Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: GadgetMaster on August 22, 2003, 02:35:21 AM
-
Firtsly I would like to point out that I do not wish to comment at all about recent events in this small community of ours.
The politics of both sides fail to interest me so please try to keep this thread free from rivalry.
I was just wondering in general how we can make this a nicer place to be on the web.
As well as the posting guidelines already published I suggest that a few neutral examples be given as to what type of comments could be cosiderd trolling or FUD and what would be an alternative less imlammatory way of expressing that same opinion.
This might make it easier for people to avoid starting flame wars.
Some people keep repeating things in nearly every thread they post in. Annoying yes but is it trolling?
Some people mention something off topic is THAT trolling ?
Can presenting unconfirmed rumours in a way that looks like genuine news be considered trolling ?
Does the innocent and genuine praise of a chosen solution constitute trolling?
Is an unconstructive comment trolling?
Am I being naive to think that flame wars can be reduced simply by setting rules or am I trolling :-? :-D
Seriously can anyone please clarify what is and is not "trolling" so that those who want to can avoid it.
BTW I am not asking for a dictionary definition just for some examples preferably neutral ones not related to anything Amiga.
-
I think many answers can be found in the Posting Guidelines.
Regardless, of all the Amiga sites I visit, Amiga.org seems best at keeping the peace. Rarely have I even seen a discussion get to a point that required intervention from the moderators.
-
I'm not even sure what trolling is - but i've heard its going on all the time. I take it with a grain of salt. You can't take to much of what you read here to personally.
It has bumps, but all in all A.org is a fun place. :-D
-
troll 1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a
posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or
flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for
newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of
fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a
bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies
and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already
do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is
in fact a deliberate troll.
Got that from here (http://dict.die.net/troll/).
-
I'll try to give some examples of what I think.
In response to
"McEwen now says problems are over!"
Wrong:
"His mum promised to help him with the t-shirts?"
Right:
"Based on previous statements I have no confidence in McEwen anymore."
In response to:
"BBRV says they are not interested in the Amiga trademarks."
Wrong:
"And yesterday they wanted a license? ******* liars."
Right:
"I find this inconsistent with their previous statements, could anyone
explain?"
In response to:
"Alan says the A1 has sold more than the Pegasos."
Wrong:
"Yeah, like he said there were no bugs in Articia.."
Right:
"Does he tell what number of Pegasos sales he's comparing to?"
In response to:
"BBRV says they don't consider Amiga to be a competitor."
Wrong:
"Uh-huh? Why then do they spend all their time spreading FUD against
Amiga?"
Right:
"From what they do, it seems to me like they are competing with
Amiga."
Avoid sarcasm if you know it's going to be controversial.
Don't respond to one question by bringing up another, old question.
If you can't defend a particular action/statement from "your side",
don't try to switch subject. Concede the point and remark that in
total, this does not change your position.
Don't treat your opinions and theories as facts, insert "in my
opinion", "it seems to me", etc, when you expect others to have
different impressions of reality.
-
@ Merko
ie try to sound like Data from ST? I'm sure a lot of Amigans wouldn't find that too hard :-P
-
Guidelines to avoid trolling ?
Do we need them?
-
Yes seriously, I'm sure we can joke about OTHER things, but if we're
going to get rid of the flamewars, I think we'll have to resort to
rather boring, matter-of-fact communication. I think it's obvious that
we don't have the same frames of reference regarding this subject, it
would be like a Klingon and a Romulan trying to joke about the
Khitomer massacre, if you get my point. :-)
-
Simple guideline to avoid trolling,
If you fall into one of the categories:
- Start to grin evilly as you type
- Mutter "Ill show him/her"
- Use silly little aliases for products ( e.g. DEad ) in your post
- Start to bring off topic stuff into a topic just to score points
You are in all probability about to troll.
-
Hmm, guidelines to avoid trolling, let's see...
The people you talk to on forums are people you don't know. You also don't know their age.
How would you talk face to face with people you don't know?
Do you swear in front of kids?
It's that simple.
(not directed at anyone in particular)
-
@Merko
[Edited to rephrase]
Because the politics do not interest me anymore I would have preferred non-specific examples but I get your drift.
