Jim S - in the computer biz since 1976 :-)
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Do your home work people, I have!
:roll:
Yep. And you seem so well informed DoomMaster! Keep up the good work!! :lol:
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To iamaboringperson:
Thanks dude ! :-D
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@DoomMaster
I don't get into your rant about 'IDE vs. SCSI' because that still makes sense somewhat, at least if you don't have proper IDE controller on your Amiga.
However...
And ALL SCSI hard drives for an AMIGA computer MUST be low-level formatted. The main reason for this is because the low-level format on most hard drives are done for a PC, which uses a constant speed (the platters spin at the same speed and never change). The Amiga on the other hand uses variable speed drives (just like the famous Commodore 64 did). So the platters in an Amiga hard disk does not always spin at the same speed.
That's total bullsh*t. Hard disks always rotate on the same speed (except when spinning up/down), regardless of the host system.
Also, the PC uses Sectors and the Amiga uses Blocks.
Total bullsh*t again. The physical addressing is all the same on all systems. Whether the operating system (BIOS is part of it) set some limitations, is completely unrelated.
All of this new type of information has to be added to the hard drives boot blocks 0 and 1. That is where the Low-Level Format comes to play.
Again bullsh*t. There is no such information on blocks 0 and 1. You perhaps try to mean RigidDiskBlock, that is located on the first 16 blocks of the hard disk, but it does NOT contain any information about rotation speed or addressing type. RDB can be written at any stage, *without* need for low level format. It's all software.
Have you ever noticed that you can NOT ever use blocks 0 and 1 on an Amiga hard drive?
Now you're mixing things again. Two first blocks of *mounted* filesystem (de_Reserved) are reserved for bootblock (albeit never used on hard disk). These two reserved blocks have nothing to do with actual disk start or RDB. Heck, they're not even located on disk beginning, but two first blocks of the partition.
Or perhaps you're mixing it to two reserved cylinders (can be more, some tools let you reserve more storage for RDB+data) of the disk? These two cylinders (or 'tracks') are reserved for RDB and related data (partition blocks (PART), badblocks (BADB), filesystems (FSHD & LSEG) and such). Again these have nothing to do with physical layout of the disk and no low-level format is required to use them.
This means that the first partition starts at cylinder (track) 2 way after the disk start. So these reserved 2 blocks are never located at disk start (block 0), if using RDB. Without RDB (mounting the hard disk directly from mountlist as one partition) it's possible to have these two reserved blocks at disk start, however.
If you find that you can, then you have not properly formatted your hard drive and you WILL have problems with it down the road
More bullsh*t. As long as you initialize the disk you're just fine. No need to low-level format.
By the way, if you do ever screw up the hard drive by doing a low-level format, it means that you did not do the first step correctly (defining the drives parameters).
More bullshit. Low level format does NOT require you to set up the drive parameters (if HDToolBox requires it, it's just HDTB. The SCSI command itself requires no knowlege of the medium).
You can always go back and re-enter the correct information and then do another low-level format. It does NOT hurt the drive, because all you are doing is writing information about the drive to the boot blocks 0 and 1.
Yet more bullsh*t. Low level format writes the whole physical disk structure again, and you lose *ALL* information on the hard disk (not just blocks 0 and 1). EVERYTHING is gone and there is no way to get it back.
Also, if the low level format is aborted for some reason (for example power outage or reset), the disk can become unusable, not even accepting the low level format command again.
This coupled with the fact that low level format can take hours, it's quite probable the user gives up and powercycles/resets the machine -> hard disk lost.
Do your home work people, I have!
What you have proven is that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever, and need to go back to school.
Basically I am starting to believe that you're not real, but some sort of humorous fake character created to stirr some trouble.
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@DoomMaster
Please explain the A1200HD and A4000, both of which come with IDE harddrives?
Block == CHS. Cylindar, Head, Sector. This involves the basic geometry of a drive.
Finally about lowlevel formats: Don't be absurd. No one should ever have to lowlevel format a drive in their Amiga or any other computer. EVER.
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What I find funniest of all about that #### is how he thinks that a low-level format is platform dependant! HA!
:lol:
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DoomMaster wrote:
To iamaboringperson:
Amiga computers are suppose to use SCSI hard drives, NOT IDE hard drives.
A computer is supposed to use whatever interface is built into it. The system designer(s) is/are the one(s) who decide what's 'supposed' to be in there.
Only people that really do not know what they are doing would even think about installing an inferior hard drive
Notions of inferior are all in your head. It's all about what you really need. The mechanical parts of SCSI and IDE drives are not sigificantly different. Also, you must keep in mind that SCSI isn't just for hard disks. IDE is only for harddisks. Because of this Integraded Drive Electronics can be less expensive because they only have one base to cover.
