Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: weirdami on July 09, 2008, 09:54:20 PM
-
I saw this (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=797=2) picture in the image-o-matic and I got to wondering about AOS4. Not considering whether or not it's legal to have AOS4 anymore, if AOS4 had all the apps that people complain about it not having as why they wouldn't switch from windows or mac or whatever, would AOS4 be modern enough? Even though we all know that windows is lame, people are doing everything on it and I wonder if a genie came by and made every computer an AOS4 computer (whatever that is), what difference would that make? I can't really think of the right words to use here, because lots of words are loaded with regard to microsoft products and some also would say that of apple products. So, if you can see what I'm getting at, post up some rockin' chatter. :oops:
Maybe I should ask if AOS4 is lacking anything that other OS's have or any modern OS is expected to have or whatever. Or, maybe if AOS4 just an adequate enough update to make old users happy and nothing more.
-
It would still be lacking memory protection and that's pretty important nowadays imo.
-
I'd like to try OS4, but if a genie came along and took my other platforms away, I'd have to say: Bad genie! Bad genie! Bad genie!
..and then I'd be on vacation for a very long time...
-
Yes, memory protection. Multiple/multicore and 64-bit processors. Modern interconnects. Virtualization. Stability and scalability.
AmigaOS doesn't have to be general purpose if it doesn't want to be; however, you can't do much as a special purpose operating environment without a solid hardware platform.
-
All I need is
Firefox (Flash, Shockwave, Java)
Thuderbird or equally cool email client.
Movie player for (MP2, MP4)
MP3 player
Open Office
DVD/CD burning
(DVDRIP, MP2 recode to MP4)
and I've got everything that I really need.
Then throw in games - wait on AGA hardware I assume I can play my old ones - sweet!
Yes, AOS 4 with modern applications and I'm there!!!
I don't need memory protection, etc. I never had a problem using OS 3.1 it was stable, fast and if it actually did crash it took me a few seconds to reboot.
-Nyle
-
I keep losing track of what all minimum hardware AOS4 needs but if there's a hardware component needed to be thrown into the mix, let's start with minimum requirements and work up from there. To start, I ask if Flash and Javascript whatnots on webpages (and in place of them) would run as they do on other platforms. That is to say, can the minimum hardware handle them. Furthermore, would an A1200 be able to handle them as they are now?
-
Nlandas wrote:
All I need is
Firefox (Flash, Shockwave, Java)
Thuderbird or equally cool email client.
Movie player for (MP2, MP4)
MP3 player
Open Office
DVD/CD burning
(DVDRIP, MP2 recode to MP4)
and I've got everything that I really need.
...
I don't need memory protection, etc. I never had a problem using OS 3.1 it was stable, fast and if it actually did crash it took me a few seconds to reboot.
-Nyle
I agree with you. Most computer users today are actually just internet users (please add MSN and some torrent client..). With the basic apps, It could do it really nice, and lots of people would comment on how fast it boots compared to (name your favorite OS).
With all the "modern" features, I still see blue screens and have to reboot so many times. So, who cares about them after all ? They are not doing their job as they should :-D
Memory protection is a goal. Maybe OS5 (an OS4 sequel, not that awful thing A Inc talked about) could reach it in this dream world. :crazy:
-
@weirdami
Everyone has their own opinion of what they would wish for, what they must have and what they consider to be the absolute minimum rock bottom features they need.
At home here, we have three pc's running WindowsXP, my MicroA1 running AOS4 and a semi-retired A2000HD running AmigaOS 3.1. I personally use my MicroA1 more often than the pc's. The other family members use the pc's, but have no interest in Amiga stuff.
Recently, my hard drive croaked, so I am running a basic installation of the most recent public AmigaOne version of AOS4 on a new hard drive. I'm posting this post using IBrowse 2.4 for AmigaOS 4.0. It works fine on most web sites that I would normally visit.
Right now I am running what I would consider to be rock bottom. It is very stable and I can still surf the net to my content. :-D
Before my hard drive croaked, my system had several PPC programs, several 68K programs, and E-UAE for old stuff that didn't like OS4. I had Final Writer 97, AWebPPC, IBrowse, OWB (a web browser in development), Personal Paint, TVPaint, Real3D, AmigaAMP, TuneNet (an MP3 player and internet radio player), DvPlayer, AmiDVD (a CD writer program), MakeCD (an older CD writer program), AmiPDF, WarpView (a picture viewer), YAM, SimpleMail, WookieChat, and many others.
What I lacked was a printer driver for my particular brand of printer and some more sophisticated office type applications.
