Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Beast96GT on September 01, 2008, 08:51:31 AM
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I posted this in a previous thread, but it got no reaction... and dammit, I want a reaction! :D
Here are just a few thoughts/ideas if the Amiga WERE to be redesigned, re-introduced hardware and software-wise:
1) The Amiga should be a graphical powerhouse. It's an old idea, but it's amazing how much attention is paid to the machine with the best graphics--Hell, it's how the Amiga really made a name for itself (among other things, of course).
Modern graphics cards are designed to be optimal for typical 32-bit floating point (matrices and such) math.
The Amiga graphics chips (preferably on a card) could optimize for real-time ray-tracing. It's not a fantasy by any means; it's already being done on the PC, but it's limited and requires massive hardware. The Amiga, if designed with the bottlenecks of doing this in mind, could possibly bring this market and exploit it as its own.
The Amiga graphics chips could optimize for Quaternions which are much better than matrices (especially for rotations).
It's amazing what graphics will do to get your platform some attention. Remember the first time you saw the Amiga screenshots of Defender of the Crown?
2) Support your software developers. A good machine has to be supported by good software. Good software has to be made with by developers and publishers who think they can make a profit. On a new platform, help from the manufacturer is a must.
Reusable code is in that equation. It's time to move past assembly code and support a higher level language like C++ with libraries. This means a real compiler that supports serious debugging and a optimized machine language generation. Professional code-bases are huge, and require easier to read code.
3) Have a multimedia solution like no other. The Microsoft Windows PC has come a long way with multimedia integration, but in my mind it has never taken the next step nor done it right. The Amiga could have additional inputs for things like HDMI and optical audio.
The Amiga could have DVR and video editing capabilities. Make people who own a video camera feel they need an Amiga to make (semi-)professional video of their ugly kids.
;-)
4) Provide a modular approach. Being able to upgrade your computer is a good. Computer manufacturers aren't always keen on this idea--they'd rather you buy a new system. At least on your higher end system, it's a good thing. You need to not be limited by your motherboard with what you can do with your system--especially graphics.
Like I stated in a previous post, this is really a pipe dream, but it's fun to ponder what would be if the Amiga has a serious investment.
:-D
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Don't forget exhaust ports.
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Yes Beast96GT, this sounds like Amiga to me. Not some mediocre half measure. If the visions aren’t there, there will be no investors, but if the visions are right and the aim bold enough the money will come.
A true Amiga shall always be able to run the best and most demanding games and software in the world, exactly as the vintage models did 20 years ago.
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It would need to have integrated perpetual motion feedback joypad with a sub-cold fusion reactor for power.
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And it needs to be all black. With a red pin stripe. :crazy:
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- not to mention the 66" (LDCD) Liquid Dilithium Crystal Display... and the soon to be released(two weeks)holographic imaging station - secure yours now with a £50 Amiga Inc voucher.
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alexh wrote:
It would need to have integrated perpetual motion feedback joypad with a sub-cold fusion reactor for power.
Wow, might as well require a flux-capacitor, huh?
I disagree.
Real-time ray-tracing is already achievable with the right hardware on the PC. A lot of the work can be done with CPU/GPU concurrency.
My $150 TV has an HDMI input--why can't my computer? Oh, that's because this computer is a PC and you need to buy a card for that.
Why can't my $500 Geforce 8800GTX card do anything for me other than run games fast?
Ok, yeah, I'm not a hardware engineer, but you guys are acting like I'm asking for the damn space shuttle!
:-D
Maybe that's why you're all still on here being bitter and complaining? :-D
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[Edit]: Not relevant!
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My $150 TV has an HDMI input--why can't my computer? Oh, that's because this computer is a PC and you need to buy a card for that.
Ask Jeri Ellsworth why she had to fight for a 5 cent part on that C=64 in a joystick.
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@Beast96GT
You talked about optimizing for real-time ray-tracing could something like this be used easily if a demanding 3d pc game was ported? or are they generally written for the floatingpoint?
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The new entry level Amiga would look like this:
A micro motherboard with an AMD processor and RAM
An NVidia Graphics card or chipset
AmigaOS5 for x64
An Office Suite with MS-Office compatible datatypes
A handful of new games
Be enclosed in a case like the A1200
Cost about $295-$495
The new entry middle tier (~A4000 bare) Amiga would look like this:
A motherboard with middle tier AMD processor
The middle tier NVidia graphics
AmigaOS5 for x64
An Office Suite with MS-Office compatible datatypes
A handful of new games
Be enclosed in a case like the A4000
Cost about $1195
The new top of the line would be like this:
2 Dual-Core AMD Opteron - Model 2222 SE
4 GB (4 x 1 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 Graphics Card
146 GB (1 x 146 GB) 15000 rpm SAS Disk
AmigaOS5 for x64
An Office Suite with MS-Office compatible datatypes
A handful of new games
Be enclosed in a case like the A4000T
Include a modernized Video Toaster and Maya 3D
Cost about $3595
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Hi Beast96GT,
Until AOS4.1 gets new HW, the bestest bet is the NatAmi60 and 70.
IF AntAmi70 becomes an ASIC, EVEN IF only at 900 MHz, it WILL haul ass!!!!
I think that it can compete with at least 2 GHz 32 bit P4s.
However, the graphics and sound can't compete with current vid/audio of today. At 900 MHz the graphics of the Nat70 would be very, very powerful, but todays GPUs have 128 bit registers and the new AMD 4870 has EIGHT HUNDRED of them!!!!!
Amiga's SuperAGA to stay backwards compatible will have to stay at 32 bit. But, can they increase the amount of blitters? I don't know. Or registers?
Maybe there can be a SuperAGA chip made with only blitter and graphics, and 4 could be put on a motherboard and they can operate in SLI mode. They'd each have their own 16 or 32 megs of ram. So, there's 1 SuperAGA (with 68060 , and 3 D core) and 4 more (with graphics, blitter, and 3D core), oh and, did I mention that they'd each have a SIMD unit as well? OH, I forgot to mention, if they had internal L1 ram in the SuperAGA of 4 megs, how about that????
Now, THAT, would be a computer!
And, it's FULLY backwards compatible too!
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Hi DavidF215,
While a good idea, how realistic is it?
WHO will recode AOS and make the new x86 versions of SW????
Mine IS genuinely within reach when the NAtAmi60 arrives!
And ALL OF Aminet will run on it!
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Dave, those are some practical ideas, but in my opinion, nothing that will ever do anything for the Amiga. Let's work on that list together, ok, bro? :)
cicero790: You've got an interesting question, but I would have no way of knowing. Depending on how the new hardware was developed, this would dictate the performance of any game ports.
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Will it have an optional cup warmer? I like to keep my coffee hot during all these late night coding sessions. I'm prepared to pay over the odds to have this function ...
I know I have a vaporware Amiga Inc voucher here somewhere ... Will they take that as part payment?
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Atheist wrote:
Mine IS genuinely within reach when the NAtAmi60 arrives!
And ALL OF Aminet will run on it!
Ahem, no it won't. Real Amigas can't even run everything on Aminet ;)
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ZeBeeDee wrote:
Will it have an optional cup warmer? I like to keep my coffee hot during all these late night coding sessions. I'm prepared to pay over the odds to have this function ...
Remove the heatsink and stand your coffee cup on top of the processor.
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WHO will recode AOS and make the new x86 versions of SW????
You already know that answer, AROS is already x86 and x86_64 native.
The only answer for desktop/laptop is x86/x86_64. ARM is the only real answer for small portable devices. I find these threads rather amusing as if people have not gotten a clue that a new hardware is never going to be released that can make any tech dent in the current marketplace. I find it even more amusing that people could even think the Amiga market is economically viable for any corporation to invest money in to make that dent.
