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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Amithony on October 30, 2008, 10:24:59 AM
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Im surprised there hasnt been much talk around OS4.1 these days.
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On the downside :
There is no decent hardware to run it on.
OS4.x for Classics doesn't run classic software (that bangs the hardware) meaning you need an OS3.x dual boot system.
The new SAM hardware is over priced and underpowered.
On the plus side:
It does come in a very nice box.
Die hard Amiga users with too much money will probably love both the SAM and OS4.1 :-)
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So how much are we talking here? :)
alexh wrote:
There is no decent hardware to run it on.
OS4.x for Classics doesn't run classic software (that bangs the hardware) meaning you need an OS3.x dual boot system.
The new SAM hardware is over priced and underpowered.
Die hard Amiga users with too much money will probably love both the SAM and OS4.1 :-)
On the plus side it comes in a nice box.
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€600* for a 667MHz consumer version (includes everything except monitor) plus €120 for OS4.1
~$1,400 AUD
http://www.acube-systems.biz/eng/sam.php
* Sam440ep board with 512 MB DDR Ram, ATI Radeon M9 64MB and Audio 5.1 onboard, SATA DVD-RW, SATA 80 Gb Hard Disk, Logitech Optical Mouse
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Wowzer! That is a lot. I wonder if anyone has tried getting it to work under emulation? :)
alexh wrote:
€600 for a 667MHz version plus €120 for OS4.1
~$1,400 AUD
http://www.acube-systems.biz/eng/sam.php
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I wonder if anyone has tried getting it to work under emulation?
It would probably take a large amount of effort to get it working well, not to mention dumping the BIOS, re-coding the available PPC emulator engines for a 440EP etc.
The fact we've not seen an emulator for OS4.0 classic is a good indication that no-one is going to do it IMHO.
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True. But man it would be nice to have. I am impressed by the screenshots. I take it compatibility with old KS 1.3 -> 3 SW is not exactly going to be great. :)
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while i agree with the cost side of things... the x86 world has kinda gotten us used to mega mass production and assocciated cost to market savings. so a limited production run will always cost more...
also, how much money have people dropped on buying an iPhone toy?
and how many people will still be using either an iPhone or sam4.1 in a year or twos time? (hopefully more iphones gathering dust in kitchen draws than sams ;-)
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I would have been happier with a 1Ghz version at that price though. Maybe coming soon? :)
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Geez Alex a litle bit of creative accounting there mate Vesalia sells the mobo and Os for about 640euros and then you can deduct the vat I paid $970.00 including express postage to oz :-D granted the ozzie dollar has kacked itself but the mobo and os would still cost less than your figures, oh and it all runs quite nicely too thankyou I,m very happy with it, everything installed smoothly and worked first time, I,d have no probs recommending it to anyone so there you go the reason its very quiet on here is simply because were all to busy having fun :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I am very happy with AmigaOS 4.1 and use it daily. It totally replaced my AmigaOS 4.0 install once I fixed the AmigaInput and now play games, watch movies, code, program, edit graphics, design and do everything else a computer would require on it, so I don't plan to buy PC for now.
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alexh wrote:
On the downside :
There is no decent hardware to run it on.
OS4.x for Classics doesn't run classic software (that bangs the hardware) meaning you need an OS3.x dual boot system.
The new SAM hardware is over priced and underpowered.
On the plus side:
It does come in a very nice box.
Die hard Amiga users with too much money will probably love both the SAM and OS4.1 :-)
Have you run OS 4.0/4.1?
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bigmac wrote:
Geez Alex a litle bit of creative accounting there mate
I dont think so!! The prices came directly from the ACube website!
bigmac wrote:
Vesalia sells the mobo and Os for about 640euros
Where is the case, DDR RAM, hard drive, DVD-RW and all the other things that were included in the price above!!
cv643d wrote:
Have you run OS 4.0/4.1?
I tried OS 4.0 Classic but when it became obvious that backwards compatibility was low I had to create a 3.x dual boot which I now use whenever I use my Amiga. I do not use my Amiga for every day computing. A bit of retrogaming, demos, the odd bit of coding.
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alexh wrote:
cv643d wrote:
Have you run OS 4.0/4.1?
I tried OS 4.0 Classic but when it became obvious that backwards compatibility was low I had to create a 3.x dual boot which I now use whenever I use my Amiga. I do not use my Amiga for every day computing. A bit of retrogaming, demos, the odd bit of coding.
