Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: amigakit on June 30, 2008, 11:45:22 PM
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MorphOS 2.0 (http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes-2.0.html) has been released on time as promised.
Compatible with Efika (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=629) motherboard
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Well done to the MorphOS Team!
I don't have an Efika or Pegasos, but this seems to be a great achievement.
Any chance it'll ever run and other hardware, such as old G3/G4/G5 Macs? :-)
Cheers,
Mike
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@mingle
Who knows. Maybe one day in a distant future.
But it runs on Pegasos 1, Pegasos 2 and Efika ..--* NOW *--..!
:-D
:pint: :pint: :pint:
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where are the $99 EFIKA motherboards??
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On the off-chance that any of the MOS devs read this - Congratulations on finishing 2.0, it's looking very nice.
Although I don't know if you should really be boasting about adding ED to the system ;-)
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TheMagicM wrote:
where are the $99 EFIKA motherboards??
The Efika is available brand new from many sources (with variations in location, price, terms, and bundled peripheral equipment):
Australians can try contacting ausPPC, he is a member of MorphZone.org (http://morphzone.org), and he has this line in his sig:
"Want an Efika? I've got a bunch of 'em. Plus Pico PSUs & 9250s prefit into 5.25" cases. ausppc@gmail.com (http://mailto:ausppc@gmail.com)"
The (in our community) famous AmigaKit.com (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=629) lists Efika motherboards in stock.
You can also buy complete systems or Efika motherboards from Vesalia (http://www.vesalia.de/r0e_efika.htm) who also has them in stock.
Scandinavian GGS Data (http://www.ggsdata.se/efika/) was the one who shipped me my Efika. They are very flexible and good to deal with, and can build a system (even pre-installed with Xubuntu (or whatever) Linux) according to your wishes. I don't know whether they have boards in stock, or if they will restock if they haven't, but if you are Scandinavian and want to deal with a "local" dealer you could always try to e-mail gunne@ggsdata.se (http://mailto:gunne@ggsdata.se.).
Americans could check out Directron.com (http://www.directron.com/efika.html), who are currently dumping their stock of Efika motherboards at only $99 a piece, they list them to be in stock. They also sell pre-built systems. Overseas customers and people with no credit card should try to e-mail them instead of using the web shop.
Also, Genesi has now reopened their web store, in time for MorphOS 2.0 release: https://www.genesi-usa.com/store.php (https://www.genesi-usa.com/store.php)
This is the Efika motherboard built into a custom metal case with Pico PSU, HDD and GFX card. A complete and pre-assembled system in other word. They don't sell standalone motherboards.
Those were the options I can think of from the top of my mind... :-)
People wanting a second hand Pegasos 1 or Pegasos 2 (recommended) should try checking out the "For Sale" ads on various Amiga/MorphOS forums.
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Sadly i do think Efika specs are too low for the actual
times, i don't intend to compare with current PC
monsters....
However a PPC603e 400mhz with only 128mb of RAM is way
too short.
Yep Efika is actually cheap and silent and low profiled
power comsumption. But despite Morphos can do very well
on that platform (i'm sure it will), specs are still
shooooooort. RISC PPC603e 400mhz 750mips.
That means equivalent to 2 Dreamcast cpus or 65% of a
GameCube cpu (360 and 1145 mips respectively)
Way behind from what we need actually, we need an Efika
with 3x processing power and at least 4x memory.
Morphos is a lightweighted system yep, but to be
competitive in these "heavy duty multitasking" days,
we need more power. Even opening an ordinary internet
page nowadays consumes huge amounts of memory and resources
bec they're heavy loaded of stuff. And i can't even
imagine browsing and playing some HD Divx and doing other
stuff at the same time with these specs. Sorry but i can't.
It's time to believe Morphos and Efika can be an
ALTERNATIVE to ordinary PC's, with less power yes
but with effective capabilities. And not just
a system to keep nostalgics alive.
Yes i'm maybe being too critic. But everytime
we get an alternative is totally outdated when it
sees the light.
I hope the manufacturer is working on a more powerful
Efika2 ASAP at least as powerful as the SAM440ep
and keeping the first Efika as Low-budget.
And Morphos 2.0 must have the ability to support this
new board.
Am i wrong?
By the way, why these two companies don't stop
of pulling on different directions and make some
common sense?
Greetings.
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Congratulations to the MorphOS Development Team.
:cheers:
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Yes, a big congrats to the team for completing the next step in the development of MorphOS.
Does anyone know how and where to get the memory on an Efika mobo expanded to 512mb RAM?
Also, for comparison's sake, what is the speed difference between an Efika and the fastest PegasosII ever produced?
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Also, for comparison's sake, what is the speed difference between an Efika and the fastest PegasosII ever produced?
600MHz, maybe?
In practical terms that's hard to say. MorphOS 1.4.5 is perfectly tolerable on a CSPPC and an Efika is twice the clockspeed and lacks other old hardware bottlenecks. Like all Amiga stuff, I'm sure it's responsive, but lacks raw crunching power for heavy duty stuff.
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Its not only about the cpu speed. The Pegasos II has also better IDE controller, able to use USB2.0 cards and a G4 with AltiVec support. THe EFIKA is somewhere between a CSPPC 233 MHz and Pegasos G3/600 MHz.
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It looks like the final price for MorphOS 2.0 will be 150 Euro.
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Jeff wrote:
It looks like the final price for MorphOS 2.0 will be 150 Euro.
Yes, not really cheap but you don't have to buy it.
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I'm thinking about ordering an efika + video card from directron, but I don't want to lay out $95 for the case - that just seems unreasonable given it's size. Can anyone suggest a good, but cheap, case for an efika?
[edit:] bah! i figured out it's only $75 for the case and power supply if you order the video card separately... not a bad deal all around. can't wait to see it running... :)
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I appreciate the fact that the developers need to be paid for their work. This will only factor in if you want to know the total cost in advance before building a system. It's about the same as the cost of the hardware needed to run it if you recycle a couple of parts.
-Jeff
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Matt_H wrote:
Also, for comparison's sake, what is the speed difference between an Efika and the fastest PegasosII ever produced?
600MHz, maybe?
In practical terms that's hard to say. MorphOS 1.4.5 is perfectly tolerable on a CSPPC and an Efika is twice the clockspeed and lacks other old hardware bottlenecks. Like all Amiga stuff, I'm sure it's responsive, but lacks raw crunching power for heavy duty stuff.
Yeah, I guessed that it would be hard to measure the user's experience of any speed difference. Like if the screen updates would be twice as fast, or if the only real noticeable difference would be running a ray tracing program, or crunching lots of numbers managing a large database.
I don't suppose there are too many demanding programs written for MorphOS2.0 yet.
I wonder how demanding the "Classic" Amiga 68k emulation will be on an Efika? Will it be able to run the old programs at a speed equal or greater than an actual A4000 040, or 060? Probably not, but then I imagine that the Efika was not intended for that purpose. As long as it can still run some of the older programs and games at the speed of a stock A1200, the buyers will probably be satisfied.
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A note on Directron. They're located in H-Town, Texas (where I'm currently at again for the next six months.) Out of *ALL* of the PC dealers I've dealt with over the years, they are the *BEST* wholesale distributor I've ever dealt with. I'm planning on building a new quad core with them for my graphics, since I'm here.
I can't do anything, but give Directron nothing but good marks. They're a wonderful company. They're the AmigaKit of the PC world. ;-)
Hmmm.....I get paid tomorrow.
I may just go buy one. :crazy:
I just don't like the 128MB of ram and no room for expansion... :inquisitive:
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Methuselas wrote:
I just don't like the 128MB of ram and no room for expansion... :inquisitive:
The specs for the Efika say that it can access up to 512mb RAM, but to do that would the Efika buyer have to remove the SMD 128mb RAM and replace it with two 256mb RAM modules?
Not something I would want to do to a brand new Efika board. Too bad the manufacturer is not offering a 512mb RAM version, or are they?
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@ pkillo
A little heads up if you buy from Directron: their complete systems seem to come with XGI graphics cards, which I don't believe are supported in MOS. Just go for the board and case and grab a $20 (low-profile) Radeon from eBay or an Amazon third party.
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Too bad the manufacturer is not offering a 512mb RAM version, or are they?
It would probably have to be a special order. I don't think any have been built with that spec so far.
There are traces for adding an additional set of RAM chips on the underside of the board, so you might be able to go up to 256MB total without huge difficulty, other than the danger of SMD soldering. And finding the correct chips. And hoping there isn't additional support circuitry needed to use RAM at that location.
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Matt_H wrote:
@ pkillo
A little heads up if you buy from Directron: their complete systems seem to come with XGI graphics cards, which I don't believe are supported in MOS. Just go for the board and case and grab a $20 (low-profile) Radeon from eBay or an Amazon third party.
Not that I have any extra cash to buy an Efika right now, or that I have decided that it is a must have item for me, but thanks for the heads up Matt. It may save several potential Efika buyers from making a mistake in buying that graphics card only to find out later that it won't work for MorphOS, which if they are reading about the Efika from here, the buyers are most likely going to want to run.
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Matt_H wrote:
@ pkillo
A little heads up if you buy from Directron: their complete systems seem to come with XGI graphics cards, which I don't believe are supported in MOS. Just go for the board and case and grab a $20 (low-profile) Radeon from eBay or an Amazon third party.
Good to know, thanks man! I almost ordered it with the video card... should have checked for compatibility first, I suppose. :)
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The documentation on the efika is slim, at best. Am I correct in assuming this board will work with an 8x AGP card? or do I need a slower one? no luck finding one for $20, but there's a $40 one I've got my eye on... :)
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pkillo wrote:
Am I correct in assuming this board will work with an 8x AGP card?
What you want is a Radeon 9250, as these are very well supported by Morphos, I run them in both my peg 2 and my efika.
Gaz
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Very cool, as that is what I was looking at buying already (just for the price). Can't seem to find any low-profile cards with 256MB so I guess 128 will have to do....
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I once had a g3/600 Peg 1 and 1.4.5 was blazing fast (thats an understatment). MOS 2.0 is allegedly faster than 1.4.5, it should fly on a EFIKA. What would be great is if somehow BBRV would happen to be in San Antonio since he is here quite often and just happened to have a EFIKA I could buy for $99. So if you're reading this BB.....
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WHAT ARE THE ONLINE OPTIONS WITH MORPH OS2 WITH EFIKA? IS THERE A WIRELESS OPTION OR SUPPORT, (NO HIGHSPEED HERE!)
edit: oh and cd/dvd opts?
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For those who'd like to have a look, I've put some screenshots at photobucket (http://s323.photobucket.com/albums/nn472/MorphOS-User/).
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I'm glad to see that it's released, as I've had an Efika here collecting dust for the past year. But first...
Graphic cards supported:
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- Radeon7000(VE)/7200/7500/8500(LE)/9000(PRO)/9100/9200(SE)/9250,
a card with at least 128MB recommended
- Voodoo3/4/5
- SiS6326, SiS305, SiS315
- Permedia2/Permedia2v
Has anyone used a PCI video card on the Efika? I have a SiS6326 PCI, but I hesitate to try it out because the PCI slot seems to be backwards with respect to the AGP slot, and certain other PCI cards will fit into either way! I'm worried that trial&error might not be the way to go in this case.
The idea of having to hunt around for a suitable crusty old video card is troubling considering they're going to make a massive price increase in only two weeks!
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Jeff wrote:
It looks like the final price for MorphOS 2.0 will be 150 Euro.
Oh wow! That's pretty steep! OSX 10.5 is cheaper than that, how do they justify that price?
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Because they wont sell more than 5 copies :)
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Any info about the Mac Mini version?
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2 more weeks!
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Oh wow! That's pretty steep! OSX 10.5 is cheaper than that, how do they justify that price?
Hmm, in comparison, OS4 for classics is 85 euro.. but an EFIKA costs much less (and easier to find), is faster, and is more reliable than a CyberstormPPC.
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# of man hours development effort?
# of expected sales?
support?
because they can?
All I can say is MorphOS is a great product...had lots of fun with it over the years...bailed earlier this year due to finances...so I guess the price wouldn't help me either :-/
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I must say that I think that the comparison to OSX is unfair:
1) Apple ships A LOT of copies, and can therfore recoup their development cost on a much lower item cost
2) Sales of OSX is just a "platform" for Apple to earn money on oter products such as iTunes and iPod
3) I think that even with an item price of €500 and the same number of sold products as with a €150 tag, it´s still a loss project.
I think that they must have some investors backing them, thinking that the OS can one day become a good os to sell to embedded devices (such as tvs etc). And that sales of the OS to the amiga community serves two purposes:
1) A thank-you and nod to it´s legacy and roots
2) An acid test where they can meassure it´s success
To eradicate any doubts: I think the price is fair, and that the Morph dev team deserves a big hand. I have just done my big amiga purchases (mediator and tower) so I will be waiting a little before I buy efika and morph2, but I will!
Allthough, it would be cool with sam440flex and morph, but I´m not holding my breathe for that to happen... Considering where I suspect the morph dev team gets their funding from, and that sam and efika are competitors :)
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Ive been waiting for m2.0 for quite a while, and been all excited.. but I'm not paying that price and 200$ for the efika+vid card and then 175$usd for morphos, no matter how interested. 128mb is too small imo. 256mb and I'd be all over it, thats at least usefull if I need to fallback to linux, 128 not so much, plus no altivec.
