Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: sim085 on August 26, 2008, 03:54:08 PM
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Hi,
I know some people may have already asked this question but I was wondering one thing. If Commodore did not get bankrupt and it still continued producing computers then what would be getting an Amiga?
Would we buying a PC branded as an Amiga such as there are PC’s branded as DELL and Scan? Would we be buying some super computer like some Sun or HP server? Or else would we be buying some game console like the Play station, Wii, and Xbox? Or maybe Commodore would have scraped the name in favour of their name?
Regards,
Sim085
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Commodore branded holographic screens would be nice ... maybe even total immersion computers/consoles with a nanoscopic super duper AGA (A^6) chipset we plug directly into our heads.
Must stop watching these sci-fi films ... getting too many wild ideas :lol:
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Probably it won't be much different than an A1.
Varthall
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A Commodore 64 with a lot of memory and on steroids.
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@sim085
Amiga OS 4.1.
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The AAA chipset was going to get canned and Commodore was thinking of dropping their own operating system in favor of the PowerPC version of Windows NT. Even if they hadn't gone belly-up they still would have made a terrible mess of things and still gotten it wrong. Management at Commodore towards the end was outright anti-Amiga and pro-PC.
My opinion: Commodore was doomed in many ways at once. It would have gone under one way or another anyhow.
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I think it would closely resemble an SGI. Custom high end graphic chipset, fast I/O bus and a unix-based OS.
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@Varthall
Agreed.
OS4.1 w/ better CPU speed/architecture... Probably X86... Although I understand why its for PPC even if it seems daft now (PowerPC is obviously the next logical progression of the 68K family)..
4.0/4.1 really are all that *most* people would want in a modern AmigaOS (I'm talking OS not application wise here)... It's only the legal & hardware situation thats halting things.
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That`s easy - It would be the PS3 without a shadow of a doubt.
The PS3 is the CD32 taken to it`s natural conclusion.
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
The AAA chipset was going to get canned and Commodore was thinking of dropping their own operating system in favor of the PowerPC version of Windows NT. Even if they hadn't gone belly-up they still would have made a terrible mess of things and still gotten it wrong. Management at Commodore towards the end was outright anti-Amiga and pro-PC.
My opinion: Commodore was doomed in many ways at once. It would have gone under one way or another anyhow.
I agree with you mostly... but Both Haynie and Ludwig have said that the PPC was not a choice for the future of Amiga... it was dropped early on in development meetings... HP's PA-RISC was the choice...
Custom Chipsets were on the way out, and yeah NT was in as far as Commodore was concerned. The Amiga as we know it would have faded out after the 1992 machines :-)
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It depends, if they had released AGA with the A3000 (instead of the ECS) then the amiga could have competed with PC VGA graphic cards. But who knows if the top brass at commodore would had invested in a fully 3D chipset, if they did not they would have lost to 3D just the same as the amiga lost to 256 color graphics.
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bloodline wrote:
SamuraiCrow wrote:
The AAA chipset was going to get canned and Commodore was thinking of dropping their own operating system in favor of the PowerPC version of Windows NT. Even if they hadn't gone belly-up they still would have made a terrible mess of things and still gotten it wrong. Management at Commodore towards the end was outright anti-Amiga and pro-PC.
My opinion: Commodore was doomed in many ways at once. It would have gone under one way or another anyhow.
I agree with you mostly... but Both Haynie and Ludwig have said that the PPC was not a choice for the future of Amiga... it was dropped early on in development meetings... HP's PA-RISC was the choice...
Custom Chipsets were on the way out, and yeah NT was in as far as Commodore was concerned. The Amiga as we know it would have faded out after the 1992 machines :-)
The Amiga was doomed almost from the very start when so little chipset advancement was made between the A1000 and the A500/A2000 and again almost no graphic advancement from the A500/A2000 to the A3000. As has been repeated over and over again, AGA was "too little too late" and the A4000/A1200 was almost an embarrassment to the Amiga community, as most of us knew very well that the PC and Mac were not only catching up by the time the A4000/A1200 was released, but that they had already surpassed them in many ways.
Commodore management appears to never have taken the Amiga seriously and just made one bad decision after another and never fully funded the kind of development needed to keep the Amiga ahead of other platforms, where it should have stayed and could have easily stayed, if only they had not wasted all their development money trying to compete with the dozens of other PC manufacturers (where they lost horribly and killed the Commodore cash cow that had been created by the C64).
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
The AAA chipset was going to get canned
I doubt it would have been very impressive by the time Commodore would have finally shipped machines with the AAA chipset.
and Commodore was thinking of dropping their own operating system in favor of the PowerPC version of Windows NT.
Windows NT had worse software support then the Amiga at the time, what would haven been the bloody point?
Even if they hadn't gone belly-up they still would have made a terrible mess of things and still gotten it wrong. Management at Commodore towards the end was outright anti-Amiga and pro-PC.
I thought Commodore didn't really make much money off IBM clones.
My opinion: Commodore was doomed in many ways at once. It would have gone under one way or another anyhow.
Well the CD-32 was selling, maybe Commodore would have become a game console company and then got crushed like Atari when the PSX finally launched.
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If Commodore hadn't tanked, they would likely rule the console game market. Instead of XBOX and PS3 we'd have the Amiga CD128 console (DVD128?).
The remaining line of Amiga computers would be high-end graphics stations and NL video editors. Lower end systems would be targeted at gamers and musicians.
And yes, I would definitely see a full line of Commodore x86 machines for Joe user. Remember they did have x86 based business machines.
Mostly I think Commodore would be where Apple is today, perhaps even more so. Perhaps they would have swallowed up Apple by now.
