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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Illuwatar on August 09, 2008, 08:57:33 PM
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The MiniITX-MiniMig project did generate some cashback for me as I was able to sell off two of the prototypes. I also got requests to make more of them. But as the the prototypes does contain some errors I have started to correct these and do some major changes at the same point, making a version 2 of the board, suitable for production. For the original design, please have a look at my web page (www.illuwatar.se).
This thread is about asking for interest to make a larger run of boards. To create an order, at least 10 boards must be ordered to keep the price at a decent level. A initial run of 10 boards will cost at least €250, going for 25 boards will be €345.
Above corrections, following things will be modified or changed:
* The PIC18LF452 will be changed to a DIP-version, making it easier to reprogram in case of failed bootloader (or own development). The ISP-connector will be removed as it is useless when the PIC runs at 3.3V (it can't be erased and reprogrammed). The PIC18LF452 is a larger but 100% compatible version of the 18LF252 used in Dennis design, adding more I/O-pins for future enhancement.
Maybe even change to a PIC18LF4520 as the 452 is marked as "Mature Product" by Microchip.
* All connectors will be moved to the rear of the PCB as it should on a MiniITX. I managed to source what I need to pull this off at DigiKey.
* The LCD-connector will be removed - it was just that stupid idea I got sometimes. A generic header will be available for access to the added ports from the larger PIC. They are free for whatever fun You can think of.
* SD-slot moved to the board front. For off-board connection of a SD-holder, a pin-header will be available to connect to a break-out board with a SD-holder. Nothing should be at the board sides that needs external access.
* Changed several 1206 to 0805 - they aren't much harder to solder but it is easier to optimize the design with smaller parts.
* Improved ESD-protection at joysticks and PS/2-connectors.
What will NOT be changed:
* The form factor - it is still MiniITX.
* The color (of course it will be flat black).
* The core functions - it will still be 100% compatible with the Original MiniMig and it uses the same core parts (memories, FPGA, CPU & clock generator).
* 2-layer board, basically if you are skilled and have the tools, you can make one yourself.
* Integrated regulators - no need for a hard-to-find 5V PSU. Take whatever you have that gives out 9 - 15V DC.
* The S-Video/C-Video outputs and the buffered line-out audio. The buffered VGA contains a flaw in the current design that will be corrected. When done, three video outputs are available in the 15kHz mode (in VGA-mode/31kHz, the converter does not work - it is a limit in the AD724), showing the same picture simultaneous (good for demos at gathering).
Please note that this is not a build for a future MiniMig (there are others doing that) so I will not implement features like USB or larger FPGA. I will just take the nice design made by Dennis and move it into the easy accessible world of PC by using the MiniITX form factor.
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This sounds great.
1. Did you make a pico version some time ago?
2.Could a LCD version be made for a Mini-Mig PDA? (Removing the 12 bit D/A conversion)
3. I am interested in buying a board this fall.
4. Keep up the good work.
Have a great weekend.
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Have a look at the hardware flaws I found:
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Board_v1.0_issues
Esp, the SD/MMC "or"-gate.
@trekiej: It seems the ASus Eee PC 7" TFT screen can be had for 84 EUR (including VAT) and it works with a digital parallell RGB interface. So it would fit directly on the Minimig video output. Provided sync rates are taken into account. So if the resistor D/A colour and sync signals get some solder pads it's easy to attach the 7" flat display. The 9" seems work in the same way.
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Thank you for that link - I will look through that one.
Regarding the LCD-interface - are You meaning that you will have direct access to the FPGA pins used for the video DAC? It could be done by placing a pin header just in front of the resistors. Just skip the resistors at the board and you will have an additional 14 FPGA I/O for your own joy.
Edit: do you have a link to where to buy these screens? It could solve the issue making that portable MiniMig I'm thinking of.
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I think I have to make a distinction. Usually "LCD" means black/grey screns like the ones on wristwatches. TFT are the popular colour ones used today.
A pin header might be good. Just make sure it's possible to easily desolder the pin header. Because it might cause EMI. Esp if there's any stubs, ie the resistor D/A versus pin header. Electronics is tricky ;)
Asus Eee TFT screen link:
http://www.asusparts.eu/index.php?cPath=1880_1886_1892_2370
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Interesting stuff. Shame it is not possible to add larger SRAM.
As for LCD panel, the Spartan III has LVDS I/O so it should be possible to create HDL to drive any old laptop LCD panel directly...
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@illuwatar
I take it you are sampling interest for an unpopulated board?
Since the price you are quoting goes up with more boards(if it was a per board price it would go down with more boards)
:)
My soldering skills are found wanting...
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The price examples are totals - for a board price, divide it with the board number. More boards are of course cheaper per unit.
My idea is to primary sell bare PCB as these are rather tedious to hand-build. These two I sold (complete, tested boards) went for €300 each.
A TFT is basically a LCD too, just a different way to control the pixels...