Lets hope when efika2 comes out and its all super boosted, that it doesnt take so long to get a working morphos for it.
The complete total for me (efika/case/gfx card/cf2ide/morphos) is over my tipping point in finances by about $100 :(
deep sigh. I'll just have to be more envious of those who can grab it and use it :)
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Well done guys :pint:
Wish I hadn't sold my PegII now :roll:
--
moto
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I would spend those 150 Euros without hesitation if I could run it o my Mac Mini PowerPC: I got this system hoping some Amiga OS could be used on it (after seing those OS4 and Morphos running on Mac Mini PPC videos).
It's sad, as I KNOW both systems can be run in a Mac Mini G4, but no usefull info is available anywere.
I really, really hope MAC MINI support will be added in the future: OSX is pure bloatware (the only good thing about it is that it's not Windows) and Linux TOTALLY lacks semi-decent Amiga emulation: E-UAE, yes... Mr "I will tear forever with your favorite demos and games! There's no way to make me sync with your monitor refresh!! You'll NEVER get perfectly smoth AMIGA scroll with me!! Waaahaha!!" ruins the experience to unusability for me.
So only Morphos remains as a hope for my Mac Mini G4 nowadays...
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gaula92 wrote:
I would spend those 150 Euros without hesitation if I could run it o my Mac Mini PowerPC: I got this system hoping some Amiga OS could be used on it (after seing those OS4 and Morphos running on Mac Mini PPC videos).
Welcome to the club. :-D
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what runs on it?
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@stefcep2: most important for me is the inverse: "what runs it on?" :D
@colanil1200: Shouln't we set up a petition, a dedicated website or something, promoting SOME KIND OF REAL, NATIVE Amiga OS running on the Mac Mini G4?? I think there's A LOT of people who did the same thing as we both and ran for a Mac Mini G4 as soon they saw what this NIIICE, silent, powerfull machine can do! It's the most sexy AMIGA ever! :D
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I don't want to complain about the low-spec hardware or the high software price either. I just want to thank the people who gave me the opportunity to buy a new OS AND some new hardware to run it. Thanks to the Efika developers and BIG thanks to the MorphOS development team.
PS: Some of the people complaining about the low hardware specs of the Efika probably paid much more $$$ to buy Blizard PPC's & Cyberstorms - even 060s! Is that fair?
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Excellent news! I'll be home in 3 weeks and it will be time to blow the dust off my Efika and put it to use.
I've never used MorphOS so it will be interesting to see what my first impressions are. I apreciate the time-limited demo. How long will it work?
The installation seems easy enough: put the install image on a USB flash drive (FAT formatted I assume) and shove it in the Efika. I have various 2.5" IDE drives on shelves and I'll probably use a 10GB or 20GB one for testing which raises the question as to how to partition and format them. I guess after typing "boot scsi:0 morphos-2.0-efikainstall.img" I'll be able to access some sort of "HD Toolbox". Do I need a 4GB FFS "System" partition or can I just have one big 10GB or 20GB partition?
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@gaula92: As long as the court case is going on and Amiga Inc. is involved in any ways, such a petition would pretty much be a waste of energy.
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stefcep2 wrote:
what runs on it?
This is kind of the point! While this is really good news and well done to the MOS team for getting this together, it looks raelly good... but €150... for that money you do want to actually use it for something...
People on here talk about small dev teams and small volume sold to justify a high price... but, it's hard to accept when it is essentially just a luxuary item, not something that one actually needs!
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@ Darrin
The time-out is 30 min. It's enough to get a good impression. Since the rebbot time is quite fast it is okay to get first impressions of the system and play a bit around. But still it is annoying enough to make you either register soon, or give up.
Btw.: It works cool on my Efika.
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wow, there are alot of whiners in this thread. I'm ordering my EFIKA later this week so we'll see how it goes.
I agree w/whoever posted and said that people spend much more on a CSPPC when the EFIKA runs circles around it.
I bet if a version for the MacMINI comes out and is priced at $250 US, we'll have MacMINI users balking and not wanting to buy MorphOS for that system either.
Anyway, more importantly...
EFIKA users, have you tried any intense apps? Movie players etc? How did the EFIKA hold up? How much memory does it use/leave free?
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@Colani1200: Morphos is possible on the Mini: the lawsuit only concerns AMIGA OS4 (wich Ainc can put into their assholes, in my opinion, if we get Morphos intead...)
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I appreciate the work that the MOS team has done. I'm know it must have been for all who were working on this OS both a pleasure and a pain. But, though all the doubts and pressure to produce something, they did it on their own time table and that is to be respected. As for price, we are not talking about an Apple, Microsoft, or even a Linux distro, but an OS that targets a smaller special sector of computer users. Spend the money on it if you support the OS and the folks that took the time to work on it, plain and simple.
Mike
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Are there any good side-by-side comparisons available which show the differences between MorphOS and AmigaOS4, including hardware and software compatibility? Aside from AROS, are there any other AmigaOS-a-likes which merit investigation?
I'm seriously wanting to move into the PPC Amiga world. But with a dead CSPPC, it looks like my best chances are MorphOS on some new hardware than AmigaOS4 on a repaired CSPPC in a 16 yo A4000D.
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You can order an EFIKA for $99 from Directron.com and get the MorphOS 2.0 ISO.
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TheMagicM wrote:
wow, there are alot of whiners in this thread. I'm ordering my EFIKA later this week so we'll see how it goes.
I agree w/whoever posted and said that people spend much more on a CSPPC when the EFIKA runs circles around it.
I completely agree.
Hehe, perhaps this thread could do with some passive agressive moderation: Move all whining posts into a seperate thread called "We who don´t appreciate the devs that are left" or something like "we who´d like our lunch for free".
Now, that was me a bit over the line and then some with my trolling. Awaiting the appropriate reponse flame :lol:
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@DyLucke
Yet people assasinate their pockets, kill the dog, pawn the wife, and send the kids off to usbekistan for a CPPC.
And just look at the size of the efika, pc mobo makes have tried making such small cards too, i saw an amd based card with 900 mhz and 256 megs of ram which costs 5 times what the efika does.
FYI, the sam440 did 699 bogo mips.
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DJBase wrote:
You can order an EFIKA for $99 from Directron.com and get the MorphOS 2.0 ISO.
How so?
[EDIT]: Nevermind, I found the download links for the time-limited ISO. :-D
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I just ordered a EFIKA for $99 through Directron.com... cant wait to try MOS 2.0!!!!
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Great news!
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@Amigakit
Do you propose selling an Efika / Morph 2.0 bundle for example with Morph 2.0 pre installed on a hard drive ?
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Just want to say my congratulations! I'll be purchasing my copy asap :)
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zylesea wrote:
@ Darrin
The time-out is 30 min. It's enough to get a good impression. Since the rebbot time is quite fast it is okay to get first impressions of the system and play a bit around. But still it is annoying enough to make you either register soon, or give up.
Btw.: It works cool on my Efika.
Thanks Zylesea.
Only 30 mins? I was expecting a week at least in order to test some software properly. Hell, if I installed it and then my wife phoned me then that could be the end of my demo! :-D
Ah well, I'm going to buy it anyway so no big deal.
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@bloodline
bloodline wrote:
People on here talk about small dev teams and small volume sold to justify a high price... but, it's hard to accept when it is essentially just a luxuary item, not something that one actually needs!
No one "needs" anything Amiga related anymore. We could all be spending very little to run Ubuntu machines only at home. Of course we could all eat tuna out of cans to save money and not go to any nice restaurants every once and a while. We could all trade in the cars some of us own to get 60 MPG on a vespa scooter. We could tell our wives that they never "need" a nice handbag from Coach. Whats your bloody point? No one said it was a "need". Its a luxury item as you say and its not making itself out to be anything but that. Sure it can be a useful one, but a luxury item nonetheless. The big difference is, while Coach makes a bundle on the handbag, and the ritzy restaurant makes a bundle on your meal, the MOS team is likely taking a loss on this whole affair. The way you talk it would seem your advice to them would be not to develop anything at all. Its a hobby and hobbies cost money, especially ones that have a small amount of hobbyists.
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@arnljot
arnljot wrote:
I think that they must have some investors backing them, thinking that the OS can one day become a good os to sell to embedded devices (such as tvs etc).
I believe Genesi has contributed some funding to the MOS team on this project.
I think that even with an item price of €500 and the same number of sold products as with a €150 tag, it´s still a loss project.
I agree, thankfully they were good enough to proceed on this project anyway as a labor of love. :-)
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Only 30 mins? I was expecting a week at least in order to test some software properly.
You might have got that wrong: after 30 minutes, the OS slows down. After rebooting, you have again 30 minutes. Thus in theory, also MorphOS 2.0 is still free, if one really can't afford the price - he has just to organize his work accordingly.
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You might have got that wrong: after 30 minutes, the OS slows down. After rebooting, you have again 30 minutes. Thus in theory, also MorphOS 2.0 is still free, if one really can't afford the price - he has just to organize his work accordingly.
Oh right. That's a smart idea and allows people to test software at full speed for 30 minutes after (re)booting. To be honest, all I want to do before buying it is to see if it installs OK and runs the software OK.
Big question here, what's the Amiga classic software support like? Does it run them off Ambient or through something like UAE? Any support for running games from ADF files? OCS/ECS/AGA support?
Cheers.
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Darrin wrote:
Big question here, what's the Amiga classic software support like? Does it run them off Ambient or through something like UAE? Any support for running games from ADF files? OCS/ECS/AGA support?
The support for workbench friendly apps is excellent in Morphos. I've been using my peg 2 with morphos 1.4.5 as my primary Amiga for 2 years plus. I used to run miami tcp and the 68k prism2 drivers on it for example. For games and custom chip dependent apps you need UAE. The only 68k app I've used on 2.0 so far is Dirwork 2 and it worked flawlessly as with the previous version.
Gaz
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gazgod wrote:
The support for workbench friendly apps is excellent in Morphos. I've been using my peg 2 with morphos 1.4.5 as my primary Amiga for 2 years plus. I used to run miami tcp and the 68k prism2 drivers on it for example. For games and custom chip dependent apps you need UAE. The only 68k app I've used on 2.0 so far is Dirwork 2 and it worked flawlessly as with the previous version.
Gaz
Cheers.
So things like Wordsworth should be OK, but I'll need to run UAE for MorphOS to run stuff that needs the full chipset.
OK, so I take it there is a UAE for MorphOS? How does it compare to WinUAE/Cloanto's package?
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Must.... resist.... buying... new.... system... and... upsetting... wife.....
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Greetings,
I am sure this has been addressed in other posts but does it have:
>a decent browser
>email client
>and basic media player
>the ability to play BEAST and similar games
If so it might be fun to use in my tv room hooked up to the flat screen. Any thoughts? Also where is the best place to buy the OS? I know the boards are available on AmigaKit at a decent price. I am OK with paying a bit of a premium since it is such a specialty item. And what about a case... what form factor is the board?
Sorry if questions are redundant. I just pop in from time to time, but would like to support the community and like the idea of having a system unlike any of my friends.
My friend is hacking my old xbox and putting linux media center on it for me so maybe I am up in the night trying to use this (efika/morphos2) system for my tv room...?
Thanks for any thoughts and suggestions.
-wlfrancis
PS
in USA if the makes a difference
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I think the price tag on morphos is completely reasonable. It's not much more than a copy of Windows would cost, especially if you buy in the first two weeks (then it's only 111 euro instead of 150), and it's certainly a lot less expensive than many of the software packages I've purchased in the past. Of course, I'm biased here, being a programmer myself. :lol:
OK, since I'm now waiting patiently (actually, I'm impatient - I admit it :-P ) for my Efika to arrive so I can start to use morphos, can someone fill me in on what development tools are available for it? If those of us who can code put in some time in making free software for morphos, then we might just see that Mac port after all.
Personally, I don't think that they'll ever make enough selling copies to efika and pegasos owners to recoup their investment. However, if the technological hurdles can be overcome to make a Mac version, and the time between now and its release can be used to create a strong software base for morphos, that would improve the chance for the success of the platform.
In any case, I think I'm going to be very happy when my Efika arrives! :-D
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I'm tempted to spend £50 on an EFIKA to have a play around with MOS 2.0, but Directron don't seem to ship outside the US :-(
--
moto
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downix wrote:
Must.... resist.... buying... new.... system... and... upsetting... wife.....
My wife dropped a big hint to me just before I went to work about my computer habbit which is why I'm going to eBay some of my Amigas.
Since Christmas I've added a Minimig, C128 with MMC Replay, an A4000 and a new HP Pavilion 9700 laptop. In fairness to me, I did give her my old HP 8000 laptop as a peace offering. :-)
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wlfrancis wrote:
Also where is the best place to buy the OS?
I was wondering this when I first spotted the news until I figured out that you can just download it off the MorphOS website and then get an activation code online. Easy. :-D
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by downix on 2008/7/1 11:01:34
Must.... resist.... buying... new.... system... and... upsetting... wife.....
You and me both man!
