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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: vk3heg on October 07, 2008, 09:45:32 AM
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I require the services of a 68040 cpu at 40Mhz, and the same speed Crystal Oscillator.
Wanting to upgrade my Warp Engine 4028!
Anyone got one laying around sucking up free electrons?
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@vk3heg
IIRC Vesalia had some fast 040s for sale.
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i just clocked up my warp engine to 40Mhz just swapping the crystal without changing the cpu. yeah yeah i know, naughty me. :roll: but i had a massive heatsink and fan on there with thermal paste.
ran fine rendering for days and days... :-D
as ever, your mileage may vary, and i take no responsability for any damage caused etc etc. :lol:
--edit--
iirc, warpengines used 25Mhz 040's and clocked them up to 28Mhz, as i seem to remember them doing a deal where you could buy just the board and swap in the CPU off your A3640 card....
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I have both. Not sure about the warp engine, but for the 040 - you usually need an 80mhz crystal for 40mhz operation. for $65+ ship its yours...
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joekster wrote:
I have both. Not sure about the warp engine, but for the 040 - you usually need an 80mhz crystal for 40mhz operation. for $65+ ship its yours...
$65 for a crystal ?!?! yer freakin nuts! unless it's the crystal and the cpu...
80Mhz Crystal Oscillator (8-pin DIL) product code: CRYOSC002 at amigakit
(http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=168)
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crystal and CPU. Who do you think I am, doomy?
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you usually need an 80mhz crystal for 40mhz operation.
Not for a WarpEngine, unless you want to try to run the CPU at 80 MHz.
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I have warp engine crystals gathering dust here (had to buy bulk when I upgraded mine.) I can send you 5 crystals just for postage (I'm in japan though)
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If you can find an MC68040RC40A with a mask of L88M then it will run almost cold at 40MHz (compared to the original ones which could melt diamond at 25MHz)
The history of the 68040:(backed up with Motorola / Freescale data)
*In 1989 it went into production as the XC68040RCxxyy originally a 0.8um masks (D43B, D50D, D98D, E31F) part. These run exceptionally hot even at 25MHz and need heatsinks all the time.
*In 1995 (http://www.freescale.com/files/shared/doc/pcn/PCNR00274.html) the 68040 qualified to mc status. It was shrunk to a 0.65um mask (E42k) these parts run hot at 25MHz but dont need heatsinks, famous in MAC circles for overclocking. There are some XC 0.65um parts from 1992-95 with the mask E26A but I am unsure as to their heat dissapation or overclockability.
*In 2000 (http://www.freescale.com/files/shared/doc/pcn/PCN5606.txt) the 68040 was shrunk to a 0.57um mask (K63H) these run a lot cooler that all previous parts and again do not need heatsinks at 25MHz+.
*Finally (http://www.freescale.com/files/shared/doc/pcn/PCN8219.htm) in 2002 the last MC68040RCxxA mask was made (L88M) production was moved back to MOS11 FAB, again at 0.57um, with increased reliability (which should favour overclocking even more).
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doctorq wrote:
you usually need an 80mhz crystal for 40mhz operation.
Not for a WarpEngine, unless you want to try to run the CPU at 80 MHz.
A 40Mhz Warp Engine uses an 80Mhz Crystal. ;-)
@ alexh
Did you ever find a 40Mhz 040? I should have a redundant one soon if the price is right! ;-)
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Kin-Hell wrote:
A 40Mhz Warp Engine uses an 80Mhz Crystal. ;-)
Check again.
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alexh wrote:
If you can find an MC68040RC40A with a mask of L88M then it will run almost cold at 40MHz (compared to the original ones which could melt diamond at 25MHz)
The history of the 68040:(backed up with Motorola / Freescale data)
In 1989 it went into production as the XC68040RCxxyy originally a 0.8um masks (D43B, D50D, D98D, E31F) part. These run exceptionally hot even at 25MHz and need heatsinks all the time.