The header does not have to be a 2.54 mm spacing, hole mount part. I could use a SMD connector with tighter spacing if it would improve the EMI-part. Or just a line of pads with 1.27 mm spacing...
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@ illuwatar:
If you go to www.parallax.com they have the yOLED display.
These are about 2.5 inch diagonal and have only 5 wires.
They also have 64k color and a SD card slot.
http://www.parallax.com/Store/Accessories/Displays/tabid/159/CategoryID/34/List/0/Level/a/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName
I would like to have a 68K PDA or pocket Amiga. PAM :) SD card is fine for a PDA.
As for Mini-Itx it is an okay form factor to me. I wish it had an IDE slot for HD or Compact Flash. It could be a wonderful Media Device, just do not call it Medi. :)
I am very needy :)
I have been using Blender for a short while and will draw a faux Amiga. Fawn :)
Good day.
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@ freqmax :
Thanks for the link. It would make for a cool Amiga.
I hope that I did not go to far out in the previous reply.
Sorry. :(
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A socket for the CPU could mean upgrades.
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Socket = EMI issues. Better to have an FPGA with more logics. Which makes it possible with softcore 68020+AGA etc..
I think however this is just a bugfix version. Rather than the next step.
And larger FPGA means BGA at this point (except for XC3S500E).
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freqmax wrote:
Usually "LCD" means black/grey screns like the ones on wristwatches. TFT are the popular colour ones used today.
TFT is a type of LCD.
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It is a good start for improvement of the minimig. However I would only be interested when write support is added to the code along with other improvements already suggested numerous times by other people.
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tonyyeb wrote:
It is a good start for improvement of the minimig. However I would only be interested when write support is added to the code along with other improvements already suggested numerous times by other people.
Has anyone heard or read about write support working yet?
I thought the same coder who was working on full ECS support and had completed some kind of NTSC 60Hz display work-around had implemented the write support, but then I have not heard or seen anything about it since.
Was it Yaqube, or something like that?
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Yes, I have completed write support and it seems to work pretty well (it's not perfect since standard ADF's are decoded MFM sector data, so only write to standard tracks is possible).
The ECS support is only partial. Only ECS blitter and PAL/NTSC switching is implemented. I had to remove programmable beam counters due to limited FPGA resources. They were consumed during improving compatibility. Maybe further code optimization would free some but at that time I was focused on getting more games to work.
Current implementation is not perfect and there are still things to fix. It will be done when I have more time.
All the project files have been sent to Dennis and he promissed to put it on his site after reviewing them. It was my agreement with him. I haven't heard any news from him for a few days and I guess he must be on his holidays. We must be patient.
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Patience is the key. At least some people are working on keeping the Amiga going.
Any news on hardfile support?
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I'm defenitely interested ! At a good price :)
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The hardfile support is next on my list.
But due to limited PIC resources (mainly RAM) expected transfer speed isn't high. Traversing through FAT on a disk seems to be a nightmare. That's why I've decided to switch to ARM microcontroller. Then it would be possible to add LFN and subfolder support (the FAT16 root directory is limited to 512 entries and you can have as many files there as long as all of them use 8.3 names - mixing lower and upper case letters or using some characters takes one LFN entry more). Also alphabetical sorting of files would be possible, currently they are displayed as their entries were created within root directory.
I have written small program (Windows) to sort alphabetically root directory entries on flash card and remove LFN's to make room for more files. Currently there is no point in using cards bigger then 512MB since you may have max 512 files (actually volume name takes one root entry so if you name your card you can have max 511 files) of 880KB each. It's good to format your card with maximum allowed cluster size of 32KB, access to files can be slightly faster. This program will be available soon after I do more tests.
I have designed an adapter board with ARM micro which can be plugged instead of existing PIC micro. The PCB is about to be manufactured. I consider it as the next step of Minimig evolution (all together with switching from SRAM to SDRAM, 16MB of SDRAM are cheaper and faster then 2MB of SRAM).
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Interesting stuff yaqube.
With these improvements you are making the Minimig more and more appealing. I hope they don't drive the cost up too much (for an already relatively expensive product).
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Certainly, yaqube's improvements are making the MiniMig a far more attractive proposition!!!
I look forward to these!
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yaqube wrote:
I consider it as the next step of Minimig evolution (all together with switching from SRAM to SDRAM, 16MB of SDRAM are cheaper and faster then 2MB of SRAM).
But are there enough I/O on the FPGA to support SDRAM? Can you get them the same form factor as the SRAM? Or are we talking a new PCB?
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alexh wrote:
yaqube wrote:
I consider it as the next step of Minimig evolution (all together with switching from SRAM to SDRAM, 16MB of SDRAM are cheaper and faster then 2MB of SRAM).
But are there enough I/O on the FPGA to support SDRAM? Or are we talking a new PCB?
Sounds like a new PCB to me... we are losing PIC for an ARM etc...