So the platters in an Amiga hard disk does not always spin at the same speed.
I want to know exactly where you get this from. Book, author and page, please. Pretend it's a bibliography entry for a report.
Also, the PC uses Sectors and the Amiga uses Blocks.
Sector and blocks are logical conventions.
It does NOT hurt the drive, because all you are doing is writing information about the drive to the boot blocks 0 and 1.
Ahem. To low-level format a hard disk is to place Zeros in all magnetic domains, among other things. It is not limited to blocks 0 and 1.
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To Piru:
WHATEVER, DUDE !!!! Are you attacking ME personally?! I think that YOU are the trouble maker, not me. You have done nothing but harass me. Just go back and LOOK at all of your NEGATIVE posts! :-x
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hmmm.... Let's see what Seagate have to say about low level formating...
one (http://www.seagate.com/support/kb/disc/faq/ata_llfmt_what.html)
two (http://www.seagate.com/support/kb/disc/low_level_mac.html)
So, if it only effects the first two blocks, then why can it take several hours?
Or are Seagate wrong, and DoomMaster correct?
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@DoomMaster
I'm terribly sorry if I offended you in any way, but you're trying to feed your false information as facts. Some ppl might ruin their hardware because of that.
Therefore I feel obliged to correct you.
Perhaps I sound negative because I don't end my every sentence with :-) or ;-) ?
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@DoomMaster
Piru is correct, you have posted very erroneous information that could potentially lead to hardware failure in someone else's machine.
Furthermore, much of the information you were discussing was regarding AmigaOS 1.2/1.3, an A2090/1 controller, and very small harddrives. I can understand where you may think that PrepHD is a lowlevel format, but it is not. Setting up a MountList, a PrepHD, and InstallHD from AmigaDOS 1.3 is far different than a lowlevel format.
Please double check your information before someone loses hardware. I understand your enthusiasm, but you did misinterpret the manual.
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@DoomMaster:
Piru is not a guy to argue with on this. Not because he's angry or aggressive, but because
a) he's not the kid in the picture (anymore)
b) he's an operating systems programmer and one of the best coders on the Amiga platform
c) he's right, and you're wrong!!
Do you happen to shop at Budget Computers, by the way? It's not far from you, you must know it..
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he smarter folks only use SCSI hard drives on an Amiga computer.
Only my cdtv and my a4000 and my a1000 have scusi my a1200 is ide only becauase they are cheaper and easier to setup besides ide drives are half the price and twice as big. :-)
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Double post sorry.
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Piru/N7VQM: I think I know where he's getting his facts confused re: rotation speed - floppy drives. Everyone (with a brain) knows that Amiga floppy drives (like our "sister" - the Mac) use variable speed floppy drives, unlike PC's which are fixed at 300rpm.
The part about low-level formatting a drive is just plain wrong. EVERY manufacturer of hard disk storage solutions state that it shouldn't be done at all by the end user since it's already taken care of at the factory. They typically follow with disclaimers about how you can damage your hardware, etc.
The ONLY thing that's remotely considered "platform specific" about hard disk storage would be how it's filesystem formatted, not low-levelled, since the latter has NOTHING to do with any platform whatsoever.
DoomMaster: No offense, but if you doubt a word of what Piru, N7VQM, or I've said... by all means, try the following test: Begin a low-level format of a drive you could care less about then simulate a power outtage by killing power to the computer. I can guarantee you that drive will be dead, even to low-level SCSI commands, no matter if you put it in a PC (with a SCSI adapter), Mac, or Amiga.
Once again, only try this experiment with a harddrive you can afford to kill, since you certainly WILL kill it.
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@TanZyr
BEEEEEEEEP WRONG :-P :-o
Amiga-floppy-drives are fixed speed and just the same as the PC-ones on the
HW side (apart from the little flip-flop needed by external ones), I even once had
a drive from an Atari-ST connected to my A500 :oops:
The Amiga-HW just writes a shorter sync-gap, and thats whats keeping an PC
from reading Amiga-formated floppies.
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Kronos:
Sorry, matey. Amiga floppy drives spin at half the speed of PC floppies, ergo one of the reasons PC drives have such a hard time reading Amiga floppies. Ask Jens, he's the expert with floppies. ;)
re: variable speed floppies - mostly this occurred on the Mac, and Amiga OS 1.x, esp commercial games, from what I recall. Might be mis-remembering, though...
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Nope .....
