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The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: persia on October 17, 2008, 03:48:58 PM
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Windows 7 to get ‘instant on’ mode?
David Flynn17 October 2008, 9:25 PM (4 hours 18 minutes ago.)
Microsoft is considering giving Windows users near-instant access to Web browsing, VoIP, video IM chat and multimedia playback without waiting for the entire OS to load.
The significance of the number in Windows 7’s name could take on a whole new meaning.
What if you could stab the power button on your desktop or laptop and within seven seconds be able to browse the Web, use online video chat, make VoIP calls, listen to music or watch a movie? How about being able to check your calendar, look up a phone number in your address book or even run an Office app?
Those are some of the options Microsoft is putting on the table for a new ‘Instant On’ mode. Detailed in an online survey and revealed by Engadget, Instant On is Microsoft’s response to the growing number of pre-boot environments being adopted by PC builders – environments which are almost always based on Linux.
While these began as ways to play music and DVDs, the latest iterations extend to online activities including email, Skype and gaming. Among the more advanced pre-Windows environments are Splashtop, which Asus has customised as Express Gate and is now loading onto all its motherboards, and Dell’s Latitude ON, which appears in the company’s new Latitude business notebooks and even includes synchronisation with an Exchange server.
“Instant On takes your computer from being completely powered down to being usable for a few specific activities in a very short amount of time” cites the survey. “The Instant On experience is different from ‘Full Windows’ because it limits what activities you can do and what applications you have access to.”
“In the ‘Instant On’ scenario, your computer would be usable in eight seconds” the survey explains, but continues that “you would not have full access to Windows or all of your applications.”.
However, ‘Access to Office applications’ is listed among the possible Instant On activities that survey respondents are asked to rate. Others include email, “video chat through an instant messaging application” and “Voice over IP through an application like Skype”.
By baking Instant On mode into the Windows OS itself, Microsoft would make it harder for PC makers to justify the additional cost and resource of implementing a stand-alone fast-boot system.
Most fast-boot systems currently work by loading the pre-boot OS from a dedicated slab of flash memory fitted to the motherboard. Dell’s Latitude ON involves an entire system-on-chip (SoC) module containing its own low-power ARM processor and additional flash memory for storage, so that it runs independently of the notebook’s hard drive or main processor. This dramatically extends a laptop’s battery life when the instant-on OS is used for tasks normally handled by Windows.
Fortunately, Microsoft already has a head start for Instant On in the shape of Windows PE. This is a pared-down version of Windows built around the same kernel and originally used during Windows installation – hence its formal name of Windows Preinstallation Environment.
However, WinPE can also be used to load a useful pre-Windows operating environment – Dell chose WinPE as the foundation for its fast-boot MediaDirect system, which already includes the ability to view PowerPoint presentations and Outlook contacts. One of the advantages of WinPE is that because it has full access to and compatibility with Windows OS drivers it can be configured to use any part of the host PC and connected hardware.
Microsoft would be required to set a new hardware platform for Instant On systems, bake the subset, which could position the Instant On environment in a hard disk partition for low cost or a standalone flash memory chip for speedier access and in the case on notebooks, extended battery life.
APC (http://apcmag.com/Content.aspx?id=3090)
(http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/piggybank.gif)
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Or they could just improve the efficiency of the damn thing so that it actually boots in 8 seconds, like another certain operating system we know...
Talk about mixed up priorities. With the power of today's PC hardware, they should be ashamed of themselves that the OS is just as slow as ever, if not slower.
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They should call it "Sort of On". :-) But it's a nice feature anyway.
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My TI 99-4/A would boot into a game or app in about 1/2 second after turning it on.
Of course it could take a while to load from a disk it you needed something that had been saved. Or even worse, trying to get something off of a cassette tape.
I wonder why they can't have the basics of the OS load from a rom or flash card. That way you can log in to the system and get started while waiting for non-essential stuff to load.
-JM
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Matt_H wrote:
Talk about mixed up priorities. With the power of today's PC hardware, they should be ashamed of themselves that the OS is just as slow as ever, if not slower.
