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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Johan Samuelsson on September 29, 2008, 07:35:43 PM

Title: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: Johan Samuelsson on September 29, 2008, 07:35:43 PM
Here's my vision/dream.

Imagine having the mini-minimig inside an A500 mouse.
The mouse chord carries the image to the TV.
The keyboard is attached wirelessly.

It comes bundled with DPaintIII/Asm-One/PT.

Oh boy.

How does your Mini-Minimig look?
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: motorollin on September 29, 2008, 07:44:48 PM
It has AGA, an 060, and is embedded in my brain.

--
moto
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: CD32Freak on September 29, 2008, 07:47:52 PM
Here is what the mini Minimig looks like:
http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/mini-minimig/mini-minimig.htm
:-D  ;-)
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: yssing on September 29, 2008, 08:51:45 PM
That's a pretty cool design you got there :)
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: RedskullDC on September 30, 2008, 10:28:45 AM
Hi CD32Freak,
Quote

CD32Freak wrote:
Here is what the mini Minimig looks like:
http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/mini-minimig/mini-minimig.htm
:-D  ;-)


Looks pretty cool  :-)

A bigger FPGA might be an advantage for expansion later on (XC31000 for example).

Cheers,
Red
Title: /
Post by: Lorraine on September 30, 2008, 01:03:16 PM
/
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: KThunder on September 30, 2008, 08:15:49 PM
wait i thought minimig was about finally not dreaming for a while

i want a pda/cell phone minimig :-D
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: Illuwatar on September 30, 2008, 09:31:28 PM
Quote

RedskullDC wrote:
Hi CD32Freak,
Quote

CD32Freak wrote:
Here is what the mini Minimig looks like:
http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/mini-minimig/mini-minimig.htm
:-D  ;-)


Looks pretty cool  :-)

A bigger FPGA might be an advantage for expansion later on (XC31000 for example).

Cheers,
Red

If You find a way for homebrewers to mount a BGA to the PCB in a cheap and simple way that could be performed at home, I will be more than happy to design the board...

As it is now, the largest Xilinx FGPA in a hand-solderable package is 500k gates. Any larger uses BGA.
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: freqmax on September 30, 2008, 10:54:41 PM
OR one uses an existing development board and make an external board with all the specifics like flashholder, serial, vga etc..

BGA->SMD can be accomplished by making a board using some chinese manufacturers that does assembly.
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: little on October 01, 2008, 12:16:28 AM
Quote

CD32Freak wrote:
Here is what the mini Minimig looks like:
http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/mini-minimig/mini-minimig.htm

I do not ask for much:

1) More RAM. Why all minimig implementations so far have only 2 MB in RAM? It would be a lot better to have 16! I know the amiga would use 12 MB at most (2 chip ram + 9.5 fast ram + 512 kb rom) but the extra ram may be used by other hardware implementations (like arcade games).

2) HDMI out. It is digital, it should not be hard to implement and would allow conection will new HDTV tvs.

3) Hard disk file (HDF) support.
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: FrenchShark on October 01, 2008, 04:15:53 AM
Quote

Illuwatar wrote:
Quote

RedskullDC wrote:

A bigger FPGA might be an advantage for expansion later on (XC3S1000 for example).

Cheers,
Red

If You find a way for homebrewers to mount a BGA to the PCB in a cheap and simple way that could be performed at home, I will be more than happy to design the board...

As it is now, the largest Xilinx FGPA in a hand-solderable package is 500k gates. Any larger uses BGA.


We should move to Altera FPGAs. The Cyclone III chips with QFP-240 package have pretty decent sizes. I use a 16k LEs one (the smallest available) which is equivalent to a XC3S1000. There are enough gates to put a 68000 inside and enough I/Os to have Audio, 30-bit VGA, 8MB SRAM, 2 x PS2, IDE and 2 joystick ports and I still have 10 I/Os available. Moreover, if you use the serializer trick (like on the AGA Amigas) for the joystick ports, you can save 5 more I/Os.

Regards,

Frederic
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: freqmax on October 01, 2008, 04:32:28 AM
And Altera tools are M$-win32 only, unless you will sell your first born..

You could have a look at Actel FPGA.
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: Illuwatar on October 01, 2008, 07:30:26 AM
Quote

FrenchShark wrote:
Quote

Illuwatar wrote:
Quote

RedskullDC wrote:

A bigger FPGA might be an advantage for expansion later on (XC3S1000 for example).

Cheers,
Red

If You find a way for homebrewers to mount a BGA to the PCB in a cheap and simple way that could be performed at home, I will be more than happy to design the board...

As it is now, the largest Xilinx FGPA in a hand-solderable package is 500k gates. Any larger uses BGA.