I think she was elated when I reduced the 10 computer count down to 3...less so when I upped the guitar quotient because of it..but still :-D
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wlfrancis wrote:
Greetings,
I am sure this has been addressed in other posts but does it have: http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes-2.0.html
>a decent browser
yes sputnik
>email client
? yam i guess
>and basic media player
reggae is a streamer, vlc is and others are available on aminet
>the ability to play BEAST and similar games
possibly through uae is full chip is needed
> Also where is the best place to buy the OS?
Download time out demo
http://www.morphos-team.net/news.html
I know the boards are available on AmigaKit at a decent price. I am OK with paying a bit of a premium since it is such a specialty item. And what about a case... what form factor is the board?
there's also http://www.directron.com/efikakit1.html
>Sorry if questions are redundant. I just pop in from time to time, but would like to support the community and like the idea of having a system unlike any of my friends.
no problem
Thanks for any thoughts and suggestions.
-wlfrancis
PS
in USA if the makes a difference
Im in delaware
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by motorollin on 2008/7/1 11:22:20
I'm tempted to spend £50 on an EFIKA to have a play around with MOS 2.0, but Directron don't seem to ship outside the US
I could order and ship you one so long as you covered all the costs..but you might be better served someone on the East Coast offering this.
The thing probably weighs <2lbs, it'd probably be about $25/$30 to USPS Priority Int'l it to you.
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pkillo wrote:
I think the price tag on morphos is completely reasonable.
I agree, it is not cheap, but their hard work and persistence to complete version 2.0 deserves to be repaid and the price is not unreasonable.
If those of us who can code put in some time in making free software for morphos, then we might just see that Mac port after all.
Personally, I don't think that they'll ever make enough selling copies to efika and pegasos owners to recoup their investment. However, if the technological hurdles can be overcome to make a Mac version, and the time between now and its release can be used to create a strong software base for morphos, that would improve the chance for the success of the platform.
That is what a lot of us have saying for months now. A port to PPC Mac hardware will allow many times more sales of MorphOS2.0 and/or AOS4.0. Which ever completes that port first will likely be the AmigaOS of the next 5 years. (Assuming that they can get it done in the next year or 18 months)
I don't understand the statements from the AOS4 developers that Moana is dead and they have no intentions or desire to finish what they started. I personally prefer to think that they are working on it in secret and will release it only if/when they win the pending court case with AInc. In fact, maybe they will release it to spite AInc. if Hyperion loses the case.
I just wish the case was over, one way or the other. This waiting is getting old (like me). :madashell:
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@Moto I thought it was just an additional fee for international customers, but it may workout better for you through amigakit.
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@zyphoid
In their FAQ it says online ordering isn't available for international customers. I have emailed them to ask if they will ship an EFIKA to England.
@JKD
Thanks, that's a kind offer! If I don't get any luck getting them to ship it directly to me then I might just get in touch :-)
--
moto
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amigadave wrote:
That is what a lot of us have saying for months now. A port to PPC Mac hardware will allow many times more sales of MorphOS2.0 and/or AOS4.0. Which ever completes that port first will likely be the AmigaOS of the next 5 years. (Assuming that they can get it done in the next year or 18 months)
The PPC Mac platform could just maybe be the toehold the morphos developers would need to have enough income to make the next logical step: an x86 version. If they could sell 5000 copies of Morphos for the mac, they could have the budget necessary to make that happen. So, assuming they can get the OS out for the Mac, the other requirement is making applications that will attract that many people to it! Any 'killer app' ideas floating around out there? :)
I would not count on anything happening with AOS4 soon enough to make a difference. Every day that goes by without the developers being paid to work on moana (whether they're working on it secretly or not) is one step closer to the day when the Mac PPC platform is as dead as the dodo. There's a window of opportunity but, sadly, I think hyperion will miss it unless there's some sort of break in the lawsuit. given what I've being reading about moana in the other thread, it needs enough work to be commercially viable that the ongoing delay will likely be fatal to it.
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No doubts a modern Amiga like OS could be a much nicer (and more efficient) work environment than OS-X IMHO.
Port it for MacPPC and charge 200 euro!
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So things like Wordsworth should be OK, but I'll need to run UAE for MorphOS to run stuff that needs the full chipset.
Indeed. Since I don't use WW myself, I don't remember any possible limitations regarding it. With regard to FW97, one is limited to open it on 8 bit screens, though, because otherwise the paper is black instead of white. Other than that, it still runs fine on MorphOS (screenshot (http://www.pegasosppc.de/temp/MOS2FW97.jpg)).
OK, so I take it there is a UAE for MorphOS? How does it compare to WinUAE/Cloanto's package?
E-UAE ist not as advanced as WinUAE - especially the JIT compiler is missing. Furthermore, it has not been updated since more than a year.
E-UAE homepage (http://www.rcdrummond.net/uae/)
Latest MorphOS binary (http://fabportnawak.free.fr/uae/)
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MorphOS 2.0 has been released on time as promised.
When did they ever give an expected release date? I only remember the OS4-alike "when it's done" type answers when people asked abotu that.
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Senex wrote:
Indeed. Since I don't use WW myself, I don't remember any possible limitations regarding it. With regard to FW97, one is limited to open it on 8 bit screens, though, because otherwise the paper is black instead of white. Other than that, it still runs fine on MorphOS (screenshot (http://www.pegasosppc.de/temp/MOS2FW97.jpg)).
E-UAE ist not as advanced as WinUAE - especially the JIT compiler is missing. Furthermore, it has not been updated since more than a year.
E-UAE homepage (http://www.rcdrummond.net/uae/)
Latest MorphOS binary (http://fabportnawak.free.fr/uae/)
Cheers. So this is the latest MorphOS version: 2005-09-21 MorphOS/PPC binary.
Oh well, perhaps with MorphOS 2.0 and a few more users available then development might pick up again.
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When did they ever give an expected release date? I only remember the OS4-alike "when it's done" type answers when people asked abotu that.
The MOS2.0 Q2/2008 release date ha been up on MorphZone.org for around 8 weeks I think...
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So this is the latest MorphOS version: 2005-09-21 MorphOS/PPC binary
No - see the 2nd link I provided above. :-)
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Senex wrote:
No - see the 2nd link I provided above. :-)
Doh! Cheers - bookmarked ready for when I get home. :-D
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For people who still have doubts about how well MorphOS runs on a 128MB 400Mhz Efika, check out this demo video from AmiTopia TV - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izCLp5juGm8
I'd definitely get one and MorphOS if I had an income!
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Cammy wrote:
For people who still have doubts about how well MorphOS runs on a 128MB 400Mhz Efika, check out this demo video from AmiTopia TV - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izCLp5juGm8
Eugh, that bloke is talking with his mouth full. He even burped at 3:03! :roll: (http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/p/puke.gif)
--
moto
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Damn! Its about time something happened around here! Ordered my Efika this morning. $99 for the hardware $200 for the OS.
(I already have a hardrive/video card/etc....)
I'd say that beats the hell out of a $1500 CyberstormPPC. :crazy:
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motorollin wrote:
Cammy wrote:
For people who still have doubts about how well MorphOS runs on a 128MB 400Mhz Efika, check out this demo video from AmiTopia TV - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izCLp5juGm8
Eugh, that bloke is talking with his mouth full. He even burped at 3:03! :roll: (http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/p/puke.gif)
--
moto
:lol:
everybodies a critic!!!
but seriously, they got the music up WAY to LOUD. And when you do these sorts of demonstrations you have to be very clear what you are showing. it's no good to show too much and just confuse people
I like the flying pigs :lol:
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@billt
When did they ever give an expected release date? I only remember the OS4-alike "when it's done" type answers when people asked abotu that.
On April the 1st this year they announced that MorphOS 2.0 would be released within Q2 2008.
AFAIK they managed to keep that "deadline" within minutes (from a CET perspective, where most MorphOS developers lives and operates).
:-)
(EDIT: If you are truly interested in MorphOS, maybe you should visit MorphZone.org once in a while? It's the MorphOS community central hub! Then you wouldn't miss these kind of things! ;-))
BTW, I'm typing this from MorphOS 2.0 right now! I'm using nothing but the Boot CD image on one of my Peg2's (I haven't installed it on the HDD yet) ;-))
I have only begun my exploration, but so far I can say that MorphOS 2.0 rocks compared to previous versions! :-)
Thank you, MorphOS Team! :-D
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the movie playback in that video looks really nice and smooth... pretty slick for a 400MHz machine. i had a mac g4 at that speed, and it didn't do _anything_ as quickly as was shown in the demo. I can't wait until my efika gets here and I can put it through its paces! :)
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@spihunter:
My EFIKA will be here tomorrow. Damn I dont have a vid card.. I'll have to pick one up.
That video on youtube was cool.. answered my question about playing movies. I can already tell I'm going to buy MOS :)
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Put one of these beasts in a Efika-like board and you can just forget about porting to old Macs...
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=P4080
Doesn't looks nice ?? :-D
Anyway, I think I will spend my money with an Efika rather than the Asus EEE I was thinking about ...
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Cammy wrote:
For people who still have doubts about how well MorphOS runs on a 128MB 400Mhz Efika, check out this demo video from AmiTopia TV - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izCLp5juGm8
I'd definitely get one and MorphOS if I had an income!
You an me, both, sister. Maybe I can part with one of my 060 boxes in exchange. Would *you* cash out on a 4000D, CyberStorm MKIII, 128MB RAM, Picasso IV, 18GB hard drive, and UW CD-ROM for an Efika system?? :cry: Would mean saying good-bye to a lot of Amiga history on my side of things... well over 15 years.
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Indeed. Since I don't use WW myself, I don't remember any possible limitations regarding it. With regard to FW97, one is limited to open it on 8 bit screens, though, because otherwise the paper is black instead of white. Other than that, it still runs fine on MorphOS (screenshot).
Glad to see that's been fixed - FW97 gave me a full lockup under 1.4.5
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~$99 for an Efika and ~$160 for MorphOS? That sounds like a no-brainer to me!
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An observation I've had about MorphOS software over the past few years is that it's not always easy to find. There's no dedicated repository like OS4Depot, and lots of stuff doesn't even make it to Aminet.
Fortunately, there's this fantastic site (http://pegasos.kvalitne.cz/software/en/index.php) that keeps track of MorphOS native and compatible software.
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@spihunter: My EFIKA will be here tomorrow. Damn I dont have a vid card.. I'll have to pick one up.
@TheMagicM,
Yea, Directron is probably wondering what the hell is going on! They've had these boards forever and all of a sudden they all sell out in one day. :lol:
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@Matt_H,
Thanks for the link. Is there a list anywhere of 68k apps that run under MorphOS, or do most non-hardware banging apps just work?
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by redrumloa on 2008/7/1 19:17:23
~$99 for an Efika and ~$160 for MorphOS? That sounds like a no-brainer to me!
Where'd the $160 price come from? 110 or 150 EUR is way more than that currently :-?
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or do most non-hardware banging apps just work?
Yes.
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Glad to see that's been fixed - FW97 gave me a full lockup under 1.4.5
No, nothing has been fixed with regard to FW97 - it's running as well or badly under MorphOS as always: i.e. on 8 bit screens only.
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ffastback wrote:
@bloodline
bloodline wrote:
People on here talk about small dev teams and small volume sold to justify a high price... but, it's hard to accept when it is essentially just a luxuary item, not something that one actually needs!No one "needs" anything Amiga related anymore. We could all be spending very little to run Ubuntu machines only at home. Of course we could all eat tuna out of cans to save money and not go to any nice restaurants every once and a while. We could all trade in the cars some of us own to get 60 MPG on a vespa scooter. We could tell our wives that they never "need" a nice handbag from Coach. Whats your bloody point?
No one said it was a "need". Its a luxury item as you say and its not making itself out to be anything but that. Sure it can be a useful one, but a luxury item nonetheless. The big difference is, while Coach makes a bundle on the handbag, and the ritzy restaurant makes a bundle on your meal, the MOS team is likely taking a loss on this whole affair. The way you talk it would seem your advice to them would be not to develop anything at all. Its a hobby and hobbies cost money, especially ones that have a small amount of hobbyists.
By "need" I think he meant is it of any use. An operating system is no more than a means for running software. Therefore what "What runs on it?" is a legitimate question,in the context of what an operating system's purpose for existing is. No-one NEEDS expensive jewellery: it IS a luxury item that serves no purpose other than as an adornment, but nobody expects anything else from it either.
An OS is not the same thing. Amiga's are still useful eg to play old games that only run on AmigaOS, to use productivity software that runs only on AmigaOS. Sure there maybe better alternatives,but thats not the point. Whether you can do ANY of this with Morphos is the question. YOU might consider it a worthwhile hobby to just be able to start up an OS so as to open and close a few directories, and gaze at the pretty icons and backdrops, for most other people the novelty will wear off pretty quickly if thats ALL you can do with it.
This question is even more relevant given the fact that its not easy to find out what you can run on Morphos. (I tried before posting) Thankfully (eventually) someone posted a link.
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cv643d wrote:
Port it for MacPPC and charge 200 euro!
And why not 2000€?
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stefcep2 wrote:
ffastback wrote:
@bloodline
bloodline wrote:
People on here talk about small dev teams and small volume sold to justify a high price... but, it's hard to accept when it is essentially just a luxuary item, not something that one actually needs!