Why is booting the OS a benchmark for the speed of the OS? XP and Vista cold boot in <30 seconds. Not really huge amounts of time. With stand-by and hibernation it's much quicker.
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Or just use S3 suspend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and_Power_Interface#Global_states) rather than powering off. The computer will resume instantly when you push the power button.
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It's not always the OS which is slow/fast in booting.
Considering my own Core2Duo box:
- normal BIOS boot with detection of disks (nop, can't switch detection off)
- IDE chip bios boot (no detection as I hardset the dvd drive as only device)
- extra sata raid chip bios boot for esata connector, obviously with drive detect...
long story short: the multiple bios boots take slightly more time then the then following windows hibernate wakeup.
Let's say 60% of the time is needed for the hardware to come up.. and 40% for hibernated windows to get up.
Tom UK
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That way you can log in to the system and get started while waiting for non-essential stuff to load.
You mean like how IE pretends to be the fastest loading browser by throwing up a useless window right after you click the icon?
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My Commodore 64 boots in 1 second. Ta da! :-o
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Piru wrote:
Or just use S3 suspend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and_Power_Interface#Global_states) rather than powering off. The computer will resume instantly when you push the power button.
If only it would work properly... I find my self often trying set my computer to stand by mode multiple times before it actually goes to one. Usually windows just say that it is getting ready for suspend mode and right after "everything" shutsdown it powers it self right back up :madashell: Freaking annoying.
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I'm no expert on the inner workings of windows but a newly installed Vista boots and shuts down pretty fast. Then you install the essentials and soon the happiness ends.
Why oh why is it allowed for programs to preload. I rather wait for a big program to load than wait for preloading of programs that perhaps is not used that day. Even if the startup is set not to load it does not seem to matter. Somebody may know the mysterious MS thinking behind this. It eludes me.
And as said earlier in this thread, regardless of cpu power the damn OS still manages to drag it down to snail speed. This is partly why i have such big hopes for AROS. I'm about to test the new AROS 0.9.1. It's closing in on the big 1.0. I saw at the AROS EXEC that somebody have been able to get the amosaic2 working. Don't know the consequenses of this. An early first step towards internet.?? I monitoring the development of that.
Sorry for the long post.
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there should be an instant off mode
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There is an instant off mode. Pull the plug! Or hold the power button for 10 seconds...hahahaha
With journaled filesystems (both Windows and Mac have had this for awhile now) (if you've ever wondered why chkdsk only runs on *some* power failures) we could probably almost go back to the old way of turning things off at random.. Maybe with some perfection.. You'd still want to save things first, but that has never been any different.
Thanks,
Neofree
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neofree wrote:
There is an instant off mode. Pull the plug! Or hold the power button for 10 seconds...hahahaha
With journaled filesystems (both Windows and Mac have had this for awhile now)
NTFS is not, nor has ever been journaled, which is why even today Vista requires ocational defragmentation.
The supposed WinFS that was to be a fully journaled filesystem, never materialised. In fact, WinFS was actually promissed back when XP was being prepped... So it's not a new idea either.
neofree wrote:
(if you've ever wondered why chkdsk only runs on *some* power failures) we could probably almost go back to the old way of turning things off at random.. Maybe with some perfection.. You'd still want to save things first, but that has never been any different.
Vista by default schedules defragmentation for once a week. I never saw chkdsk run in Win2000 whenever it went down, but that does not make NTFS as seen in all of the later NT based windows releases any more a Journaled filesystem then the Amiga's FFS.
Sorry to bring up an old thread like this, but I hate seeing disinformation.
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yeah agreed on the s3 suspend..... my laptop will only sit in suspend or standby for about 30 to 45 minutes before it'll wake up all by itself. even with the screen still shut. almost like its gone, "oh darn, i havn't reported back to microsoft for at least half an hour. lets fire up and do it anyway"
bit of a bugger when its in its foam lined case in the back of the car for an hour or two, and decides to fully power on. got a mite bit toasty! :-o (till it ran out of battery) :lol:
till i realised and now fully power off. but since going from 32bit to 64bit, startup and shutdown are pretty rapid. more than is explicable with just an OS bit depth change..
there was this "instant on" thing intel were toting around a while back. basicly all it did was mute the speakers and switch the screen off. the machine was will running at full pelt. people were confused by the "do not remove power even when switched off", and the fact the fans and drives were still spinning...