I don't think Amigas would ever have pushed out x86 PCs as the most popular platform tho. x86 got where it is today by being cheap and relatively open as far as hardware. Anyone can manufacture and sell PCs and parts. That's always been the edge.
In short, Commodore would be a combination of Sony and Apple.
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I can tell that for me Amiga could be only slightly faster, so my icons would show in screen is real time ;), and I could play mp3 and DVD's using some hardware "acceleration".
Other part of Amiga "future" is in mighty hands of programmers...
70% people could use a "notepad" for writing a documents, 15% could use FinalWriter from 1995 for putting the tables and pictures and basic formatting of fonts, rest could use PageStream 3.0.
Development of computers/electronics is a crap. Now, we can talk.
:D
For me they could produce a A1200/4000 board even today, the same.
My old "CRAPPY" Amiga is taking amazing... 100W (maybe?), today mighty PC based on the most strict ecological crap is like 300W (some even 1000W) WOW. This is development!
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Psy wrote:
Well the CD-32 was selling, maybe Commodore would have become a game console company and then got crushed like Atari when the PSX finally launched.
I'm pretty sure the idea for Playstation came from the CD32 (and the somewhat inferior Sega CD).
Alas, they couldn't make enough CD32s to matter. They just didn't have the capital and supply chain they needed anymore.
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Pyromania wrote:
@sim085
Amiga OS 4.1.
:pint:
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Quote "I'm pretty sure the idea for Playstation came from the CD32 (and the somewhat inferior Sega CD).
Alas, they couldn't make enough CD32s to matter. They just didn't have the capital and supply chain they needed anymore."
The PS1 came from Nintendo.
Nintendo joined up with sony to develop a CDrom Add-on for the N64 to compete with the SegaCD, However they couldn't agree on the licensing terms.
Therefore sony went of and mad the PS1
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70% people could use a "notepad" for writing a documents, 15% could use FinalWriter from 1995 for putting the tables and pictures and basic formatting of fonts, rest could use PageStream 3.0.
I still use FinalWriter '97 and Pagestream. It does the job.. and loads VERY fast on an '060.
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The PS1 came from Nintendo.
Nintendo joined up with sony to develop a CDrom Add-on for the N64 to compete with the SegaCD, However they couldn't agree on the licensing terms.
Therefore sony went of and mad the PS1
You mean SNES not N64
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@ Psy & r6stu
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation)
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ZeBeeDee wrote:
Commodore branded holographic screens would be nice ... maybe even total immersion computers/consoles with a nanoscopic super duper AGA (A^6) chipset we plug directly into our heads.
Must stop watching these sci-fi films ... getting too many wild ideas :lol:
Nono, don't stop, go on, go on...
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Nono, don't stop, go on, go on...
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!! :lol:
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ZeBeeDee wrote:
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Nono, don't stop, go on, go on...
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!! :lol:
That's more a like a sentence to use in the ultimate camp thread :lol:
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An Amiga 6000, 7000, 8000 with M68900@1 ghz (two cores), zorro V or IV, Super AAA chipset (vga and 15 Khz), 512 Mb chip 1,5 Gb fast WB 8.0.... It's a dream...
Seriously, i think something between mac and sgi.
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Amiga would look like like the people who would buy it...
Conclusion?
Amiga would look like... PC, Playstation etc.
:-D
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
ZeBeeDee wrote:
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Nono, don't stop, go on, go on...
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!! :lol:
That's more a like a sentence to use in the ultimate camp thread :lol:
You can use it, I won't copyright it lol
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Instead of AGA, this would be a Geforce8800 but the name would be AmigaForce8800 (be with you!)
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ZeBeeDee wrote:
You can use it, I won't copyright it lol
I already did, when ADZ used his special powers in that thread :lol:
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
ZeBeeDee wrote:
You can use it, I won't copyright it lol
I already did, when ADZ used his special powers in that thread :lol:
Dammit! Foiled again! :lol:
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Tension wrote:
That`s easy - It would be the PS3 without a shadow of a doubt.
The PS3 is the CD32 taken to it`s natural conclusion.
The ultimate incompetent, botched console launch? :roll:
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uncharted wrote:
The ultimate incompetent, botched console launch? :roll:
Sounds a whole lot like Escom and Gateway when they had their claws in the Miggy
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pan1k wrote:
70% people could use a "notepad" for writing a documents, 15% could use FinalWriter from 1995 for putting the tables and pictures and basic formatting of fonts, rest could use PageStream 3.0.
I still use FinalWriter '97 and Pagestream. It does the job.. and loads VERY fast on an '060.
My Dad just wrote to me and my sister for advice about getting a new computer. He is 78 now and did not get a computer until I gave him an A3000 some time around 1998 or so. He used it for about a year before it became necessary for him to get a Windows computer to share files with his work and friends and better Internet access. He then bought an eMachine (can't remember the specs) that he still uses today and I loaded FinalWriter for Windows on it for him as he was familiar with FinalWriter 97 on the A3000.
Well now that he wants a new computer he is concerned that his Family Tree software and his word processor (FinalWriter) won't work on the new computer. I told him to go to WalMart or Costco and buy a new computer as that would probably be the best bang for his buck and satisfy his computing needs, but he has a local shop that wants to build him a computer. I am afraid that they are going to gouge him with an out of date machine for a middle of the road price. He did not like my suggestion of going with a Dell as he had heard stories of bad reliability.
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If you take a serious look at what Commodore had for partnerships at the time, You would have seen that HP was their biggest supporter,and had a agreement over Hombre to use in the HP lowend workstations. If CBM could have stayed alive even just 2 more years,HP would have eventually bought them out or taken over. The Amiga would have probably be dropped from HP's consumer line, but evolved into HP's Work Station line, running NT and HP-Unix as OS's. I doubt that little more than the name would have survived to this day, with cost reduction measures dropping the Zorro slots in favor of ISA to PCI etc. Many of the processes and such might have survived to this day, but it would still just have been a fawn memory in HP's past.