In 1995 the 68040 qualified to mc status. It was shrunk to a 0.65um mask (E42k) these parts run hot at 25MHz but dont need heatsinks, famous in MAC circles for overclocking. There are some XC 0.65um parts from 1992-95 with the mask E26A but I am unsure as to their heat dissapation or overclockability.
In 2000 the 68040 was shrunk to a 0.57um mask (K63H) these run a lot cooler that all previous parts and again do not need heatsinks at 25MHz+.
Finally in 2002 the last MC68040RCxxA mask was made (L88M) production was moved back to MOS11 FAB, again at 0.57um, with increased reliability (which should favour overclocking even more).
there also the MC68040V which is 3.3v i dont know how hot it run.
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doctorq wrote:
Kin-Hell wrote:
A 40Mhz Warp Engine uses an 80Mhz Crystal. ;-)
Check again.
I did, ....& guess what!?
...My fooker is 80Mhz! :roll:
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@Kin-Hell
You must have a special edition then. All pictures on the BBoAH as well as amiga.resource.cx has either a 28, 33 or 40 Mhz crystal for the CPU, and both of mine has either a 28 MHz (28.5363 to be precicesly) or a 40 MHz.
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Cyberstorm MKIII uses 80Mhz for 40Mhz 040. Isn't it something to do with a divide-by-two counter on the chip?
I ain't sure & really hope I aint digging a hole here!? :-?
*edit*
brb.....
Crap! I owe an apology! Please excuse my tardiness! :oops:
You're quite right, it is 40Mhz. I've had my hands on CSPPC', MKIII' & Warp Engine borads in the last 60 hours!
Aside from the grief at seeing all this stuff go, I guess i'm getting my "p's" & "Q's" arse about farce!
Humble Apologies!....... 8-)
*edit again*
CSMKIII is 80Mhz for a 40Mhz 040. Definately! ;-)
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countzero wrote:
I have warp engine crystals gathering dust here (had to buy bulk when I upgraded mine.) I can send you 5 crystals just for postage (I'm in japan though)
I only need one !-)
:-D
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joekster wrote:
I have both. Not sure about the warp engine, but for the 040 - you usually need an 80mhz crystal for 40mhz operation. for $65+ ship its yours...
The warpengine uses two crystal's.. One for the cpu and the other for other functions.
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darksun9210 wrote:
i just clocked up my warp engine to 40Mhz just swapping the crystal without changing the cpu. yeah yeah i know, naughty me.
Could that be why I read in another thread that yours has died?
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no i don't think so. i sold mine (as a 28Mhz clocked to 40Mhz) with AMD K6-2 heatsink and fan. about 8-9 years ago :-)
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Kin-Hell wrote:
@ alexh
Did you ever find a 40Mhz 040? I should have a redundant one soon if the price is right! ;-)
I only wanted a L88M variant. I have other hotter ones.
delshay wrote:
there also the MC68040V which is 3.3v i dont know how hot it run.
AFAIK the 68040V cannot be used with Amiga's because the chips it talks to reply at 5v.
Kin-Hell wrote:
Cyberstorm MKIII uses 80Mhz for 40Mhz 040. Isn't it something to do with a divide-by-two counter on the chip?
You're not dreaming I've read something like that too, but it must be a feature of either Phase5 boards, or WarpEngine boards because they are uniquely different WRT to this.
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same as the cyberstormII/040, iirc had an 80Mhz crystal on there.
just like the BlizzardPPC040 has a 50Mhz clock crystal for a 25Mhz 040.
something to do with the crystal feeding a phase locked loop (PLL) circuit inside the CPU to generate the CPU/Bus timing.
i also recall, but may be incorrect, that the internal frequency of an 040 is double the external bus speed. kinda like a 486DX2. which would also explain why Mac Quadra's of the 040 era were marketed as 25/50, 33/66, and eventually 40/80 cpu speed denominators?
my memory is hazy as it was a good few years since i had my warpengine and was playing about with variable frequency oscilators. so ignore me if i'm talking out my rectum :lol:
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CSMKIII is 80Mhz for a 40Mhz 040. Definately! ;-)
No doubt about it, and so does the MKII, but this was about the WarpEngine :-)
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doctorq wrote:
CSMKIII is 80Mhz for a 40Mhz 040. Definately! ;-)
No doubt about it, and so does the MKII, but this was about the WarpEngine :-)
I know doctorq & I apologise for my tardiness with confusion on my part. Quite lame really. Sorry! 8-)
@ alexh
alexh wrote:
Kin-Hell wrote:
@ alexh
Did you ever find a 40Mhz 040? I should have a redundant one soon if the price is right! ;-)
I only wanted a L88M variant. I have other hotter ones.
delshay wrote:
there also the MC68040V which is 3.3v i dont know how hot it run.