These kinds of programs come to a stable market where there is hardware available and developers can make some money selling their product.
---
redfox
-
You should be careful of what you're asking. Memory protection makes the OS slower and kills backwards compatibility. Of course, you can always use UAE if your "Amiga" is fast enough.
-
I don't see why memory protection would have to kill backward compatibility or necessarily make the system slower. What you might kill is interoperability between legacy and current software, but even that could be mitigated with the right design.
EDIT: What I really want is OS4+ on the PS3 or some other Cell-based platform.
-
Trev is right OS 4.0 on PS3 would rock!!!
-
Pyromania wrote:
Trev is right OS 4.0 on PS3 would rock!!!
So OS4 just needs some hard rockin' hardware to make the genie poof transition unnoticeable?
-
What I lacked was a printer driver for my particular brand of printer and some more sophisticated office type applications.
Ever tried Abiword and Gnumeric under Cygnix?
Varthall
-
If everyone used AOS4, we'd all still be playing side scrollers......
:roll:
-
If everyone used OS4....
Not everyones desktop would look the same. Notice how all windows users have exactly the same computer with a different background pic? Amiga users computers are all completely customised, from the icons, to the window borders, window backgrounds, startup-sequences etc.
People would become more creative. Amiga users all have at least a little bit of knowledge about creating music, animations, pictures etc. Alot of modern PC users don't even know how to use Paint and Sound Recorder (what a productivity suit that is Microsoft). Ever wonder why modern computer magazines don't have Readers Gallery or Readers Games like Amiga Format used to have?
-
Trev wrote:
I don't see why memory protection would have to kill backward compatibility or necessarily make the system slower. What you might kill is interoperability between legacy and current software, but even that could be mitigated with the right design.
Full memory protection would require stricter memory ownership rules. However, old apps could easily be run in a sandbox.
Hans
-
Hans_ wrote:
Trev wrote:
I don't see why memory protection would have to kill backward compatibility or necessarily make the system slower. What you might kill is interoperability between legacy and current software, but even that could be mitigated with the right design.
Full memory protection would require stricter memory ownership rules. However, old apps could easily be run in a sandbox.
Hans
Besides this, you need to load the MMU tables every task switch. This may be a big memory area, that´s why a slow down was mentioned.
Blitter and Disk DMA are also a problem, as they don´t pass through the MMU. But this applies only to the original hardware
(I have some crazy ideas about MMUs, but this is way off-topic... :-D )
-
If AmigaOS4 was the dominant OS then the l337 script kiddies would have the time of their lives. Without memory protection and multiple users (or more accurately, multiple levels of authorisation) it is incredibly easy to cause havoc. Mix into that the fact that no-ones ever really tried to compromise an Amiga, there are so many possible vectors for gaining access to the system, so much old software for which online security was not about when the internet really took off for home use.
I even seem to remember there being an exploit in MUI a few years back (although it required a bit of social engineering) that could give access to a machine quite easily. There are probably millions of these kinds of things lurking about. Security through obscurity was about the best thing we've got.
-
AeroMan wrote:
Besides this, you need to load the MMU tables every task switch. This may be a big memory area, that´s why a slow down was mentioned.
Blitter and Disk DMA are also a problem, as they don´t pass through the MMU. But this applies only to the original hardware
(I have some crazy ideas about MMUs, but this is way off-topic... :-D )
Shouldn't Blitter and Disk DMA be handled by the kernel anyway? I've seen this remark (blitter & DMA etc.) several times when discussing memory protection in this forum, but I'm under the impression that this is not catered for on other platforms either, since such stuff is not part of any user process anyway.
-
@Varthall
Ever tried Abiword and Gnumeric under Cygnix?
No ... haven't tried any of these yet. I'll check further.
---
redfox
-
shoggoth wrote:
Shouldn't Blitter and Disk DMA be handled by the kernel anyway? I've seen this remark (blitter & DMA etc.) several times when discussing memory protection in this forum, but I'm under the impression that this is not catered for on other platforms either, since such stuff is not part of any user process anyway.
Yes, they should, but the software should not mess with other task's memory as well. This is why we have a MMU to protect them.
But a runaway task might set up DMA or Blitter to a wrong address, and it would end up writing someone else's memory. You can legally access blitter registers as long as you ask the OS to "own" it. You can't limit this without compromising backward compatibility.
This is Amiga-only hardware, there is no need to bother about it for other platforms. (well, as far as I know... please, someone correct me if I'm wrong)
-
If everyone used OS4 then the majority of OS4 users would be boring, looking at the same standard background and windows, etc. The reason Amiga installations are unique is because Amiga users are unique.