Amiga-DD-floppies spin just like PC-ones (Ior how do you think my experment with the
Atari-floppy worked). Amiga-HD-floppies do spin at half the speed of PC-ones as
Paula isn't capable of doing the double amount of data it would get otherwise.
But this reduced speed is used throughout the whole disk, while the old
800k Mac-floppies used different speed for differnet cylinders. Mac-HD-floppies are
again HW-compatible to those used in PCs.
The floppy-controller in a PC has a fixed lenght for the sync-gap in it's HW (3bytes AFAIR),
while the Amiga uses only 2.
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re: variable speed floppies - mostly this occurred on the Mac, and Amiga OS 1.x, esp commercial games, from what I recall. Might be mis-remembering, though...
You mis-remember.
You can't change the rotation speed of the amiga floppy drive via software. It's either not rotating or rotating.
The only way to get something in between would be to quickly turn the motor on/off, but this would result in "jumpy ride" and inconsistent result between various floppy drives (or fail to work at all, depending on the hardware). It'd also be very deadly for the floppy drive and the disk.
The "slow speed" was used when manufacturing (==writing) these protected disks using some advanced mass duplication system called "Trace Machine". The slow speed allowed to write a long track that is imposible to write on real amiga. So, since the real amiga can't lower the speed the disk can't be copied.
For details, see CAPS FAQ (http://www.caps-project.org/faq.shtml).
So, only old Macs (and perhaps some other exotic hw?) used variable speed floppy drive.
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Ok guys, take a step back from this argument and try to make it a constructive one. Don't tell the other person that he's talking rubbish and is the truth, it REALLY DOESN'T HELP.
Quote sources of information, they must be out there somewhere. And not just sources of information that other users have said, something that looks remotely official would be useful.
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Low level format:
Hard Disk Formatting and Capacity (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/geom/format.htm)
In particular:
Low-level formatting is the process of outlining the positions of the tracks and sectors on the hard disk, and writing the control structures that define where the tracks and sectors are. This is often called a "true" formatting operation, because it really creates the physical format that defines where the data is stored on the disk. The first time that a low-level format ("LLF") is performed on a hard disk, the disk's platters start out empty. That's the last time the platters will be empty for the life of the drive. If an LLF is done on a disk with data on it already, the data is permanently erased (save heroic data recovery measures which are sometimes possible).
If you've explored other areas of this material describing hard disks, you have learned that modern hard disks are much more precisely designed and built, and much more complicated than older disks. Older disks had the same number of sectors per track, and did not use dedicated controllers. It was necessary for the external controller to do the low-level format, and quite easy to describe the geometry of the drive to the controller so it could do the LLF. Newer disks use many complex internal structures, including zoned bit recording to put more sectors on the outer tracks than the inner ones, and embedded servo data to control the head actuator. They also transparently map out bad sectors. Due to this complexity, all modern hard disks are low-level formatted at the factory for the life of the drive. There's no way for the PC to do an LLF on a modern IDE/ATA or SCSI hard disk, and there's no reason to try to do so.
...
STOP! Warning: You should never attempt to do a low-level format on an IDE/ATA or SCSI hard disk. Do not try to use BIOS-based low-level formatting tools on these newer drives. It's unlikely that you will damage anything if you try to do this (since the drive controller is programmed to ignore any such LLF attempts), but at best you will be wasting your time. A modern disk can usually be restored to "like-new" condition by using a zero-fill utility.
From: low level format (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/geom/formatLow-c.html)
The distinction between high-level formatting and low-level formatting is important. It is not necessary to low-level format a disk to erase it: a high-level format will suffice for most purposes; by wiping out the control structures and writing new ones, the old information is lost and the disk appears as new. (Much of the old data is still on the disk, but the access paths to it have been wiped out.)
From: high level format (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/geom/formatHigh-c.html)
As I have said (probably too often, sorry) modern drives do not need to be low-level formatted by the end user, and in fact cannot be LLFed outside the factory due to their precision and complexity. However, it seems that the need to LLF hard disks on the part of users has never gone away. Like some primordial instinct, many PC users seem to have a fundamental desire to LLF their modern disks. Maybe it is built into the genetic code in some way yet undiscovered. ;^) In fact, even if it were possible, the vast majority of the time that someone "needs" to LLF a hard disk today, it is not really necessary. Many users jump quickly to wanting to try an "LLF" whenever they have a problem with their hard disk, much the way many jump to re-installing their operating system whenever it gives them trouble.
From: format utilities (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/geom/formatUtilities-c.html)
In general Hard Disk Geometry and Low-Level Data Structures (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/geom/) is a good read. And no, it's not PC only.