AFAIK the 68040V cannot be used with Amiga's because the chips it talks to reply at 5v.
Kin-Hell wrote:
Cyberstorm MKIII uses 80Mhz for 40Mhz 040. Isn't it something to do with a divide-by-two counter on the chip?
You're not dreaming I've read something like that too, but it must be a feature of either Phase5 boards, or WarpEngine boards because they are uniquely different WRT to this.
Yeah m8, the Phase5 board has a Cap in the CPU socket that you set to either 3.3v or 5v.
I'm guessing one of these 68040V Chips would work fine with the Phase5 board set for the 3.3v required for an 060?
I'd be guessing the Phase5 boards allow the 040 to use it's on-board divide by two counter. Me wonders what a board like this would make of the version V 040 & could you see 50Mhz?
Warp Engine boards usiing 60ns RAM run rings around 060's on the Desktop - even if the 060 uses 60ns RAM. The Warp engine is blazingly fast. ;-)
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AFAIK 060 is 3.3v core but 5v I/O. Making it perfect for Amiga but crap for FPGA.
The 68SEC000 (used on minimig) is 3.3v everything making it perfect for FPGA.
I *think* would depend on whether the 040V is half and half (like the 060) or full 3.3 (like the SEC) as to whether it would be compatible.
But I am not 100% sure about this (otherwise why is there no 060 MiniMig by Illuwater?)
A WarpEngine 040@40 is faster than an 060@50? I think not. (was that a joke? If so I didnt get it)
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i also recall, but may be incorrect, that the internal frequency of an 040 is double the external bus speed.
This is exactly correct. The marketed rating of an '040 refers to its bus speed, internal is double its external frequency. (The easily accessible jumper settings for the clk ratio is what makes something like an Apollo 1260 card super easy to overclock with a Rev 6 '060 - old FPM SIMMs generally won't operate at 80MHz, but 40 is no problem.)
From this (http://intranet.logiconline.org.ve/Techinfo/68040.Microprocessor.html) page:
The main internal units work at twice the clock speed of the bus interface unit. For instance, when processing most instructions internally, a 68040 clocked at 33 MHz effectively runs at 66 MHz.
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MC68040V should work on most 040 board you just have to add a regulator ( if needed ).
but you can get 3.3v from a modern power supply,some of you already have this.
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alexh wrote:
AFAIK 060 is 3.3v core but 5v I/O.
...but a CSPPC/CSMKIII card has two Capacitor settings within the socket. In one position, it supply's 5v & the other 3.3v
If the 060 requires 3.3 for operation, where would it draw its 5v power from when the card is set to supply 3.3v?
alexh wrote:
A WarpEngine 040@40 is faster than an 060@50? I think not. (was that a joke? If so I didnt get it)
Not in terms of MIPS or FLOPS. Just in terms of around the Desktop.
The Warp Engine needs to have 60ns RAM to run at it's fastest capability.
An 060 using 60ns ram on say a CSPPC or CSMKIII card with SCSI III drive is not as snappy on the desktop as a Warp Engine using 60ns Ram on a SCSI II drive.
Go figure? :-?
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My Warpengine @40MHz has a 40MHz crystal.
Interestingly, it does not have a heatsink fitted, only a small fan with some of that ceramic paste holding it on. I got it this way and have never had any problems with crashing even in the cramped A4000D case. Should I put a small heat sink between the fan and the chip?
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Kin-Hell wrote:
...but a CSPPC/CSMKIII card has two Capacitor settings within the socket.