No one "needs" anything Amiga related anymore. We could all be spending very little to run Ubuntu machines only at home. Of course we could all eat tuna out of cans to save money and not go to any nice restaurants every once and a while. We could all trade in the cars some of us own to get 60 MPG on a vespa scooter. We could tell our wives that they never "need" a nice handbag from Coach. Whats your bloody point?
No one said it was a "need". Its a luxury item as you say and its not making itself out to be anything but that. Sure it can be a useful one, but a luxury item nonetheless. The big difference is, while Coach makes a bundle on the handbag, and the ritzy restaurant makes a bundle on your meal, the MOS team is likely taking a loss on this whole affair. The way you talk it would seem your advice to them would be not to develop anything at all. Its a hobby and hobbies cost money, especially ones that have a small amount of hobbyists.
By "need" I think he meant is it of any use. An operating system is no more than a means for running software.
Yes, this is my point. The only reason to Run AmigaOS, for me, is to run certain applications that require it... But I can run AmigaOS on my A1200 or UAE (more often than not)...
Therefore what "What runs on it?" is a legitimate question,in the context of what an operating system's purpose for existing is.
What we need for MOS is a "killer app" that needs MOS to run... that would justify its high price.
I bought a £1000 Mac with OSX 10.4... just to run Logic Pro 7.1 (the software itself costing ~£1000 at the time). Apple made Logic Pro OSX only, I had no choice but to switch to OSX.
No-one NEEDS expensive jewellery: it IS a luxury item that serves no purpose other than as an adornment, but nobody expects anything else from it either.
An OS is not the same thing. Amiga's are still useful eg to play old games that only run on AmigaOS, to use productivity software that runs only on AmigaOS. Sure there maybe better alternatives,but thats not the point. Whether you can do ANY of this with Morphos is the question. YOU might consider it a worthwhile hobby to just be able to start up an OS so as to open and close a few directories, and gaze at the pretty icons and backdrops, for most other people the novelty will wear off pretty quickly if thats ALL you can do with it.
This paragraph explains exactly my question! €150 for a very pretty system that can't do as much as my Mac (or Win box) and can't run as much software as my AOS3.1 system... that's a cost I find hard to justify.
I think perhaps €40, is the very very most I could spare just to run an OS for the sake of running an OS (bear in mind I also have to buy a new computer to go with it also!)... though... If I want that I just fire up AROS, play with it for 20mins and feel all sad how the Amiga could probably still be here if a few stupid choices were made back in the day...
This question is even more relevant given the fact that its not easy to find out what you can run on Morphos. (I tried before posting) Thankfully (eventually) someone posted a link.
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redrumloa wrote:
~$99 for an Efika and ~$160 for MorphOS? That sounds like a no-brainer to me!
Uber-expensive! They could charge 800$ and there would be BMF defending the price/distribution scheme. They'll tell you MorphOS2.0 won't make them rich but they insist in reducing the number of possible sales charging 3 times more than they should charge.
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JKD wrote:
by redrumloa on 2008/7/1 19:17:23
~$99 for an Efika and ~$160 for MorphOS? That sounds like a no-brainer to me!
Where'd the $160 price come from? 110 or 150 EUR is way more than that currently :-?
You are correct, I just did a quick estimate in my head and I was off.
EURUSD=X 115 1.5793 181.6252
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I think the ridiculous high price tag on MOS 2.0 will make it less appealing to buyers and newcomers.
A lower pricetag would make all winners at the end.
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Crumb wrote:
Uber-expensive! They could charge 800$ and there would be BMF defending the price/distribution scheme. They'll tell you MorphOS2.0 won't make them rich but they insist in reducing the number of possible sales charging 3 times more than they should charge.
115EUR/180USD is uber-expensive for our market? A market that saw an Open Source Quake II port sell for $70?
Any way you slice it they won't sell but a couple hundred units. Yeah, it is high for what it is, but at least there is something to buy NOW. New hardware to buy for $99 and OS for under $200. With shipping, a NG Am*OS solution for under $300. Sure as hell beats a second hand, slower, sketchy CyberstormPPC based big box Amiga or time bomb, flakey , second hand AmigaOne for 8-10 times the price.
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I think the ridiculous high price tag on MOS 2.0 will make it less appealing to buyers and newcomers. A lower pricetag would make all winners at the end.
I cant belive all the B#*$%ing & moaning I'm seeing all over the place about the price.
You guys must never try and buy Amiga stuff at its current market value. This is a steal for a modernized AmigaOS on $99 hardware thats faster then the old PPC boards.
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spihunter wrote:
I think the ridiculous high price tag on MOS 2.0 will make it less appealing to buyers and newcomers. A lower pricetag would make all winners at the end.
I cant belive all the B#*$%ing & moaning I'm seeing all over the place about the price.
You guys must never try and buy Amiga stuff at its current market value. This is a steal for a modernized AmigaOS on $99 hardware thats faster then the old PPC boards.
To do what with it?
It is a high price when I can do more with my existing Amiga and Mac/Win machines... my point is that the MOS team need a killer app...
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redrumloa wrote:
You are correct, I just did a quick estimate in my head and I was off.
EURUSD=X 115 1.5793 181.6252
But we don't pay the 19% EU VAT so your original price is a closer.
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MorphOs on my Efika board run pretty good. Gui is fast and looking very nice. I have some bugs (system freezes 3-4 times without any reason). Everything other working nice and stable, and I will buy Mos2.0 100%.
Only, I don't know how to make Mos boot without typing "boot ide:0 boot.img" ??? :-?
Mos20 rulez!!!!!
Thank you MOS team!!!!
PS:
Oh, I love just to looking that sweet screen blankers!!!! :lol:
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Any games or programs written for MOS?
Which Quake runs on it? Any other?
Thanks
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spihunter wrote:
I think the ridiculous high price tag on MOS 2.0 will make it less appealing to buyers and newcomers. A lower pricetag would make all winners at the end.
I cant belive all the B#*$%ing & moaning I'm seeing all over the place about the price.
You guys must never try and buy Amiga stuff at its current market value. This is a steal for a modernized AmigaOS on $99 hardware thats faster then the old PPC boards.
I think a lot of the excitement generated by this release is related to the wishful thinking of most of us that there may, just may, be a second amiga coming. Unfortunately our relity is that we have a duopoly of sorts in the commercial OS market, neither of which give us the freedom to really do what we want with out computers as AmigaOS once did, and the the open-source community is wasting resources releasing ever more Linux distros which no-one will ever use, mainly because it it the least intuitive OS of the lot. And as far as Ubuntu goes its in danger of being the VHS, or the Windows of the Linux world: dominant but inferior.
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@ TheDaddy
There are a lot of games for MOS:
Just to name a few: Virtual Grand Prix, Quake 1,2,3, Hexen, Hexen 2, Heretic2, Hypercannon, Freespace 1&2, Neverball, Openarena, OpenTD, ScummVM, Warzone2100 and more.
And of course all the classic PPC games like Wipeout, Payback, Hyperion games etc work fine too.
Lot's of emulators: Atari800, Basilisk2, Dosbox, e-uae, Frodo, genesisplus, FCEU, Hugo, Handy, MAME, Hatari, Snes, STonAmiga,TGEmu and more.
~Salvatore
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Tempest wrote:
@ TheDaddy
There are a lot of games for MOS:
Just to name a few: Virtual Grand Prix, Quake 1,2,3, Hexen, Hexen 2, Heretic2, Hypercannon, Freespace 1&2, Neverball, Openarena, OpenTD, ScummVM, Warzone2100 and more.
And of course all the classic PPC games like Wipeout, Payback, Hyperion games etc work fine too.
Lot's of emulators: Atari800, Basilisk2, Dosbox, e-uae, Frodo, genesisplus, FCEU, Hugo, Handy, MAME, Hatari, Snes, STonAmiga,TGEmu and more.
~Salvatore
how well do the emulators work?
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@TheDaddy
Some programs...
Audio: Amigaamp, Aminetradio, BnP, CDPlayer, FreeDB, Hivelutracker, Milkytracker, Proplayer, PSA, Ripper, Sid4Amiga, Songplayer
Graphics: ArtEffect, Blender, fxPaint, fxScan, Gallerius, Picshow, Pixel32, Showgirls, Snapit, SteamDraw, Titler, TVPaint
Internet, AmitradeCenter, Aweb, Beehive, IBrowse, Jbberwocky, Polyglot, Rdesktop, SimpleMail, Sputnik, SSHcon, TwinVNC, VNCServer, Voyager, Wallget, Wookiechat, YAM
Text: Apdf, AutoDocReader, BareED, Microgolded, More, Pointrider, Strange
Video: VLC, Devedie, MenCoder, Mplayer, Visionary
Utils: DirOpus, Diskmaster2, Fragment, LCD monitor test, Logtool, MorphosExec, Morphup, Polynet_NG, Polyorga, Scout, Snoopium, Wetter, VoodooX
And don't forget you can also run lot's of classic Amiga software.
~Salvatore
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@stefcep2
On my Pegasos II G4 all the emulators work just as well as on Linux and Windows (except UAE, no jit).
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Excellent!
How do they run? For example what kind of frame rate do you get on efika (Quake1 or 3)?
How is the support for printers?
Salvatore...where from?
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@TheDaddy
They run fine on my Pegasos 2 with a high frame rate on 1280x1024 (quake3 around 85-110 fps), I don't know about the Efika.
BTW here are some screenshot of programs (MOS 1.4.5): linky (http://home.xmsnet.nl/toto/mos-shots/)
I'm Italian but located in the Netherlands..
~Salvatore
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How is it at playing DVDs?
Interesting stuff. :-)
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Senex wrote:
Glad to see that's been fixed - FW97 gave me a full lockup under 1.4.5
No, nothing has been fixed with regard to FW97 - it's running as well or badly under MorphOS as always: i.e. on 8 bit screens only.
It works well enough for you to have been able to grab a screenshot! It would lock for me right after clicking the icon - before the screenmode requester popped up. I'll try again next time I boot into 2.0.
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Only, I don't know how to make Mos boot without typing "boot ide:0 boot.img"
I don't remember the exact variable (you can see it if you type "printenv" at the firmware prompt; it might be bootcmd), but just set it to the string you use to boot, I.E., what you wrote above. There's also an autoboot variable to set to "true".
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Regarding the price, it's higher than I budgeted for (and the terrible American dollar doesn't help either), but it's fair.
Given that the 0.x and 1.x releases were all free, this is the first time the developers are seeing money from end-users. They absolutely deserve to see some income.
Besides, it's free to try - that's what'll attract new users. How many other non-Unix variant OSes allow that?
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@stefcep2
stefcep2 wrote:
YOU might consider it a worthwhile hobby to just be able to start up an OS so as to open and close a few directories, and gaze at the pretty icons and backdrops, for most other people the novelty will wear off pretty quickly if thats ALL you can do with it.
But thats certainly not all you can do with it, and its well known most current Amiga users today still use their Amiga-like OS' out of some sort of nostalgia. Or at least they want to do their part as non-programmers to further the cause of an active Amiga-like OS being useable. But its unfair to compare its feature set to another OS and then declare it expensive because it does less for more money. Windows and OSX are not hobby related in the same way at all. So you make absolutely no point here IMO. The fact is this OS was more a labor of love by fellow Amigans than any type of engine for personal profit. They will definately take a loss on their time. And to be sure its a cheaper proposition as users these days then trying to get into the Amiga vintage retro hardware scene. Broken equipment even sells at a severe premium on ebay. We don't get many bright spots like this, a new OS version, newer hardware that is affordable that it can run on, that utilizes graphics cards that are still sold new. A modern web browser. This is not a competitor product to Vista or OSX at this stage!
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Crumb wrote:
redrumloa wrote:
~$99 for an Efika and ~$160 for MorphOS? That sounds like a no-brainer to me!
Uber-expensive! They could charge 800$ and there would be BMF defending the price/distribution scheme. They'll tell you MorphOS2.0 won't make them rich but they insist in reducing the number of possible sales charging 3 times more than they should charge.
I doubt they are actively insisting on seeking to reduce the possible number of sales. Are they doing so in reality? Yeah I think they are. But then they aren't forcing anyone to buy it either. The way I figure it, my 111,11 Euro went to helping replenish their beer fund a bit. And they deserve a few Żywiec for their trouble. Also lets bear in mind that their are a number of developers involved and when you split that 111,11 Euro around you are basically providing each guy with basically a lunch for a single day.
-
OK - I'm ticked off. :madashell: I've had two retailers cancel my orders for a radeon 9250 card. Anyone have any suggestions of an online shop where I can actually buy one? I'm going to be really annoyed if my efika arrives and I can't use it for lack of a video card. :(
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pkillo wrote:
OK - I'm ticked off. :madashell: I've had two retailers cancel my orders for a radeon 9250 card. Anyone have any suggestions of an online shop where I can actually buy one? I'm going to be really annoyed if my efika arrives and I can't use it for lack of a video card. :(
You have to be really careful with dimensions if you are planning on using a Genesi case. I bought a 9250 card for my Efika before the cases were out and then when I got the case the damn card was too long! :( In that case it was a Club3d brand I got from Vesalia. In my last move I lost the card but I can probably measure the case when I get home if that helps.
Newegg.com and Tigerdirect.com seem to have cards, but again bear in mind case dimensions! The card you get may very likely me longer than the Efika board (and hence the case)!