Dammy
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A6000 wrote:
ZeBeeDee wrote:
Will it have an optional cup warmer? I like to keep my coffee hot during all these late night coding sessions. I'm prepared to pay over the odds to have this function ...
Remove the heatsink and stand your coffee cup on top of the processor.
Can't do that ... I'm using the processor as a BBQ :lol:
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@Beast96GT
I understand. It's just so important that not get painted into a corner.
dammy wrote:
WHO will recode AOS and make the new x86 versions of SW????
I find these threads rather amusing as if people have not gotten a clue that a new hardware is never going to be released that can make any tech dent in the current marketplace. I find it even more amusing that people could even think the Amiga market is economically viable for any corporation to invest money in to make that dent.
Dammy
I don't agree with you Dammy. If a computer that have been owned by millions make a new model that level with PC and MAC, that could most certainly make, not a dent, but a nasty bite of the previously mentioned market. This bite doesn't interest me, What does interest me is new modern Amiga models and a future for the computer brand I loved the most.
Ps. Amiga inc and Hyperion is informed about what happens here. If good ideas emerges they will hear them, the cup holder excluded Ds :-)
EDIT. O.k with hot and chill cup holder optional if member of amiga.org :-D
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dammy wrote:
I find these threads rather amusing as if people have not gotten a clue that a new hardware is never going to be released that can make any tech dent in the current marketplace. I find it even more amusing that people could even think the Amiga market is economically viable for any corporation to invest money in to make that dent.
Dammy
I think it's amusing how people like you feel they must contribute to the forums, yet you have nothing to contribute. This thread is meant only for fun and conjecture--you may leave at any time. :-)
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ZeBeeDee wrote:
Will it have an optional cup warmer? I like to keep my coffee hot during all these late night coding sessions. I'm prepared to pay over the odds to have this function ...
My computer has the opposite. It has a USB powered soda can chiller.
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alexh wrote:
My computer has the opposite. It has a USB powered soda can chiller.
Woooo ... Now that is something I can relate to :-)
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Beast96GT wrote:
dammy wrote:
I find these threads rather amusing as if people have not gotten a clue that a new hardware is never going to be released that can make any tech dent in the current marketplace. I find it even more amusing that people could even think the Amiga market is economically viable for any corporation to invest money in to make that dent.
Dammy
I think it's amusing how people like you feel they must contribute to the forums, yet you have nothing to contribute. This thread is meant only for fun and conjecture--you may leave at any time. :-)
You say he has nothing to contribute... in a thread about nothing... seems perfect to me.
In reality he has said something realistic in a thread that is a pointless waste of bandwidth.
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Being serious for a moment. Ignoring the Amiga aspect for a moment.
What would I like from a next generation computer? Probably a better way of interaction. While the keyboard and mouse remain the best way of getting data in and out of a computer they are not intuitive or natural.
Suggestions:
Multi-Touch screen.
Speech & Handwriting recognition.
Optical control interface. (The computer tracks eye movement perhaps with aid of glasses or a Monocle).
Neural interface ;-)
I worked on an optical control interface at University (decades ago). The system used a high resolution camera embedded in the screen to digitise the position of your head and the black and white of your eyes. It worked fairly well. I was surprised the Uni never tried to sell it!
The idea was for quadriplegic computer users.
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O.K explain the reality Bloodline. We should all shut up and get Iphones :lol:
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dammy wrote:
WHO will recode AOS and make the new x86 versions of SW????
You already know that answer, AROS is already x86 and x86_64 native.
The only answer for desktop/laptop is x86/x86_64. ARM is the only real answer for small portable devices. I find these threads rather amusing as if people have not gotten a clue that a new hardware is never going to be released that can make any tech dent in the current marketplace. I find it even more amusing that people could even think the Amiga market is economically viable for any corporation to invest money in to make that dent.
Dammy
I would strongly argue there. ARM is not the only real answer, even among portable makers. The Intel Atom, VIA Nano both make solid x86-capable portable CPU's which are making inroads. New MIPS CPU's are arriving that put the ARM in for a run for it's money. Even the ancient 68k with ColdFire is starting to bring some excitement back to the field. ARM might be 60% of the market, but that is not the "only real answer" any more than m68k was in the mid 1980's, where it was in the top half and Intel was the underdog.
Don't limit your vision, and really the sky is the limit.
Incidentally, to the guy proposing AMD CPU's, I'd actually look into that, but with the OS replacing the BIOS. Keep it in straight 64-bit mode from the get-go.
My thought is, make the desktop raytraced. Make it touch-friendly. Even I, this hw-freak, am willing to concede that the era of the custom all-in-one solution is past. But you can still get some fun stuff out there.
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What would I like from a next generation computer? Probably a better way of interaction. [...]
Suggestions:
Multi-Touch screen.
Speech & Handwriting recognition.
Optical control interface.
I want an electronic neck just below the monitor, so the next time the @)%*@)%* machine does something retarded I can reach out and choke the ever-loving crap outta it.
Think about it, stupidity is OS independent. The next time Internet Explorer automatically downloads the latest exploit, XFree mangles my all my screenmodes, Guru Meditation suddenly shows up and wipes out everything that wasn't saved [probably because that MOD I was playing in the background had a glitch...] :pissed:
I want that machine to truly know and feel the wrath that is coming for it. :lol:
[EDIT: - Alternatively, if it's a handheld/laptop, a few accelerometers should be used so it can react when I shake the hell out of it. :lol: ]
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cicero790 wrote:
O.K explain the reality Bloodline. We should all shut up and get Iphones :lol:
Well, no... the iPhone isn't a desktop computer :-)
But some people here are not expressing realistic desires for a new computer... let alone an amiga...
If this is fantasy thread then why not have a Flux Capacitor... I'd love to visit 1985...
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I would like it pocket size with a direct mind input/output system. Powered by cold fusion.
(http://forums.clanterritory.com/images/smilies/celebs/groucho.gif)
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@ Persia
We've already had both of those.
But I just realised that a direct mind I/O system would require all Amiga users to have minds :-D
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bloodline wrote:
But some people here are not expressing realistic desires for a new computer... let alone an amiga...
Hi bloodline,
Well, at least the one I commented on will be made, so I'm happy.
Okay, so they might not go the 4 extra GPUs route to get SLI mode, but it could be made into a 900 MHz ASIC in the future, with enough $$$.
A SUPER Amiga is coming next year, 2009!
I am referring to a >600 MHz ASIC of the SuperAGA.
DISCLAIMER: I am NOT saying NatAmi group of devs is making a >600MHz ASIC, but that it COULD happen.
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And I COULD win the Euro-Millions lottery (if I actually played) the odds are probably better.
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I think it's amusing how people like you feel they must contribute to the forums, yet you have nothing to contribute. This thread is meant only for fun and conjecture--you may leave at any time.
Actually, I am making a contribution to this thread, cold hard reality. Now, isn't that a refreshing injection into a rather beaten to death :horse: subject?
Dammy
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I would strongly argue there. ARM is not the only real answer, even among portable makers. The Intel Atom, VIA Nano both make solid x86-capable portable CPU's which are making inroads. New MIPS CPU's are arriving that put the ARM in for a run for it's money. Even the ancient 68k with ColdFire is starting to bring some excitement back to the field. ARM might be 60% of the market, but that is not the "only real answer" any more than m68k was in the mid 1980's, where it was in the top half and Intel was the underdog.
Last I saw, ARM was closer to 70%, but even at 60% it makes it a no brainer to port to ARM ATPIT. If MIPS or any other CPU gets 40% or better of the portable market, I'll be happy to see a port to that as well. Right now, it would be rather stupid to place any significant developer time on anything other then ARM. No one can afford another PPC like fiasco.
Dammy
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ZeBeeDee wrote:
Can't do that ... I'm using the processor as a BBQ :lol:
That would be pan frying.
Let's face it, Microsoft is too powerfull.