So, you haven't actually tried Amiga OS 4.1, yet you post about its pros and cons. As someone who has Amiga OS 4.1 (on an A1-XE) let me just say that it is a big improvement over OS 4.0. It's a nice system. The compositing works well; it's more stable; AmigaInput is back (joystick support); almost every part of the system has been improved in some way. OWB is included, so you have a CSS browser (the features are still basic though, e.g., no download support yet). Some of the new features I don't use, e.g., the PTP file transfer (my camera works as a mass-storage device). Most importantly for me, the extra functionality it provides for developers (e.g., built in Cairo) expands the possibilities.
I do agree with you though that the hardware is expensive and hope that work is being done toward lowering the cost of entry.
Hans
P.S. It was always made clear that hardware banging apps wouldn't be supported.
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Amithony wrote:
Im surprised there hasnt been much talk around OS4.1 these days.
We're too busy using OS 4.1. ;-)
Hans
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alexh wrote:
OS4.x for Classics doesn't run classic software (that bangs the hardware)
Thats not true. I've run quite a few demos that turn off the OS and bang the hardware successfully. Admittedly, WHDLoad doesn't work (this is on A4000).
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I just got my copy of OS 4.1 today.
Now I only need some HW to run it on :-D
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Hans_ wrote:
So, you haven't actually tried Amiga OS 4.1, yet you post about its pros and cons.
I don't need to try it to comment that the SAM440EP is expensive (cos it is). And I have seen pictures of the OS4.1 box so I can comment on that too ;-)
Hans_ wrote:
P.S. It was always made clear that hardware banging apps wouldn't be supported.
It wasn't that clear because myself and many others didn't know until after it came out.
BTW: What is JXFS? Is it a port of SGI's XFS to AmigaOS4?
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@alexh
AFAIK JXFS is a completely new journaling file-system written by the same guy that wrote SFS.
Hans
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Joerg Strohmayer? He wasn't the original creator of SFS but I know what you mean.
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@alexh
Oops. Make that the current maintainer of SFS (or just the maintainer of the OS4 version of SFS).
Hans
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Only got Sam and 4.1 on Monday, so it's not fully configured to my liking, but I'm already very happy with it.
4.1 is an improvement on 4.0 which was an inprovement on 3.9 etc.
So what's not to like?
Put that on hardware significantly faster than my A1200 BPPC like Sam and life is rosy.
Admittedly Sam is pricey compared to other systems but is is cheap in comparison with other Amiga models of similar spec.
Compatibility with 4.0 wasn't an issue with 4 versus 3.9 for general use software in fact it became the other way round.
Some apps started to be developed for 4.0 only.
The obvious acception to this is WHD (A great proggy)
I used the dual boot option same as others mentioned.
I'm told there are ways to use WHD under emulation EUAE, I think.
I will test this to see if this is a feasible option for Sam.
If not, It's not a big issue as I will be keeping my classic system anyway.
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Amithony wrote:
Im surprised there hasnt been much talk around OS4.1 these days.
Well.. there isn't that much to talk over 4.0. And it still needs to be developed in several areas to be really talkable :)
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alexh wrote:
On the plus side:
It does come in a very nice box.
:lol:
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$1400 is definitely insane.
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OS 4.1 is the best O/S I've ever used. At all. And I've used a few (including AmigaOS 1.2 through to 3.9 and 4.0).
Why? Because it's very very fast and responsive, isn't full of bells and whistles that lower reliability and speed, it's intuitive to program (pardon the pun) and it's just NICE. It does all I need an OS to do, and doesn't pretend to be something it isn't (c.f. Windows pretending to be some kind of media hub or something). Backward compatilibity is also pretty good and runs most things I've thrown at it.
OK, it's not as solid as a proper UN*X system, but it gets a darn sight more bang/buck because of it, and that's how I like it. It's a cost of the Amiga-style memory system.
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@Amithony
Im surprised there hasnt been much talk around OS4.1 these days.
That's because you are reading the wrong web forums.
Try www.amigaworld.net and www.amigans.net instead.
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Ram was included with motherboard my friend :lol:
you should try it Alex you will be pleasantly surprised.
cheers :-D
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Anyone know if Moana is going to be available any time soon? I'd be pissed if I bought uncle SAM and then found out I coud use an old PPC Mac mini with twice the power at half the price...