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alexh wrote:
Or are we talking a new PCB?
bloodline wrote:
Sounds like a new PCB to me... we are losing PIC for an ARM etc...
yaqube wrote:
I have designed an adapter board with ARM micro which can be plugged instead of existing PIC micro.
Not sure what to conclude :-?
An adapter board maybe would mean existing Minimigs can use the updates?
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Bloodline never reads posts properly, get used to it ;-)
ARM Micro seems overkill, especially if it needs own RAM and program Flash on the plugin board, I guess it is what you had to hand, which model is it?
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alexh wrote:
Bloodline never reads posts properly, get used to it ;-)
Oi! I resent that! :-P
ARM Micro seems overkill, especially if it needs own RAM and program Flash on the plugin board, I guess it is what you had to hand, which model is it?
I would assume the ARM board would be for development, and Retro upgrades... but if he wants to swap out the SRAM, then the existing board simply can't work?!? SRAM and SDRAM are electrically totally different :-)
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It would be possible to plug a PCB with ARM into the PIC socket on all existing Minimigs.
The SDRAM will require PCB change so it would be limited to new PCB designs like Illuwatar's one. Although I will try to implement it on my Minimig using wires first. But this solution isn't feasible for others.
@alexh
The SDRAM pinout is different from current SRAM's so no drop-in replacement. The SDRAM's address bus is multiplexed so current number of memory IO pins should be ample.
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@alexh
It's an ATMEL AT91SAM7S256. http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/Product_card.asp?part_id=3524
It has 256KB Flash ROM and 64KB RAM on chip. It's not an overkill, it's a simple and small MCU with ARM7TDMI core. No external parts exept a crystal and some passive elements. It has built-in USB device port and factory programmed boot loader so firmware upgrades are possiible through USB connection.
More over it's possible to create USB mass storage class support (or adapt existing one) for Minimig's SD-Card so you could write to it through USB (solution similar to the PSP). But this is the future.
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@alexh
:-P :lol:
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yaqube wrote:
@alexh
It has 256KB Flash ROM and 64KB RAM on chip. It's not an overkill, it's a simple and small MCU with ARM7TDMI core.
Which is almost 3x the price of the device it is replacing. I wonder what that does to the overall retail price of MiniMig? (Which was already very high).
How much does it cost? [Edit: ~$11]
How much was the PIC? [Edit: ~$4]
But if you could reduce the cost equally by switching to SDRAM you might be able to bring it back in line.
@55MHz it would have considerably more power than MiniMig :-)
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I would like to see MITX-MM have more than the original Mini-Mig. What do you think would make it more mature?
Making it fit into an ATX media case sounds good to me.
Could connecting it to a Beagle board be good?
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Great board improvement ideas! Count me in, I'm interested :-)
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@yaqube:
Less complex components, less cost, less soldering mayham. So if the present MCU (PIC) can't handle FAT16 then we might create a small MCU with large memory inside the FPGA that does handle the non-boot stuff.
Btw, I definitly like your switch to DRAM, hopefully it's bugfree too ;)
(DRAM is tricky)
The SDRAM pinout might differ. But then you can also totally reconfigure the i/o pins to accomplish the new task. And thus wire the SDRAM to the pcb pads for the SRAM.
@Illuwatar:
Do you think it's possible to shrink the actually used area on the pcb such that any would-be-laptop-hackers can cut the board into a smaller form factor to fit a mini laptop. While still keeping the Mini-ITX formfactor.
Using same pcb for both users = less costs.
But I guess the board is as compact as it's possible to make it.
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Lot of good ideas, but many of them breaks the compatibility with the original design. And there is already an other designer working with a "Super MiniMig", doing a lot of the things you want:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35270 (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35270)
My idea is more to make a solution that takes Dennis original design and make it more user friendly by changing physical aspects of the PCB and adding a few features.
That ARM-plugin board sounds interesting. I maybe should change back to the PIC18LF252 to make my board compatible with that extension.
Going smaller is possible - look at the on-going project Mini-MiniMig at my homepage. But to do that, a 4-layer design was required. The MiniITX is 2-layer, making it harder to shrink it to a decent size. Also, going smaller means getting rid of the connectors and replace them with pin headers. The MiniITX will fit fine in a standard PC-case - that's the whole idea of this project.
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In that case just do the hardware bugs errata. But I think the ARM CPU will just increase the cost in the end. FAT16 handling can be done with an FPGA softcore MCU.
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All buggfixes are now implemented in the schematics. Still some connector issues to solve to be able to put all connectors at the rear. This correction release will spawn an entirely new PCB layout. By moving all the connectors, I have to basically re-route the entire board. That is actually good as I can optimize the design even more, specially the power supply will go through a rather serious change. I will also add this header/connector that allows access to the RGB-ports at the FPGA (for direct LCD/TFT connection).
For the PIC, I will make it possible to use both the 252 and the 452 (not at the same time of course). This will make the board really 100% Dennis-compatible (with the 252) or you can go for the larger PIC and have a few more port for fun. With this solution, this ARM-expansion will fit my board too (not just the Dennis original one).
