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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: ACE on August 26, 2003, 07:40:05 PM
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Err, I konw this probably isn't the BEST place in the world to ask this, but you guys and girls are so friendly and helpful, so here goes...
I'm going to be recieving a shinny new computer form a rather well known brand. It will have Windows XP pre-installed (OEM) which I presume will mean it has no disc with it. Before I'm linched I better explain I need Windows to play games on...sorry I mean, because of work :-D .
I've actually resisted getting a PC but now I really have to :-( . I'm not computer illiterate, I've used Windows from 3.11 (but not XP yet), Unix, Linux, Amiga O/S etc. but Windows XP has got me worried, if I do manage to completly destroy the installation how do I get it back? I've been looking around and the Windows Backup program isn't in the standard install only on the disc. I know XP has 'repair' options, but I'd rather have a CD-R and install floppy with a basic install on which I can return to if needed. i.e. when I make the thing dual boot and I lose the whole hard-drive by repartitioning, etc!
(The back ground to this is that I got a great deal on the computer bundle but the sales person on the other end of the phone tried to sell me a reinstallation package for £100 !!!! I almost laughed at him, and explained that I wouldn't need it as I made regular backups.)
So as to turn this into a discussion, this sort of practice seems ridiculous to me, Microsoft are so concerned with people illegally copying their O/S that they make it impossible for the average user to have peace of mind. The stupid thing is that I could have got hold of a bare bones system and put an illegal copy of XP Pro on it. Why make it easier for someone to copy their program than actually buy it legally? I hope a Pegasos hack of Amiga O/S 4.0 dosen't do the same! (By the way I want O/S 4 for pegasos...could somebody please help me to put these worms back in the can :-) .
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I use Norton Ghost 2003
(makes images of Partitions and whole drives)
NTFS or FAT
another product is Powerquest DriveImage
I'd recommend GHOST
it's your choice :-)
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You can make a image of Windows XP with Norton Ghost or Drive Image. The newest version of Drive Image can burn the image on CD immediately.
If you have a spare drive or a partition, you can put it there.
But you could better ask them an original OEM Windows XP version or a recovery CD, because you paid for a Windows XP license.
You do not have to boot from floppy. Most new motherboards let you boot from CD.
It is not very difficult to install Windows.
If you are experimenting with your harddisk, always backup your important data. They are found in the directory Documents and settings.
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Like Duesi said, try ghost first... Easy to use and powerfull... You can even use it over a network to get an image back on a PC.. Works great..
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Per duesi's post, I recommend Drive Image from PowerQuest - particularly the new version 7 of it. It can create an image of your partition or entire drive, even the one that you boot from, while it is in use. There is no need to boot to DOS with a startup disk in order to create the image. Doing it "online" also allows the image to be written to any device that the O.S. can write to (network, CD-R, CD-RW, USB hard drive, etc.) - not limited to specific devices or hardware that's directly connected to your machine or limited to the devices that the very small, limited boot floppy can support. It also comes with an emergency startup CD that you can boot from for use with restoring the image if you need to. I use it on my WinXP laptop, and it works great.
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I recommend Ghost 2003, easy to use and works perfectly every time and the backing up/restoring over my network is a breeze, backing up in dos is a advantage not a disadvantage as some people say.
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ACE wrote:
Windows XP pre-installed (OEM) which I presume will mean it has no disc with it.
There had better be a disc with it! You paid for that license.
I have owned Gateway's, HP's, Compaq's, and most recently a Dell. A "restore" disc was always provided. If they wan't more money for something you should get as a consequence of paying for a Windows license, I say stuff 'em and find a different company to buy from!
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There had better be a disc with it! You paid for that license.
Exactly - he owns the license, not the media ;-)
BTW a lot of computers with OEM installs seems to come with a "recovery partition" now - a smallish partition which has everything you need on (of course, it uses up space and won't help if your partition table decides to corrupt :roll:). IIRC, micro$oft actually specified that CDs weren't to be bundled, but I'm not sure.