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@ amigadave
My suggestion? Take your father to Walmart and/or Costco and let him get a feel for the various machines on offer. Find out which one he likes best and feels comfortable with.
Perhaps a laptop (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9721023) might be the way to go.
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pan1k wrote:
I think it would closely resemble an SGI. Custom high end graphic chipset, fast I/O bus and a unix-based OS.
... and bankrupt.
Then maybe revived as a Linux on x86 vendor.
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I'd say C= would have merged in Amiga with x86 line. You would probably have seen C= x86 SMP machines running either/both AOS-SMP and some flavor of Linux early on with nVidia gfx cards for the big boxes, C= x86 laptops and Walmart level x86 or ARM wedges for ultra low end.
Dammy
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Commodore eh? Aren't they the company who make the internet ready Eva-Clean(TM) virtual reality groinal attachments?
Their original "Boing ya Balls" model having been recalled due to in field malfunctions which resulted in a multi-billion dollar law suit.
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uncharted wrote:
Tension wrote:
That`s easy - It would be the PS3 without a shadow of a doubt.
The PS3 is the CD32 taken to it`s natural conclusion.
The ultimate incompetent, botched console launch? :roll:
Sorry you can't beat Sega's incompetence during the North American launch of Sega Saturn. Sega's surprised launched caught retailers, developers and Sega fans totally off guard. Lets not forget this is also around the time Sega launched the Sega Nomad with zero marketing.
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alexh wrote:
Commodore eh? Aren't they the company who make the internet ready Eva-Clean(TM) virtual reality groinal attachments?
Their original "Boing ya Balls" model having been recalled to to in field malfunctions which resulted in a multi-billion dollar law suit.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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amigadave wrote:
pan1k wrote:
70% people could use a "notepad" for writing a documents, 15% could use FinalWriter from 1995 for putting the tables and pictures and basic formatting of fonts, rest could use PageStream 3.0.
I still use FinalWriter '97 and Pagestream. It does the job.. and loads VERY fast on an '060.
My Dad just wrote to me and my sister for advice about getting a new computer. He is 78 now and did not get a computer until I gave him an A3000 some time around 1998 or so. He used it for about a year before it became necessary for him to get a Windows computer to share files with his work and friends and better Internet access. He then bought an eMachine (can't remember the specs) that he still uses today and I loaded FinalWriter for Windows on it for him as he was familiar with FinalWriter 97 on the A3000.
Well now that he wants a new computer he is concerned that his Family Tree software and his word processor (FinalWriter) won't work on the new computer. I told him to go to WalMart or Costco and buy a new computer as that would probably be the best bang for his buck and satisfy his computing needs, but he has a local shop that wants to build him a computer. I am afraid that they are going to gouge him with an out of date machine for a middle of the road price. He did not like my suggestion of going with a Dell as he had heard stories of bad reliability.
So, the described problem is software not a hardware.
Someone is "making" us (makes us jerks - is it write spelling?) to change hardware (than software) since the text is written Office 2003 is not compatible with the text written in Office 2007 (or FinalWriter), and this programs are not compatible (of course!) with any "Amiga" writing programs.
BTW. Think about any crappy format you want... music, video or pictures etc.
Please do not focus on text. I know that I don't have to change computer to run Office 2007... ;) :crazy:
Nobody cares about user, thay just make money on people. What the Office 2007 cost like $200 (and 100000 people work for that crap) but Hollywood and Page Stream cost $100 each and only couple of guys work on that?
Just compare this software, functionality. :roll:
Sure there are "some" compatibility patches...
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kreciu wrote:
Someone is "making" us
Nobody is 'making' you ... YOU see it, YOU want it, YOU buy it ...
It's called supply and demand ... the more people want, the more the companies will strive to deliver the goods.
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quarkx wrote:
If you take a serious look at what Commodore had for partnerships at the time, You would have seen that HP was their biggest supporter,and had a agreement over Hombre to use in the HP low end workstations. If CBM could have stayed alive even just 2 more years,HP would have eventually bought them out or taken over. The Amiga would have probably be dropped from HP's consumer line, but evolved into HP's Work Station line, running NT and HP-Unix as OS's. I doubt that little more than the name would have survived to this day, with cost reduction measures dropping the Zorro slots in favor of ISA to PCI etc.
I agree 100%. CBM would eventually have merged with someone larger unless they happened to get as technologically lucky a 3rd time as they did when they acquired Amiga and M.O.S. at just the right moments. Even then, this new direction may not have been towards a newer/better PC. Remember how they wanted to control a share of the calculator market by buying M.O.S. but coincidentally found themselves on the verge of a strong position in the home computer market? With their position in the market they may have attempted to gain some video technology and lucked into buying (for example) an up and coming cell phone technology.
It's also possible that had they lived they would have found a way to leverage some of their existing patents and produced their revenue by leeching off the rest of the industry. That's how some companies operate today.
Given that all non-x86 consumer PC systems are now gone it's a fair bet that Commodore/Amiga would have merged and faded into a larger entity. Like quarkx above says - it would not be surprising to see a larger name use their brand marks in one or two lines of computers. Sort of like HP still uses Compaq's name today.
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I'd like to think that it would been split 3 ways.
1) Some kind of small cheap low-powered but inovative console/mini-computer for gamers (like the Wii) that could run all the classic stuff.
2) A high-end graphics WS.
3) A X86 based OS.
Then again if they hadn't wasted so much time and money on getting into the PC market who knows, they might be more like Apples :-D
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I am certain that the Amiga would have devolved back into a video game console, as it was originally intended to be.