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@Illuwatar
I can provide you with the outline of my adapter board and its component locations so you will be able to optimize component placement of your board (mechanical constraints).
What file format is suitable for you: Gerber, DWG, DXF?
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I would bet on Gerber ;)
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yaqube - that would be nice. You could send both file formats, but the AutoCAD version would be preferred in case you have to select.
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Update:
Got the drawing of the ARM-board from yaqube - many thanks!
The PCB-design have been started, currently laying out the parts in a more optimized way than before. It will be an entirely new board as none of the old layout will be re-used. And I managed to put all connectors where they belong: at the rear face of the PCB.
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How long do you think it will take to redesign the board?
Thanks again.
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(Bump)
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The project is ongoing, it just takes some time as I have to split the time with other things. The board is routed to about 90% (I do it entirely by hand).
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One piece of software that I have seen is FreePCB.
The author made his own net lists by hand. He used two high lighters and got good results.
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Board is 100% routed and it passes the DRC-testing... :-D
What left to do are some minor tweaking of the ground planes, then they are done for manufacturing.
Before actually making any boards, I need to get some sense of interest. A few have indicated that they will buy boards, but should I make 10, 25 or maybe more? Total cost will of course increase for each board added but the price per unit will decrease. Before shelling out for a 25-board run, I must be sure to sell them all (except for a few I keep for my own joy). Calculated prices based on board size and manufacturing parameters are: €25/each @ 10 boards, €14/each @ 25 boards. This price includes shipping from China to me but not from me to You. Also, there are zero-profit prices - the job is done for free if I sell for these prices. I'm unsure what is fair to take as a "reward" for the work making these boards - the Amiga-scene is little bit like a family...
Maybe the first run should be like five boards or so to prevent a large economical damage in case of board errors found during testing. If the board runs fine, I can do a second order. One thing i sure - I'm not going to sell any untested designs.
Edit: What color should i choose? Keep the flat black or select something else... :-D
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The GBA1000 is blue and it looks good.
It there a scheme that would make it stand out in a photo?
It could differentiate it against others.
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Hello,
sorry for this late remark/request but, I am finishing the adaptation on FPGA of the Capcom game "1943 : The battle of midway".
The issue is that it cannot run on the current Minimig because of the slow SRAM (55ns).
The FPGA game runs with a bus clock at 24MHz (40ns cycle).
I know there are some 512x16 TSOPII-44 SRAM @ 10ns from Cypress/ISSI but they are expensive and difficult to find.
The best deal is to put four 512x8 SRAM chip ($3.84 each at Future Electronics)
Regards,
Frederic
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I don't think I will delay the board even more by re-designing the memory section. Swapping the existing SRAM's to faster ones with the same pin layout is fine, but not re-designing the board. My other board (the Mini MiniMig) will be using 10 ns SRAM (1M x 16), but that project is currently on-hold until some other projects are done (that includes this Mini-ITX board).
Regarding the colors, I can choose from: standard PCB green (flat or shiny), black (flat och shiny), blue, red, white or yellow. The text could be white, yellow, black or red. My personal choices are black (flat), blue or red (in that order). The colors aren't changing the price of the boards (green may be a little bit cheaper).
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To paraphrase, Henry Ford said you can have any color you want only if it is black.
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It seems like the first initial board run can be sold without problems (judging from the PM's I have received). I will do a "debug-run" of five boards first. And I will do them flat black as I did with the previous version (the blue PCB should stay as a trade mark for the GBA1000 project). I will put a note in this thread when the order is done (it will take about two weeks form order to boards in my hand).
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Nice going Illuwatar :-)
What is the final specs?
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The first run of five boards are ordered now. In about two weeks I will know if this is a successful project...
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The first set of five boards has arrived. So, now I will start the hard work of assembling and testing. And I have already found a fault in the design - a mechanical one that I could bypass with some brute force... :madashell:
So, if these boards are working fine, I will assemble all five and sell them as complete units as these boards are not suitable for public release. A second run will be done with all corrections included and that one will be (hopefully) sellable.
A part order have been done too - to three different places to get all parts needed for a complete board. If it works fine, I will order parts for the remaining four boards.
Pictures will come, both here and at my homepage...
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Excellent.
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The pictures:
(http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/minimig2/images/minimig2-01.jpg)
(http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/minimig2/images/minimig2-02.jpg)
The currently known problem is related to the VGA/PS2-combo connector. The holes aren't properly aligned with the connector so I have to change the footprint a little. With some cutting, bending and forcing, I was able to mount it anyway so this board batch could be used for further testing.
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@Illuwatar
For the final rev would you \ could you include a mini-itx case backplane plate cutout for the connectors with the boards? That would be awesome...
Also, what is the cost of a fully assembled\populated board?