[color=008000]All bow down to the almighty Bill Gates.[/color]
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dammy wrote:
I would strongly argue there. ARM is not the only real answer, even among portable makers. The Intel Atom, VIA Nano both make solid x86-capable portable CPU's which are making inroads. New MIPS CPU's are arriving that put the ARM in for a run for it's money. Even the ancient 68k with ColdFire is starting to bring some excitement back to the field. ARM might be 60% of the market, but that is not the "only real answer" any more than m68k was in the mid 1980's, where it was in the top half and Intel was the underdog.
Last I saw, ARM was closer to 70%, but even at 60% it makes it a no brainer to port to ARM ATPIT. If MIPS or any other CPU gets 40% or better of the portable market, I'll be happy to see a port to that as well. Right now, it would be rather stupid to place any significant developer time on anything other then ARM. No one can afford another PPC like fiasco.
Since nobody can afford another PowerPC-like fiasco then maybe we should be porting to a bitcode that compiles at install time like LLVM. That's what Apple is doing. In fact Apple is including LLVM in its 3.1 XCode presumably so it won't ever get stuck on one processor again. (The fact that they're doing this now that they are on Intel's chips also seems to have escaped you.) This way they can have Intel chips and PowerPC chips on the desktop and ARM chips on the handhelds without having to widen their universal "fat" binaries to produce all kinds of code simultaneously at compile time.
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Since nobody can afford another PowerPC-like fiasco then maybe we should be porting to a bitcode that compiles at install time like LLVM. That's what Apple is doing. In fact Apple is including LLVM in its 3.1 XCode presumably so it won't ever get stuck on one processor again. (The fact that they're doing this now that they are on Intel's chips also seems to have escaped you.) This way they can have Intel chips and PowerPC chips on the desktop and ARM chips on the handhelds without having to widen their universal "fat" binaries to produce all kinds of code simultaneously at compile time.
LLVM gets a thumbs up from me, at least for AROS.
Dammy
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[replying to the original post]
The mythical Amiga of the future... I wouldn't mind seeing it happen. IMO...
1/ Graphics powerhouse. Possibly. Real time Raytracing is seriously in beta stage on the PC. It'll be at least 2 years before you see something in the market and I think that is being optimistic. Everyone will need to upgrade their video cards and and machines to play with real time raytraced programs. That will be a hard pill to swallow for many.
Compared to the current 3D rendering, raytracing is super computationally intensive. You need some beefy hardware to support it. I'd be content with a more normal and current board from nVidia.
Quaternions is just another tool in the box, it won't replace euclidean transformations; so they aren't exactly necessary IMO.
Personally, I'd like to see a good OpenGL implementation instead of a roll and Amiga flavour of a 3D library. This will make porting 3D games and programs over quite a bit easier and make the Amiga a platform that serious developers might consider.
2/ Developer Support. No argument here. I do suggest being ruthless in native library functions. I don't know enough about the Amiga libraries but I know enough about the Windows libraries to say that functions should be simple and easy to understand and use. Trim the unnecessary fat. Make them work logically. Make them work.
3/ Multimedia platform. Amiga could have had this market tied up back in the Babylon 5 days. If only... But it's one of those niches that a computer needs to carve out for itself. It will be difficult to claw that back from Windows, Mac and Linux. Also with all these new video formats you need some beefy hardware just for encoding the video. You also need, for serious work, RAID support and very large file systems.
Audio production was also somewhat a field that the Amiga could have dominated. Also a field that will require some clawing back of the other platforms.
4/ Hardware Modularity. I somewhat agree. Partly what killed or limited the market for SGI, Sun and MAC was the fact that they used proprietary stuff. And that proprietary stuff had some serious markup. Users look at the cost of a drive/monitor/keyboard/etc. and look at the similar PC generic device and wonder, what they hell am I paying for. It was a reason why at my work we dumped SGI and SUN support because the reason to go with them was no longer compelling enough. PCs were good enough, fast enough and half as costly. You can buy off the shelf components when certain components failed. Whatever this mythical Amiga becomes should just use off the shelf components as much as possible.
This brings up an comment I saw someone else make. Low end should look like an A500/A600/A1200? What are you smoking? I never understood why people liked that all in one look. Keyboards fail. Replacing a keyboard in an all in one design is far more difficult, especially for the average gumby, than buying an off the shelf keyboard and plugging it in. I would rather see something like a mac-mini or iTV form factor in a low end device than the computer in the keyboard idea.
I would ideally like to see digital outs. HDMI (video and audio) or at the very least DVI with digital coax/optical audio. The trend is going that way and it would make hooking up the stereo system so much easier. With 7.1 or more signals and analog out is a bit clumsy. Multi-head capable is needed as well. When doing 3D, software dev or maybe even video editing, having multiple heads is a godsend.
I would ideally like to see at least a Ghz machine, but closer to 2 Ghz the better. There are a few PCs that still come with sub 2GHz range. Multi-core would be nice but for a first go, not necessary. 64 Bit as well. When working with big audio and video or even 3D, a lot of companies are hitting the 4GB barrier and are wanting more. For a serious solution, you need to be able to give it to them.
So as a minimum
Motherboard:
- 64 bit
- GHz level CPU
- >4 GB capable using off the shelf RAM modules
- PCIe expansion capable (if not all in one.)
- Built in video capable of at least 2 heads. HDMI preferred.
- Built in audio. Digital coax/optical out preferred.
- USB for perriferals. (Keyboard, mouse, webcam)
Software:
- Development tools available and free. (Like Linux and Mac)
- OpenGL libraries.
- Sane OS libraries.
- A nice sane looking interface. All these 3D enhanced UI that Vista, Mac and some Linux window managers are offering are nice and all but really aren't needed IMO.
- A program that will recognize when I wave a certain finger at the computer that the computer will feel shame.
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
dammy wrote:
I would strongly argue there. ARM is not the only real answer, even among portable makers. The Intel Atom, VIA Nano both make solid x86-capable portable CPU's which are making inroads. New MIPS CPU's are arriving that put the ARM in for a run for it's money. Even the ancient 68k with ColdFire is starting to bring some excitement back to the field. ARM might be 60% of the market, but that is not the "only real answer" any more than m68k was in the mid 1980's, where it was in the top half and Intel was the underdog.
Last I saw, ARM was closer to 70%, but even at 60% it makes it a no brainer to port to ARM ATPIT. If MIPS or any other CPU gets 40% or better of the portable market, I'll be happy to see a port to that as well. Right now, it would be rather stupid to place any significant developer time on anything other then ARM. No one can afford another PPC like fiasco.
Since nobody can afford another PowerPC-like fiasco then maybe we should be porting to a bitcode that compiles at install time like LLVM. That's what Apple is doing. In fact Apple is including LLVM in its 3.1 XCode presumably so it won't ever get stuck on one processor again. (The fact that they're doing this now that they are on Intel's chips also seems to have escaped you.) This way they can have Intel chips and PowerPC chips on the desktop and ARM chips on the handhelds without having to widen their universal "fat" binaries to produce all kinds of code simultaneously at compile time.
You got the thumbs up from me here!
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ok not wishing to start a fight, but why AMD, the old generation i agree kicked intels butt, but the current stuff it's intel all the way, until AMD get up to speed why use them?
seriously i'm not picking a fight i'm just curious
cheers juv.u.k
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JuvUK wrote:
ok not wishing to start a fight, but why AMD, the old generation i agree kicked intels butt, but the current stuff it's intel all the way, until AMD get up to speed why use them?
seriously i'm not picking a fight i'm just curious
cheers juv.u.k
For me it's a case of total solution. Vendor lock-in is where a single vendor can hold a project hostage, say, Northbridge for PPC chips. In this case, using the same vendor for as much as possible is a serious discouragement for such tactics. "We play with their northbridge, wait, they stopped buying our GPU and CPU". It's a solid tactic. Intel does not offer this capability, with their sub-par GPU systems.