We should move to Altera FPGAs. The Cyclone III chips with QFP-240 package have pretty decent sizes. I use a 16k LEs one (the smallest available) which is equivalent to a XC3S1000. There are enough gates to put a 68000 inside and enough I/Os to have Audio, 30-bit VGA, 8MB SRAM, 2 x PS2, IDE and 2 joystick ports and I still have 10 I/Os available. Moreover, if you use the serializer trick (like on the AGA Amigas) for the joystick ports, you can save 5 more I/Os.

Regards,

Frederic

Thank You for the tip. I could look into that Altera chip. For me, it doesn't matter what is written on the FPGA as long as the code could be ported. Regarding IDE - isn't that what the PIC should do (emulate harddisk-files from UAE)? And for AGA, 24-bit VGA should be enough? Finally, who are willing to take the task of implementing AGA into the FPGA? And if we are into it - going for AGA (A1200) would require a swap of CPU, from the 68000 to a full 32-bit one... (and there we lost the "Mini" in this thing).

The idea of using a development board is fine for developing and testing, but for a final solution, it is not the best option.
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: RedskullDC on October 01, 2008, 08:53:41 AM
Hi Illuwatar, FrenchShark et al.
Quote

Illuwatar wrote:
If You find a way for homebrewers to mount a BGA to the PCB in a cheap and simple way that could be performed at home, I will be more than happy to design the board...

As it is now, the largest Xilinx FGPA in a hand-solderable package is 500k gates. Any larger uses BGA.


Good point, most people won't be confident usen a toaster/re-flow oven at home  :-(

If you don't mind having a 2-tier board, something like this:
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/moelbryn/darnaw1.html
could be used.
They sell the PGA Sockets to match.
PGA socket could be mounted on the underside of a mini-mig specific adapter board which could plug onto the top of the darnaw board.

Avnet also do a *VERY* small virtex4 mini-module, which could be similarly employed.

Quote

Thank You for the tip. I could look into that Altera chip. For me, it doesn't matter what is written on the FPGA as long as the code could be ported. Regarding IDE - isn't that what the PIC should do (emulate harddisk-files from UAE)? And for AGA, 24-bit VGA should be enough? Finally, who are willing to take the task of implementing AGA into the FPGA? And if we are into it - going for AGA (A1200) would require a swap of CPU, from the 68000 to a full 32-bit one... (and there we lost the "Mini" in this thing).

The idea of using a development board is fine for developing and testing, but for a final solution, it is not the best option.


24bits is correct for AGA, 8bits/per colour = 16.7M colour palette.

Prefer the Altera tools myself also.
Xilinx still don't have X64 support for their EDK software, plus I get sick of downloading 1Gb+ service packs every couple of weeks for their ISE :getmad:

Having said that, I am currently tinkering with porting the minimigtg68 to the Digilent Nexys2-1200 board.
Have modded the board for 12bit colour, few pics can be seen at:
http://gamesource.groups.yahoo.com/group/minimigtg68/

Really like what you are doing with the PCB's anyway   ;-)

Cheers,
Red



Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: downix on October 01, 2008, 03:19:09 PM
Not that dissimilar to my own design, save I have a 2.5" IDE connector on the mobo.
Title: /
Post by: Lorraine on October 01, 2008, 03:40:13 PM
/
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: persia on October 01, 2008, 04:18:57 PM
Why would people want an hard drive on a mini-mig?  A 32 GB SD card would hold everything you could possibly want and at class six would be much faster...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/SimiChick420/Herb/bong-1.gif)
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: downix on October 01, 2008, 08:41:43 PM
Quote

Lorraine wrote:
Quote

downix wrote:
Not that dissimilar to my own design, save I have a 2.5" IDE connector on the mobo.


Have you got a Laptop drive instead of flash, or is it used for something else?

Still have my old A1200 hard drive actually.
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: asymetrix on October 07, 2008, 07:11:07 AM

I looked in youTube for reflow toaster and bga rework.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0OIMmQkAuDQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pxKN4UAXg

The method they use is either a hot air station or
use T962 Infrared SMD & BGA IC Automatic Reflow Oven from http://stores.ebay.co.uk/ACCUNI-EXPRESS

Which method is best ?

I think we should setup a bounty for a REFLOW station for Amiga projects :)
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: persia on October 07, 2008, 02:44:20 PM
An "Amiga in a Joystick" would be neat.

(http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/pcheers1.gif)
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: alexh on October 07, 2008, 03:11:08 PM
Quote

FrenchShark wrote:
We should move to Altera FPGAs.

Not used them for a while (3 years) but the Altera FPGA tools always sucked ass. The Xilinx ones being based on Synopsys were always better. Things changed recently?

Start using complex generate statements, non integer generics, arrays of pointers of enumerated types etc. and Altera tools blew up.