-
Well, I ordered an his radeon card from tigerdirect... it seems small enough considering the card looks to extend only about an inch past the agp connector... with any luck it will fit into the case... I should have everything tuesday so I'll know then! :)
-
I bit the bullet and ordered an Efika from Directron.
Is it possible to order a MorphOS keyfile without using the register application (inside MorphOS)? I want to take advantage of the discount but doubt I'll have the system up and running before the 15th.
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Only, I don't know how to make Mos boot without typing "boot ide:0 boot.img"
setenv boot-device ide:0
setenv boot-file boot.img [any extra boot options here]
setenv auto-boot-timeout 5000 [that's 5 seconds, adjust if you like]
setenv auto-boot? true
If you have a multiple OSes you might want to look into bootmenu such as one generated by BootCreator (http://tbs-software.com/morgoth/files/bootcreator-1.2.lha) (readme) (http://tbs-software.com/morgoth/files/bootcreator-1.2.readme).
-
adolescent wrote:
redrumloa wrote:
You are correct, I just did a quick estimate in my head and I was off.
EURUSD=X 115 1.5793 181.6252
But we don't pay the 19% EU VAT so your original price is a closer.
Oh, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I was right to begin with ;-)
-Edit- Let us do the math.
111 EUR - 19% VAT = 89.91EUR
EURUSD=X 89.91 1.5883 142.8041
So in USD, the red-headed stepchild currency, it is $142.80 at current exchange rates.
-
Oh, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I was right to begin with
-Edit- Let us do the math.
111 EUR - 19% VAT = 89.91EUR
EURUSD=X 89.91 1.5883 142.8041
So in USD, the red-headed stepchild currency, it is $142.80 at current exchange rates.
OK..I wasn't thinking of that...where is the definitive US pricing?
Thanks guys..this may turn a no-way into a doable if I can get my hands on an Efika from Directron.
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pkillo wrote:
Well, I ordered an his radeon card from tigerdirect... it seems small enough considering the card looks to extend only about an inch past the agp connector... with any luck it will fit into the case... I should have everything tuesday so I'll know then! :)
I ordered one too, plus the HIS mini bracket conversion kit, but from newegg, since both were cheaper there...
just have to convince the wife to let me get a new hobby mobo etc...
on the other hand, I'm not liking what I am reading on morphzone, lots of efika problems, lockups, etc. no sound driver, etc etc etc.
-
...on the other hand, I'm not liking what I am reading on morphzone, lots of efika problems, lockups, etc.
Total lack of QA....am not impressed after all this time to be honest :-/
The no sound driver thing I can understand..it's probably unstable or buggy...so QA did catch something at least :D
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Piru wrote:
setenv boot-device ide:0
setenv boot-file boot.img [any extra boot options here]
setenv auto-boot-timeout 5000 [that's 5 seconds, adjust if you like]
setenv auto-boot? true
That looks like stuff from a Sun SPARC machine... are Open Firmware and Open Boot related?
-
@bloodline,
To do what with it? It is a high price when I can do more with my existing Amiga and Mac/Win machines... my point is that the MOS team need a killer app...
Since when has any Amiga had a killer app besides maybe Hollywood anyway? Go use your other machines for awhile and let us have our fun here. :lol:
-
ffastback wrote:
@stefcep2
stefcep2 wrote:
YOU might consider it a worthwhile hobby to just be able to start up an OS so as to open and close a few directories, and gaze at the pretty icons and backdrops, for most other people the novelty will wear off pretty quickly if thats ALL you can do with it.
But thats certainly not all you can do with it,...... So you make absolutely no point here IMO.
THAT was my point. I don't know much about Morphos, and it was, at the time difficult to find out if any software ran on it. The official site is minimalist in the extreme, and doesn't try to promote what software runs on it. I had NO expectations of Morphos even be remotely close to having the software support that Apple or MS or even AmigaOS have, but it was not clear that ANYTHING worthwhile run on it at all. Ok so its about nostalgia, and therefore for existing users, its your money, but I doubt that many new users will go and buy this
-
Got home today and downloaded the 11mb file for MorphOS 2.0. I will have to say that it was a joy to see my Efika and ATI Radeon 9250 and 60gb Hitachi 2.5" HD finely going to work after a long storage period.
I got it all installed and played with it briefly for I had family responsibilities to attend to. I will say it was quite responsive and looked very sharp from what I could see after the install and a quick reboot. But, I will give it more of a testing tomorrow when I have more time.
For those who have not installed MorphOS 2.0 yet, remember that you will have to download the 130mb OS image file during the OS install phase, the 11mb is just the installer.
You must complete your install under the 30 minute demo time limit, or it will stop you in your tracks. Just boot up and get to installing (downloading) immediately.
Mike
-
wrt my earlier question, I guess the PCI slot on Efika is 3.3V only, hence most cards (which are 5V) won't plug into it. So I ordered a couple more cheap AGP video cards from geeks.com
new question: does MorphOS include GOOD documentation related to making MorphOS-native programs?
-
does MorphOS include GOOD documentation related to making MorphOS-native programs?
http://morphos-dev.net/ has some info on how to get started.
In general the documentation could always be better, for sure... MDC has the SDK available, tons of info and (usually) helpful people:
MorphOS Developer Connection (http://developer.morphosppc.com/)
We will be working on the new SDK with support for the new MOS 2.0 things in it, too, and plan to get it released as soon as possible. It will take some time, however.
-
Firedawg wrote:
For those who have not installed MorphOS 2.0 yet, remember that you will have to download the 130mb OS image file during the OS install phase, the 11mb is just the installer.
You must complete your install under the 30 minute demo time limit, or it will stop you in your tracks. Just boot up and get to installing (downloading) immediately.
Mike
Thanks for that tip. I hope that flakey cable connection of mine holds out for the 30 mins as it's been giving me hell for the last few months and the cable company seem uninterested/unable to fix it.
-
It should be possible to download the iso beforehand, put it on your usb flash drive and simply point the installer at it. No need to worry about the timeout waiting for it to download then (dunno how much the timeout would actually slow down the installation procedure).
-
@Golem!dk
That is exactly how i installed it on my efika, as I'd already downloaded the iso, i didn't want to download it again.
Gaz
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@stefcep2
stefcep2 wrote:
THAT was my point. I don't know much about Morphos, and it was, at the time difficult to find out if any software ran on it. The official site is minimalist in the extreme, and doesn't try to promote what software runs on it. I had NO expectations of Morphos even be remotely close to having the software support that Apple or MS or even AmigaOS have, but it was not clear that ANYTHING worthwhile run on it at all. Ok so its about nostalgia, and therefore for existing users, its your money, but I doubt that many new users will go and buy this
You say you don't know much about Morphos, and yet you felt comfortable enough to start talking about it being an OS that you could maybe close and open directories and gaze at pretty icons and backdrops, with not much else. Maybe it would have been more prudent to find out more before talking in these terms? You are just adding fuel to the fire of the chants of it being too expensive without you yourself having enough info to make a fair determination for yourself (at least at the time of your intial comments).
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ffastback wrote:
@stefcep2
stefcep2 wrote:
THAT was my point. I don't know much about Morphos, and it was, at the time difficult to find out if any software ran on it. The official site is minimalist in the extreme, and doesn't try to promote what software runs on it. I had NO expectations of Morphos even be remotely close to having the software support that Apple or MS or even AmigaOS have, but it was not clear that ANYTHING worthwhile run on it at all. Ok so its about nostalgia, and therefore for existing users, its your money, but I doubt that many new users will go and buy this
You say you don't know much about Morphos, and yet you felt comfortable enough to start talking about it being an OS that you could maybe close and open directories and gaze at pretty icons and backdrops, with not much else. Maybe it would have been more prudent to find out more before talking in these terms? You are just adding fuel to the fire of the chants of it being too expensive without you yourself having enough info to make a fair determination for yourself (at least at the time of your intial comments).
WTF?
My very first post was the question :"what runs on it?" because despite searching the simple morphos site, and more besides, I could not find a list of software that run on Morphos. But no-one answered my question. Another guy more or less raises the same question, no-one answers and he therefore reasonably concludes that if no software runs on it, then its too expensive for him to spend that sort of money on hardware and an OS that doesn't run any software. The obvious thing would have been for people like you to enlighten us both with your knowledge of what, exactly, runs on it. But no, he's then attacked for being too tight-arsed to support the developers that have worked so hard to release this. Again no-one bothers to say what runs on it. So if you can't run any software, what else can you do with the OS but "close and open directories and gaze at pretty icons and backdrops, with not much else". When a list of software that runs on Morphos was posted I acknowledged this. No-one is begrudging you your new toy, enjoy it, but don't attack me just because I asked a reasonable question that Morphos fans like you seemed to not want to answer, and in fact seemed to deliberately avoid.
-
@gazgod & Golem!dk,
Correct, the prudent thing to do is download the ISO (130mb) first and place it on your usb device then install. Was not totally aware of all the processes until I was going through the install.
Not sure where to find this install ISO file (130mb) for the Efika install. Maybe some one can point me to the download.
For those who are considering installing MorphOS 2.0 below is link to a well written article to get you started.
MorphOS 2.0 Install Instructions (http://66.196.80.202/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=fr_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fobligement.free.fr%2farticles%2fmorphos20_installation.php)
Mike
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@stefcep2
My very first post was the question :"what runs on it?" because despite searching the simple morphos site, and more besides, I could not find a list of software that run on Morphos. But no-one answered my question. Another guy more or less raises the same question, no-one answers and he therefore reasonably concludes that if no software runs on it, then its too expensive for him to spend that sort of money on hardware and an OS that doesn't run any software. The obvious thing would have been for people like you to enlighten us both with your knowledge of what, exactly, runs on it. But no, he's then attacked for being too tight-arsed to support the developers that have worked so hard to release this. Again no-one bothers to say what runs on it. So if you can't run any software, what else can you do with the OS but "close and open directories and gaze at pretty icons and backdrops, with not much else". When a list of software that runs on Morphos was posted I acknowledged this. No-one is begrudging you your new toy, enjoy it, but don't attack me just because I asked a reasonable question that Morphos fans like you seemed to not want to answer, and in fact seemed to deliberately avoid.
I have to say I would have expected that every Amiga user knows that MorphOS can run system friendly (RTG/RTA) Amiga software starting from Kickstart 1.0... maybe we should be more verbose about it.
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spihunter wrote:
@bloodline,
To do what with it? It is a high price when I can do more with my existing Amiga and Mac/Win machines... my point is that the MOS team need a killer app...
Since when has any Amiga had a killer app besides maybe Hollywood anyway? Go use your other machines for awhile and let us have our fun here. :lol:
Because I'm poor, I'm not worthy of using MOS 2.0 :-(
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itix wrote:
@stefcep2
I have to say I would have expected that every Amiga user knows that MorphOS can run system friendly (RTG/RTA) Amiga software starting from Kickstart 1.0... maybe we should be more verbose about it.
I guess there are some people unfamiliar with MorphOS and AmigaOS4.0 and their similar goals to be the next generation AmigaOS with backward compatibility with older Amiga software.
I have not been successful in getting MorphOS 1.4 for PowerUP Classic Amigas installed and running on my A4000/CSPPC, so I cannot attest personally how much, or how well MorphOS can run the older software, but I am anxious to finally get my install working and test it out.
I wonder if there are any plans to get version 2 of MorphOS running on Classic Amigas with CSPPC, or Blizzard A1200 PPC boards?
It would be helpful if the official MorphOS website had an easy to find and use list of software tested with MorphOS.
-
itix wrote:
@stefcep2
My very first post was the question :"what runs on it?" because despite searching the simple morphos site, and more besides, I could not find a list of software that run on Morphos. But no-one answered my question. Another guy more or less raises the same question, no-one answers and he therefore reasonably concludes that if no software runs on it, then its too expensive for him to spend that sort of money on hardware and an OS that doesn't run any software. The obvious thing would have been for people like you to enlighten us both with your knowledge of what, exactly, runs on it. But no, he's then attacked for being too tight-arsed to support the developers that have worked so hard to release this. Again no-one bothers to say what runs on it. So if you can't run any software, what else can you do with the OS but "close and open directories and gaze at pretty icons and backdrops, with not much else". When a list of software that runs on Morphos was posted I acknowledged this. No-one is begrudging you your new toy, enjoy it, but don't attack me just because I asked a reasonable question that Morphos fans like you seemed to not want to answer, and in fact seemed to deliberately avoid.
I have to say I would have expected that every Amiga user knows that MorphOS can run system friendly (RTG/RTA) Amiga software starting from Kickstart 1.0... maybe we should be more verbose about it.
Yes probably... But the question really is: What software needs MOS to run? Which then leads to, What software needs MOS and is better than what I already have?
A platform only needs one killer app to sell it!
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Golem!dk wrote:
It should be possible to download the iso beforehand, put it on your usb flash drive and simply point the installer at it. No need to worry about the timeout waiting for it to download then (dunno how much the timeout would actually slow down the installation procedure).
How? all i see at the web site is the boot img file!?
I don't see the 130mb iso.
I didn't know this and I have a shaky connection also. Most times I resort to my dial-up... So I may need to get started now! :-?