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If you have a llicence/cd-key why not just download an iso of the net, you could get the corp version with no activation crap.
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Hi,
I got a Compaq laptop (mighty fine thing) wich has XP installed on it. With it is a restore cd, so I only backup my important files. The restore cd takes only a short time and then copy back the backup files and you set. You should have that kind of cd to. If not then I recommand (like others did) that once you have a basic installation make a copy from it with Norton Ghost. It will be the same as I describe about the restore cd.
Coder
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I've used BackupMyPC a couple of times to do a full backup and it's
worked well for me.
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Just remember to backup all files that Windows Update downloaded.
Otherwise, you`ll have to go through the hell (or as MS might call it, 'Security upgrade experience' ;-) )of having to download all those lovely XP security patches all over again..
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Hmm... I'd recommend going with the flow and using Norton (symantec, whatever) Ghost 2003.
It works well with NTFS and FAT32, and can resize the restore on the fly, in case you want to shift around partition sizes, or need to re-install the drive image to a different size hard drive.
It also has a very strong verify function, and I've never seen it create a bad image. Plus, with "Ghost Explorer" you can pull a file or two out of a previous backup image.
Whenever I go to format the Windows box and start over, I first make a ghost of it. That way, any files I forgot to back up, I have in my ghost, and can restore... Also, if for some reason (licensing, whatever) I need to restore the machine to a previous state, I could do that, as well... All from one compressed backup set. :-)
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I'd also recommend getting a copy of Tweak-XP to back up your product activation key..
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Personally, I would _NEVER_ pay for an operating system unless the installation media is included. If the whole package is a bargain I might settle with one of those recovery CDs - but what happens if you install new hardware and Windows asks you to "insert the Windows CD into your CD-ROM drive" to copy some DLLs not installed by default?
With Windows being as unstable as it is (viruses, trojans, spyware, registry breakdowns etc.) you shouldn't have to be without some way to reinstall your system.
Of course, the hard drive will come prepartitioned - probably as one huge C:\ - and if something blows up and you have to use the "repair" CD it will most likely wipe out all the contents of your drive.
By the way - if I own a Windows XP license but have no installation media, would it be illegal to use a home burned XP CD with my license key?
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Hmm. One more thing.
Is anyone else thinking that this whole license thing is blowing out of proportion? There's the OS3.9 license debacle, the Microsoft stuff about owning the right to use the product and not the product itself (funny how they even try to apply this to hardware, IE the X-Box), and of course the Unix vs. IBM & Linux thing.
I bet my Sony Discman includes a lot of patented stuff but if it was possible, I could install Linux on it and nobody would care. If I buy a copyrighted book, I can burn it or use the pages for taking notes using a big green marker pen. I could even cut out the little letters and words and use them to write a new book!
But with software... Hey, I'm lucky if I paid enough to let more than ten persons look at my homepage!
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Oh, how life is so much easier with one partition for just Windows, and another for apps and data.
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@mikeymike
That goes for any OS IMHO. Workbench: and Work: are two fine examples of good thinking :-)
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Oh, how life is so much easier with one partition for just Windows, and another for apps and data.
Neh...
1 x 60 Gb HD for windows
1 x 120 Gb HD for programs and data
1 x 200 Gb HD for backup and useless data (pictures and stuff)
That makes life ease with Windows :-D
Offcourse a DVD+/-RW helps as well ;-)
(I admit that the 60 GB is not only for Windows, amd the 120 GB is more used for data then programs, but one must learn to read during installations not just clicking [next][next][next][next][next][finish])...
And BTW, I still have over 65% HD space free should anybody wonder)
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Everyone else has been reccomending things,
so I reccomend you unplug the pc
and throw it out the window.
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Under no circumstances enable Automatic Updates, and make sure you format and re-install every 9 - 12 months, Windows never likes to clean up after itself. On my last note, always keep a CD backup of your most crucial data, twice now I have seen entire partitions wiped out after a Service Pack upgrade, Microshaft calls it an act of God, trust Microsoft to blame it on someone who can't speak for themself.