It is about how you initially respond to news and such. The more you think and pause before posting the more sensible your post will be. Albeit, if everyone was too sensible it would get a bit surreal around here ;-)
@DaveP
You are probably right. :-D
-
@gadget
I think your trolling, thinking you can shut everyone up by posting off-topic on the front page like this :P
-
@BoringPerson
We shouldn't really.
-
meerschaum wrote:
@gadget
I think your trolling, thinking you can shut everyone up by posting off-topic on the front page like this :P
Interesting. So according to you, posting on the front page is trolling. Hmm I must make a mental note never to do that again ;-)
-
@GadgetMaster
Just end every comment with "Amiga.org rulez!!" and you will be just fine :roflmao:
-
redrumloa wrote:
@GadgetMaster
Just end every comment with "Amiga.org rulez!!" and you will be just fine :roflmao:
@Red
Yessir! Sir! :-P
Check out my new sig.
-
:lol:
-
GadgetMaster wrote:
@Red
Yessir! Sir! :-P
Check out my new sig.
Hey you are all-right in my book. You are now labeled a non-troll and may speak as you wish;-)
-
Is an unconstructive comment trolling.
Of course, it depends, but usually yes.
What it depends on is how you define unconstructive. Endless harping on about things I've heard gazillions of times before only serves to annoy me, hence I call it trolling.
Yes, I know some people think CAM is a scam because they haven't received their t-shirt/coupon. I see nothing wrong with having that opinion. But endlessly repeating it until it drowns out all constructive debate about how we as a community should move forwards doesn't really help the case, does it now? Of course, I personally don't believe much in the concept of revenge.
Other points:
Does the innocent and genuine praise of a chosen solution constitute trolling?
Well, if you ask like this, no. But there's a fine line between irony, sarcasm, fundamentalism and a few other things when you don't have anything except smileys (or lack thereof) to judge the poster by. For instance, I think very few posts appraising AmigaOS and claiming that Bill Buck is the devil (and using very BAD english as well) here and on ANN over the last few months can really be called innocent.
However, if I say that I have NO real interest in MorphOS but a lot of interest in OS4, from my personal (emotional and technical) point of view, then I fail to see how this can be considered trolling. Unless I would harp on endlessly about it when it is not contributing to the discussion, see the point above.
Presenting rumours like news? I consider that one of the worst kinds of trolling.
Mentioning something off topic isn't trolling as long as it is marked as such and further discussion is taken to a new thread. I know I could be better at this myself, so not complaining too much. But misters (in alphabetical order, mind you. I'm not saying either one is better than the other. They are both VERY VERY BAD) Alkis and Samface _certain_ should try to learn from past mistakes some day soon.
I think it's all a question of respect. I have a particularly bad feeling about moderators who take cheap shots at non-moderators in public, even when there is good reason for it. Some days it's necessary being a bastard, but you don't necessarily do it in front of everyone else (at least at my workplace my boss doesn't suddenly tell me I'm an idiot in front of everyone while we're having lunch. It also means I don't give him much of a reason to ;-) ).
-
redrumloa wrote:
Hey you are all-right in my book. You are now labeled a non-troll and may speak as you wish;-)
Damn, and I'm on a continous "being ignored even when I'm dead right" streak here. Argh :-)
-
@olegil
You are not being ignored, I'm just trying to add a little humor.
have a particularly bad feeling about moderators who take cheap shots at non-moderators in public, even when there is good reason for it.
Depends what you mean by cheap shots. Also keep n mind how much abuse certain moderators put up with themselves before they make a comment. Ideally things should be discussed in private, but that is not always possible when the other party has a habit of attacking in public. But I do agree it should be discussed in private when possible.
Some days it's necessary being a bastard, but you don't necessarily do it in front of everyone else (at least at my workplace my boss doesn't suddenly tell me I'm an idiot in front of everyone while we're having lunch. It also means I don't give him much of a reason to ).
Well what if YOU called your boss an idiot in public in front of everyone? He would either lash out at you or simply fire you now wouldn't he?
-
No. He would take me aside and tell me I was being a prick and expect me to retract my statement publically and thereby come off the better man.