They are not capacitor settings are they? I do not know what they are for sure. They perhaps somehow alter the output of the voltage regulator? I honestly do not know 100% how power electronics work (in general) let alone how the CSMKIII works.
Kin-Hell wrote:
In one position, it supply's 5v & the other 3.3v If the 060 requires 3.3 for operation, where would it draw its 5v power from when the card is set to supply 3.3v?
If it limits all the voltage inputs to all 68060 power pins then I would have to agree. But if it only affects one or two? I would have to read about 68060 more. But perhaps you are right? Which would be interesting.
However the signals coming FROM the Amiga will be 5v. So the 68060 inputs must be designed to accept 5v or they would break. (Or there must be additional electronics on all 060 boards)
Kin-Hell wrote:
alexh wrote:
A WarpEngine 040@40 is faster than an 060@50? I think not. (was that a joke? If so I didnt get it)
Not in terms of MIPS or FLOPS. Just in terms of around the Desktop.
It doesn't run faster but it does run faster? The mind boggles :-)
Kin-Hell wrote:
An 060 using 60ns ram on say a CSPPC or CSMKIII card with SCSI III drive is not as snappy on the desktop as a Warp Engine using 60ns Ram on a SCSI II drive.
How very strange. I suggest that some of the OS/desktop software you are using might use a feature of the 040 that is perhaps emulated in the 060? That would explain it. Or perhaps a bug in said software?
Interesting non the less.
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alexh wrote:
Kin-Hell wrote:
...but a CSPPC/CSMKIII card has two Capacitor settings within the socket.
They are not capacitor settings are they? I do not know what they are for sure. They perhaps somehow alter the output of the voltage regulator? I honestly do not know 100% how power electronics work (in general) let alone how the CSMKIII works.
A plain jumper, under the 68k chip http://members.iinet.net.au/~davem2/overclock/csppc.html
Kin-Hell wrote:
An 060 using 60ns ram on say a CSPPC or CSMKIII card with SCSI III drive is not as snappy on the desktop as a Warp Engine using 60ns Ram on a SCSI II drive.
How very strange. I suggest that some of the OS/desktop software you are using might use a feature of the 040 that is perhaps emulated in the 060? That would explain it. Or perhaps a bug in said software?
Interesting non the less.[/quote]
What about the Chip RAM speed of said cards?
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delshay wrote:
MC68040V should work on most 040 board you just have to add a regulator ( if needed ).
No. The 68040V pin-out is different too.
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zipper wrote:
What about the Chip RAM speed of said cards?
Can the speed at which accelerators access chip RAM be different? I would not have thought so.
If you were right, and KinHell is describing a card which doesn't have a gfx card, just AGA then that might explain it.
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As Dave Haynie could probably explain better, the chip ram and fast ram on the 32-bit Amigas was designed to interface with the 68030 chip cycles (which was the designated cpu at the time Dave was designing the A3000). Adding a 68040 or a 68060 in asynchronous mode via the fast slot changes this relationship. The A3640 for instance was notoriously slower at accessing the motherboard fastram on the a4000 (and A3000) due to this difference in cpu cycles and lack of burst mode capability. Phase5 iirc added special hardware onto all of their 040/060 boards to replicate in hardware the interface of the accelerator card with a 68030, at least for chip ram access. Thus, if you run an AIBB or similar check you'll find the Phase5 boards outperform other cards with respect to chip ram access speeds, which is key when talking about how fast the AGA chips are going to go. Other manufacturers (GVP, Macrosystem, etc.) didn't fully implement this or ignored it altogether, opting instead for the fastest accelerator ram-to-cpu speeds. Thus, they generally outperform the Phase5 boards on fastram (that is RAM physically on the accelerator) speeds, which helps more if you are talking about graphics cards or zorro card speeds rather than the AGA chips. Also, I believe GVP is the only company that really worked on cpu burst cycles to the motherboard. There is a jumper on the GVP4060 board which purports to allow burst cycles to the motherboard, but I'm not sure if this actually works. Dave or Greg Berlin (who designed the A3640) could explain this better, because the A3640 was compromised as a quick design to get a cheap 040 board ready for the A3000 and left out burst, 68030 async logic, etc.