-
No reply from Directron about international shipping yet. Presumably they don't want to sell it to me :roll:
--
moto
-
The iso is the same as that for Pegasos users. (I think? fairly sure :))
Yup, readme mentions pegasos and efika, efika boot image is on there.
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@bloodline
A platform only needs one killer app to sell it!
No, it does not. It is just enough that one finds it fun.
With the software you can not win.
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@Moto
the least they could have done was to reply..! I called and it seems that they don't.. Sorry mate :-(
@Golem!dk
Ok then I'm on it....thanks!
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@stefcep2
stefcep2 wrote:
But no, he's then attacked for being too tight-arsed to support the developers that have worked so hard to release this.
I can see to an extent where you are coming from but no one attacked him for not supporting the MOS developers. The point was that he was saying it was overpriced next to OSX and he wanted a justification of why. He should have realized he was answering his own question when he pointed out that MOS is a luxury item. With him knowing that from the start it was pretty non-sensical to compare its price next to a fully practical product like OSX. Thats not to say that MOS has no practicality but its certainly not a fair comparison overall. Not just because of what either OS might do in the way of applications but in simple economoies of scale that a huge company such as Apple that trades at like $180US a share can do and the obvious difference in 3rd party application development that either situation would bring. You simply don't need a MOS application list in front of you to know this is a silly comparison to make.
If we want to make a fairer comparison lets take a luxury item OS against the same. Something like SkyOS. One could make arguements for or against SkyOS being a better value at 29 Euro. But at least we are comparing two small non-mainstream hobbyist commercial operating systems and their value as such.
Another guy more or less raises the same question, no-one answers and he therefore reasonably concludes that if no software runs on it, then its too expensive for him to spend that sort of money on hardware and an OS that doesn't run any software.
Re-read his posts. He actually stated he had less of a personal need for it because of him already owning classic Amiga hardware and software, reducing his need for another product that could provide the same. This means he actually had knowledge on some of its capabilities. Already owning such hardware costs him nothing now. But lets make a fairer comparison. Lets take someone with NO amiga hardware at all. Which is the cheaper path to use old Amiga applications? A quick look at ebay will teach someone very quickly how expensive classic 20 year old amiga hardware is, often sold AS-IS due to is venerable age. As a good example, recently their was a board with a broken memory slot going for a premium with cardboard stuffed in the slot to hold the memory in. Ancient PPC add-in cards have been fetching $1500 to $2000 in a bid for a chance to run AOS 4.0 (on the slowest hardware one can mind you). Now in that comparison MOS is not looking nearly as expensive running on brand new, relatively cheap Efika hardware.
The obvious thing would have been for people like you to enlighten us both with your knowledge of what, exactly, runs on it.
You are making incorrect assumptions as to my background. I don't have much practical MOS experience at all. I had a friend in high school who had an Amiga. At the time it blew away the graphics of my PC. Many years later I stumbled on a video of Amiga OS 4.0. I was amazed at how quick and responsive its GUI was, and how well it seemed to handle multimedia. Being in the IT field and sick to death of dealing with Windows issues for my job I found the idea of such a machine for some personal computing to be a fun idea. Unfortunately AmigaOnes were overpriced for me and their breakage rate was scarey. When I finally heard about MOS, sometime later, I figured I'd keep my eyes open for its custom hardware, since it had similar goals in this vein of "doing more with less". A used Peg came up in my price range some months back. I've had too many personal and business obligations going on in general since to have given much of any time to it. Hearing of the 2.0 release re-sparked my interest. So I was not being snotty and withholding any info.
:-)
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Golem!dk wrote:
It should be possible to download the iso beforehand, put it on your usb flash drive and simply point the installer at it. No need to worry about the timeout waiting for it to download then (dunno how much the timeout would actually slow down the installation procedure).
Ah, good! I have a couple of 2GB memory sticks so one of them should do the job nicely.
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motorollin wrote:
No reply from Directron about international shipping yet. Presumably they don't want to sell it to me :roll:
--
moto
I think they're just slow to respond to inquiries, I ordered very early on Tuesday and got a call late yesterday evening from them, asking if I was sure I didn't want to buy the video card they try to sell you with it. Point is it took them two full working days to get that far on an order paid up front, so I'd give them some time.
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zyphoid wrote:
the least they could have done was to reply..! I called and it seems that they don't.. Sorry mate :-(
Thanks for checking! What did they actually say?
--
moto
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pkillo wrote:
I think they're just slow to respond to inquiries, I ordered very early on Tuesday and got a call late yesterday evening from them, asking if I was sure I didn't want to buy the video card they try to sell you with it. Point is it took them two full working days to get that far on an order paid up front, so I'd give them some time.
Fair enough. I just don't want to wait too long and risk them running out of stock, or realising the demand has increased and putting the prices up.
--
moto
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Yes probably... But the question really is: What software needs MOS to run? Which then leads to, What software needs MOS and is better than what I already have?
I'm not sure it's even a relevant question:
1. The platform runs AmigaOS legacy software better than any other Amiga platform
2. The platform runs legacy WarpOS/Warp3D software better than the original and any other Amiga platform
3. The platform even runs (ran?) some OS4 only software as good as or better than the hardware platform for that.
*at least on comparable hardware
**the exception being hardware banging stuff obviously
It was designed as a transition to a NG OS but without losing the legacy so that an enitre software base was already available.
That opportunity is probaly long past and it's doubtful an NG OS will be realized on a realistic timescale so I think the devs have focussed on making it a rich enviroment for backwards compatability with some great new additions but firmly rooted in an Amiga-like OS/enviroment.
Thinking the 'Amiga' will 'come back' is delusion.
-
First off, can every one stop having a go at stefcep2... I jumped on something he said because it rang true with me.
I know I come across as overly harsh, and believe me, I know better than most how much work has gone into MOS! But I do think I am raising important questions, it the MOS team can answer them they will have a seriously competitive product on their hands... if you just sit there as apologists and make excuses, without thinking about what MOS really can do, where it need to be targeted and what is the key points required for the success of an operating system.. in it will go the way of all the other Operating systems that have come and gone.
Sure compare it with SkyOS... which is cheaper and runs on standard hardware... and still SkyOS is nothing... there has to be a lesson to learn here... I despise wasted effort and inefficiency!
The only compelling argument made here is that it is the only AmigaOS binary compatible computer system one can buy right now... but and in answer to the post quoted below... why would I choose it over UAE?
Or.. you could forget everything I have said and we watch the MOS team sell 20 copies... and disappear forever... It's up to you, at least I have tried.
JKD wrote:
Yes probably... But the question really is: What software needs MOS to run? Which then leads to, What software needs MOS and is better than what I already have?
I'm not sure it's even a relevant question:
1. The platform runs AmigaOS legacy software better than any other Amiga platform
2. The platform runs legacy WarpOS/Warp3D software better than the original and any other Amiga platform
3. The platform even runs (ran?) some OS4 only software as good as or better than the hardware platform for that.
*at least on comparable hardware
**the exception being hardware banging stuff obviously
It was designed as a transition to a NG OS but without losing the legacy so that an enitre software base was already available.
That opportunity is probaly long past and it's doubtful an NG OS will be realized on a realistic timescale so I think the devs have focussed on making it a rich enviroment for backwards compatability with some great new additions but firmly rooted in an Amiga-like OS/enviroment.
Thinking the 'Amiga' will 'come back' is delusion.
-
The only compelling argument made here is that it is the only AmigaOS binary compatible computer system one can buy right now... but and in answer to the post quoted below... why would I choose it over UAE?
I can think of a couple of things:
1. You don't have to boot a host OS (Linux, MacOS, Windows).
2. Because classic software runs far more responsive and faster on MorphOS than using them with UAE.
3. There's software available for MorphOS which you're never going to see on classic Amiga's because they are just to slow to be usable. Blender, Pixel32, MPlayer, VLC, emulators, games, etc... Just to name a few.
-
Tempest wrote:
The only compelling argument made here is that it is the only AmigaOS binary compatible computer system one can buy right now... but and in answer to the post quoted below... why would I choose it over UAE?
I can think of a couple of things:
1. You don't have to boot a host OS (Linux, MacOS, Windows).
It is easy enough to auto start UAE or even WInUAE on a system, so that you would never know the host OS was there...
2. Because classic software runs far more responsive and faster on MorphOS than using them with UAE.
That's not true... the JIT on my Dual core 2.33Ghz Core2Duo is going to be faster than a JIT on any PPC... and UAE will allow hardware hitting Apps.
-Edit- I will grant you MOS is prettier than AOS...
3. There's software available for MorphOS which you're never going to see on classic Amiga's because they are just to slow to be usable. Blender, Pixel32, MPlayer, VLC, emulators, games, etc... Just to name a few.
Err... just run them on a modern OS... they are not platform specific!!!
Come on, you can do better than this...
-
@bloodline,
I'm not sure what what kind of answer your looking for here.
If your happy with UAE then by all means just use it and forget about MorphOS. It probably going to run classic apps faster anyway.
If your looking to stick with a more modern Amiga that is still being developed then this MorphOS is all thats around right now.
Asking Amiga people to just be happy with an emulator is like asking Windows people to be happy just using VirtualPC or asking Mac people to be happy running Basilisk on Windows.
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bloodline wrote:
It is easy enough to auto start UAE or even WInUAE on a system, so that you would never know the host OS was there...
The point is that the underlying OS slows things down emulating an Amiga wich make's it unresponsive.
That's not true... the JIT on my Dual core 2.33Ghz Core2Duo is going to be faster than a JIT on any PPC... and UAE will allow hardware hitting Apps.
How good UAE might be, I find it very unresponsive compared to a real Amiga. On MorphOS running on my Pegasos 2 classic software feels more responsive.
Err... just run them on a modern OS... they are not platform specific!!!
That's not an argument, why run an Amiga(like)OS at all if you're thinking like that :P
Come on, you can do better than this...
I know I can :P
-
I emailed Genesi this morning and the Open Client Plus they are selling at the moment comes with an Radeon 9250 64mb. Is that enough memory on the grpahics card to do most things I would ever want to do with an Efika?
Also is the Efika fast enough to run most old Warp 3D games, such as Wipeout, as well as more modern games like Virtual GP 2?
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Tempest wrote:
bloodline wrote:
It is easy enough to auto start UAE or even WInUAE on a system, so that you would never know the host OS was there...
The point is that the underlying OS slows things down emulating an Amiga wich make's it unresponsive.
So the Quark kernel of MOS doesn't slow the emulation of 68k programs down... but the Linux kernel (or WinNT kernel) does?
How do you figure that? Do you even know how an Operating system works?
That's not true... the JIT on my Dual core 2.33Ghz Core2Duo is going to be faster than a JIT on any PPC... and UAE will allow hardware hitting Apps.
How good UAE might be, I find it very unresponsive compared to a real Amiga. On MorphOS running on my Pegasos 2 classic software feels more responsive.
If you paid the same money on PC components that you do in the MOS system... you would not experience this unresponsiveness...
Err... just run them on a modern OS... they are not platform specific!!!
That's not an argument, why run an Amiga(like)OS at all if you're thinking like that :P
Which is the crux of my argument, and what I was asking you to justify...
Come on, you can do better than this...
I know I can :P
Please do :-P
-
@bloodline
bloodline wrote:
I know I come across as overly harsh, and believe me, I know better than most how much work has gone into MOS! But I do think I am raising important questions, it the MOS team can answer them they will have a seriously competitive product on their hands... if you just sit there as apologists and make excuses, without thinking about what MOS really can do, where it need to be targeted and what is the key points required for the success of an operating system.. in it will go the way of all the other Operating systems that have come and gone.
...
Or.. you could forget everything I have said and we watch the MOS team sell 20 copies... and disappear forever... It's up to you, at least I have tried.
Now you are switching to a different argument though. Now you are arguing about something I would agree with you on. That being the price is higher than many users will accept and in the long run they are hurting themselves IF they want a large user base. But thats not the same as whether its expensive compared to Mac OSX (your original argument). In that comparison its not expensive given the resources of Apple vs. the MOS team and the possible user base given the required custom hardware. Should only Genesi make a profit since the Efika is really for the embedded marketplace and the MOS team not even get some beer money?? Its also not expensive compared to obtaining classic Amiga hardware if you no longer have any. Nothing defines expensive in the Amiga scene more than the going rate of classic Amiga hardware. In any examination of return on investment to the dev team in hours and money spent from their own pockets its not expensive.
Maybe they don't give a cr*p on whether they have 100 users or 1000 for all we know. Their objectives for the OS may not match yours. Maybe they'd rather have 100 users that think enough to want to give them a nice token of appreciation than 1000 that want to have them constantly working for nearly free. MOS is not an free project, AROS is. And look at the state of that OS in comparison. If people think MOS is too expensive they can vote with their feet and put a substanially lower cost donation towards an AROS bounty of their choice and see what they get for their money there in comparison. I've donated to an AROS bounty and its missed its deadline by almost two months now. And I've donated to an AOS 4.0 bounty, and I can't even run AOS 4.0. People in the Amiga community need to get real about what it will cost to do new things. MOS exists in a free market system. In an odd way if it fails maybe it will help people to realize they should donate more to AROS. Who knows how things will play out. Perhaps if MOS fails for its cost and AOS 4.0 for its legal mess we can finally all wave the flag of one OS. Or maybe the MOS team will continue to work anyway and are fine with a smaller user base willing to meet the prices they want to set.