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How it would be ????
... It would be great !!! Only Amiga would make it possible !
Now for the serious part:
I believe it would be something similar to a PS3 with mouse and keyboard. Why?
-It is quite cheap.
-It is innovative and powerful
-It is a hell of a game machine also :lol:
-Doesn't this looks like A1200/A4000/CD32 way? Same platform for the cheap computer and the games console, plus the big box brother
They might have used a different processor. A PA-Risc perhaps, but with Commodore and Apple buying PPCs from IBM maybe the history could have been different and they might have ended up everyone together with Sony going to Cell, as the volume would raise.
They tried x86 PC market, and that was a bad experience to Commodore, so I believe a x86 Amiga is something they wouldn't try before 2000-something. With a Cell, x86 might even not be a good idea.
Who knows...
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It'd be nothing but a brand name on cheap x86 notebooks and desktops running Vista. Like Compaq, Dell, etc.
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ZeBeeDee wrote:
kreciu wrote:
Someone is "making" us
Nobody is 'making' you ... YOU see it, YOU want it, YOU buy it ...
It's called supply and demand ... the more people want, the more the companies will strive to deliver the goods.
Nope, I'm out of this :crazy: circle. It's called free choice. There are some people who do not want to follow just their own egoism, and demand of faster, easier in any cost, just give me more please...
BUT in this whole process you mentioned...
First You SEE IT?
So, first the company advertise you new peace of {bleep} and YOU BUY IT :). (The "you" think... is not You! ;) ).
So, someone is creating new needs for people who think that thay can't leave today without GPS in their Ipod, cell phone. Kids (also bisnesssss man) have to have a "8Mpix" digital camera in the cell phone... people are like a hord of scheeps... :P... baa, baa, baa I need new Ipod ;), faster graphic card etc.
Today I can get free 22" Dell monitor, nobody is using it any more...10 year ago some would steel it... and go to prizon for this peace of plastic and glass...
They are in perfect condition! Why we dispose working hardware? To make more space on computer table? Now small experiment, how many space is behind your monitor? This what I'm working now (library) around 40 cm. Great "saving" of space... baa, baa, baa, baa (it is good English "sound").
We develop new compression formats... why we need 1T HDD? Paula after 15 years sounds like X-FI for $100. It's a "bull {bleep}" :lol:
BTW. Why we need soooo long tables for computers? Becouse we like to strait our legs under the tables!! :Hahaha: And putting the monitor to far back makes it not visable, so "we need to" buy a 24" LCD but than we can see the corners so "we need" to go back... :crazy:
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What would an Amiga be today?
Running an Intel Core 2 based CPU and Intel based chipset no doubt.
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Varthall wrote:
Probably it won't be much different than an A1.
Varthall
What?? Stuck back in the 90's? I doubt it. Wasn't the Amiga supposed to be ahead of the times?
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There was no winning scenario for the Amiga, it was a beautiful dream, it was so impossible that there isn't even a parallel world where Commodore or Amiga are still in existence.
The Amiga graphics card was built onto the motherboard so it couldn't be easily upgraded and they tried to do the speciality chips themselves. It was a closed system. There was no development money to advance the OS.
Amiga Inc knows this, that's why they know the "only way to win is not to play.."
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/valentine/guitar-play.gif)
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persia wrote:
The Amiga graphics card was built onto the motherboard so it couldn't be easily upgraded and they tried to do the speciality chips themselves. It was a closed system. There was no development money to advance the OS.
Actually, according to Brian Bagnail's book the Hombre' GPU would have been on a separate card so they could slip them into the HP work stations- it also looks like a "Joint" venture between HP and CBM, both funding R&D for it. But really who knows anymore. I am sure that even HP has no records of the dealings they had with CBM anymore.
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kreciu wrote:
I can tell that for me Amiga could be only slightly faster, so my icons would show in screen is real time ;), and I could play mp3 and DVD's using some hardware "acceleration".
Other part of Amiga "future" is in mighty hands of programmers...
70% people could use a "notepad" for writing a documents, 15% could use FinalWriter from 1995 for putting the tables and pictures and basic formatting of fonts, rest could use PageStream 3.0.
Development of computers/electronics is a crap. Now, we can talk.
:D
For me they could produce a A1200/4000 board even today, the same.
My old "CRAPPY" Amiga is taking amazing... 100W (maybe?), today mighty PC based on the most strict ecological crap is like 300W (some even 1000W) WOW. This is development!
What the {bleep} does that mean? I`ve read it twice now and still can`t make any sense of it?
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This means that today people eat, buy, do what the mighty TV, newspapers, advertisement will tell them to do etc... and they are free? Children "attached" permanently to TV's with game consoles, game pads ... "killing, shooting, and destroying "monsters" in "real 3D". Parents exited in buying new 100" LCD TV and watching football game. Live "on cell phone", people who can't live without it.
The question is what kind of new value give us new computers? Can we do something better, productive today that 15 years ago, or even 1000?
Value which is improving the life truly and fully, value which make life different than in past.
What development of computers change in human nature, how it helped in personal development?
Simple questions, even my poor English is able to express this issues...
BTW. Do we really need internet connection in our fridge? :crazy:
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adz wrote:
What?? Stuck back in the 90's? I doubt it. Wasn't the Amiga supposed to be ahead of the times?
This is a common misconception.
From the time the Amiga was introduced as Lorraine in 1984, up until 1988, it enjoyed the enviable position of being well ahead of everything in its price class, as well as ahead of computers well above its price class. It truly was ahead of its time.