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Oh, how life is so much easier with one partition for just Windows, and another for apps and data.
This is one I just don't understand on Windows, though.
What good does having apps on a seperate drive do you? none. With having a registry, you can't restore the system partition without hosing the apps, so why bother trying to seperate them from the system? It's a useless convention.
I keep the data on a seperate partition many times, but I've been starting to get away from even that. Just put it all in a directory (like c:\data) and write yourself a logon script to back it up to another computer each time you log on. :-) Only takes a second to run an xcopy over the 100-base-T switch... Or, even better, gigabit. Then, burn the directory to a CD now and then for even more protection.
The theory works for Linux, too... Only use rsync instead of xcopy and just copy your whole home dir. ;-)
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@Ilwrath
I keep all data, games and demos on a separate partition. Most games don't write to the registry (at least not the ones I play), so at least my game characters and skill levels etc. will be around if I ever reinstall Windows.
Since I use Windows as a single-user OS I don't bother with exporting home directories and stuff.
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Under no circumstances enable Automatic Updates
Agreed. Disable the Background Intelligent Transfer Service also.
and make sure you format and re-install every 9 - 12 months
Hmm, that depends on how you use your computer. My parents' machine (NT4) is as responsive/fast as the day I finished installing it. On the flipside, my machine's Win2k install lasts a few months max as I'm always screwing around with Windows :-)
twice now I have seen entire partitions wiped out after a Service Pack upgrade,
I've never seen or heard of that problem before...
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twice now I have seen entire partitions wiped out after a Service Pack upgrade,
I've never seen or heard of that problem before...
Hmm... Never applied NT4 SP2 (not SP2a, but the original SP2) on an NTFS boot partition, have you? ;-)
But, really, most modern service packs break very few things, if your system is anywhere near standard.
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Windows XP SUCKS !!!!
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DoomMaster wrote:
Windows XP SUCKS !!!!
And have you actually USED it? I don't mean "sat down, played with the mouse for 5 minutes." I mean actually use it to do something productive? Or, are you just shouting an opinoin just because you don't like Microsoft?
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To N7VQM:
Yes I have used Windows XP. I own both versions, the Home Edition and the Professional Edition. THEY BOTH SUCK! I do have a really nice Pentium 4 PC that I custom built myself using nothing but high quality parts. I have discovered, along with many other experts in this industry, that Windows 98 Second Edition is the best and most reliable Windows for home use. Windows 2000 is the best and most reliable Windows for business. Many web servers will NOT allow you access if they know that you are using Windows XP, that's how bad it SUCKS! Just try to play Duke Nukem on the Kali game server with Windows XP. Those guys will tell you to get out, NO WINDOWS XP ALLOWED! Windows XP really does suck. I have never had as many problems with a Windows OS until I installed Windows XP. ALL of the really smart computer people KNOW that Windows XP sucks, they do not even waste their time trying to use it. :-o
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I used to use Ghost all the time (2000 version I think.) I used the windows rescue disk and built up a custom disk with the essentials plus ghost.
After that, I installed Windows and all essential drivers and made a ghost image of the drive. Finally, I burned the disk + image to a bootable cd. This way, if I did need to reinstall (which I did on a couple of occasions) I simply used the cd I created instead. Total time to reinstall using this method was roughly 3 minutes or so.
I haven't tried the newer versions of Ghost, but it being able to run in dos mode was a big plus for me.
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DoomMaster wrote:
To N7VQM:
IWindows 98 Second Edition is the best and most reliable Windows for home use.
Windows 98 is where it belongs: the scrap heap.
Many web servers will NOT allow you access if they know that you are using Windows XP, that's how bad it SUCKS!
This is ridiculous. I visited thousands of web sites and my wife thousands of others since I installed XP. Not a one have denied access because of XP. You'll have to point out a couple million sites to me before I see that as any indication of the quality of XP.