It might be more productive to email them and say, "hey this seems a bit expensive if you really want to have a large user base, I really think in the long run thats a better strategy if you goal is to reach the Amiga masses someday" and see what they say.
Being like(to paraphrase) "whats the point I have UAE" and "man it costs more than OSX" in a public forum I don't think is "raising important questions". With your new post here I think you've now begun to. But not before IMHO.
Sure compare it with SkyOS... which is cheaper and runs on standard hardware... and still SkyOS is nothing... there has to be a lesson to learn here... I despise wasted effort and inefficiency!
You do realize I hope that apparently some people do feel that SkyOS is something rather than your declaration that it "is nothing". The developer still enjoys working on it it would seem, he has an update from June on the site. There are recent user posts in the forums. Maybe they don't want to be a big party of people. And if thats what they want thats ok. I'm sure that the MOS team knew that 111,11 Euro would make a certain population balk. Apparently they are ok with that. Would I rather more users with it being a lower price? Hell yeah. BUT that said it was not a price that was too much for me and I know they deserve the money regardless and right now it gives me something that I am interested in using.
The only compelling argument made here is that it is the only AmigaOS binary compatible computer system one can buy right now... but and in answer to the post quoted below... why would I choose it over UAE?
One needs only look at the fact that Genesi sold a number of Efikas way, way, ahead of MOS even being available to see that some people like other aspects that maybe you don't appreciate. Like building a machine. One they might view as a new Amiga. And getting a kick out of it being such a small footprint and having such low power requirements. It is a hobby after all. A great many hobbies are not practical, either in the usage of the person's time or money. And they often end up having the person take a loss if they ever leave the hobby.
Is any OS a success then only if its constantly working to YOUR ideals for trying to reach the masses? Thats in the eye of the beholder. If you are a programmer (not sure, but I noticed you said you understand the effort required more than most) why not join the MOS team and have a vote in all this for the future? Or maybe take up an AROS bounty? Or if you are not a programmer and don't have 111,11 Euro instead spend the currency of time to learn how to program to further the cause of an Amiga-like OS.
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Zetec-S wrote:
I emailed Genesi this morning and the Open Client Plus they are selling at the moment comes with an Radeon 9250 64mb. Is that enough memory on the grpahics card to do most things I would ever want to do with an Efika?
Also is the Efika fast enough to run most old Warp 3D games, such as Wipeout, as well as more modern games like Virtual GP 2?
The MOS team has recommended a 128MB video card. So I'd stay away from the 64MB card personally.
http://www.morphos.de/installation.html
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So the Quark kernel of MOS doesn't slow the emulation of 68k programs down... but the Linux kernel (or WinNT kernel) does?
How do you figure that? Do you even know how an Operating system works?
Are we just trolling now? Try comparing responsiveness of UAE and Amithlon, yes there is a difference. Now imagine if the OS itself is running native as well, ie. no emulation. There really is a difference. Sure, some current x86 box can emulate 68k faster, but there is more to it than that.
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So the Quark kernel of MOS doesn't slow the emulation of 68k programs down... but the Linux kernel (or WinNT kernel) does?
How do you figure that? Do you even know how an Operating system works?
UAE has to emulate everything of an Amiga, MorphOS only emulates the processor, that's a big difference! Do 'you' know how an OS works?
If you paid the same money on PC components that you do in the MOS system... you would not experience this unresponsiveness...
I've got an up to date system, thank you very much. I'm running Debian Unstable fully optimized to my needs. Don't get me wrong my main OS is Linux, I'm not an Amiga zealot, I use Amiga(like) systems for fun.
Which is the crux of my argument, and what I was asking you to justify...
Ooh, I've answered you pretty well I think, you are just not open for reasonable arguments.
Please do
I won't be bothering you again, go play with your UAE and be happy. You obvisously aren't openminded enough to apreciate anything else than your beloved OS, be it Windows, MacOS or Linux.
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Golem!dk wrote:
So the Quark kernel of MOS doesn't slow the emulation of 68k programs down... but the Linux kernel (or WinNT kernel) does?
How do you figure that? Do you even know how an Operating system works?
Are we just trolling now? Try comparing responsiveness of UAE and Amithlon, yes there is a difference. Now imagine if the OS itself is running native as well, ie. no emulation. There really is a difference. Sure, some current x86 box can emulate 68k faster, but there is more to it than that.
Any speed advantage would come from MOS being better/newer than AOS that one would run on UAE.
But now even the cheapest x86 can outperform any PPC one could buy to run MOS on...
But even then I ask you what actual advantage running Amiga software as stupid speeds gives? I often have to slow my UAE down (more compatible, with more accurate chipset emulation) to make software work...
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@bloodline/all:
if you're happy with UAE by all means, use it and quit griping about MOS since you're not going to use/buy it anyway.
As far as what Amiga OS software runs on MOS, there isnt a definitive list. Do you think MOS Devel sat down and installed every single application to verify its compatibility? No, thats not their job. itix answered it well, "MOS can run system friendly (RTG/RTA) Amiga software starting from Kickstart 1.0".
The years long whine "I can get an (insert cpu) and run *UAE at (insert speed factor) times the speed of (insert system)". Well then go get it. I dont see you spending any money on any Amiga hardware. (Refer back to my first sentence up top). I bet you didnt even buy a AmigaOne when it came out. (refer back to my first sentence up top)
So it all boils down to...you wouldnt buy MOS even if it was for $125 because then you'd need an EFIKA, a case, a graphics card and a hard drive...and you'd whine about that too.
EDIT:
The EFIKA runs circles around the best, top of the line Amiga. You want a compact OS like AmigaOS, well its arrived.
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@bloodline
Ok, I see the word responsive doesn't register with you, fair enough.
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Tempest wrote:
So the Quark kernel of MOS doesn't slow the emulation of 68k programs down... but the Linux kernel (or WinNT kernel) does?
How do you figure that? Do you even know how an Operating system works?
UAE has to emulate everything of an Amiga, MorphOS only emulates the processor, that's a big difference! Do 'you' know how an OS works?
Select RTG, set the Chipset emulation to lowest priority and least accurate emulation... use the JIT and set the CPU to emulation to run as "fast as possible"... a modern CPU is so powerful the few wasted cycles are hardly anything worry about.
If you paid the same money on PC components that you do in the MOS system... you would not experience this unresponsiveness...
I've got an up to date system, thank you very much. I'm running Debian Unstable fully optimized to my needs. Don't get me wrong my main OS is Linux, I'm not an Amiga zealot, I use Amiga(like) systems for fun.
Try WinUAE then, it's better than E-UAE :-P
Anyway, I don't see how the responsiveness (whatever that actually means) of the system actually makes it more useful...
Which is the crux of my argument, and what I was asking you to justify...
Ooh, I've answered you pretty well I think, you are just not open for reasonable arguments.
I assure you I am reasonable. The problem is that I sit right in the middle.. reality I call it... and don't see eye to eye with the zealots... The good ones who support new Amiga products but do irrationally, or the bad ones who are just plain weird (Like Atheist).
Please do
I won't be bothering you again, go play with your UAE and be happy.
Your loss, not mine. I will and do use UAE to run the few remaining bits of software that are still relevant and all my old games.
You obvisously aren't openminded enough to apreciate anything else than your beloved OS, be it Windows, MacOS or Linux.
My beloved OS being AmigaOS 1.3... I can't use it for anything but I still love it... it was my first, you never really stop loving your first. My favorite... probably OSX as it's the most useful to me.
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TheMagicM wrote:
@bloodline/all:
if you're happy with UAE by all means, use it and quit griping about MOS since you're not going to use/buy it anyway.
As far as what Amiga OS software runs on MOS, there isnt a definitive list. Do you think MOS Devel sat down and installed every single application to verify its compatibility? No, thats not their job. itix answered it well, "MOS can run system friendly (RTG/RTA) Amiga software starting from Kickstart 1.0".
The years long whine "I can get an (insert cpu) and run *UAE at (insert speed factor) times the speed of (insert system)". Well then go get it. I dont see you spending any money on any Amiga hardware. (Refer back to my first sentence up top). I bet you didnt even buy a AmigaOne when it came out. (refer back to my first sentence up top)
So it all boils down to...you wouldnt buy MOS even if it was for $125 because then you'd need an EFIKA, a case, a graphics card and a hard drive...and you'd whine about that too.
EDIT:
The EFIKA runs circles around the best, top of the line Amiga. You want a compact OS like AmigaOS, well its arrived.
Ok, fair point.
I just don't understand why... And I don't like not understanding.
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That's not true... the JIT on my Dual core 2.33Ghz Core2Duo is going to be faster than a JIT on any PPC... and UAE will allow hardware hitting Apps.
Well you should consider that UAE only use one core (I happen to have a quad core I know the woes of multi cores regarding uae), so you're already wasting 1 core, then you still doesn't have all the core available for uae. You should also know by now that 68k apps can access ppc libraries transparently, and knowing that most have a mos reimplementation you'll soon see that it boosts a lot 68k apps, something that's not doable in uae.
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motorollin wrote:
zyphoid wrote:
the least they could have done was to reply..! I called and it seems that they don't.. Sorry mate :-(
Thanks for checking! What did they actually say?
--
moto
You'll probably like to know this then:
Want an Efika? I've got a bunch of 'em. Plus Pico PSUs & 9250s prefit into 5.25" cases. ausppc@gmail.com
It's ausppc sig one member of morphzone
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@bloodline:
My post wasnt intended as a "stay out and stfu" either. Dont want you to take it the wrong way.
Some people have valid points when it comes to MOS price. I'm going to pay the $250 price because I'm putting my race car back together, getting married Aug 2nd, honeymoon 2 weeks later, have kids..so registering MOS will happen in August for me.
But the argument of this is faster than that, why run this? Comparing a full featured OS like OSX, Windows, Linux, just isn't fair. The Amiga world turns slow..it takes a while for things to happen. :-)
EDIT:
notice how I didnt say what year I will register MOS? Yea, now THEY have to wait on us users!! :crazy: :lol: :lol:
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The EFIKA runs circles around the best, top of the line Amiga. You want a compact OS like AmigaOS, well its arrived.
I would believe that, of course with the exception of Pegasos I & Pegasos II.
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@red:
I'm glad I said Amiga and not Pegasos. :crazy: ;-)
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TheMagicM wrote:
@red:
I'm glad I said Amiga and not Pegasos. :crazy: ;-)
Now you are splitting hairs :-P
Ok "Amiga compatible"
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TheMagicM wrote:
@bloodline:
My post wasnt intended as a "stay out and stfu" either. Dont want you to take it the wrong way.
No, but I am unnecessarily and unintentionally winding people up... No one here is really give good answers (probably because the purchase of such a system is irrational) it is probably best for me to quieten down.
Some people have valid points when it comes to MOS price. I'm going to pay the $250 price because I'm putting my race car back together, getting married Aug 2nd, honeymoon 2 weeks later, have kids..so registering MOS will happen in August for me.
But the argument of this is faster than that, why run this? Comparing a full featured OS like OSX, Windows, Linux, just isn't fair. The Amiga world turns slow..it takes a while for things to happen. :-)
Well, In the past I criticized AOS4.0 because unlike MOS (which came with the PEG or could be DL for free for PowerUP boards) and AROS, one had to pay for it... which I felt was stupid and fleecing Amiga users... I would be a hypocrite if I didn't offer similar objection to this news.
If the MOS team were to release some amazing Music or Video editing program tomorrow which was a totally radical approach to such work... and they tied it to MOS... in an instant the price becomes justified, for example.
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@Moto
Re: Directron
I think they have stock, just give them a bit more time (they might be on holiday a day early). As a matter of fact I just got my tracking number (http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/processInputRequest?HTMLVersion=5.0&loc=en_US&Requester=UPSHome&tracknum=1Z13643W0360016419&ignore=&track.x=28&track.y=10) today. :-D
BTW, for some reason on the case/motherboard combos they charge $85 for non-Canadian international orders. I'd be happy to forward a package along if they try something like that on the motherboard only (or if they never respond...). I'm sure some the Texans here would be willing to help too.
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What do you'all think of this case:
http://tinyurl.com/yox33w
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@bloodline:
Well, In the past I criticized AOS4.0 because unlike MOS (which came with the PEG or could be DL for free for PowerUP boards) and AROS, one had to pay for it... which I felt was stupid and fleecing Amiga users... I would be a hypocrite if I didn't offer similar objection to this news.
Surely you dont expect everything for the Amiga to be free do you? I'm kinda annoyed at the $250 price but I'm not going to pass up on it. Can it do what I want it to RIGHT NOW? Yes.
I am going to put my EFIKA together and bring it up to the Austin Amiga user group (hopefully alot more people go..lol) along w/my 22" LCD and do a demo. I have alot of Amiga software.. (alot is a understatement..) so I can probably test quite a bit of things out after I xfer it from Amiga to USB stick..
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bloodline wrote:
TheMagicM wrote:
@bloodline:
My post wasnt intended as a "stay out and stfu" either. Dont want you to take it the wrong way.
No, but I am unnecessarily and unintentionally winding people up... No one here is really give good answers (probably because the purchase of such a system is irrational) it is probably best for me to quieten down.