By the time 1988 rolled around, the PC world had VGA graphics and OS/2 (a multitasking operating system). I don't even consider the Mac a contender, as it never properly multitasked until well into the late 90's. However, the Amiga had been around for a few years, so it had a definite price advantage. It also had the distinct advantage of being able to work directly with standard television signals, which helped Amiga find its niche market.
By the time 1990 rolled around, PC technology was coming down in price. Amiga was still relatively competitive with the A500, but the gap was closing fast. Commodore's response was the A3000, which was not at all competitive with VGA. It was basically the exact same video hardware but with the ability to address more memory. We did get some improvements with Workbench 2.04, but only to the extent to bring it up to par; there was nothing groundbreaking. Interestingly, we got CDTV, which showed some innovation still existed at Commodore, at least as far as marketing the Amiga was concerned; it was still, for all intents and purposes, an Amiga 500 with a CD-ROM drive.
We finally saw AGA in 1992, but as you can imagine, it was too little, too late. By this time, VGA cards came standard even in the cheapest PC's, and were cheap upgrades for existing PC's. New standards such as SVGA pushed the boundaries even further out of Amiga's reach, even with AGA. OS/2 2.00 was released. The Macintosh still couldn't multitask, but it too sported more advanced graphic capabilities.
I'd say the Amiga peaked in the late 80's from its own momentum; after that, Commodore mismanaged it to death. Honestly, I wish Commodore had come out with a 16 bit variation of the Commodore 64/128 instead (the mythical Commodore 65), and Amiga had stayed with its original designers.
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The question is what kind of new value give us new computers? Can we do something better, productive today that 15 years ago, or even 1000?
Value which is improving the life truly and fully, value which make life different than in past.
What development of computers change in human nature, how it helped in personal development?
Simple questions, even my poor English is able to express this issues...
Digital photography and digital video. The importance of accurately documenting history has proved to be a valuable tool in the advancement of our society. You know what they say; those who forget history are bound to repeat it. Modern computers networked together have also provided us with the ability to store vast amounts of data reliably and securely. We have surpassed the Library of Alexandria, but the information we store is now easily copied and duplicated. Each computer can become a virtual Library of Alexandria, so the information won't be lost to time.
On a personal level, I have learned a lot from web sites I've found on the internet; from how to fix a problem with my car, to how to make my own wine. There is a modern computer inside my GPS navigator, so now I don't get lost on those family vacations, which takes a lot of stress out of the trip. I am currently enrolled in a distance learning course, where I will obtain certification as an Electronics Technician. This type of learning and certification most certainly will enrich my life, and is made possible by modern computers.
I hope I have sufficiently answered your question.
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A more interesting question is would any of us actually be interested in a modern Amiga? The Amiga is part of an Elvis Presley/Marilyn Monroe world. It died young and better than anything out there. Or Perhaps James Dean. At any rate, the Amiga we know and love is frozen in time, it's a solid '80s computer in what is almost the '10s..
Would any of us love an Amiga that ran on eight core Xeon chips, had a BSD base, required at least 2 GB of RAM and used 512 Meg NVidia GForce 9500 video cards? Isn't part of the charm of the Amiga that we use last century ideas like Megabytles of RAM, hard disks smaller than a DVD and floppy disks?
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@DigitalQ
Information is not a new value. Did you hear saying: "The history is written by this who won the battles", or that "History is written by historians"?
Soon nobody will have to go out of the house, to feed it's own virtual pet, water virtual plant, nutrients will be provided by "pipes" directly to you system... ups. I started describing matrix? What the "brilliant" idea, lets make a movie about that?
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persia wrote:
A more interesting question is would any of us actually be interested in a modern Amiga?
I do! As long as it is still an Amiga at it´s heart and not just another PC clone.
Elvis still rules! :-D
By the way... Back in 92 SVGA boards were quite slow... AGA was not that bad compared to them, but was showing (fast) it´s age. Commodore was aiming at RTG also at some point in future.
And Windows multitasking was crappy until Win98, many years ahead.
AAA was developed before AGA, so it seems that the big problem was Commodore management, as always. There was some chance to keep it competitive if they went the right way :-(
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persia wrote:
Amiga Inc knows this, that's why they know the "only way to win is not to play.."
Thank you Joshua
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It would rock if IBM Compats just faded away and we had a 3 way battle between the Commodore Amiga, Apple Macintosh and Sharp X68000 that still raged on to this day. Then we could still {bleep} about which computers is the best while all of them still being pretty good.
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Would we buying a PC branded as an Amiga such as there are PC’s branded as DELL and Scan?
Like Apple, today's Amigas would probably be pretty much standard PCs branded as Amiga. However, also like Apple, marketing could still distinguish them from being "PCs". They might also have some minor differences so they weren't "IBM compatible" PCs as such.
The OS would either be one of today's existing OSs, or possibly they might do as Apple did, and modify another existing one. Either way, it would probably not be the classic AmigaOS. Moreover, I would _hope_ it wasn't, due to the deficiencies such as lacking memory protection. Do today's Mac fans wish they were still running the original MacOS, or today's Windows fans wish they were still using DOS/Win 9x, instead of the NT derived Windows?
Didn't Commodore have plans, shortly before going bust, for new Amigas to be using HP RISC processors, running Windows NT? If that had happened, the break from the "classic" line would have been far sooner.
If you want an Amiga of today, just get a PC, slap an Amiga sticker on it, and run UAE if you need some backwards compatibility. It's just as much an Amiga as today's Macs are to the classic Macs ;)
SamuraiCrow wrote:
Management at Commodore towards the end was outright anti-Amiga and pro-PC.