Just try to play Duke Nukem on the Kali game server with Windows XP. Those guys will tell you to get out, NO WINDOWS XP ALLOWED!
By what mechinism do other players learn what OS you're using?
ALL of the really smart computer people KNOW that Windows XP sucks, they do not even waste their time trying to use it.
The illogic here is large enough to drive an over-height, wide-load tractor-trailer through. For this statement to be true, you would have to have interviewed EVERY 'really smart computer person' in the world and have them all agree. I'd like to see you try that.
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@DoomMaster
Yeah right, why not post PROOF to back up those silly claims? i am interested in these magical websites and games servers what in your magical land stops people who use XP.
Anyway thanks for the laugh though its nice to see the "I hate Microsoft" amigans are still alive and going strong.
Duke Nukem on the Kali game server
Works fine with XP Home btw, must be your imagination running wild and also learn how to set up magical xp and duke nukem properly (LINK (http://www.kali.net/bbs/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=0;action=display;num=1051918344)).
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By the way - if I own a Windows XP license but have no installation media, would it be illegal to use a home burned XP CD with my license key?
As far as I know it's like this:
It's ok, since you have the license. The CD is just a carrier for the data.
You're still bound to the license agreement, so you don't get to install the OS on many computers unless you have a license for each. Even the key you enter into the installer isn't important per se, but the piece of paper in the retail box or the license sticker that's glued to the machine's case.
If someone has a link to a MS website that clarifies this (or opposes what I said), please post it.
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@Jope
I recently read a magazine article about creating your own patched XP CD (Win XP patched with SP1) and this of course required you to burn a new CD with XP and SP1 on it. They stated that it was perfectly legal (given that you have an XP license), but probably not supported by Microsoft.
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Carls,
Yes, totally true. Basically if you're able to create a CD that has an integrated SP, you shouldn't need to call MS for support..
MS also sells CDs that have the SP already integrated.. Anyway, if you need the MS support (wtf ?-) then you can just say you have XP with SP1 installed and not tell them that you integrated it yourself..
The SP release notes tell you how to integrate it and several sites tell you how to extract the boot.cat from the original CD and make the selfcompiled CD bootable.
Oh well, this is veering a bit too far from Amiganess .. perhaps we ought to continue this via pmail or email, if you have more to say.. :-)
Oh and re: the original subject, I use a DLT drive and MS Backup to backup WinXP (the windows dir and all the dirs where I have my own creations and installed sw), it's well under the 10GB that my DLTIII handles).. It lets you save the registry, so when your HD crashes, you just install a basic XP and then restore everything from tape and have a working system again, timewarped back to the point of your last backup!
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Hmm... Never applied NT4 SP2
Nope, I first touched NTx just after SP3 was released :-)
My main problem with MS service packs nowadays is how they re-enable stuff I've disabled, make IE icons re-appear on the desktop, things like that.
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@ DoomMaster's "Windows XP is the anti-christ" posts
Hmm, I think you'll need to back up your claims about services blocking WinXP. According to the stats for my website, WinXP is the most popular OS in use nowadays. I seriously doubt services will block it.
IMO there are a few sucky things about WinXP, so I stick with Win2k (not really out of choice, new mobo didn't support NT4), but nothing seriously bad. Service packs and WinXP don't seem to agree far more often nowadays, and I don't like Windows Product Activation, nor IM being part of the OS.
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re: WinXP licensing issues
If you've bought a legal license to use an OS, who cares how you install it, is my take on it. I wouldn't pay full attention to MS's take on things, as they believe that an OS is permanently tied to the hardware it was originally installed on, that you can't move a license from one machine to another, and allsorts of crazy things.
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Hi Ace,
I have just recentley bought a bigger HD, and used Power Quests, Drive Image, it did the trick with no probs.
Personally I Use WinXP pro with the NTFS and not the Fat32, and find it quite stable.
But then again someone out there will probably tell you different !.