AMD also is far friendlier in the licensing needed for producing custom BIOS's, as demonstrated with the LinuxBIOS and OLPC projects. While they might not offer assistance, they won't hinder either.
Since we lack the ability to manufacture such chips ourselves, the fewer vendors we have to deal with that control critical systems, the fewer chances for some minor supply chain issue to completely derail us.
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fair enough, but surely whichever cpu you decide on you are going to end up tied to it in one way or another, and as we've seen, intel is able to weather storms for longer than AMD could hold out, as for a GPU surely that should be a nvidea chip? yet another tie in, but surely the way to go?
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The great thing about the amigas custom chipset was/is that it gave each model a long life, 24 years and counting, whilst PCs are obsolete in 4years or less.
If a future amiga used off the shelf parts, it would need to be regularly upgraded too, GPU's have a life span of just 2 years or so, and newer software would not run fast enough on a 4 year old amiga that used off the shelf parts.
Fast processors and gigabytes of ram encourages lazy programming.
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I agree with you A6000. The graphic cards needs to be replaceable other wise it will fall behind pc every second year. It will not do, market wise, and it would fail in the intention of being a computer capable of running the most taxing games available. The option to upgrade must probably be there. The sound chips isn't that sensitive to this rat race or the cpu if its a quality cpu.
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>While a good idea, how realistic is it?
WHO will recode AOS and make the new x86 versions of SW????
Mine IS genuinely within reach when the NAtAmi60 arrives!
Well, how unrealistic is it? Sun Microsystems and Apple both ported their OS to x64. Give me two valid, practical reasons (one business and one technical) why the idea is unrealistic in contrast to Sun's and Apple's reasons in porting their OS to x64. Sun Microsystems is an Enterprise level business with lots of experience in the industry, and if they made the decision to port SolarisOS (with is more stable than AmigaOS and is an Enterprise level OS), then I see NO reason not to follow them.
Who will port AmigaOS to x64? Hyperion ported from 68000 to PowerPC, so they have porting and business experience coupled with a few new employees from the Aros and UAE projects--if any of them are available for hire for such a project. The only SW that may have problems with emulation are newer apps designed for the PowerPC chips.
Where's a link for this NAtAmi60 project?
>Dave, those are some practical ideas, but in my opinion, nothing that will ever do anything for the Amiga. Let's work on that list together, ok, bro? :)
Why wouldn't it do anything for Amiga if the code was ported to x64. The only other chip I would use other than PPC would be the Power5 chip from IBM, but that's too expensive for a new entry level Amiga computer.
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The new top of the line would be like this:
2 Dual-Core AMD Opteron - Model 2222 SE
4 GB (4 x 1 GB DIMMs)
NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 Graphics Card
146 GB (1 x 146 GB) 15000 rpm SAS Disk
AmigaOS5 for x64
An Office Suite with MS-Office compatible datatypes
A handful of new games
Be enclosed in a case like the A4000T
Include a modernized Video Toaster and Maya 3D
Cost about $3595
OMFG! :-o I'd *LOVE* this for Maya and it's 3X the price I can build a quad-core for. I want Open Office, though. Accept no substitute! :-D
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DavidF215 wrote:
Where's a link for this NAtAmi60 project?
Here
"http://www.natami.net"
Chris
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@Zekaric
>This brings up an comment I saw someone else make. Low end should look like an A500/A600/A1200? What are you smoking? I never understood why people liked that all in one look.
Apparently nothing like you're smoking. Unfortunately for you, Apple has proven that there is a market for such small devices due to the success of their MacMini.
>Keyboards fail.
I've been in the PC tech support industry for years, and keyboard failure has been rare. It's not an important factor anymore.
>Replacing a keyboard in an all in one design is far more difficult, especially for the average gumby, than buying an off the shelf keyboard and plugging it in.
I agree to a point, but in reality such "gumby" users are not going to know that it was a keyboard failure to begin with, and they'll bring the entire computer to the shop anyways. And since keyboard failures are so rare these days (other than spilled liquids), I don't think it's a big issue. My A1200 keyboard has yet to fail, and even my C64 keyboard still works. So, again, I don't see replacement as a big deal.
>I would rather see something like a mac-mini or iTV form factor in a low end device than the computer in the keyboard idea.
I like both designs, and I'm sure others do, too. Offer both and let the market decide.
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QuikSanz wrote:
DavidF215 wrote:
Where's a link for this NAtAmi60 project?
Here
"http://www.natami.net"
Chris
I forgot about this project, and I remember wondering if it has a license from Amiga, Inc. If so, then it would be a good thing for Amiga. The site mentions a licensed copy of AmigaOS, so I somewhat presume that the hardware has been licensed as well. ?? Anyone know?
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@DavidF215
While an all-in-one keyboard design would be quite nice, it has one big flaw: I already have a perfectly functional keyboard, and I'm going to need a KVM switch anyway because I don't have room on my desk for two monitors. So for me anyway a small box design is more practical than a pc-in-a-keyboard design. This is btw one of the reasons why I haven't bought desktop a mac yet: I already have a monitor, thank you (the mini's not powerful enough and I don't need an 8-core monster either).
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@DavidF215
About NatAmi, the hardware wasn't licensed for the simple fact that it's 100% new; there isn't a single CBM-designed chip on the board. The chipset is compatible based on the publicly available documentation and assorted reverse engineering techniques. Since neither Gunnar nor Thomas worked for CBM or any subsidiary, it's a clean room design. The "licensed copy of AmigaOS" is apparently just a few hundred boxed copies of OS3.9. Nice and simple, no weird contracts :-)
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I'd like a new Amiga that guru meditates like the original - everyone needs time for the guru :)
Or how about a high concept art computer - a cross between Dali's melting clock and a pretzel design. Looks is everything! forget apples, satsumas are the way to go.
b-t-w why computers have to be grey, black, or creamy white?
Failing that, I'd go for a H.A.L 9000 type computer that speaks, opens the garage doors, and reminds me of some general mindless 'to do' chores, and understands basic philosophical concepts.
Yeah, sure all you'd have to do is upgrade the Amiga's existing speech synthesis chip to a Super speech synthesis chip that speaks 10 languages and has intergrated A.I.
How about a competition for designing a new concept Amiga?
J>>>
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Zekaric sketched a perfectly do able design. That could have competitive price and that could fill the same market segment the original Amiga upheld.
@Jpan1
Zabasoft releases Ultra Hal that is exactly what you talking about. A chat bot you can talk to and that learns talking to it and that can perform tasks. That in conjunction with a built in speech recognition and OS5 could be a SI-FI vet dream.
Hi Amiga how are you doing?
-Wait…Every test seems fine exept. S.M.A.R.T report slight degradation of DH3.
Good, fire up the browser and head to Amiga.org
-All rightie then!
But this is nothing to joke about because, it’s small thing like that, that make you prefer something. :-)
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JuvUK wrote:
fair enough, but surely whichever cpu you decide on you are going to end up tied to it in one way or another, and as we've seen, intel is able to weather storms for longer than AMD could hold out, as for a GPU surely that should be a nvidea chip? yet another tie in, but surely the way to go?
No, now you have two vendors to worry about going under or causing issues with your supply chain. AMD+ATI means 1 stop shopping, one vendor to worry about, one vendor to get license agreements with, one vendor to pay attention to. AMD is going nowhere. With 1/20th the cash of Intel, it has 20% of the market. That is one hell of a return on investment. That is also a sign of how solid the company underneath is.
I personally wouldn't choose an x86, but if you insist on it, at least use the supply company with the most transparency and best total solution provided. Intel cannot fill all pieces of the system, AMD can. (VIA can as well, but they're not quite up there at this time)
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@CodeSmith
Regarding NatAmi, I would think for it to have any commercial significance it needs to be licensed; otherwise, what happens when the number of legal copies of AmigaOS 3.x are gone. A license with Amiga, Inc would enable production of additional AmigaOS licenses.