-
@DaveP
Only in union or GOV jobs. Anywhere else you'd be walking. But i get your point.
-
quote]
redrumloa wrote:
Hey you are all-right in my book. You are now labeled a non-troll and may speak as you wish ;-)
Thanks, I shall try to use these newly given powers wisely. :lol:
-
@DaveP:
So would mine.
-
@red:
Yes, well. How come it's so popular to behave that way on online forums, then? I agree that you're putting up with a lot of trolling, but that really isn't an excuse to do it yourself.
Now, how about those other points in my comment, agree or not? (it seems moderators get _extremely_ jumpy when someone questions their behaviour, but I feel that if you can't question something, it's bound to only become worse. One of the most important points of not being a totalitarian system, that...)
-
GadgetMaster wrote:
@BoringPerson
We shouldn't really.
Well, all I'm thinking, is that those who don't already troll, will follow the rules, and ofcourse those who do want to troll, erm..., wont follow the rules ;-)
Do you get what I am saying? :-)
-
iamaboringperson wrote:
GadgetMaster wrote:
@BoringPerson
We shouldn't really.
Well, all I'm thinking, is that those who don't already troll, will follow the rules, and ofcourse those who do want to troll, erm..., wont follow the rules ;-)
Do you get what I am saying? :-)
I hear ya,
Its just that some people might prefer to steer clear of things that others consider trolling but they themselves thought were perfectly innocent .
Mileage varies, different people have different tolerance levels. It is good to have different opinions about what actions can make forums tedious.
-
I think the worst trolls are very much aware of the fact that they are trolling, but I think this thread is a good idea still.
As with everything (as I think someone pointed out) it is the few that gives the mass a bad name.
I think most of you people are great, and I think the staff is doing an outstanding job whether I agree with their beliefs or not.
The great thing about this site - and the problem - is (imo, of course) that it is a site about the amiga and amiga related products of all kinds. That makes it a good, general site for everyone, but it also makes it a lot more...useful?...to push your agenda; for instance, you are not going to get a lot of people from amigaworld.net to agree with you when you state your pro-morphos agendas there. (just used as an example)
Personally I would like to see the moderators be a LOT stricter than they currently are, moderating far more as, imo, trolls are ruining a LOT of good threads lately, but I suppose that would put a tremendous amount of stress on the moderators, as they would probably get a bazillion more complaints than now. I am amazed to see people complain about the moderation as it is now. I think next to nothing gets moderated.
Keep up the good work, staff.
Sincerely,
-Kenneth Straarup, on his staff-happy mission.
-
Guidelines to avoid trolling ?
Well, it seems to me the only way to avoid trolling is to talk about something totally unrelated to Amiga / Pegasos. Say, did I mention my ZXSpectrum?
Seriously, I dunno about everybody else, but I for one am bored to tears whenever either side kicks off. Its' done to death.
Someone asks a question about either platform. Usually within 10 posts it's degenerated into a troll fest.
Alternatively, someone just has to bring up a thread detailing system A's advantage to system B, or worse yet, bring it up in an existing thead purely to ruin it.
-
Alternatively, someone just has to bring up a thread detailing system A's advantage to system B, or worse yet, bring it up in an existing thead purely to ruin it.
I hope that wasn't a suggestion! ;-)
-
Guidlines?
All people need to remember is:
If they dont like flame wars, dont start them and dont participate with them.
If you have a beef with a user, PM him, dont argue a point or put your point accross and use offensive language in the forum. Send a person a PM instead. Aruge there.
Moderators: if you notice a potential flamewar, delete comments, or if its too late, freeze the threed.
Generaly, if i see someone being a dickhead during the conversationg and i feel the need to say something, i'll PM him so i dont get the rest of the thread involved. But even more generaly, i'll just try to forget it and think, its just a stupid forum. Get over it!
I dont know Guidelines are needed, just some simple common sence and for one to think about their actions and what those actions could bring about!!!
-
The thing is that a "troll" (in the sense
"controversial") post quickly get replied to,
and even if the original post is moderated away
these replies might themselves be heated an
generate agressive respones.