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The problem with the back cover plate is manufacturing - everything I do that you see here is made in a home environment with tools you could find in the nearby hardware store (except for the PCB manufacturing that is done by www.pcbcart.com). Mass producing sheet metal parts like these plates are out of my workshop's capabilities.
Fully populated boards are currently build by hand, so it is impossible for me to compete with companies like ACube in both production speed and cost. The first five boards will be built and tested (if I don't find more problems that affects the functionality), then I may put them out as auctions to see what people may pay. The corrected version will be available as bare PCB's for those who like to put it together by themselves.
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Maybe you could utilise already used backplates on existing PCs ..?
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freqmax wrote:
Maybe you could utilise already used backplates on existing PCs ..?
Agreed. I thought that was part of the point with the ITX Minimig.
If the ITX Minimig featured an IDE controller (which is plausible, on-board IDE68K (http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/ide68k.html) for instance), then we might have something really useable. I'll have one!
(Edit: 666th post! (http://www.sv-portal.com/forums/images/smilies/headbang.gif))
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To paraphrase, Henry Ford said you can have any color you want only if it is black.
OMG, I cant believe people actually still think he said this. He never did say it. There is no evidence to support he did and in fact you couldnt even get the model T in black for quite a few years into production.
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@Illuwatar
Hi,
Email me, I think I can help. I have also got a case nearly ready for your board.
Thank you.:-)
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skurk wrote:
freqmax wrote:
Maybe you could utilise already used backplates on existing PCs ..?
Agreed. I thought that was part of the point with the ITX Minimig.
That was a long time ago this was possible. Every PC motherboard manufacturer do their own back panel layout today. Even swapping between different models of VIA Mini-ITX boards requires black plate change. So, making my own connector layout does not break any rules (if the Big Ones can do it, so can I).
TheDaddy - Thank You for the offer. I will keep it in my mind. But first, I must see if this board works...
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I would not mind getting together with others and sending some money to Illuwatar to add a 86 pin connector.
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I assume You would like that connector to bring out more FPGA pins? I had actually an idea to add this, but I'm unsure how it could affect the performance of the board. Currently, I'm using a rather tight routing to keep the track length to a minimum between CPU, FPGA and memory. Going through a set of headers will make the traces longer and add pads to them. I left that out to be on the safe side.
But a small part of that has actually been added - all pins used for the VGA generation and the four spares are available at a 40-pin header (half of the pins are GND and a few carries power).
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That is a good idea. Sorry, I meant so that an A500 memory board could be added.
To make a dream come true, it would be nice if Mini-Mig had an 86 pin cpu slot and a video slot for a Toaster Board.
I guess this is good for retro only.
:-)
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Now I got what you was looking for. I don't think that is so simple by just bringing out more pins from the FPGA. It will require additional electronics to make it compatible (the MiniMig runs at 3.3 V internally for example) and to make it robust (you don't want to blow the FPGA by bad hardware or stupid usage). Also, it will not make the MiniMig mini anymore, taking away the original intention of the design.
My idea with pin headers was more to make it possible to create add-on modules for custom applications, not only for Amiga usage. But, as I said before - in this design, I have put reliability and performance as top priority without bringing the costs too high.
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Put the power section of the board together today and did the first power-up test. No "bang" or smoke did appear and all voltages measured correct. So, next step is to put that FPGA in place...
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Good luck!
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Check other I/Os?, esp short circuits. Or driven lines.
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The first prototype board is (almost) completed. All parts needed to run it is in place and it is ready for testing. Power-up test has been done and all voltages looks fine (and nothing went kaboom). A full run test with all firmware in place will be done within a few days - stay tuned...
Some teaser pic's:
(http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/minimig2/images/minimig20-003.jpg)
(http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/minimig2/images/minimig20-004.jpg)
(http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/minimig2/images/minimig20-001.jpg)
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Nice work, Great JOB!
Thanks for the continued effort.
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@ Illuwatar:
Excellent work.
I understand what you mean by the 3.3v and 5v differences.
Maybe it can be something I could look into doing.
To leave you alone about this subject, I am working on my own stuff. :-D
This is the Mini-Mig I would prefer.
It would be perfect if the next has 16MB of Fast Ram.
:-D
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Awesome work! :-o beautiful looking board :-)
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@Illuwatar
great job, the PCB and soldering look very well! I'll cross my fingers that your MiniTX board is working as it should.
@trekiej
I would be interested how you will make 16MB Fastram work on an 68000 system :-)
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Great looking pictures. Good luck with the project. I hope that when you finish it that someone like ACube consider a production run. A batch of cheap second-hand Minimig v1.1 assembled boards on eBay combined with this new board would help to swell the number of users.
I'd certainly be interested in a populated board and then hand my v1.1 to the kids.
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Illuwatar's Mini-ITX version of Mini-mig is the one I would prefer... If someone could fabricate a metal back plane cutout then you could use any standard mini-itx case... Standardization is the key to populating this device to the masses...
Just my 2 cents...
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Wow. Great looking PCB. Be sure to put rulers alongside when you take photos so we can get the scale.