I remember when the IBM PC was proprietary and reverse engineered by Compaq, I think. Microsoft came along and provided an OS for the new clone. If the project is wanting to repeat this, it might be tricky because times are a little different legally and Companies are suing more frequently for copy attempts.
Even if it was successful, a new name would need to be created because Amiga is a registered name, and I presume NatAmi would be the new name. Plus, the system will need a true AmigaOS that is updated from an original.
IMO the project, once the development version is ready to ship, should contact Amiga, Inc for a license, and it should be presented by someone with good diplomatic and negotiation skills to ensure the project succeeds. I would think that if NatAmi was successfully prototyped and had a list of committed developers as well as other customers, then Amiga, Inc would grant a license in time.
The Amiga market has been fractured enough, and NatAmi, along with the other projects, need to work together with the Parent holder of the technology to further enhance the Brand. Otherwise, noone is going to profit from it as has been the track record over the last decade or two--I'm sure I don't have to start naming Companies and attempts. Five to ten percent of a cooperative, successful Brand is better than 100% of a fractured market that simply struggles just to survive.
The NatAmi sounds like a good project that has potential. In the least it can serve as a bridge between the old technology and the new technology (whatever the new becomes). The only obstacle that I see in the future would be converging the NatAmi technology with the AmigaOS4 PPC code.
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what you are talking about has already been made!
except instead of Commodore it was made by Sony,
and instead of Amiga it says Playstation 3.
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DavidF215 wrote:
IMO the project, once the development version is ready to ship, should contact Amiga, Inc for a license. I would think that if NatAmi was successfully prototyped and had a list of committed developers as well as other customers, then Amiga, Inc would grant a license in time.
No, they won't, Amiga Inc will not under any circumstances, grant any Amiga licenses. They are determined to kill the Amiga, why?, I don't know, maybe some other company is paying them to do it, I cannot see how they would benefit otherwise.
When Natami runs out of OS 3.9, they could either sell it without an OS, since we all have several already, or bundle AROS68k with it.
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Thanks for the info @ cicero790,
~Ultra Hal looks basic but cool in it's infant form!
'Humanizing' the New Amiga would definitely give it more appeal, for the home user computer market.
'Now, Hal how about a nice game of chess'?
- oops wrong film!
;-)
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DavidF215 wrote:
@CodeSmith
Regarding NatAmi, I would think for it to have any commercial significance it needs to be licensed; otherwise, what happens when the number of legal copies of AmigaOS 3.x are gone. A license with Amiga, Inc would enable production of additional AmigaOS licenses.
Hi DavidF215,
I believe there are an infinite amount of AOS3.9's available. Doesn't every copy of Amiga Forever come with a full, byte for byte copy of AOS3.9? What you run it on is your business.
Anyway, there are over 5 million AOS roms out there, as long as you own one, you are entitled to some version of AOS, that gives NatAmi60 at least 2 years of production. :-D
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A6000 wrote:
The great thing about the amigas custom chipset was/is that it gave each model a long life, 24 years and counting,
It was users too tight to upgrade that gave the Amiga it's long life... THe Custom chipset gave it a 4 year headstart over the rest of the industry, then the industry cought up... and the Amiga died.
whilst PCs are obsolete in 4years or less.
So that stock A1200 you bought in 1992 was still able to keep up with a PC in 1996?
If a future amiga used off the shelf parts, it would need to be regularly upgraded too, GPU's have a life span of just 2 years or so,
Nvidia have been working to a 6 month product lifecycle for a long time... I think the rate has slowed now... though I could be wrong.
and newer software would not run fast enough on a 4 year old amiga that used off the shelf parts.
How would it be any different with a custom design?
Fast processors and gigabytes of ram encourages lazy programming.
No it doesn't, it allows developers more freedom. The software I run on my MacBook Pro today would be unthinkable on a top of the line desktop machine 8 years ago!
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All this talk of new hardware will never get anyone anywhere.
We have OS4.x and MOS 2.0 but no 3rd party software (thats any good or NEW) to support it. You can have all the x86, quadruple core PPC, dual video card system, 100GB RAM (whatever you'all are dreaming about) but no software to run on it other than the OS.
Best thing is to pick up a programming book and start writing something.
This post brought to you by the letters ** and the word "*****".
EDITED by TheMagicM :-)
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I think it is wrong for a moderator to use this forum to conduct a personal vendetta.
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(Reposting from the other thread, in case you missed it...)
Beast96GT wrote:
The Amiga graphics chips could optimize for Quaternions which are much better than matrices (especially for rotations).
In what sense "optimised", that isn't already done on modern hardware? Presumably if there was some obvious way to speed things up here, NVIDIA etc would already be doing it.
Quaternions are only a representation of 3x3 matrices for rotations, they still need to be converted to 4x4 matrices to represent general transformations anyway.
Zekaric wrote:
Quaternions is just another tool in the box, it won't replace euclidean transformations; so they aren't exactly necessary IMO.
Well, if they're needed, they're written in software anyway, so they shouldn't have anything to do with hardware choices. Quaternions are better than Euler rotations as they avoid "grimbal lock", but use less variables than a 3x3 matrix (4 verus 9). It's also easier to do some algorithms using quaternions rather than rotation matrices (e.g., spherical linear interpolation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slerp)).
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A6000 wrote:
No, they won't, Amiga Inc will not under any circumstances, grant any Amiga licenses. They are determined to kill the Amiga, why?, I don't know, maybe some other company is paying them to do it, I cannot see how they would benefit otherwise.
Sure about this?
A6000 wrote:
When Natami runs out of OS 3.9, they could either sell it without an OS, since we all have several already, or bundle AROS68k with it.
I guess AROS would work.
Atheist wrote:
I believe there are an infinite amount of AOS3.9's available. Doesn't every copy of Amiga Forever come with a full, byte for byte copy of AOS3.9? What you run it on is your business.
Yeah, I forgot about Amiga Forever having the OS. It would be a native OS to the hardware.
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..double post.. :D
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mdwh2 wrote:
(Reposting from the other thread, in case you missed it...)
Beast96GT wrote:
The Amiga graphics chips could optimize for Quaternions which are much better than matrices (especially for rotations).
In what sense "optimised", that isn't already done on modern hardware? Presumably if there was some obvious way to speed things up here, NVIDIA etc would already be doing it.
Quaternions are only a representation of 3x3 matrices for rotations, they still need to be converted to 4x4 matrices to represent general transformations anyway.
Zekaric wrote:
Quaternions is just another tool in the box, it won't replace euclidean transformations; so they aren't exactly necessary IMO.
Well, if they're needed, they're written in software anyway, so they shouldn't have anything to do with hardware choices. Quaternions are better than Euler rotations as they avoid "grimbal lock", but use less variables than a 3x3 matrix (4 verus 9). It's also easier to do some algorithms using quaternions rather than rotation matrices (e.g., spherical linear interpolation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slerp)).
To avoid gimbal lock and get smoother rotations, most game engines convert a rotation matrix to a quaternion, rotate it, then convert it back to a matrix. You can't tell me this process can't be optimized, especially on the GPU.
Chris
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Beast96GT wrote:
To avoid gimbal lock and get smoother rotations, most game engines convert a rotation matrix to a quaternion, rotate it, then convert it back to a matrix. You can't tell me this process can't be optimized, especially on the GPU.
Yes, this is spherical linear interpolation, and yes, I suspect that between the billions spent by the likes of Intel and NVIDIA, and the large numbers of people working in 3D graphics, people have already optimised it as much as is worth doing.
The first rule of performance is that it's only worth improving the bottlenecks. Whilst SLERP may at first look long winded, it's nothing for modern CPUs, and typically only has to be done once per animated object per frame - I imagine drawing thousands of polygons with complex pixel shaders is far more likely to eat up the time.