An idea would be for the moderators to be able to
lift out all replies (not the controversial post itself)
to a certain post and place them in a "Flame-fest"
forum. Everyone replying to the deemed troll-post
will have the replies posted in that forum and will
have to go there to follow the discussion. The
original, controversial post will not have been
modded away (causing dispute on bias etc), but
will be marked with a red text "Controversial post -
replies are moved to Flame Area" or somesuch. An
alternative (perhaps easier to implement) is to have,
instead of moving them, the replies to such a post
only appear if you have that option selected in your
prefs.
Would incur some big changes in the forum code I
suppose though...
.
SlimJim
-
Pherhaps using your brain is the best advice here.
I mean, does there HAVE to be a "Posting on Amiga.org for dummies", really ?
Should posters look threw a sheet for allowed phrases to use when adding comments ?
-
In todays world government councils need to put up signs on cliffs saying "dont jump off, it will hurt".
The tendancy is to troll then claim you didn't know the rules. The rules being accessible and unverisally understood means that if you pariticpate on the forum you accept the rules.
Weasel clause no longer applies then.
-
by mikeymike on 2003/8/22 14:03:42
Hmm, guidelines to avoid trolling, let's see...
The people you talk to on forums are people you don't know. You also don't know their age.
How would you talk face to face with people you don't know?
Do you swear in front of kids?
It's that simple.
(not directed at anyone in particular)
I agree 100% with you.
Often (not only here) people abuse of the term "troll" only because he isn't be able to answer to a question.
IMHO hypocrisy is the real problem on the net and not a so called innocuous "troll".
Ciao
-
1. Treat others as you want to be treated.
2. Do your best ( Be all you can be! :-D ).
3. Do the right thing.
addendum: As long as there are bad people that do bad things there have to be good guys that do bad things better...;-)
Guess who?!
-
SlimJim wrote:
The thing is that a "troll" (in the sense
"controversial") post quickly get replied to,
and even if the original post is moderated away
these replies might themselves be heated an
generate agressive respones.
An idea would be for the moderators to be able to
lift out all replies (not the controversial post itself)
to a certain post and place them in a "Flame-fest"
forum. Everyone replying to the deemed troll-post
will have the replies posted in that forum and will
have to go there to follow the discussion. The
original, controversial post will not have been
modded away (causing dispute on bias etc), but
will be marked with a red text "Controversial post -
replies are moved to Flame Area" or somesuch. An
alternative (perhaps easier to implement) is to have,
instead of moving them, the replies to such a post
only appear if you have that option selected in your
prefs.
Would incur some big changes in the forum code I
suppose though...
.
SlimJim
I think a flame-fest forum would only encourage flamers and trolls. OS News has a little section where they keep "modded-down" posts on display. It would be okay if it wasn't possible to reply to them directly, but I don't know why Amiga.org would want to waste time and bandwidth giving trolls a place to flame away.
-
However . . i personally, am not agree of wichever sort of censorship by the moderator (exept for personal insult, ofenses or so).
A so called trolling poster, could be "troll" for you but even useful for other.
Who decide "what is right and what is wrong"?
I think that could be the user that decide and not any sort of "Grande Fratello".
Coccini Franco (age 46)
Ciao
-
bbrv wrote:
1. Treat others as you want to be treated.
2. Do your best ( Be all you can be! :-D ).
3. Do the right thing.
addendum: As long as there are bad people that do bad things there have to be good guys that do bad things better...;-)
Guess who?!
That's all fair and good offline, especially in light of current world events, but I'd be hard-pressed to find "good guys" and "bad people" in amiga.org. There are some that should probably take a walk around the block before they post, but calling them "bad people" is pushing it (OK, maybe "jerks" ;-))
-
bbrv wrote:
1. Treat others as you want to be treated.
2. Do your best ( Be all you can be! ).
3. Do the right thing.
addendum: As long as there are bad people that do bad things there have to be good guys that do bad things better...
Guess who?!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all fair and good offline, especially in light of current world events, but I'd be hard-pressed to find "good guys" and "bad people" in amiga.org. There are some that should probably take a walk around the block before they post, but calling them "bad people" is pushing it (OK, maybe "jerks" )
Somehow, Im reading something completely different into those lines 8-)
-
Well, if he's suggesting that the blue camp is somehow "good" and the red camp is somehow "evil", then he needs to go on a nice long holiday (I'd suggest a nice 3-4 week cruise somewhere exotic) - I'd say work is getting to him.