But if that is the largest Xilinx QFP then I guess to keep it home-brew capable then a switch might be inevitable.
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: freqmax on October 07, 2008, 04:38:03 PM
alexh:
How is Actel tools (libero?) in regards to complex statements?

One could also skip the onboard MCU and replace it with another XC3S500E FPGA + eeprom. That way fpga0 can boot from eeprom, and load fpga1 with flashmemory files. And then fpga1 can reset and load fpga0 with next set of files from flashmemory.

That way we get larger FPGA grid, and rid of one chip. Possible the m68k can be softcore aswell this way.

Btw..
"Synopsys and Microsoft Work Together to Improve Electronic Design Productivity" (abandon all hope ;) )
http://www.ng2000.com/fw.php?tp=electronic-design
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: FrenchShark on October 08, 2008, 12:35:38 AM
Quote

freqmax wrote:
One could also skip the onboard MCU and replace it with another XC3S500E FPGA + eeprom. That way fpga0 can boot from eeprom, and load fpga1 with flashmemory files. And then fpga1 can reset and load fpga0 with next set of files from flashmemory.



Altera FPGAs have chipselect pins for configuration, with some extra I/Os on the PIC, you can get them configured one after another.
The problem with multi-FPGA design is that you need a communication bus between them that consumes I/Os...
The best solution I have found so far is to put a FlexBus bus (see the Coldfire MC548x). It consumes "only" 44 I/Os (28 if we use DDR on some signals).

With a 3-FPGA design (2 x EP3C16Q240 + 1 x EP3C10E144), you have enough I/Os to implement an Amiga AGA clone with all the legacy peripherals plus USB (ULPI interface) and Ethernet (MII interface).
It is quite costly : ~$80 for the FPGAs. Anyway, a medium sized BGA FPGA is not cheap either.

Regards,

Frederic
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: FrenchShark on October 08, 2008, 12:49:30 AM
Quote

alexh wrote:
Quote

FrenchShark wrote:
We should move to Altera FPGAs.

Not used them for a while (3 years) but the Altera FPGA tools always sucked ass. The Xilinx ones being based on Synopsys were always better. Things changed recently?

Start using complex generate statements, non integer generics, arrays of pointers of enumerated types etc. and Altera tools blew up.

I am not a big VHDL guru. I do not use variables so much, I use a little bit of generate statements to reduce VHDL source size, I also use type definition for state machines and arrays. I have never used pointers in VHDL (what kind of crazy design did you work on ?:-o)

I have found few bugs on Altera tools. I was able to work around them so far.
I remember that in 2005, Quartus II was quite unstable. Now, it is a lot better.

Regards,

Frederic
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: freqmax on October 08, 2008, 01:35:51 AM
An fpga-fpga internal expansion bus serialisation of 8 MHz, 16 bit data, 24 bit address gives a 3072 Mbps datarate. The XC3S500E manages 500 Mbps LVDS. So it doesn't need that many I/O ports.
And there's proberbly room for optimisations.

And yes dual fpga will consume I/O, but will also gain a lot more I/O than lost.

You can load all FPGAs from a single eeprom but the catch is that changing core will be a pain for non developers. That's why my preference for an flashmemory load.

Using MS-win kills the possibility for efficient remote console. Requires local harddisc. And gives the headache of virus etc..
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: FrenchShark on October 09, 2008, 12:17:24 AM
Quote

freqmax wrote:
An fpga-fpga internal expansion bus serialisation of 8 MHz, 16 bit data, 24 bit address gives a 3072 Mbps datarate. The XC3S500E manages 500 Mbps LVDS. So it doesn't need that many I/O ports.
And there's proberbly room for optimisations.

If I put a FlexBus is to make it run at 57 MHz or 114 MHz :-D

Quote

And yes dual fpga will consume I/O, but will also gain a lot more I/O than lost.

Agree, in this case, one Cyclone III has 160 I/Os, two will have 232 I/Os, maybe 264 I/Os if I use DDR.

Quote

You can load all FPGAs from a single eeprom but the catch is that changing core will be a pain for non developers. That's why my preference for an flashmemory load.

Using MS-win kills the possibility for efficient remote console. Requires local harddisc. And gives the headache of virus etc..

The PIC solution is kind of neat but little bit slow. I would prefer putting a SX-28/48 or even a Propeller.
For developers, the best is still JTAG : immediate loading and easy debugging.

Regards,

Frederic
Title: Re: let's dream about the mini-minimig for a bit...
Post by: freqmax on October 09, 2008, 01:19:07 AM
I defenitly agree on JTAG for development. Still the MCU function is mostly auxillary support so it should be kept at a low cost.
Also in a dual FPGA solution one could implement a flashmemory loader. And this could perform more or less at the very limit of physical components unlike any CPU.