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All very interesting stuff. :-)
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@Argus
Interesting, but benchmarks on Amiga Hardware Database show that the CSMKIII (& CSPPC) has better fast RAM performance than any other card.
The WarpEngine was not included in the test but it would have to be something special!
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adolescent wrote:
delshay wrote:
MC68040V should work on most 040 board you just have to add a regulator ( if needed ).
No. The 68040V pin-out is different too.
MC68040V was fitted to a Blizzard PPC this is a test processor only & will remain so but will play no part in my final projects.
it was used only when the Blizzard PPC was converted from 040 to 060 where socket was fitted & voltage changed was done & a MC68040V was fitted to check everything was ok.
it has a different pin count but as far as im am aware i did not find a problems & ran ok at 3.3v settings on the Blizzard PPC board.
a full test will now be done to see if its compatible with the Blizzard PPC but will check docs first.
will post here with results in a few days.
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This just got even more interesting! :-D
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@adolescent
being look at the docs on the MC68040V pinout.
it seems you are right i bought the card off EBAY with the above processor did not pay attension to v marking on the processor at first,just plug it into my A1200 when i recive it.
even when i changed the processor for another 040 processor the card still did not work and it suppose to be working.
ok im not going to have a go at the person who sold me the card because i found the fault & the card is working fine.
i wiil be going over docs in fine detail,did not think to go over the docs.
thanks Del
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As far as the popular A1200 040/060 cards, the Apollo had faster chipset access (approaching Blizzard 1230 performance under certain circumstances), but not by a large margin. Fastram performance may also be slightly faster than Phase5/DCE cards at the same memory clock. However, the Blizzard can generally handle a higher memory clock (1/1 cpu/memory at 66MHz+), potentially giving much better fastram performance, whereas the Apollo can barely handle a 50MHz memclock, even with excellent RAM. In my experience, anything above 50MHz and the memory speed must be halved.
By looking at the SysSpeed benchmarks for the big-box cards, it would seem Argus is 100% correct in regard to the Cyberstorms and chipset access (and the MKIII appears to have significantly improved fastram performance). BusTest shows marginally less favorable results, but I have no idea how accurate these benchmarks are at actually determining anything substantial. :shrug: Fun but meaningless, LOL.
I've read that the QuikPak/GVP 4060 take advantage of EDO RAM, and pwn the rest in terms of fastram performance. :)
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alexh wrote:
@Argus
Interesting, but benchmarks on Amiga Hardware Database show that the CSMKIII (& CSPPC) has better fast RAM performance than any other card.
The WarpEngine was not included in the test but it would have to be something special!
That's probably true, I was thinking of the comparison between the original Cyberstorms (MkI&II) with the GVP and Macrosystem boards. Phase5 introduced 64-bit interleaved Fastram with the CyberstormMkIII/PPC boards (that's why you need to install matched pairs of SIMMs on these two boards). The 64-bit memory design has to do with the PPC604 chip used in the CyberstormPPC iirc and that most likely explains the speed difference over the earlier generation boards in pure Fastram access. But for any of those who own the Phase5/DCE 2060, Cyberstorm MarkI/II, Blizzard 1260 or BlizzardPPC, you have a 32-bit memory interface with your 68060 and pure Fastram speeds are more than likely eclipsed by the GVP and Macrosystem designs...not that you'd really notice as the difference is nothing like the problem with the A3640 and m/b RAM. But AGA chipram speeds will always be faster with a Phase5 board, if that's important to you. I honestly don't know much about the Quickpak or Apollo boards; I've heard they have their own unique qualities, EDO RAM, etc. (which in the case of the Apollos can make them finicky about the SIMMs they'll work with).