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@persia
No! And don't count on it.
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I reckon it might be a keeper. Im cutting out a coffee a day until i save up enough for one :)
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The Sam440 has lots of modern amenities... did'nt the price increase after the release of os4 for samm?
If I remember correctly rhe price was somethig like $550 at one point.
The current pricing is too high, even for specialty market like this. It should be 1.2 ghtz or MAYBE 800 mgzt the lowest for this price. Considering that a "specialty mac market" dual 2.0 ghtz g4 upgrade cards costs $389, this should have a faster CPU for the current price.
Os4 price is fair adjusted for infaltion and In line with what Commodore would charge for os3.1, os2.1 with roms and such. You did get a nice set of pro-designed printed manuals with Commodore though...
If had money to burn I'd get one just to support the dudes that worked on this. But emualtion on XBOX, PC, and Mac, serve me quite well...
That makes me think, classic support is very important. I just want to run my old games and apps on modern hardware. Not pay beyonf top dollar for new hardware, and software that is incompatible with everything I have...
Also due to the (10 year?) wait for PPC software and hardware availability who will even want to code for os4, even from a retro hobbyist tinkerer standpoint?
Certainly not at these prices. The target market is the uber hardcore Amiga geek and how many of us are there? Maybee 3000 or so, and fading fast...
Oh well now the high price makes perfect sense... :crazy:
http://www.geeks.com/pix/2008/HP5K.html
The above link with UAE or installed makes perfect sense...
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I'm still getting mighty tempted to buy one. :)
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@Amithony
I am very happy with OS4.1 in my micro. It seems more polished than 4.0, and more stable. I find that my micro with OS4.x is very quick and is more responsive than several of my WinXP Pro machines. As a long time Amiga user (20+ years now), I think it is the best Amiga OS yet.
For those who complain about the high price of SAM + OS4, the amount of money I have in my micro is far less than what I have sunk into my A2500/Blizzard 060/PicassoIV system over the years - or what others have in their Cyberstorm equipped machines. Amigas never have been cheap and probably never will be. The SAM system costs less than my micro and is lowest price Amiga system that I have ever seen.
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I know that the cost of the hardware relative to the price back in the day is far cheaper. Bang per buck is clearly going to be better. I remember that the requirements to run software were far lower than its PC counterparts where a Mb of RAM really went far. Is it still the case now with 4.1?
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spirantho wrote:
Why? Because it's very very fast and responsive, isn't full of bells and whistles that lower reliability and speed, it's intuitive to program (pardon the pun) and it's just NICE. It does all I need an OS to do, and doesn't pretend to be something it isn't (c.f. Windows pretending to be some kind of media hub or something). Backward compatilibity is also pretty good and runs most things I've thrown at it.
For me it certainly doesn't do all I need from an OS. The biggest problem is lack of file management options. Amiga's Workbench hasn't ever been good for handling the files and still isn't in 4.1. I've been using Magellan2 as Workbench replacement over 10 years on my classic Amigas and using plain WB is just impossible for real work. OS4's problem is also with external filemanagers, Magellan doesn't work and even old time clumsy two view managers don't seem to work good enough (for example dopus4 and amidisk crash too much with 4.1). Also when you try to fall back to shell, it doesn't help much in file management... no backbuffer/scrollbar, no tabs, no anything.
Well, that's the main reason why OS4 still can't be my main OS. But luckily there still is options in Amiga world and I can live without mainstream platforms ;)
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@pVC
For me it certainly doesn't do all I need from an OS. The biggest problem is lack of file management options. Amiga's Workbench hasn't ever been good for handling the files and still isn't in 4.1. I've been using Magellan2 as Workbench replacement over 10 years on my classic Amigas and using plain WB is just impossible for real work. OS4's problem is also with external filemanagers, Magellan doesn't work and even old time clumsy two view managers don't seem to work good enough (for example dopus4 and amidisk crash too much with 4.1). Also when you try to fall back to shell, it doesn't help much in file management... no backbuffer/scrollbar, no tabs, no anything.
Good points. I miss Opus Magellan on OS4 too. DOpus 4 is good and getting better all the time but its still not the same. You should try the latest betas of DOpus4. It is very stable on my machine.