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Amiduffer wrote:
Wow. Great looking PCB. Be sure to put rulers alongside when you take photos so we can get the scale.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-ITX
;-)
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Yeah, Henry Ford did say this. Have you ever seen a Model T? A stock one that is, which wasn't black?
All Ford Model T cars were black from the factory. I have an old car history book upstairs, if you want me to go find it ;-)
End of OT post segment :-)
The new Minimig looks great. I could put it on the wall next to my GBA 1000..
Actually just getting up the gumption and spare parts collection to get it together, I'm thinking I'll just butcher my poor 16MHz A3000's mother board-lots of chips, sockets, etc. that I could use. And the fast RAM deprived, slow 16MHz A3000 isn't doing me any good as it is :-(
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@ Tron2k2:
Thanks for backing me up. I just did not feel like arguing about it like the other times.
:-)
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I have emailed Illuwatar and I can easily adapt the Minimig I created
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
to the new mini-ITX Minimig.
I just need a board.
In doing so there is no need to use a backplate.
Let me know what you think.
:-)
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What kind of power supply is required for the mini-ITX Minimig? :-)
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The first sign of life has been seen from the MiniMig - I have managed to boot it up with the Jakub modified core and PIC firmware. I got fooled by the firmware first, thinking that the board or the crystal parts for the PIC was busted in some way as it did not start up at all. But it seems like the firmware was compiled to operate from a bootloader - loaded the TinyBoot into the PIC and everything just started to work.
There is a strange issue with the RGB->S-Video converter that must be solved - when this is done, a new series of boards could be made (with all corrections implemented).
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Illuwatar wrote:
The first sign of life has been seen from the MiniMig - I have managed to boot it up with the Jakub modified core and PIC firmware. I got fooled by the firmware first, thinking that the board or the crystal parts for the PIC was busted in some way as it did not start up at all. But it seems like the firmware was compiled to operate from a bootloader - loaded the TinyBoot into the PIC and everything just started to work.
There is a strange issue with the RGB->S-Video converter that must be solved - when this is done, a new series of boards could be made (with all corrections implemented).
Great news. keep us posted. :-)
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The cases that you made so far are great designs and if you made one for this version it would probably be appreciated by those who purchase the board...
However, my opinion is that if a standard back plane is created then you can use any standard mini-itx case. So this allows flexibility for a lot of casing options to fit every budget and allow some customization to the look and feel of one's mini-mig by case choice.
Just my 2 cents...
TheDaddy wrote:
I have emailed Illuwatar and I can easily adapt the Minimig I created
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
to the new mini-ITX Minimig.
I just need a board.
In doing so there is no need to use a backplate.
Let me know what you think.
:-)
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The video converter issue is solved: it was an software issue. The hardware runs just fine (would be strange as it is a straight copy of the 1.0 MiniMig). It seems like the Jakub core version outputs a slightly different PAL signal compared with the original Dennis core (27-04-2008 core/firmware used) that causes the AD724 (using 4.433619 MHz crystal) chip to disable the S-Video output (and give a slow scrolling composite picture). The VGA/RGB output is fine though and my TV does not have any problems on SCART. And I really like the Jakub implementation with the on-sceen diagnostics, joystick control of menu and the added setting. So, I'm little bit disappointed by this. Hope Jakub reads this and takes a look at his code...
The NTSC core by Jakub have not been tested (yet) as I have no NTSC crystals for the AD724.
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Ok, I had a look at my sources and found that in not scan doubled mode Dennis' core outputs a static one on vsync output and my core outputs vsync signal. Both cores outputs csync on hsync output. The AD724's vsync and hsync inputs are XNOR'ed so in this case it may lead to missing vsync (is the screen slowly scrolling verticaly?)
If you have connected the AD724's vsync input to the FPGA's vsync output with a resistor please remove it and apply high logic level to the vsync input of the AD724. Please tell me if it works so I will make a modified version.
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Illuwatar, did you get my PM?
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Ahh... I love the smell of retro project collaboration in the morning....
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I did the test You wanted me to do. By hardwire vsync to VCC (5V) of the AD724, I got a stable picture. But instead, all colors went wrong (black background with hardly noticeable contours of the floppy hand) and the pictures are skewed. Restoring vsync to be controlled by the FPGA, I got back the smooth vertical scroll, otherwise a clear and sharp (as sharp it can be at composite) picture with correct colors.
yaqube wrote:
Ok, I had a look at my sources and found that in not scan doubled mode Dennis' core outputs a static one on vsync output and my core outputs vsync signal. Both cores outputs csync on hsync output. The AD724's vsync and hsync inputs are XNOR'ed so in this case it may lead to missing vsync (is the screen slowly scrolling verticaly?)
If you have connected the AD724's vsync input to the FPGA's vsync output with a resistor please remove it and apply high logic level to the vsync input of the AD724. Please tell me if it works so I will make a modified version.