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@the_leander
NTFS is not, nor has ever been journaled, which is why even today Vista requires ocational defragmentation.
Um, what does journaling have to do with need of defragmentation?
I never saw chkdsk run in Win2000 whenever it went down, but that does not make NTFS as seen in all of the later NT based windows releases any more a Journaled filesystem then the Amiga's FFS.
NTFS does have metadata journaling. Amiga FFS doesn't have any, not even atomic commits.
Sorry to bring up an old thread like this, but I hate seeing disinformation.
...
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@Painkiller
Usually windows just say that it is getting ready for suspend mode and right after "everything" shutsdown it powers it self right back up
I've seen this happen with certain older desktops. Usually disabling some USB wake up options cure it.
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The only way to get windows loading in any kind of 'instant on mode' is to put the OS in chip form and access it directly through the hardware.
Good luck! MS will have to slim it down substantially in order to fit it all in ... plus all the mobo makers will have to gear up for a completely new design. Maybe they'll put the core routines for the new windows on a read only usb memory stick. That'll fox the pirates NOT! :lol:
Then if they wanted to go into 'cloud computing mode' they would have to make sure their servers were 100% hack proof - I recall something similar being said during the hype for windows xp and that was hacked before it's official release. Somebody posing outside the MS offices with a hacked xp cd soon put paid to that claim.
Ho hum! :lol:
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Piru wrote:
@the_leander
NTFS is not, nor has ever been journaled, which is why even today Vista requires ocational defragmentation.
Um, what does journaling have to do with need of defragmentation?
My understanding was that a truely journaled filesystem would not need defragmenting. That the system would, for the most part keep itself in check. I thought that was one of the main benefits of having a journaled filesystem - that fragmentation would be (again, for the most part) a thing of the past.
Piru wrote:
I never saw chkdsk run in Win2000 whenever it went down, but that does not make NTFS as seen in all of the later NT based windows releases any more a Journaled filesystem then the Amiga's FFS.
NTFS does have metadata journaling. Amiga FFS doesn't have any, not even atomic commits.
As I understood it, FFS was no better then FAT - simply a listing of files with little/nothing else added.
Piru wrote:
Sorry to bring up an old thread like this, but I hate seeing disinformation.
...
I stand corrected. Further, I withdraw my previous post.
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Tbh I'm still surprised that they didn't take the NT codebase and strip it down to the bare basics (ala BartPE and similar) and rig it up for windows mobile/ WinCE.
Whilst being small doesn't necesarily equate to offering flexibility. Being huge leaves a lot of openings for security issues, even if your code is relatively clean to begin with. It would seem, especially with the burgeoning Netbook market, that a slim base with a modular system would be preferable.
I was interested in what Microsoft were doing with their Singularity project and tbh I'm dumbfounded that they dumped it. Something like Singularity with a win32 sandbox (similar in principle to OSX with it's classic MacOS support) would I think be a good idea.
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Piru wrote:
@Painkiller
Usually windows just say that it is getting ready for suspend mode and right after "everything" shutsdown it powers it self right back up
I've seen this happen with certain older desktops. Usually disabling some USB wake up options cure it.
THNX for the hint. I will check out if that is the problem.
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S3 standby is nice, I also use it often. but the problem with it is that memory leaks/fragmentation and similar things require reboot from time to time, probably.
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Doesn't windows do some caching of all the contents of the hard drives too during the boot in order to give the impression of instantly accessing directories etc?
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Matt_H wrote:
Or they could just improve the efficiency of the damn thing so that it actually boots in 8 seconds, like another certain operating system we know...
Talk about mixed up priorities. With the power of today's PC hardware, they should be ashamed of themselves that the OS is just as slow as ever, if not slower.
Its a an absolute disgrace: We have multi-core cpu hardware that benchmarks 100 times faster than a 68060 @ 50 mhz, RAM thats bigger than most Amiga hard drives, with data transfer speed both from ram and hard drive 100 times faster and yet it still takes as long as ever to start your computer!!