But only in the same sense as Apple were "anti-Mac" for wanting to ditch the classic technology. However, no one looks at them this way. Similarly, if things had gone that route, no one would think of Commodore of being anti-Amiga (well, except for the few die hards who also thought an A500+ didn't count as an Amiga); rather, the new machines would be Amigas.
persia wrote:
The Amiga graphics card was built onto the motherboard so it couldn't be easily upgraded and they tried to do the speciality chips themselves. It was a closed system. There was no development money to advance the OS.
These days, an increasing number of PCs make do with only graphics on the motherboard, so in that sense PCs have become more Amiga-like. But yes, a Commodore of today would likely be using standard chipsets, rather than trying to make them themselves.
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mdwh2 wrote:
SamuraiCrow wrote:
Management at Commodore towards the end was outright anti-Amiga and pro-PC.
But only in the same sense as Apple were "anti-Mac" for wanting to ditch the classic technology. However, no one looks at them this way. Similarly, if things had gone that route, no one would think of Commodore of being anti-Amiga (well, except for the few die hards who also thought an A500+ didn't count as an Amiga); rather, the new machines would be Amigas.
I think he meant Anti-Amiga like how Bernie Stolar of Sega Of America was Anti-Saturn, saying that the Sega Saturn was not part of Sega's future in the middle of its product life and I wouldn't be surprised if Commodore management said something similar about Amiga.
Like Berine Stolar sabotaging the Sega Saturn's chance in market, I think Commodore managment was sabotaging the Amiga's chance in the market. Just look at how little devlopment the Amiga went through under Commodore.
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kreciu wrote:
@DigitalQ
Information is not a new value. Did you hear saying: "The history is written by this who won the battles", or that "History is written by historians"?
Ah, but it is the content and accuracy of that information that has improved, making that information that much more valuable. It is no longer controlled by the "State and Church," or, as you suggested, historians and conquerors. Modern computers have leveled the playing field. I have the power of the press at my fingertips, and can publish whatever I want.
You also need to address the fact that information today is not as volatile as it once was. Before computers, a fire could wipe out centuries of works. Indeed, the progress of mankind has probably been set back by such destruction. Who knows what great secrets were hidden in the Library of Alexandria? It has already been demonstrated that many of the discoveries made then had to be rediscovered.
kreciu wrote:
Soon nobody will have to go out of the house, to feed it's own virtual pet, water virtual plant, nutrients will be provided by "pipes" directly to you system... ups. I started describing matrix? What the "brilliant" idea, lets make a movie about that?
You are kidding, right? Much of the advancements in modern technology are getting people out there to discover their world. GPS navigators are showing people the way to some great historical sites and destinations they might not otherwise have seen. Their digital cameras have them out photographing nature in all her beauty.
The biggest advancements we see are in portable electronics. MP3 players, cellular telephones, laptop and handheld computers, portable gaming systems...clearly, people want to get out of their homes, which is contrary to your assertions.
Consider the sample pictures that come with Vista. Names such as "Forest Flowers," "Autumn Leaves," "Forest"...I have 15 sample pictures, all of which have to do with nature.
Another benefit is that computers and computer technology has led us to more efficient designs. We now have automobiles that can travel large distances while sipping a minimal amount of fuel. We have much more energy efficient appliances, and more efficient and safer ways of cooking our food.
No doubt that modern advancements in computers and technology is a double-edged sword. However, people will ultimately choose what is best for them.
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kreciu wrote:
This means that today people eat, buy, do what the mighty TV, newspapers, advertisement will tell them to do etc... and they are free? Children "attached" permanently to TV's with game consoles, game pads ... "killing, shooting, and destroying "monsters" in "real 3D". Parents exited in buying new 100" LCD TV and watching football game. Live "on cell phone", people who can't live without it.
I am amused that you criticise new technology by posting about it on a web board - shouldn't you be out being free in the real world, rather than being permanently attached to the Internet with it telling you what to do? ;)
The question is what kind of new value give us new computers? Can we do something better, productive today that 15 years ago, or even 1000?
Of course we can. For any meaningful definition of productivity, it has increased in the last 1,000 years, and in the last 15 too. How that translates into quality of life, or whether that means people are happier or not, are another matter (although I know I'd rather be living in a nice warm flat, being able to use computers and the Internet in my large amounts of leisure time - as opposed spending all day living in cold mud trying to grow minimal amounts of food just to stop myself starving...)
What development of computers change in human nature, how it helped in personal development?
Well, let's start with you - presumably you must like using the Internet, if you're here?
What else do you use the Internet for? What work do you do, or what interests do you have?
For me, my interest and livelihood of programming wouldn't be possible without computers. The Internet makes things much easier, from buying or banking online, to organising my social life and keeping in touch with people. That's not to mention mobile phones - when I'm out, I can use them to contact people or access the Internet anywhere. I can call up maps anywhere on Earth, or listen to music without having to carry around 100s of tapes.
If you're better without technology, why do you use it?
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I think he meant Anti-Amiga like how Bernie Stolar of Sega Of America was Anti-Saturn, saying that the Sega Saturn was not part of Sega's future in the middle of its product life and I wouldn't be surprised if Commodore management said something similar about Amiga.
Like Berine Stolar sabotaging the Sega Saturn's chance in market, I think Commodore managment was sabotaging the Amiga's chance in the market. Just look at how little devlopment the Amiga went through under Commodore.
On this, I disagree. Commodore was never an innovative computer company; rather, they were in it for the money. Prior to computers, they made office furniture; and before that, they made typewriters; which was after they were simply a typewriter repair shop in Toronto. They simply delivered whatever was in demand at the time. The PET was essentially a product of a company called MOS technologies. The wildly successful Commodore 64 was derived from that, and we can thank MOS engineers that sneaked things in like a synthesizer chip; because if Commodore had its way, that would never have happened. The logic behind Commodore's decisions was to deliver a product for the cheapest price. At that, they succeeded...the PET, Vic 20, and Commodore 64 were machines that undercut everything else on the market. Because of this, they were falling behind technologically. MOS was an 8 bit company; they needed a 16 bit company which turned out to be Amiga. They basically did with the Amiga what they did with the 8 bit Commodores. The A1000 was basically the PET, and the A500 was their C64. These strategies worked for about the same period of time they worked for their 8 bit years.