Engines don't necessarily need to convert both ways - e.g., they can store rotations as quaternions, so you can do SLERP straight off, and then convert that, along with the position, to a 4x4 transformation matrix to apply. Converting a quaternion to a matrix is a quick process, just involving a few multiplications.
Moreover, this sort of thing already can be optimised. CPUs have all these extra instructions (e.g., SSE) for multplying arrays of numbers together which can be used here. Similarly on the GPU. Saying they could optimise this process is like saying they could optimise the dot product or cross product or matrix multiplication - such things already are optimised.
Also I don't see how this is related to any new Amiga hardware idea? You're not going to convince NVIDIA etc to implement some new idea, and if you're suggesting that a company develops their own "Amiga" custom chipset just to implement this one idea, it would likely as a whole fall way behind other chipsets due to a lack of investment and experience.
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Exactly, you have Nvidia and ATI, each with thousands of employees focused on video development and you think that a little company is going to design something better? The world is a different place than when CBM went bankrupt, trying to manufacture your own graphics cards (or worse yet putting them on the motherboard) is foolish, better to go with industry standard components and build your OS around those.
This is why it is hard to get back into the OS market. How do you distinguish a new Amiga from a Linux/BSD/Windows box? If you build it why not just run MSWindows or Linux on it? You really have to write the applications for the OS as well as the OS. Everybody does video now, and you have rich and complex products that run circles around video toaster. Why would I (your average Joe Video) want to use an Amiga?
You need a new OS and a new set of killer apps, a tough combination for sure. And if you do come up with a killer app you have to resist the millions of sales you could potentially get from porting it to Microsoft. It takes a visionary who doesn't care about money, a rare breed to be sure.
(http://www.emofaces.com/en/emoticons/e/einstein-emoticon.gif)
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I see a couple of different things here:
1: One of the above posters is right, the PS3 is somehow like a modern Amiga, it would just need its own OS. Lots of custom stuff in there, and using the CELL chip instead of a generic x86 or windows approach, and it’s a powerhouse leading in front of the other consoles (just my opinion ;) )
Imagine Commodore would be still around and not acting as retarded as in the late eighties/early nineties, this could be how a modern Amiga would look like.
2: The OS way: If no dedicated hardware is around, I would go the x86 route. Like the rest of the possibilities, it doesn’t hold much future, because except of a few nostalgic geezers like us, nobody will give up their Windows/Linux/MacOs operating systems for Amiga Os in any form. There is simply not enough power behind the Amiga anymore.
3: Natami. If this is real, and I am not yet convinced that this will ever see the light of the day in any form (I believe they got their “Super Aga” running, but getting a 68040 running on the same FPGA with even higher speeds than the originals sounds a little bit farfetched to me). Well if this is real indeed, I see many chances. You have the fraction of oldschoolers, who want to play their old games and use their old software, but you can also get the people along, who want to use their Amiga for more modern uses, browsing the web in a convenient way for instance. Plus a couple of nerds (like me) would maybe be interested to develop something new for this.
Natami and AROS together sound like a dream come true to me, and the best thing with this is, you have people from the community working on the future of the Amiga.
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This:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813159002
running AROS.
Amiga OS, graphical powerhouse*, and hey, it's all on one board, just like an Amiga!
*=compared to what the Amiga has, or will have at any point in the future.
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persia:
>Exactly, you have Nvidia and ATI, each with thousands of employees focused on video development and you think that a little company is going to design something better?
My thoughts, too. Start with developing drivers for a selected line of integrated Intel Graphics processors then expand to Nvidia.
>This is why it is hard to get back into the OS market. How do you distinguish a new Amiga from a Linux/BSD/Windows box? If you build it why not just run MSWindows or Linux on it? You really have to write the applications for the OS as well as the OS. Everybody does video now, and you have rich and complex products that run circles around video toaster. Why would I (your average Joe Video) want to use an Amiga?
For some reason the old Journey song, "Only Solutions," from Tron popped into my head.
@B00tDisk
Nice Mobo. It should run KX Light with Amiga Forever, and noone would know the difference. ;) Just need to be able to run OS4 on it then, or if Amiga Inc would allow Hyperion to develop OS4.2 for one of the ACube PPC motherboards then that would be fine, too.
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Modern graphics cards are designed to be optimal for typical 32-bit floating point (matrices and such) math.
ATI Radeon HD 38x0/48x0 and NV GeForce GT2x0 can do 64bit floating point math.
The Amiga graphics chips (preferably on a card) could optimize for real-time ray-tracing. It's not a fantasy by any means; it's already being done on the PC, but it's limited and requires massive hardware.
There's no need for "massive hardware" i.e. $199USD Radeon HD 4870 would do the trick. Soon to be released Radeon HD 48x0(RV770 LE) estimated to be ~$150 USD.
Refer to http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38145/135/
"Watch out, Larrabee: Radeon 4800 supports a 100% ray-traced pipeline".
Cheaper Radeon HD 46x0 has ~320 stream processors i.e. similar Radeon HD 38x0(RV670).
Realtime raytracing for Transformers movie trailers was done on Radeon HD 2900XT(R600).
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1: One of the above posters is right, the PS3 is somehow like a modern Amiga, it would just need its own OS. Lots of custom stuff in there, and using the CELL chip instead of a generic x86 or windows approach, and it’s a powerhouse leading in front of the other consoles (just my opinion ;) )
That CELL chip fixes issues with RSX GPU (NV G7x) i.e. lack of Early-Z test, limited vertex shader resource, lack of concurrent operations pixel shader and textures. These are issues for the G7x GPUs.
NV G7x's issues was fixed in NV G8x GPU i.e. includes Early-Z, concurrent operations for shaders and textures,
maximise shader resource (unified shaders).
Like NV G8x GPUs, issues from G7x is not applicable for Xbox360’s GPU(Xenos).
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There's something that people talking about OS4 on the PS3 are overlooking - and that is that Sony has completely locked you out of the hypervisor unless you give them a lot of money. Case in point, there was a rolling homebrew demo showing off some blitter operations, well, guess what? The hole that the coders used to do it was closed up by Sony in the following system update.
Ain't gonna be Amiga OS on the Playstation (unless you're running UAE through Linux).
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I didn't talk about putting Amiga OS on the PS3 (which might be a clever idea or not, dunno), but i wanted to say that modern day custom ideas that go against the grain in computer technology still exist, and thats being shown by the PS3. Which gets bought alot.
That's why i compared the PS3 of today to the Amiga of my childhood. A computersystem that's not run-of-the-mill, and competing.
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Erm, sorry to be Captain Obvious here, but isn't the PS3 a console, not a computer, or am I just getting old?
AMIGA = Amazing Machine In a Gone Age....
Take off the rose-coloured shades and admit that there isn't ever going to be a new Amiga like it was back in the 90s, unless you are wearing ruby slippers... :lol:
Just enjoy the hobby while it lasts, life is too short....
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WotTheFook wrote:
Erm, sorry to be Captain Obvious here, but isn't the PS3 a console, not a computer, or am I just getting old?
So what's a console? A car? A toaster? A house?
A console is a computer, although a specialized one.
AMIGA = Amazing Machine In a Gone Age....
Take off the rose-coloured shades and admit that there isn't ever going to be a new Amiga like it was back in the 90s, unless you are wearing ruby slippers... :lol:
Just enjoy the hobby while it lasts, life is too short....
true...
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WotTheFook wrote:
Take off the rose-coloured shades and admit that there isn't ever going to be a new Amiga like it was back in the 90s, unless you are wearing ruby slippers... :lol:
Well I hope not - a machine of the 90s would be way out of date ;) The problem in my opinion is that those with the rights to the Amiga have been releasing machines too much like machines of the 90s, rather than cutting forward to using modern technology, like Apple have had to do.