RDB structure:
- AmigaOS includes devices/hardblock.h (http://www.amiga.com/3.9/download/NDK3.9.lha)
- Amiga Developer CD 2.1
ADCD_2.1:Reference/DevCon/Washington_1988/Devcon_Extras/HardDisk/HardBlocks
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Devices_Manual_guide/node0079.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Devices_Manual_guide/node007A.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Devices_Manual_guide/node007B.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Includes_and_Autodocs_2._guide/node0041.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Libraries_Manual_guide/node041F.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Libraries_Manual_guide/node0420.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Libraries_Manual_guide/node0421.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Libraries_Manual_guide/node0422.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Libraries_Manual_guide/node0423.html
ADCD_2.1:Reference/HTML/Libraries_Manual_guide/node0424.html
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First of all, your BOOT Hard Drive should ALWAYS be set to ID # 0. Your next SCSI device should be set for ID # 1 and so on. The higher the ID number the lower the priority.
You've got it the wrong way around. ID6 has higher prio than ID0
(ever wonder why the controller is usually at ID7?)
Information about scsi. (http://www.stompinc.com/kb/sbu/237651.htm)
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Quote sources of information, they must be out there somewhere. And not just sources of information that other users have said, something that looks remotely official would be useful.
Here is from the Swedish manual for ExpertPrep and FaaastPrep from GVP (translated from swe->eng by me):
"Low level format: By clicking on this button, you send the command for doing a low level format of the current drive. A low level format is something the hard disk manufacturer use to prepare an all-new hard disk to accept system specific structures (such as blocks and tracks). Before you can prepare or format a new hard disk, this must be low level formatted. This is made by the manufacturer and should normally not be done more than once."
So... It's already carried out by the manufacturer and you should not do it again. Then it goes on:
"WARNING! This command destroys all data on your hard disk!"
Then comes a screenshot of a requester, and lastly:
"A low level format will destroy all data on the drive. Exceptions from this are the Quantum 'S' and 'LPS' series. On these disks a low level format has no effect whatsoever."
This is from the book "Faaast Prep 2.0 / Version 2 Svensk", (c) 1992 GVP and Karlberg & Karlberg.
The above information is available on page 36 in the Swedish translation.
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Oh, and I probably should add that I have never in my whole life low-level-formatted a hard disk. I've taken disks from PCs running both Windows and Linux, put them directly in my A1200, partitioned them and then just quick formatted them. I have never had any trouble whatsoever.
I've also put Amiga formatted disks in PCs and formatted them with fdisk or Windows without any low-level format on the PC.
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Oh, and I probably should add that I have never in my whole life low-level-formatted a hard disk. I've taken disks from PCs running both Windows and Linux, put them directly in my A1200, partitioned them and then just quick formatted them. I have never had any trouble whatsoever.
I lowlevelformatted my very first own hard disk when I was still a kid.. (I had done it on PCs with ESDI controllers before, but that's different - you can change some parameters (like the capacity!) on ESDI drives yourself by re-lowlevelformatting them. NOT APPLICABLE TO SCSI/IDE, NO USE LOWLEVELFORMATTING THEM, EVER)
This time it took so very long that I got bored and switched off the machine.. Big mistake! Dead machine, the HD reported write errors every time I tried to do anything to it. I called all around Finland for support for my problem.. In the end I found out that if the drive starts the LLF, it must be completed before you can use it again.
Luckily my drive was one of those that go into a "dumb mode" if the LLF is interrupted.. The only command it accepts is LLF, so I restarted the LLF, did something else while it formatted (took something like four hours :-D) and the drive worked again. Quite a shock for a kid who almost thought he ruined some expensive HW.. I was lucky, many others haven't been. :-(
Please note, that some drives accept the LLF command, but don't actually do anything - they complete immediately. Guess why? - You are correct, it's because you are not supposed to do it yourself and the vendors got tired of replacing drives the users botched up.
Anyway, this is some empiric experience that came from messing with LLF, it's not hearsay or rumour.
Bottom line: DON'T LOWLEVELFORMAT ANY MODERN SCSI or IDE HARD DRIVE. (also don't mix setting up partitions with LLF, it's as far from LLF as Pluto is from the Sun.)
[Edit: I was a little harsh - there are situations when a LLF is good, so it's actually not "never" but "99,999% of the time never" .. I just want to stress the fact that you shouldn't do it, because it is potentially dangerous, 99.999% of the time totally unnecessary and if you have a power outage or your cat presses reset or something, you might end up with an expensive paperweight!]