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@Jope
I meant "they don't support it" as "they don't like it". I guess they would rather sell more copies of their own, patched CDs :-)
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Thanks to everyone for the helpful comments. Looks like i've got to spend more money on my PC! I haven't even recieved it yet.
So am I right in thinking that I can simply install somebody elses XP CD on my computer, if mine does go belly up? I own the licence after all!
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ACE wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the helpful comments. Looks like i've got to spend more money on my PC! I haven't even recieved it yet.
So am I right in thinking that I can simply install somebody elses XP CD on my computer, if mine does go belly up? I own the licence after all!
If you have a license key, yes. :-)
However, if it's an OEM license, the key might not work with your friend's XP CD .. Not sure if you're allowed to install a normal XP Pro if your license is OEM. (best to be paranoid with these things if you're running a business with the machine)
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I think this oddity of MS licensing is Win2k and later - there are retail license keys and OEM license keys, you need to use the respective install media otherwise the key won't work.
There are also differences between the retail and OEM versions sometimes, like SMB connections are limited to 10 concurrent with Win2k Server OEM without doing a few workarounds which (IIRC) break the license agreement :-)
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@mikeymíke
For €100 you'd think they could throw in a CD :-)
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Here is my solution:
As i have had loads of problems with XP crashing and destroying everyting, including some caused by hardware problems. I have put all of my documents on another disk, simulating my "My Documents" folder. This way all "important" data is saved in case of a crash!
Also I have cloned my boot partition(Partition expert, partition magic etc. will let you do this). An here comes the trick:
In your registry you can actually change the drive letter of a partition. In other words the drive letters of your partition are in the registry of the partition you booted with.
I have changed these so:
1. When I boot with my "main boot" drive it has the drive letter "C" and my "backup boot" has drive letter "D".
2. When I boot with my "backup boot" drive it has the drive letter "C" and my "main boot" has drive letter "D".
This way if anything happens to either of them, I can select to boot from the other one and fix the damaged one. Without spending painstaken hours swapping WinXP Recovery console disks.
This way I can also remove the disk with my backup boot on it, and keep it somewere safe.
This setup is ideal when you only have one PeeCee and you don't want to go knocking your neighbours door and ask him:
Can I attatch my HD to your IDE bus so I can fix it
It'll only take a minut!
Just to have to tell him 9 hours later:
:-o Ups!......well erhh i think i have to go now(You fcked up his HD too)!
Cheers!
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My main problem with MS service packs nowadays is how they re-enable stuff I've disabled, make IE icons re-appear on the desktop, things like that.
Egads, yes! And it's not just the service packs that do this. (See my previous rants about the Microsoft update treadmill and why I use RedHat Linux 9.) Hotfixes, and "critical updates" do this, as well. Hell, I've seen MS APPLICATIONS re-enable disabled services!! Basically, anytime you install ANYTHING that comes out of Redmond, you have to completly go through the 15-20 step routine of checking and verifying your locked-down system configuration. What a pain!
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By far the most irritating thing about services getting re-enabled on Windows without informing the user, is I find my IIS setup has been re-enabled when I specifically didn't want it to, so I have to set it to disabled (rather than manual), and so I get errors in the event log telling me I've been a naughty boy because I've disabled a service that Windows would really like to start.
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@Zolo
If I'm reading your suggestion correctly, this (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;236621) solution may prove more... ... ... Reliable?
@ACE [Edit: cut and pasted the wrong name]
I've used both Ghost and DriveImage. I persoanlly prefer DriveImage, primarily because it works from both DOS and Windows. Otherwise they both have pretty much the same feature set. But that's just my opinion.
I don't recall if you can get demo versions anymore (I've only used retail in recent years), but I'm sure there are plenty of sites with reviews and comparisons.
Regardless, they're both woth worth the ~$70 they cost...
Another option might be to invest in a decent ATA RAID controller. Like those from 3ware (http://www.3ware.com/). That is unless you have th cash for a real RAID solution, i.e. SCSI.