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Yes we need serious power under the hood. Then the Alien breed developers could perhaps license the cryo2 engine for the remake. ;-)
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we need use einen playstation 3. it's pretty good. i think. probably.
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Putting AmigaOS on PS3 is a waste of time and investment. People buy the PS3 for games not for a computing experience. What motivation is there for a PS3 owner to buy AmigaOS for it when PS3 already has excellent games?
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Steril707 wrote:
That's why i compared the PS3 of today to the Amiga of my childhood.
Always getting poor second rate ports of Xbox 360 titles which never use any of the PS3's custom hardware?
Just like the early Amiga days getting crappy Atari ST ports. Yeah I can see your point.
Lets hope as time goes on the programmers embrace the PS3 and actually use some of it's features.
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okok maybe thats not such a good idea.
but what is a good idea is an ATX comp motherboard
based on the CELL processor with PCI slots, PCI-EX card slots and RD-RAM slots. General SATA and IDE, along with onboard audio DSP.
It will take Pci-ex 16x cards from AMD/ATI or Nvidia.
Port Amiga OS 4/5 to it, and presto you have a new computing platform. Build a nice looking case to it.
and it could compete with Apple and Microshaft.
Cell Cpu's are getting cheaper and this will happen one way or another. weather it's Amiga branded or not. It WILL happen. Sony does not own the entire patent. and CELL cpu's will make their way into other platforms.
If i was mcbill i would try to license the cell CPU and focus on getting AOS onto it. rather than farting around with whatever he is doing now.
It makes sense.
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mikrucio wrote:
okok maybe thats not such a good idea.
but what is a good idea is an ATX comp motherboard
based on the CELL processor with PCI slots, PCI-EX card slots and RD-RAM slots. General SATA and IDE, along with onboard audio DSP.
It will take Pci-ex 16x cards from AMD/ATI or Nvidia.
Port Amiga OS 4/5 to it, and presto you have a new computing platform. Build a nice looking case to it.
and it could compete with Apple and Microshaft.
Cell Cpu's are getting cheaper and this will happen one way or another. weather it's Amiga branded or not. It WILL happen. Sony does not own the entire patent. and CELL cpu's will make their way into other platforms.
If i was mcbill i would try to license the cell CPU and focus on getting AOS onto it. rather than farting around with whatever he is doing now.
It makes sense.
What web browser and other modern OS components will AmigaOS4/5 have to compete with Mac and Windows, or Linux?
What modern programs for banking, word processing, spreadsheets, etc. that are compatible with worldwide standards (which means Microsoft Word & Excel) will AmigaOS4/5 have to compete with Mac, Windows, or Linux?
Answer: NONE!
And I am one of the optimistic Amiga Fanatics that thinks that there will be new Amiga hardware in our future and I plan to keep supporting the effort by buying gear and software and learning more about programming so I can actually write something worthwhile for our community.
If the Amiga is ever going to compete with Windows, Mac & Linux (and that is a HUGE IF!), it will happen very slowly over the course of probably 10 to 20 years, if ever. It would take that long for the Amiga community to catch up with OS features and meaningful software support.
I hope it happens and I will do everything I can to help, but it is so very highly unlikely, that it is easy to see why so many say it is impossible.
(now that I have committed the cardinal sin of posting before I have gone back and read the entire thread, I will shut up and go back and read) :-D
Edit: If the Amiga community wants to move forward, each and every one of us had better become programming wizards and start coding 24/7 in ways that make programmers for all other platforms look like children in grade school in comparison. Maybe then we can inch forward on the path to catch up.
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amigadave,
Your right about more coders, I'm not sure this ole boy can get with that program, "Pun intended".
Do you think an old rookie like me can grasp the concept?
If you really think so I'll have a look.
Chris
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QuikSanz wrote:
amigadave,
Your right about more coders, I'm not sure this ole boy can get with that program, "Pun intended".
Do you think an old rookie like me can grasp the concept?
If you really think so I'll have a look.
Chris
I have to be almost as old or older than you, so if I can do it, anybody can! Also, you don't have to invent the wheel all by yourself. With just a little coding knowledge I think many of us can help with larger projects that are organized by others that are more experienced than ourselves.
Once we are shown how it is done by the experts, we gain knowledge and confidence and can write some programs ourselves, or in small groups. Since we are so far behind other platforms, we can help a lot by porting programs from those more advanced platforms to the Amiga, or Morph OSes (or both). Porting programs from other OSes will also teach us a lot about programming in general and is one of the ways for beginning programmers to learn a lot about how things have been done in the past.
We have to start somewhere, so start at the beginning and you only have one direction to go, and that is UP! Old does not have to mean obsolete, just look at the age of our Amigas, they are not obsolete yet. :lol:
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@amigadave,
When I was in 7th grade i took a class at the local collage. A BIG room full of racks of stuff with tape drives and cake looking hard drives. It took till I was in the 30's that I got back to it. Now I consider myself a well, ahem, seasoned user. :-D
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Has anyone ever made a list of Hardware and software people?
Hardware: Dennis,Illuwatar,Yaqube
Software:?
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amigadave wrote:
>What modern programs for banking, word processing, spreadsheets, etc. that are compatible with worldwide standards (which means Microsoft Word & Excel) will AmigaOS4/5 have to compete with Mac, Windows, or Linux?
>Answer: NONE!
Bingo! If Amiga Inc would pay their Indian programmers to make an updated Office Productivity package rather than flush money on .Net programs then their other investment in AmigaOS4 would pay better ROI.
Anyhow, at this point, new or updated applications should be the number one priority of the AmigaOS community. What good is a Yacht without enough money for fuel? Likewise, what's a good AmigaOS4 without good programs to fuel its demand. And why get another yacht if you still don't have fuel for the new one--what good is AmigaOS on a new platform without applications. If modern applications are available, then porting to another platform is understandable, but until then focus on application development.
>Edit: If the Amiga community wants to move forward, each and every one of us had better become programming wizards and start coding 24/7 in ways that make programmers for all other platforms look like children in grade school in comparison. Maybe then we can inch forward on the path to catch up.
Along this line I also think, and I'm sure I'll get flamed for it, but I think AROS should stop development for now and apply all their efforts in making and updating AmigaOS applications instead. I tested Aros, and honestly I wasn't impressed. IMO, AmigaForever is a better alternative, and it's commercial. Why put forth effort duplicating something (AmigaOS) that doesn't have decent applications to emulate, especially when a commercial emulator is available that's, IMO, better anyways at this point in time.
I for one have put StormC 4 on my "to buy" list so I can port some of my games over to AmigaOS. And I hope Hyperion wins the court case so I can buy AmigaOS 4 and new PPC hardware because I can't get OS4 now due to hardware restrictions.
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I am of a different mind. AInc. has shown no interest in the Amiga for years. Even if they decided to throw everything they could at the Amiga, and did start to make headway, we would never know when they would decide to make another about face and abandon it again. I would rather see AROS turn it's attention to the MiniMig. Dennis freed us from the shackles of AInc hardware dependence. Yaqube is moving us forward at a remarkable pace. The only thing that still makes AInc even a consideration is the KickStart and Workbench. If AROS could free us from that, we would still be a decade and a half behind, but we would at least be free from dragging the comatose corpse of AInc behind us. I have no doubt that if the MiniMig could be sold with an OS and a few basic apps pre-installed, we would see more interest. With that interest, we would see not only more applications, but more improvements to the OS AND improvements to the hardware.
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We could establish a minimal starting point by creating a kickstart/workbench that at least could get games and demos started.
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Regarding the PS3:
It has only 256 megs of RAM and so Linux doesn't run well on it. MacOSX and Windows aren't even available for it either.
I have a friend named Joel with a PS3 and he's sick of running Linux distros that are designed for lightweight hardware just because of the memory footprint. He'd like to see AROS or something small running on it so that the apps will run smoothly without constantly swapping to the hard drive.