To all that have mailed and PM'ed me regarding buying boards: You have not been forgotten. I just don't want to give out any unclear information and I must be sure that the board works to 100%. I have to put together a complete BOM with Digikey numbers and prices to be able to get a cost figure for the parts. The board layout must be corrected and finally, the total numbers of boards have to be counted for order. For those who wants complete, working boards, be aware that I have to put them together by hand, one by one.
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@Peter
I have checked the sync signals with my scope and cannot see anything wrong. :-(
I have also found an AD724 in my drawer :-D so I will make a small test board during the weekend and see why it doesn't work as expected.
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Illuwatar wrote:
I did the test You wanted me to do. By hardwire vsync to VCC (5V) of the AD724, I got a stable picture. But instead, all colors went wrong (black background with hardly noticeable contours of the floppy hand) and the pictures are skewed. Restoring vsync to be controlled by the FPGA, I got back the smooth vertical scroll, otherwise a clear and sharp (as sharp it can be at composite) picture with correct colors.
Did you try hardwiring vsync to GND ?
What you are describing looks like hsync (=csync) being reversed because vsync = 1, if vsync is set to 0 the inversion should disappear.
Regards,
Frederic
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The csync signal has the same polarity as in the original core. But I have changed blanking to match what can be seen on a real Amiga (left overscan was invisible).
On regular VGA monitor it works ok but the encoder chip can sample incorrect black level during hsync periods if they are not blanked entirely (it could explain the very dark background). I will check it and fix it.
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I re-ran the test with the vsync connected to logic high, and this time I got a stable picture with correct colors. The previous try was failed due to a bad connection (the vsync pin of the AD724 was floating - these tiny connections are hard to see). I haven't tested overscan, only with the boot picture, but You certainly will fix this. I'm waiting for an updated core to test - when it runs fine at my board, I will declare it completed regarding electronic functions.
I did the Mini-ITX verification too today - the hole pattern of the PCB matches perfect a Epia-board and the case it was installed in. The verification left to do is to test the headers for the serial port and the joystick ports. When that passes, I will finalize the design in Protel (some cosmetic changes) and start counting the mails/PM's. A BOM must be assembled and a new project to be created at my homepage.
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Apologies for the silly question, but what's a 'BOM'? :-)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_materials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_materials)
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All clear now :-) Thanxx
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Illuwatar, do you work at Telefonplan? I think I saw someone looking like you there :-)
Nice work btw...
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Yes - I'm working at Telefonplan. Nice that not every Amiga freak is on the other side of the Sea... :-)
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My home page is updated now. The new MiniMig got its own project page (not to mix it up with the old MiniMig). Schematics and some pictures are there and more will come as work is progressing.
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Hi again - You are not forgotten!
I have been working on the production part of this thing and can present BOM and Protel drawings at my homepage. I have managed to find Digikey part numbers for almost all parts needed. And I have an estimated cost for the thing in materials: €160 for the components and €18 for the bare PCB. These prices does _not_ include any profit, shipment, VAT or assembly and they are estimated.
But I have also ended up in a rather big problem that could (would) delay the project: The SD-card holder aren't made anymore. It seems like Alps has phased it out of their product line. And there aren't any pin-compatible replacement part. This means that I have to do a partly re-design of the PCB for both the Mini-ITX and Mini versions.
Edit: The SD-holder model number is ALPS SCDA1A0900
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The PCB is now updated with a newer ALPS SD/MMC card holder. The SCDA3A0102 type became the replacement. Still, the Mini MiniITX has to be done.
I have also been reading through all PM's and mails and assembled an "interest" list that looks like this:
skipp604
Firedawg
trip6
chiark
amigadave
IOWASURFER
pyrre
jimbo100
rja4096
Some wants two boards, some wants assembled and tested boards and some just want one. Totally estimated is about 15 PCB's wanted. The prices for the PCB shown in the entry above (€18) is calculated on a 20 board run. The part price is for a single board, single order (€160). Larger buys will make it cheaper. If someone has contacts with China for direct buy, it will be much cheaper...
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Have you asked aCube if they would like to do a run based on your design? They might have the contacts and the ability to do a production run in the quantities required to lower the cost significantly.
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Great news, Peter!
I am still absolutely interested, just can't wait for my board!
Hope all goes smooth from now on. Thanks for keeping us updated.
Keep up the good work.
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Excellent work... I still say the missing piece is designing a metal backplane cutout so that any standard Mini-ITX form factor case can be used, and then figuring out how to mass produce the backplane cutout... But the board is coming along wonderfully....
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How is the SD card handled? It looks like it is still on the front of the board. Wouldn't this put the card on the inside of the case? Is there anyway to put it on a header, or at least on the back of the board with the other ports so that a standard case could be used without needing to open it to change software?
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There is a 10-pin header just at the left side of the card socket that replicates all the pins for the card. It is not mounted at the pictures. The idea is to make a small break-out board that you could place anywhere in your chassis. Currently, I don't have any PCB layout for that yet - the MiniMig itself have taken a lot of time to design and test. The same idea have been applied to the LED's and buttons - they are all available at a pin header.