This has come about because Vista has been a massive failure due to the fact that the average computer user will not play the hardware upgrade game anymore just to get a new icon theme. MS knows they had better give people something worth their money or else people will be using their 3 gig ram XP systems for another 10 years. I had Vista business on a HP mininote and it was a resource hog and offered NOTHING that I couldn't do faster on XP. NOTHING.
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sorry double post.
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detz wrote:
Doesn't windows do some caching of all the contents of the hard drives too during the boot in order to give the impression of instantly accessing directories etc?
Yes its called superfetch and indexing and thats why when you get a new pc with Vista the hard drive is ALWAYS on, slowing everything down to a crawl as it builds up its index. This can take a week or two depending on how often you turn it on. And it never really stops: just indexing times aren't as long. AND it defrags your drive virtually all the time.
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I think it is a good idea but maybe but I hope it is not Microsoft's way of keeping other developers out of the operating system and not allowing competition. Does anyone know how much available memory will be allowed for "instant on"? If it is already filled with Microsoft's goodies then there won't be room to "but in" unless there is room.
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ah big deal...my 1200 030@50 boots up 100% ready in less than 7 seconds :-D
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Wow, they recognized that Windows boot time is a complete cr*p and now making it decent is a totally new feature.
They could sell refrigerators to eskimos and make some of them scream their lives are so much better now...
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It gets warm in Alaska in the summer,at least warm enough for food to spoil;so Eskimos do have refrigerators.(And pickup trucks,rifles,TVs,computers,ATVs,booze,politics,.....)
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you can speed that up even further. change your startup-sequence to this
setpatch
loadwb
:-D
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recidivist wrote:
It gets warm in Alaska in the summer,at least warm enough for food to spoil;so Eskimos do have refrigerators.(And pickup trucks,rifles,TVs,computers,ATVs,booze,politics,.....)
I wasn't intending to upset anyone from Alaska, sorry for that :-?
Ok, change it to "They could sell heaters to people in Amazonas and make some of them scream their lives are so much better now......"
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Why is RAM still volatile???
If RAM held data when the power's off, talk about boot times would be a thing of the past.
C'mon fast, DRAM-like NVRAM!
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Hi,
I was reading a while ago about hard drives to have a mem chip in them to allow fast boot up times (having opreating system on chip).This way system would boot up fast and be harder for hackers to take control of a computer.
Just my 2cents
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>by jlmjr1957 on 2008/10/17 11:35:10
>My TI 99-4/A would boot into a game or app in about 1/2 >second after turning it on.
Yeah, that's the same for many of the earlier machines like Atari 800, Atari XEGS, C64, etc.
>Of course it could take a while to load from a disk it you needed something that had been saved. Or even worse, trying to get something off of a cassette tape.
Nah, nowadays with disk and cassette simulators available for many 8-bit machines, you can read the data almost instantaneously. Even on an Atari 800 with a cassette simulator, I can easily read 6Kbytes/second. Now given, that most Atari 800 games/apps are <16KB. That's less than 3 seconds of load time for any application.
>I wonder why they can't have the basics of the OS load from a rom or flash card. That way you can log in to the system and get started while waiting for non-essential stuff to load.
One good reason for putting in ROM is that because they keep updating stuff and fixing bugs in the OS and in drivers. It's easier and more standard to update the hard drive than the re-program ROMs and BIOSes.
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>by adolescent on 2008/10/17 12:40:12
>Why is booting the OS a benchmark for the speed of the OS? >XP and Vista cold boot in <30 seconds. Not really huge >amounts of time. With stand-by and hibernation it's much >quicker.
That's before you surfed the internet and installed the various printer drivers, monitor drivers, AOL messenger, SKYPE drivers and other drivers that you don't need, but someone thought "what the heck, there's 2GB RAM."
I installed Windows 3.1 in a 1Ghz machine, and it boots up in less than 8 seconds. It just doesn't have drivers for all the new hardware so I had to use standard VGA, Sound Blaster compatibility mode, etc.