MOS were innovators. Amiga were innovators. The engineers from these companies that Commodore retained were innovators. By their very nature, Commodore was not an innovative company. What appeared to be sabotage was simply the only way they knew how to do business, which is, essentially, hack-and-slash the essentials while those at the top bled the company dry. Those in control did not know nor care for computers; they lacked vision beyond their bottom line. At one point, they actually relied on misinformation given to them by their competition (anyone remember the laptop Commodore?)
So, no genuine sabotage, except for the apparent sabotage which is natural with this way of doing business.
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DigitalQ wrote:
I think he meant Anti-Amiga like how Bernie Stolar of Sega Of America was Anti-Saturn, saying that the Sega Saturn was not part of Sega's future in the middle of its product life and I wouldn't be surprised if Commodore management said something similar about Amiga.
Like Berine Stolar sabotaging the Sega Saturn's chance in market, I think Commodore managment was sabotaging the Amiga's chance in the market. Just look at how little devlopment the Amiga went through under Commodore.
On this, I disagree. Commodore was never an innovative computer company; rather, they were in it for the money. Prior to computers, they made office furniture; and before that, they made typewriters; which was after they were simply a typewriter repair shop in Toronto. They simply delivered whatever was in demand at the time. The PET was essentially a product of a company called MOS technologies. The wildly successful Commodore 64 was derived from that, and we can thank MOS engineers that sneaked things in like a synthesizer chip; because if Commodore had its way, that would never have happened. The logic behind Commodore's decisions was to deliver a product for the cheapest price. At that, they succeeded...the PET, Vic 20, and Commodore 64 were machines that undercut everything else on the market. Because of this, they were falling behind technologically. MOS was an 8 bit company; they needed a 16 bit company which turned out to be Amiga. They basically did with the Amiga what they did with the 8 bit Commodores. The A1000 was basically the PET, and the A500 was their C64. These strategies worked for about the same period of time they worked for their 8 bit years.
MOS were innovators. Amiga were innovators. The engineers from these companies that Commodore retained were innovators. By their very nature, Commodore was not an innovative company. What appeared to be sabotage was simply the only way they knew how to do business, which is, essentially, hack-and-slash the essentials while those at the top bled the company dry. Those in control did not know nor care for computers; they lacked vision beyond their bottom line. At one point, they actually relied on misinformation given to them by their competition (anyone remember the laptop Commodore?)
So, no genuine sabotage, except for the apparent sabotage which is natural with this way of doing business.
Except Commodore went from the PET to Vic-20 to C64 to C128 then you had CBM 900 in the pipe when Commodore acquired Amiga so Commodore was innovating back then and at least reacting to its competitors.
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DigitalQ wrote:
adz wrote:
What?? Stuck back in the 90's? I doubt it. Wasn't the Amiga supposed to be ahead of the times?
This is a common misconception.
Nope, no misconception here, you just missed my point. I was referring to the technology that the AmigaOne is based on. Given that I was replying to a post regarding the AmigaOne, I figured it was pretty straight forward :roll:
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AeroMan wrote:
... Back in 92 SVGA boards were quite slow... AGA was not that bad compared to them, but was showing (fast) it´s age. Commodore was aiming at RTG also at some point in future.
And Windows multitasking was crappy until Win98, many years ahead.
AAA was developed before AGA, so it seems that the big problem was Commodore management, as always. There was some chance to keep it competitive if they went the right way :-(
Finally someone said it...
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AeroMan wrote:
persia wrote:
A more interesting question is would any of us actually be interested in a modern Amiga?
I do! As long as it is still an Amiga at it´s heart and not just another PC clone.
Elvis still rules! :-D
By the way... Back in 92 SVGA boards were quite slow... AGA was not that bad compared to them, but was showing (fast) it´s age. Commodore was aiming at RTG also at some point in future.
And Windows multitasking was crappy until Win98, many years ahead.
Back in '92, I never considered Windows/DOS a worthy competitor to the AmigaOS; it was OS/2 which had the best multitasking capabilities. Also, faster high performance SVGA cards did exist for the PC in '92, but the introduction of clock doubled processors (ie; the '486 DX2-66) more than made up for the relative slowness of the low-end SVGA cards.
EDIT: PC's got something else in '92; cheap and good 16 bit sound. Frustrating that Amigas still were stuck with 8 bit sound.
It was a sad time to be an Amiga loyalist (which I was), all thanks to the mismanagement of Commodore. For the record, my first new PC was a '486 DX2-66 with 8MB of RAM running OS/2 Warp 3. I always considered OS/2 Warp to be a natural progression for Amiga owners.
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Amiga One wasoutdated technology when it was announced and it had no modern OS. There's never been a vision driving the Amiga, a Steve Jobs who could drive Amiga forward. The Amiga was born an advanced performance machine and just sat there waiting for the rest of the world to catch up and waved as they went passed.
There hasn't been one single technological advance by a company bearing the Commodore or Amiga name in almost two decades.
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee98/Jani417/smilyconfused-1-1.gif)
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Back in '92, I never considered Windows/DOS a worthy competitor to the AmigaOS; it was OS/2 which had the best multitasking capabilities.
OS2 death was one of the sad things that happened to the PC world...