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trekiej wrote:
Has anyone ever made a list of Hardware and software people?
Hardware: Dennis,Illuwatar,Yaqube
Jens, Jeri, myself....
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Belial6 wrote:
I am of a different mind. AInc. has shown no interest in the Amiga for years. Even if they decided to throw everything they could at the Amiga, and did start to make headway, we would never know when they would decide to make another about face and abandon it again. I would rather see AROS turn it's attention to the MiniMig. Dennis freed us from the shackles of AInc hardware dependence. Yaqube is moving us forward at a remarkable pace. The only thing that still makes AInc even a consideration is the KickStart and Workbench. If AROS could free us from that, we would still be a decade and a half behind, but we would at least be free from dragging the comatose corpse of AInc behind us. I have no doubt that if the MiniMig could be sold with an OS and a few basic apps pre-installed, we would see more interest. With that interest, we would see not only more applications, but more improvements to the OS AND improvements to the hardware.
Hear hear! I started such work, but then someone else said they were so I stopped else step on toes, instead worked on porting it to the SPARC, but now, no idea how the m68k port is going. (SPARC is about 40% done tho)
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Pretty much is the point, Amiga Inc has been around since 2001 and has yet to produce a single classic Amiga compatible product. They sell PC games, they claim to have a version of Tao Intent called Amiga Anywhere but no place to buy it and it doesn't appear to run on classic Amigas either. My guess is that Amiga Inc has blown it's wad on lawsuits and is basically just a small consulting company in India focusing on dotNet.
They used to be prolific producers of press releases but even those ended in February, to count on them for anything is IMHO a horrible mistake.
We have the code for AROS, it's open source. Finish the port to X86, built a classic mode emulator in it to emulate the classic Amigas (like Apple did with classic Mac) and move forward from there.
Oh, and give up on world domination, it ain't gonna happen....
(http://www.geocities.com/yourstruly/smiley52.gif)
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persia wrote:
They sell PC games, they claim to have a version of Tao Intent called Amiga Anywhere but no place to buy it and it doesn't appear to run on classic Amigas either.
No, they don't have Tao anymore. Tao went out of business, and AInc lost their license when that happened.
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To answer to the topic: NO, it's NOT inevitable!
There are/will NOT be any new amigas; Amiga is a dead platform, get over it!
You CAN, if u wish, enjoy your old Commodore Amiga, but please don't believe false promises by companies whose sole objective is to steal money from honest enthusiasts of the platform.
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0amigan0 wrote:
To answer to the topic: NO, it's NOT inevitable!
There are/will NOT be any new amigas; Amiga is a dead platform, get over it!
You CAN, if u wish, enjoy your old Commodore Amiga, but please don't believe false promises by companies whose sole objective is to steal money from honest enthusiasts of the platform.
Well, that is just plain wrong. I bought a brand spanking new Amiga just this year. It was not only newley produced, but also a completely new design. Of course, that is why I would like to see AROS running on it. Because I don't want a single point of failure for moving the platform forward.
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Hear hear! I started such work, but then someone else said they were so I stopped else step on toes, instead worked on porting it to the SPARC, but now, no idea how the m68k port is going. (SPARC is about 40% done tho)
I had not realized that someone took that bounty. That is very good news indeed. If bheron drops the ball (which I really hope he does not) please, please reconsider doing the 68k port. The MiniMig is on a roll, and having I believe that having it's own, open source OS would help snowball it's success.
At the point that AROS runs on the MiniMig, we have an actual 'Platform'. It is no longer technically a 'retro' platform.
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Belial6 wrote:
Hear hear! I started such work, but then someone else said they were so I stopped else step on toes, instead worked on porting it to the SPARC, but now, no idea how the m68k port is going. (SPARC is about 40% done tho)
I had not realized that someone took that bounty. That is very good news indeed. If bheron drops the ball (which I really hope he does not) please, please reconsider doing the 68k port. The MiniMig is on a roll, and having I believe that having it's own, open source OS would help snowball it's success.
At the point that AROS runs on the MiniMig, we have an actual 'Platform'. It is no longer technically a 'retro' platform.
Well, doing the SPARC is helping me learn, so quite possible to do. Incidentally, SPARC CPU's have been successfully emulating m68k's since the mid 80's, which opens up other options as well.
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There's a SPARC based laptop from http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/products/notebooks.asp
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been a few SPARC laptops over the years. Sun even developed a SPARC based PDA once. I built myself a SPARC based MP3 player.
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alexh wrote:
Steril707 wrote:
That's why i compared the PS3 of today to the Amiga of my childhood.
Always getting poor second rate ports of Xbox 360 titles which never use any of the PS3's custom hardware?
Just like the early Amiga days getting crappy Atari ST ports. Yeah I can see your point.
Unlike Atari ST, Xbox 360 includes a competent GPU design.
Lets hope as time goes on the programmers embrace the PS3 and actually use some of it's features.
On same token, PS3 RSX GPU is missing features from XBOX360's Xenos GPU e.g. tessellation unit, global illumination unit. These functional units reduce the work load on the available shader resource.
CELL's 6 SPUs can be brought over and fix RSX issues.
For example,
http://research.scea.com/ps3_deferred_shading.pdf
Unreal3(e.g. UT3) engine uses deferred shading btw.
Since PS3's RSX GPU is based on G7x family, refer to
http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_37100.html
Refer to Page 30, Figure 22. Refer to above Sony link as a fix i.e. doing pixel shader work on 5 SPUs.
Notice the design issues with G7x GPU in relation to concurrent pixel shader and texture operations. By default, G7x’s pixel shader performance is reduced. This NVIDIA document shows the design issues with G7x GPU when compared to G8x GPU e.g. Early-Z, shader branch, vertex instancing, available vertex resource and 'etc'.
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3128&p=3
Notice Geforce 7950 lost against Geforce 8600GTS in UT3.
RSX basically is an 8 ROP version G71 i.e. cut down version.
Again, 6 SPUs can be brought over and "fix" G7x's design issues e.g. vertex shader, pixel shader, tessellation, global illumination, Early-Z cull and 'etc'.
X360's Xenos GPU doesn’t have same design issues as G7x.
It would be unwise to compare X360 vs PS3 as Amiga(GPU centric) vs Atari ST (CPU centric)
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On the point about Aros. It's good it exists, and it's a slow crawl to a completely working OS anyway. Imagine Hyperion and the company doing Morphos decide to stop developing for their OSes suddenly. Maybe one day all the Amiga might have left is Aros...
I know things like the AROS port to the Efika happen because there are bounties for them, but considering there is a PPC designs like the PS3, which has a couple of millions of users around the world compared to those hundreds of Efikas around, I sometimes wonder if the Amigacommunity just wants to fail.
And compared to the last few years (I started being interested in the Amiga again in 2005), there is finally an abundance of possibilities happening in the Amiga hardware scene again, like the Minimig, Morphos on Efika, Amiga Os4 on the Sam440, and for the future i see a lot of other interesting stuff, like Clone A and Natami that might happen.
The future doesn't look too dark anymore... :)
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Steril707 wrote:
>The future doesn't look too dark anymore... :)
I agree.
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I say give me a highly expandable platform.
Lots of slots for add on cards. I'll choose what I want, either a graphics powerhouse or RAID server.
As for CPU, whatever. all are quite well done these days. I like the Cell idea, but most important to me is expandability. I may not want what the guy next door has. Keeps the cost down not having to add all that extra stuff in, and they can sell me additional cards to do the things I want like TV, Firewire, Graphics, RAId etc etc.
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@Beast96GT
Well, I guess the New Amiga is here (The ACube PPC with AmigaOS 4.1), and the original question has been answered and is now reality. Now, put up or shutup.
All hail Hyperion.