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@Amithony
I remember that the requirements to run software were far lower than its PC counterparts where a Mb of RAM really went far. Is it still the case now with 4.1?
Generally speaking yes, although recent ports from other platforms require lots of memory - OWB is a good example. In my experience, in normal use 256MB is fine for my micro. I have been playing around with OWB and I wish I had 512MB.
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Admittedly Sam is pricey compared to other systems but is is cheap in comparison with other Amiga models of similar spec.
I was expecting a much lower cost board due to it's use of cost reduction techinques, mainly the power PC with built in peripheral support. $400-550 would be reasonable
Plus the OS4 cost.
Still a great board, but for me but at this cost the purchase status is "probably not...
At the magic 400-500 spot that could become a yes.
A sweet spot of $300 would reslut in a resounding "HELL YES" and become the Amiga 1200 replacement- upgrade I've been waiting for.
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They really need to get the motherboard/cpu down to around $300.00.
$650 for those specs are a joke.
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Look, from what I can gather, you either want one or you just wish you could have one.
In my case, I wanted a system to replace windows crap, and so I tried Linux related OS's, I tried my friends Mac's, I tried Aros, Xamiga, Amithlon, Amikit, and still, not happy.
Then one day I went to the A1200 with 3.9 os, and realised, it may be lacking some things, but its functionality works to my liking.
End result................ I am now awaiting the arrival of my new Amiga system Sam440ep os4.1
I have mates that own Amiga Ones, and they use it more so than their macs, so, if os4.1 is better than 4.0 by far, than, I cant see a problem for me to use it as my everyday system.
If I wanted games, Id get a ps3 or something, IF you want functionality for basics such as web browsing, photogenics, imagine 6 or aladdin4d, etc, then, may as well be an AMiga.
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I've also tried to all the above OS's looking for the Amiga feel, speed and efficiency and nothing measures up. All they really need is to get a firefox or equivalent port a decent office suite and ImageFX or like it and that will give me all I'd need. But the price is a little too high..
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persia wrote:
Anyone know if Moana is going to be available any time soon? I'd be pissed if I bought uncle SAM and then found out I coud use an old PPC Mac mini with twice the power at half the price...
If you want to use an Amigaish system on a Mac Mini, wait for the according MorphOS release. Currently the audio and network driver are still missing, but apart from that it is reported to be quite advanced (presentation at the user meeting Bad Barmstedt last weekend). Frank Mariak confrimed it should be rolled out topically. The demonstration included a fluent 1080 h.264 video replay.
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Amithony,
Bang per buck is clearly going to be better.
No, it's not. The real Amiga was able to do things that no other home computer could touch, it *had* bang for the buck. OS4 doesn't do anything you can't do on any other commonly available commodity system these days, OS4 just does it a bit more clumsily.
Think back to the 80s or early 90s what the Amiga was like. Didn't you ever try to imagine what Amiga would be like in 20+ years? Now, think about OS4. Does it match your expectations?
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@jorkany
That depends on how you look at it. If you simply compare an old Amiga to a new one, the new one leaves it in the dust by a huge margin, hence bigger bang for buck. Of course, one could also take a PC bought in the 90s and compare it to a new PC and say the same thing.
You, on the other hand, factor in your personal desires/expectations and compare the new Amiga to what you wish that it were (I know you said that you were extrapolating from what it was, but it's the same thing). Obviously your expectations for a product that hasn't been developed continuously by a large corporation is rather unrealistic. Clearly you won't be happy with one of these new machines.
Personally, as someone who actually has Amiga OS 4.1 (not the SAM), it really is a much improved version of the original Amiga OS.
Hans
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Part of the price comparison issue is that most of us are old timers, we remember when Amiga was state of the art. When Amiga defined personal computing. Those days are gone forever, once we accept that and take the Amiga for what it is now, a hobbyist and collectors machine, we can better appreciate the price.
If your waiting for a state of the art machine that does video and graphical processing faster and better than what's out there for less money, you are going to be disappointed, but if you are looking for a machine that you can relive the head days of '80's computing, where you get to understand the processes you are doing rather than just let the computer do them for you, where you are running on bailing wire, a wing and a prayer. They you understand the Amiga and will appreciate OS4.
Amiga, the coelacanth of computers!
(http://img.tfd.com/eb/thumbs/7630.gif)