-
bbrv
3. Do the right thing.
I have a problem with people who say that, since not all are in agreeance with what 'the right thing' is. IMO there are only so few values that are common among all(or most) of us.
:-)
-
CodeSmith wrote:
Well, if he's suggesting that the blue camp is somehow "good" and the red camp is somehow "evil", then he needs to go on a nice long holiday (I'd suggest a nice 3-4 week cruise somewhere exotic) - I'd say work is getting to him.
CodeSmith I don't think he was suggesting that, at all.
-
Right, no-one who's gotten as far in life as he has could have such a naive outlook. That's why I initially assumed he was talking about the world in general.
-
In my opinion trolling is very rare on Amiga.org compared to the other boards I use. But any troll is a troll too much, I think.
On my forum I have a kind of auto-moderation(?) that cancels posts that contain certain words in certain contexts. It has been very effective in testing, but if it is good enough for real world use remains to be seen. It's REBOL based, in part.
I figure you could do the same on A.org, just stop posts containing the words "Amiga" and "Pegasos" and you're laughing! :-D
-
More people are trolling than are generally credited - it's just that these trolls are more subtle than some of the blatant or clumsy ones. But count the posts of these craftier, less obvious people - they put out a lot of spin.
Instead of anti-troll guidelines maybe we need anti-littering laws ; }
-
One sure fire way to avoid trolling is to stay off A.Org. :-?
But, since that is impossible ! :-) Wear platform shoes to keep above the "Troll Dung"! :crazy:
-
TEST to increase Post # by ONE.
:-)
Did not like the number!
R&B
-
Try to avoid needless use of the words 'professional', 'toy', 'junk', 'military...
Hang on a moment, now I'm trolling! D'Oh! :lol:
-
Don't tell people that the like to ban everyone left right and centre!
@Karlos
:lol:
-
I do fall into the OFF-TOPIC poster from time to time, I also have recently been a strong contributor to starting a flame war (not really intentionally, I was swept up in the heat of the moment over some things)
So, from my perspective here's what I think...
People need to accentuate the fact that they are joking a little more often on here.
I've seen several circumstances where someone was intending to playfully poke fun at something and someone else responded vehemently due to their not understanding the intended statement wasn't serious.
I don't think there is a problem with an off-topic post here and there especially when it's a fairly playful jibe, and the person does their best to make sure everyone is aware that they are not serious and not trying to drastically divert the conversation.
Don't forget that what is written in text does not necessarily communicate the tone of your voice as if you had said it in person. Also, because I am fond of poking fun with some OFF-TOPIC posting, I try to make sure that the thread has continued for awhile and the majority of opinion available has already been expressed (ie the thread is dying down) before going to something like that.
Although I have on occasion faltered here, I do try.
I do have a problem with people giving out particularly bad and sometimes dangerous advice as though they are the end-all and be-all creators of everything amiga, and it is at this point where I usually get more vocal.
I do realize that much of what is a good idea or bad idea is opinion, but when you start suggesting to people that they do things like stick screwdrivers into the 'suction-cup looking thingy on the CRT tube,' I think there should be some serious moderation going on. Don't forget that the majority of Amigans are not electrical engineers.
There should be some work done for posts that could potentially cause people to receive electrical shocks in addition to utterly destroying their machines without even giving some kind of warning that this could be fairly hazardous.
I would also suggest that you don't refer to other people's hardware as crap or some other negative designator simply because you don't care for it. There are very good reasons for owning ANY kind of computer, and you should instead be willing to ask someone why they chose their particular machine instead of insulting them for it.
I mean after all, it's pretty easy to insult the choice of anybody who'd choose an Amiga nowadays, especially if you don't even bother to ask them why.
BTW, I am actually very impressed with the moderators on here, they're not overly obsessed with the rules to the point where someone can't even make a simple joke, but they still take their jobs seriously. On top of that, you guys are full of good information (along with the majority of people here)
Amiga.org isn't all that bad, take a look at www.kuro5hin.org sometime.