Also, faster high performance SVGA cards did exist for the PC in '92, but the introduction of clock doubled processors (ie; the '486 DX2-66) more than made up for the relative slowness of the low-end SVGA cards.
EDIT: PC's got something else in '92; cheap and good 16 bit sound. Frustrating that Amigas still were stuck with 8 bit sound.
Even with faster processors things were sluggish. I believe the turn point was the MMX chips. They had something else and x86 performance was throwing the 68k in the past.
16 bit sound was good, but there were no popular boards with more than 2 channels as far as I remember (I may be wrong). Amiga's 4 channels were more useful :-D
BTW, I was at Freescale's chip design facility at Campinas last Friday for a training course. They have a huge place with tons of Dilbert-style cubicles where they do the S08 core and peripherals for PowerQUICC and Coldfire. I was almost screaming "Could someone please do a fully 68k compatible Coldfire?!?!?" ...
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People forget that the real reasons for the platform failing wasn't just C=, but weakening consumer demand and greater competition from other platforms.
After the multi-platform confusion of the 80s many consumers and businesses wanted a platform they could be relatively confident would be a "safe-bet" for future upgrades and software.
The Amiga's complex closed architecture prevented it from being this product.
I doubt the Amiga platform would exist even if C= was still around. I suspect C= would be a PC brand like Dell or HP and the Amiga platform would be much the same as it is a present, minus the A1 and Amiga Inc.
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But that wasn't a problem for the Mac - and the Amiga only really started having problems after Commodore went bust.
Even if Commodore had switched to using modern PC components instead of the classic Amiga, they could still be using the Amiga brandname (as Apple have done with the Mac brandname).
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The way I remember it, (here in Aus).
C= released the A1200 to which the public responded with general apathy. PCs were already dominating the display area in major retail chains. In the one of the few stores that still stocked Amiga stuff, a single A1200 was shoved into a poorly lit corner while PCs of all flavours were displayed on island displays under lights in the main area. This was while C= were still around.
Later they released the CD32 which was largely ignored by retail, one chain stocked it for about 3 months then it mysteriously disappeared of shelves. This was about a year before C= folded.
I think the Amiga hardware platform was already on its knees long before C= died, here in Aus at least.
If C= had brought out a Amiga branded x86 PC back then all they wouldve done is alienate the Amiga crowd and been another expensive branded PC clone.
Despite Amiga hardware tech' being great in its day, it just couldnt keep up with PC technology once it had gained momentum.
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The more things change....
We went from cpu doing everything to Amiga coprocessing back to "soft" cpu control of everything and now we're back to...
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/08/31/analysis-generic-pc-audio-turns
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persia wrote:
A more interesting question is would any of us actually be interested in a modern Amiga? The Amiga is part of an Elvis Presley/Marilyn Monroe world. It died young and better than anything out there. Or Perhaps James Dean. At any rate, the Amiga we know and love is frozen in time, it's a solid '80s computer in what is almost the '10s..
Would any of us love an Amiga that ran on eight core Xeon chips, had a BSD base, required at least 2 GB of RAM and used 512 Meg NVidia GForce 9500 video cards? Isn't part of the charm of the Amiga that we use last century ideas like Megabytles of RAM, hard disks smaller than a DVD and floppy disks?
That's one of the best posts i have ever read on the subject, and exactly what i feel about the Amiga, too.
The way I remember it, (here in Aus).
C= released the A1200 to which the public responded with general apathy. PCs were already dominating the display area in major retail chains. In the one of the few stores that still stocked Amiga stuff, a single A1200 was shoved into a poorly lit corner while PCs of all flavours were displayed on island displays under lights in the main area. This was while C= were still around.
Later they released the CD32 which was largely ignored by retail, one chain stocked it for about 3 months then it mysteriously disappeared of shelves. This was about a year before C= folded.
I think the Amiga hardware platform was already on its knees long before C= died, here in Aus at least.
If C= had brought out a Amiga branded x86 PC back then all they wouldve done is alienate the Amiga crowd and been another expensive branded PC clone.
Despite Amiga hardware tech' being great in its day, it just couldnt keep up with PC technology once it had gained momentum.
Same here in Germany. It started with Wing Commander and Gunship 2000, and when a friend of mine and me were watching Wing Commander II on a 386 Machine, everything was clear.
The games for the x86 machines were definitely sexier at that time than the ones for the Amigas we owned, so we had to get PCs. I would say the prime reasons were 256 colours on screen (VGA), and harddrives, which the Amigas didn't have. That's all.
AGA and built in harddrives two years earlier, and the Amiga wouldn't have been toast that early..
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coldfish wrote:
People forget that the real reasons for the platform failing wasn't just C=, but weakening consumer demand and greater competition from other platforms.
After the multi-platform confusion of the 80s many consumers and businesses wanted a platform they could be relatively confident would be a "safe-bet" for future upgrades and software.
The Amiga's complex closed architecture prevented it from being this product.
I doubt the Amiga platform would exist even if C= was still around. I suspect C= would be a PC brand like Dell or HP and the Amiga platform would be much the same as it is a present, minus the A1 and Amiga Inc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hombre_chipset
PA-RISC 7150(includes SIMD multimedia instructions)+Hombre 3D chipset+Windows NT on a game console? CBM's XBOX 1994/1995... @PA-71x0 can decode and play MPEG video at a rate of ~30 frames/second without the need for a special DSP.
PA-RISC's successor is Intel Itanium...
Imagines CBM’s "XBOX" vs Sony’s PS1...
PA-RISC 7100 includes instruction fusion i.e. bundle related instruction together, thus increasing the number of instruction issue per cycle.
Later, AMD K7/K8 Athlon, AMD K10 Phenom, Intel Core 2, IBM PowerPC 970 includes instruction fusion/bundling..