OS4 is never going to appeal to the masses. OS4 is not going to replace PCs and Macs. OS4 would, if it ran on say PPC Mac Minis, be a great hobby operating system for Amiga enthusiasts, and that's enough.
The lack of memory protection is a serious flaw, there's no two ways about it. All I want is to be able to play with OS4 at night when I'm bored.
-
@All
Sorry for the off topic reply. Just updating Varthall.
@Varthall
Ever tried Abiword and Gnumeric under Cygnix?
OK ... if I this understand correctly, I require the following software:
X11-R6.3 prerelease 3 for AmigaOS 4 (Cygnix)
Update for the X11 environment Cygnix prerelease 3
AbiWord 2.5.1 + osb-browser for AmigaOS 4 (Cygnix)
AbiWord 2.5.1 update
Gnumeric - a spreadsheet for AmigaOS 4 (Cygnix)
Sadly, things did not work out very well.
I got a yellow (amber) GURU message while I was installing
X11-R6.3 prerelease 3 for AmigaOS 4 (Cygnix)
After clicking the left mouse button, my system sat there with the busy pointer, became very sluggish, and I had to reboot.
Tried a few more times, same results at exactly the same place in the install.
Even tried the completely automatated setting with no feedback from the user. Machine hung part way through the install.
Needless to say, I did not get a chance to try Abiword or Gnumeric.
---
redfox
--(shooting the dancing banana was a bit much ;-) ...)--
-
DON'T KILL THE BANANA!!!!
-
From the "full" AmigaOS4.1 (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=47453) "announcement", I add, perhaps:
Required hardware: AmigaOne
Required graphics card for hardware compositing: Radeon 1xx or Radeon 2xx
Recommend graphics card: Radeon 9250
to the mix.
-
So, I got to wondering if the Commodore 64 OS, whatever that is, was able to work on these fancy quad core dealies, would it be capable of having something like Halflife run on it. I mean like is there something in the OS that would make it not possible or is it just that the hardware is too slow? Does the OS really matter?
-
weirdami wrote:
So, I got to wondering if the Commodore 64 OS, whatever that is, was able to work on these fancy quad core dealies, would it be capable of having something like Halflife run on it. I mean like is there something in the OS that would make it not possible or is it just that the hardware is too slow? Does the OS really matter?
You don't NEED an OS for a single application or game, you could just hit the hardware directly. If Valve were insane they could have released a non-OS version of HL2 that drove all the hardware directly, but the amount of work required would have been huge. Back in the day, when you were looking at a single, static hardware platform such as the Amiga, ditching the OS and banging the hardware made sense. Now you really need the abstraction of the OS to be able to support all of your potential customers. You also really need the OS to be able to multitask.
-
If Valve were insane they could have released a non-OS version of HL2 that drove all the hardware directly
There's a quote from one of the Valve programmers about the XBox version of Halflife to the effect that that version is much better because the hardware is standardized across the platform. I guess that console games can be OS ditchers, except, maybe, for the whole online score keeping thing.
Perhaps, though, since Amiga is big on multitasking, then the OS is important. That leads back to me wondering about AOS4's modernyness.
-
uncharted wrote:
weirdami wrote:
So, I got to wondering if the Commodore 64 OS, whatever that is, was able to work on these fancy quad core dealies, would it be capable of having something like Halflife run on it. I mean like is there something in the OS that would make it not possible or is it just that the hardware is too slow? Does the OS really matter?
You don't NEED an OS for a single application or game, you could just hit the hardware directly. If Valve were insane they could have released a non-OS version of HL2 that drove all the hardware directly, but the amount of work required would have been huge. Back in the day, when you were looking at a single, static hardware platform such as the Amiga, ditching the OS and banging the hardware made sense. Now you really need the abstraction of the OS to be able to support all of your potential customers. You also really need the OS to be able to multitask.
All the game developers really use the OS for is as a nice big HAL... The OS is just one big hardware driver. :-)
Most of the other services offered by an OS not important... Thus the minimal OSs supplied with Game Consoles...
-
@weirdami
Regarding hardware, you could port Half-Life to the C64, but you'd be bound by the speed of the processor and the limitations of the audio and video subsystems and main system memory. With enough storage, there's nothing that would prevent a port or even a full simulation. The user experience, though, would be quite horrible.
-
If I was on an AOS4 machine I'd spend all my time in the terminal via ssh connected to a modern machine, probably spending most of my time in emacs writing code for another machine that actually matters while collecting a paycheck.