One last thing, the GVP4060 definitely can't use EDO SIMMs, you need FPM modules...save yourself the heartache... :-)
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this device allows MC68040V to be plug into a 040 socket along with a MC68060.
http://www.emulation.com/catalog/off-the-shelf_solutions/production-test_adapters/upgrade_motorola/
just to add the MC68040V did boot fine on a Blizzard PPC with no problems im still looking at the docs.
i will try and findout if the above device needs to be config between 040V & 060.
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I benchmarked my Apollo 1240 40 MHZ with 32 mb edo ram using syspeed and AIBB years ago and got fast ram benchmarks that were faster than Cyberstorm 3 68060. No-one at the user group believed me until we ran the benchmarks on my mchine and on an A4000 CS 3 68060. My A1200 scored higher in the fast ram tests. I later read that Apollos had the fastest ram bus of any accelerator, but I can't remember where I read this.
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I wonder what is going on?
The SYSPEED fast RAM scores of A1240 on Amiga hardware database are (at best) 1/2 that of CSMKIII
6.95/26.24 vs 26.97/46.56
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@Argus
DOH! It's just the QuikPak that utiizes EDO, then? Seems like a nice card. Do you know if any of them actually had SCSI onboard?
@AlexH
Well, one thing to keep in mind is the Apollo 1240 has a slower memory clock, and I'm pretty sure the MKIII should be performing better anyway. Compare it to the MKII 040/40 though, and the scores are much closer. Also, note the difference between the two Apollo 1240 cards, obviously hw and sw setup makes a difference.
You can take a look at this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33121) thread for some bustest results from my Apollo card, an MKIII and a few others (again keeping in mind that my memclock is set to 1/2 CPU speed). There's an overclocked Apollo 4060 card in there (100MHz CPU, 50MHz memory) that returned some impressive numbers.
And as far as chipset performance with the A1200 cards, show me a Blizzard that can hit 5 mb/sec in the SysInfo drive benchmark, with an IDE-Fix Express and a memory clock of only 40 MHz. Won't happen. :-P Actually, it would be pretty interesting if we could get someone to run bustest on their Blizzard 1260 card and post it to the thread. Overclocked, the Blizzard should maintain an edge in fastram performance, while the Apollo should return better "chip" numbers.
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@ Thread:
Can I have my thread back please!
I've received a couple of offers, just waiting to sort things out now.
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vk3heg wrote:
@ Thread:
Can I have my thread back please!
I've received a couple of offers, just waiting to sort things out now.
you can have your thread back soon.
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@delshay
Interesting. Maybe 040V is compatible with 060 pins then (and 3.3V) but not old 040 only socket? The extra pins are to control the speed changes of the processor, but there are also a couple missing/changed signals according to the docs. (Again, maybe these are also missing/changed on the 060.)
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adolescent wrote:
@delshay
Interesting. Maybe 040V is compatible with 060 pins then (and 3.3V) but not old 040 only socket? The extra pins are to control the speed changes of the processor, but there are also a couple missing/changed signals according to the docs. (Again, maybe these are also missing/changed on the 060.)
thanks again as i overlooked the pinout of the processor,im still looking if there could be a problem with this type of processor.
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vk3heg wrote:
@ Thread:
Can I have my thread back please!
I've received a couple of offers, just waiting to sort things out now.
Gah mate, ur right! :oops:
Any Chance one of you Fine Moderators can hack this thread up a bit & re-finger it or summat?
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to find the answers to the MC68040V this thread will have to stay open.
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I wasn't suggesting closing it. Just handing the thread back to the Originator! :roll:
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click on processor then MC68040V
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/
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Use the new URL where possible.
http://www.bboah.com
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Straight into English:
http://www.bboah.com/index_e.html
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Straight into the CPU:
Linky Poo (http://www.bboah.com/cgi-bin/showhardware_en.cgi?HARDID=1478)
:-P
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iv check the processor again its marked MC68040V in white so whats inside i dont know but it does work at 3.3v with 040 settings on the Blizzard PPC.
i also like to add here that my Blizzard PPC has set a *new* top end benchmark for classic amigas.
68k set with 83.66Mhz osc ( new speed record ) BETA
603e set with 75Mhz osc ( new speed record ) BETA
note theres still problems that needs fixing.