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To Everyone:
I'm sorry that I started theis post for help. I have and will always do a Low-Level Format on drives when I recieve them. I have never "KILLED" a HD in my life. I've been working with IDE, SCSI, and Firewire drives. My computer experence is such that I have rescued dead drives "BY" a LLF. Since 1984, I have worked on computers. I build them. And though Amiga is fairly new to my experence, the SCSI bus is still the same.
I just wish that if ya'll want to argue about this please move it to a new thread and don't make the person asking for help sort through all this garbage.
If I ever need any help again and post it here I hope I never have to read through all of this BULL again
Thank you
Doug
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If I ever need any help again and post it here I hope I never have to read through all of this BULL again
Good one DoomMaster. :-x
Where do you get the name? You tell people how best to destroy their HDD's? Perhaps next time you will tell us how to stick screw drivers in power sockets? You are the master of doom. :-x
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by iamaboringperson on 2003/8/31 23:35:26
Quote:
If I ever need any help again and post it here I hope I never have to read through all of this BULL again
Good one DoomMaster.
Where do you get the name? You tell people how best to destroy their HDD's? Perhaps next time you will tell us how to stick screw drivers in power sockets? You are the master of doom.
he, he, he . . .effectively, was the first think i've thought too. (the style is the same . .but)
But i'm not 100% sure. Are there someone that is be able to trace this "new" guy? :-D
Ciao
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This is for EVERYBODY:
I don't really care about the arguement. I guess I'll just have to find somewhere else to ask questions about the amiga. all i'm getting now is flames.
BTW the "new" guy (ME) is the one who posted this question in the first place. I will report this thread to the moderators. All I did was ask an Honest Question and wanted an Honest Answer. This forum remindes me of the Democratic Underground Forum. The first few posts I recieved was helpful, but it soon turned to a flame fest, vulgarity and all.
I hope you are all satisified u have lost a member
Maxplunder aka Doug Merritt
Origional Thread Poster
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I think "new guy" was targeted at Doommaster who has been nothing
but trouble sofar.
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by Kronos on 2003/8/31 23:58:00
I think "ne guy" was targeted at Doommaster who has been nothing
but trouble sofar.
Sorry . .what "ne guy" stay for? can you explain me better?
Ciao
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me was just missing a "w" here :-D ;-) :-o
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by Kronos on 2003/9/1 0:10:24
me was just missing a "w" here
oh my God! . . .i was already thinking to another neologism . . .fiuu!!!
Ciao
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maxplunder wrote:
I have and will always do a Low-Level Format on drives when I recieve them.
You are really just wasting time. New harddives are ignoring you because an end-user LLF is not needed.
the SCSI bus is still the same.
Yep, it's still the SCSI bus but the drives mechanics are NOT the same.
I suggest reading through the links Piru presented. An alternate location for the Hard Disk Geometry info can be found HERE (http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/hist.html). It's well worth the read.
Hard drives have changed ALOT since thier inception. Hell, they changed alot just in the 1990's. Much of the wisdom that applied to harddrives when we all started in computers doesn't apply anymore because they are just so much better now.
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I don't really care about the arguement. I guess I'll just have to find somewhere else to ask questions about the amiga. all i'm getting now is flames.
BTW the "new" guy (ME) is the one who posted this question in the first place. I will report this thread to the moderators. All I did was ask an Honest Question and wanted an Honest Answer.
maxplunder I know how you feel, however you will need to understand that when people are only trying to help you, there will occasionally be some ignoramous telling people to do the wrong thing. What do you expect people to do except correct him so as to avoid trouble? They are simply doing it for YOUR benefit so that you don't do the wrong thing based on misinformation. It might be true that YOU do know better, however there are people who come here asking for help, and it would not be a nice thing if they were misinformed, just because one jerk can't the fact straight and they follow his advice - instead of having a barage of helpful people correcting the bullshit.
You must see this from a complete beginers point of view.
If somebody posts crap advice it needs to be corrected, to avoid problems, and to avoid a begginer leaving due to having their expensive hardware or valuable data being destroyed.
I hope you are all satisified u have lost a member
Don't worry, it happens all the time. If you can't accept the fact that people are trying to help you when there are idiots spreading misinformation, and that those people you have called flamers are the ones who are trying to correct the information to YOUR benefit, then perhaps you don't deserve the help at all.
If you ask a question expect people to try to help, not become your slave.
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BTW, I just tried the Rev 8 WD chip on that drive with a 2091 and Rev 6.1 firmware... it still fails, so I guess it's time to look at new ROMS, try software hut... or a different controller altogether...
Hope you give the thread another shot, and ingnore the flamers, and TRue Relocation Program participants. :-)