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That is perfect!
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Peter, I am looking at your webpage everyday and I just cannot help the feeling that you are the electronics Wizard! Is there anything you CAN'T build? :) I admire and worship you! :-)
Like I said before, keep up the good work, mate!
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Mini-ITX minimig looks very appealling. I hope I get my hands on one of those someday.
@Illuwatar
Have you ever thougt about designing a PPC minicomputer around PPC SOC? :-P
additions:
minimig with pci slot & cpu slot ? :-P
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Current plan: assemble the remaining three boards from this prototype run (they are fully usable even with the small glitches in the layout). One of these boards will be fitted with 10ns SRAM chips, just to test if they work in the MiniMig application. If they are OK, it could be an option. These 10ns memory was needed for these arcade game emulations someone did here. There will be some ordering to get this going...
For the production run of the final board (there are now enough with interest for at least a 25-board run), I will need payment in advance for the PCB. The cost for 25 boards are little to high for me to pay. To get a proper figure, I would like everyone that really wants a board (assembled or bare PCB) to send me a email at with your forum id, number of boards and if you want PCB only or a fully working unit (or maybe just a kit with all parts). This allows me to calculate costs for both parts and boards.
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Hello Illuwatar, be sure that you order the correct sram.
You need these sram version: ISSI IS61LV51216-10TLI or you
can order also srams from cypress CY7C1051DV33-10ZSXI.
The srams IS61WV51216-10TLI are not working correct with the minimig core.
MfG
Jens
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Thank You for the info Jens. I will see what RAM I have - I need to put an order to Digikey anyway.
Regarding board interest requests - I need to set a final day for that. To avoid too much wait and delay, I will make an order for the PCBs 24/11 (24 November). The boards will be in my hands about two weeks later.
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case idea for minimigITX:
http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/commodore/1010/amiga1010.jpg
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A adapter board for the SD-card socket has been created that allows the socket to be connected via a flat cable to the MiniMig. These small boards will be order at the same time as the MiniMigs themselves.
Jens: have you actually been testing these memories? What is the reason for them to fail in the MiniMig design? The problem with the parts you are suggesting is that you can't order them as single units at Digikey (and they are also out of stock).
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So how much is a fully assembled one going to be?
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Yes, thats true, I was having the same problem.
I was talking with Yacube about the problem with the srams.
He is using the ISSI IS61LV51216-10TLI.
Normaly the other srams from ISSI should work, but I think the
problem is that the minimg is designed for 3,3V srams, so the srams ISSI IS61WV51216-10TLI are 8ns "fast".
You can order ISSI srams from mouser.com
http://de.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=tFgq3%2fJV4HgTuonxKe%2fw8Q%3d%3d
I have ordered some samples from Cypress directly on the site from Cypress CY7C1051DV33-10ZSXI.
http://www.cypress.com/products/?rpn=CY7C1051DV33
Jens
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Thank You for the links. I will go for the Mauser and order them from there.
But I still don't get the true difference. Both the "LV" and "WV" models are 3.3V parts, so that is no difference. The pinout is also the same. But I noticed some difference in the timing diagrams - maybe that is the problem: the MiniMig core relies on a specific timing that does not work with the "WV" model?
Regarding pricing of single, handmade units: I will estimate something between €250 - 300 + shipping. I have sent a mail to Acube to see if they are interested in making these. A small series must be done by me first anyway to test the final solution (annoying to bugging Acube with a design that aren't 100% verified).
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Hi Illuwatar,
you should contact yacube first again. Maybe
he can modify the core a little bit so that also the WV version will work.
Yes the timing could be the problem.
The core was booting, but the Kickstart screen does not appear.
With Kickstart 2.0 I was seeing the screen but after that
the board hangs or a Guru meditation was displayed.
Jens
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Feature-idea reminder: http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/
especially http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/ide68k.html :-)
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@jensl
afaik Tobiflex pointed that the 68000 used in minimig is not 100% compatible with original 68000 and some instruction is missing or doesn't work correctly (but works without problems with his 68000 core).
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@Illuwatar
How does the power thing work? I notice the board has no ATX-type power socket and takes power from external PSU, like the original minimig - but can it use the standard ATX powerbutton that is present on standard mini-ITX cases? The lack of power button header on the original minimig is somewhat annoying. :-)
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Illuwatar wrote:
There is a 10-pin header just at the left side of the card socket that replicates all the pins for the card. It is not mounted at the pictures. The idea is to make a small break-out board that you could place anywhere in your chassis. Currently, I don't have any PCB layout for that yet - the MiniMig itself have taken a lot of time to design and test. The same idea have been applied to the LED's and buttons - they are all available at a pin header.
Hello,
Can you make the SD-Card header compatible with the breakout board from sparkfun ?
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=204
Regards,
Frederic