Just because you do not agree with the answers does not mean that they are not valid for the people offering them to you, and I might add for the majority of the Amiga addicts here. One could argue that any Amiga or Amiga like purchase or development is irrational, but that is not going to stop us from enjoying the many different choices.
Some people have valid points when it comes to MOS price. I'm going to pay the $250 price because I'm putting my race car back together, getting married Aug 2nd, honeymoon 2 weeks later, have kids..so registering MOS will happen in August for me.
But the argument of this is faster than that, why run this? Comparing a full featured OS like OSX, Windows, Linux, just isn't fair. The Amiga world turns slow..it takes a while for things to happen. :-)
Well, In the past I criticized AOS4.0 because unlike MOS (which came with the PEG or could be DL for free for PowerUP boards) and AROS, one had to pay for it... which I felt was stupid and fleecing Amiga users... I would be a hypocrite if I didn't offer similar objection to this news.
If the MOS team were to release some amazing Music or Video editing program tomorrow which was a totally radical approach to such work... and they tied it to MOS... in an instant the price becomes justified, for example.[/quote]
There are many that think because the Amiga and MOS userbase is so small everything should now be free. That makes no sense to me. The developers have never said that they were doing all this work just for their own enjoyment with no plans to try to recoup some/all of their investment in time and equipment.
What the developers have done is provide a more modern OS that is "Amiga-like", can run much of the legacy Amiga programs and gives the rest of the few remaining Amiga developers something to build new applications on that will run many times faster than the aging Classic Amiga hardware.
So now maybe some good applications will show up in time. There is also hope that MOS2.0 will be ported to faster hardware that is easily available at a reasonable price, like used PPC Macs. I would love to see MorphOS2.0 optimized to run on the G5 Mac hardware. Given that MOS2.0 is tiny and lightning fast compared to any Mac OS and the fact that Amiga developers have always been able to create small fast code for applications, we could see some great advances in the areas of application development over the next few years while the OS is moved to the next level and ported to something exciting like Cell or what ever is next in CPU development.
In short, MorphOS2.0 is a step in the right direction, and NO, I am not talking about the Amiga or MorphOS overtaking Windows or MacOS in the next ten years. I am talking about survival and actually some kind of growth after years of decline.
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motorollin wrote:
zyphoid wrote:
the least they could have done was to reply..! I called and it seems that they don't.. Sorry mate :-(
Thanks for checking! What did they actually say?
--
moto
Just that they didn't do international orders for eg. England,Germany. Sorry for the delay, I was on the road.
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itix answered it well, "MOS can run system friendly (RTG/RTA) Amiga software starting from Kickstart 1.0".
bcpl programs are not supported :)
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The EFIKA runs circles around the best, top of the line Amiga. You want a compact OS like AmigaOS, well its arrived.
Sorry for nitpicking... but a CSPPC with Deneb is both more expensive and faster on IO operations :-) USB2 is much faster and HD is much faster too. gfx operations and number crunching is weaker on classics.
Of course, for the price of such an equipment you could buy a complete Peg2/G4 with MorphOS2.0 that would run rings over both computers :-D
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It all comes down to the hobby factor. For some, building the machine, setting up the OS and tinkering with no real goal in mind is the purpose of the machine itself. For others, their computer is a tool, so a computer with little use would be considered superfluous.
I am somewhere between the two. I know that anything I can do on my A4000 I could do better on my MacBook, either using OS X apps or using UAE. But I like to have the real thing to tinker with from time to time, even though I know it's not cost-effective or time-efficient.
I *had* a PegII, but I realised that I had spent a lot of money on it only to find I did nothing with it that I couldn't already to with my A4000, so I sold it. The EFIKA would be a nice, (relatively) cheap way to tinker with MOS so would fill both needs. Also, I have always wanted to build a custom case with a small motherboard, so I might as well make it an Amiga-like machine :-)
--
moto
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@crumb:
Sorry for nitpicking... but a CSPPC with Deneb is both more expensive and faster on IO operations USB2 is much faster and HD is much faster too. gfx operations and number crunching is weaker on classics.
USB2 is faster on Amiga w/a CSPPC & Deneb. correct. Overall, if I were to happen to render something..who would get it done quicker..PPC Amiga or EFIKA?
All I need is my vid card..should have ordered it w/2nd day shipping.
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motorollin wrote:
I *had* a PegII, but I realised that I had spent a lot of money on it only to find I did nothing with it that I couldn't already to with my A4000, so I sold it. The EFIKA would be a nice, (relatively) cheap way to tinker with MOS so would fill both needs. Also, I have always wanted to build a custom case with a small motherboard, so I might as well make it an Amiga-like machine :-)
Ahh, now this I understand... I did much the same... though I bought a 800Mhz VIA Mini-ITX and run AROS on it...
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bloodline wrote:
No, but I am unnecessarily and unintentionally winding people up... No one here is really give good answers (probably because the purchase of such a system is irrational) it is probably best for me to quieten down.
What part of the term "hobby" do you not understand? English is presumably your first language yes? If it is it seems hard to believe you are not just stirring up cr*p for fun (for yourself). :madashell:
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ffastback wrote:
What part of the term "hobby" do you not understand? English is presumably your first language yes? If it is it seems hard to believe you are not just stirring up cr*p for fun (for yourself). :madashell:
No, he's just trying to understand the appeal and purpose of the machine, which is fair enough. Better that than consider it pointless and keep that opinion to oneself rather than explore it and possibly learn something.
--
moto
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No, he's just trying to understand the appeal and purpose of the machine, which is fair enough. Better that than consider it pointless and keep that opinion to oneself rather than explore it and possibly learn something.
Well said motorollin, I believe most of us run our classic systems for the novelty and retro experience. Now, I said most for I believe that there are few of us that use these systems everyday in their work and play. When we spend our hard earned money we consider the return on the experience for owning these machines.
The Efika for me is a hobby system that I hope will get some backing with either some future open source or commercial developing (i.e. MosphOS 2.0).
Man, that MOS2 screen look sweet :-D
Mike
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ffastback wrote:
@stefcep2
I can see to an extent where you are coming from but no one attacked him for not supporting the MOS developers. The point was that he was saying it was overpriced next to OSX and he wanted a justification of why.
:-)
Ok understood. MOS a niche product, it will always cost more than mass-produce products like OS X, that make up the money by volume. It seemed the thread was going down the common argument whenever there is a commercial Amiga release that everyone should support it regardless if its any good or useful, for fear of the developer quitting. MOS sounds like an interesting and fun product, a hobbyist OS and everyone is right to decide if they want to pay the price to play.
I waited and waited for a ppc AmigaOS but kinda had jack of it all when nothing happened for ages.
As things stand now, my next project will be a HTPC using mediaportal, which I don't need but i like the idea of recording and scheduling digital Tv, playing dvd's, and most imprtantly emulating console games such as for PSone, N64,NES,SNES, Genesis and of course Amiga on my 42 inch plasma, using a a remote control, and wireless controllers. Each to his own.
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motorollin wrote:
No, he's just trying to understand the appeal and purpose of the machine, which is fair enough. Better that than consider it pointless and keep that opinion to oneself rather than explore it and possibly learn something.
--
moto
I'm sorry moto but I must respectfully disagree. He throws around labels like "apologists" and "zealots" way too easily, which is insulting. He is unaccepting that any OS can be about a hobby. Yet ironically he has AROS as a part of his sig and bought a machine to run it. He demeans the efforts of the creator of Skyos saying it "is nothing". Yet for all we know that developer maybe simply gets a kick out of the mental exercise involved. Maybe if he were to calm down on the demeaning labels I could take him more seriously. But the way he has taken the conversation in my view, it would be the same as if I were to start off a conversation with him by saying, hey bloodline why do you have a $25 haircut with that sprig of hair in front of your face? The MacOSX haircutting company offers a buzzcut that you won't have to get redone for months and won't ever block your vision for only $5! Now if he answers "well, first I like it, second the haircutter I use is someone I like supporting they are a local shop and MacOSX haircutting is a big chain, etc, etc, etc. Now if I want to know more should I a)stay very civil while sincerely seeking to learn more or b) start throwing around labels and take on an air of superiority?
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stefcep2 wrote:
As things stand now, my next project will be a HTPC using mediaportal, which I don't need but i like the idea of recording and scheduling digital Tv, playing dvd's, and most imprtantly emulating console games such as for PSone, N64,NES,SNES, Genesis and of course Amiga on my 42 inch plasma, using a a remote control, and wireless controllers. Each to his own.
Sounds cool. :-)
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@ffastback
Bloodline is an AROS developer, so I think it's reasonable for him to buy a machine on which to run it. All of his questions regarding MOS were from an end-user perspective: "What can I actually *do* with this OS". I think they're reasonable questions.
Any problems you have with the way he presented his argument are not really anything to do with me.
--
moto
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motorollin wrote:
@ffastback
Bloodline is an AROS developer
This just throws me for a further loop. If thats the case then wanting a justification of comparing value for the consumer dollar of MorphOS vs. Apple OSX as he did seems like an odd comparison for him to want to demand. And to put an OS like SkyOS down as "nothing" when it runs Firefox but AROS dosen't also seems very odd. Do I get more for an $100 Efika and $179 MorphOS or more by donating $279 towards an AROS bounty? Which is the better ROI as a consumer / end-user?
Any problems you have with the way he presented his argument are not really anything to do with me.
Just offered my opinion back in relation to the one you presented to me on the subject. :-D
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Whatever. I really can't be bothered to argue about this.
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ffastback has a valid point.
If bloodline is throwing MOS under the bus yet he's an AROS developer...sounds like a little bit of jealousy methinks. I agree also w/his point.. spending $279 for MOS+ EFIKA, what will the equivalent get me for AROS?
Whatever bloodline's points are against MOS, insert AROS into those sentences/questions and see what answers you come up with.
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TheMagicM wrote:
ffastback has a valid point.
Now here I have to object, ffastback does not have a valid point. He has not formed a valid argument.
He is ignoring the point I was trying to make, and simply taking personal objection to my question.
If bloodline is throwing MOS under the bus yet he's an AROS developer...sounds like a little bit of jealousy methinks.
Not at all. MOS has better developed GFX and audio drivers. MOS is prettier than AROS and can run OS legal 68K apps (which AROS would also be able to do on a Big Endian CPU). I also prefer the Two level structure of MOS, with the Quark micro-kernel under the AmigaOS compatible environment on top (much like AROS hosted).
AROS has benefited greatly from a close relationship with MOS.
I agree also w/his point.. spending $279 for MOS+ EFIKA, what will the equivalent get me for AROS?
Look at it the other way around... How much would you have to spend to get a functionally equivalent (or at least as close as possible) AROS based system?
Whatever bloodline's points are against MOS, insert AROS into those sentences/questions and see what answers you come up with.
Since my only negative criticism of MOS is with respect to the high price (with respect to usefulness), not technical criticisms... I would like to think the answers you come up with would reflect my own.
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ffastback wrote:
motorollin wrote:
No, he's just trying to understand the appeal and purpose of the machine, which is fair enough. Better that than consider it pointless and keep that opinion to oneself rather than explore it and possibly learn something.
--
moto
I'm sorry moto but I must respectfully disagree. He throws around labels like "apologists" and "zealots" way too easily, which is insulting.
Do you consider yourself either of these types of people?
He is unaccepting that any OS can be about a hobby.
Not at all, I run many many Operating Systems... It is to some degree a hobby.
Yet ironically he has AROS as a part of his sig and bought a machine to run it.
Not ironic at all. I bought a very cheap tiny board because I wanted to build a small form factor machine... which I could then use to play with various Operating Systems of my choice... there are plenty of Hobby operating system to download and run on it.
My personal favorite, for various reasons, happens to be AROS.
He demeans the efforts of the creator of Skyos saying it "is nothing". Yet for all we know that developer maybe simply gets a kick out of the mental exercise involved.
SkyOS only costs €29, but I wouldn't find it either interesting or useful anymore... I used to play with it when it was free.
Maybe if he were to calm down on the demeaning labels I could take him more seriously.
Then feel free to use whichever labels you wish.
But the way he has taken the conversation in my view, it would be the same as if I were to start off a conversation with him by saying, hey bloodline why do you have a $25 haircut with that sprig of hair in front of your face?
Actually, I didn't charge myself anything or the time taken to run the clippers around the back and sides of my head... I'm clearly missing a trick here.
-Edit- The sprig, as cool as it is, was actually my hair falling in front of my face during the image capture... a few milliseconds later the rest of my fringe followed suit.
The MacOSX haircutting company offers a buzzcut that you won't have to get redone for months and won't ever block your vision for only $5! Now if he answers "well, first I like it, second the haircutter I use is someone I like supporting they are a local shop and MacOSX haircutting is a big chain, etc, etc, etc.
Not really a good metaphor... but made me laugh.
Now if I want to know more should I a)stay very civil while sincerely seeking to learn more or b) start throwing around labels and take on an air of superiority?
My obsessive nature will lead me to be horribly pedantic, but I stick by my choice of words. I have tried to express my points clearly and without ambiguity.
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Now here I have to object, ffastback does not have a valid point. He has not formed a valid argument.
You mean in your opinion... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
And you have every right to your opinions and you have the right of free speech to call people names. Oh well. :-)
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I'm glad they released it. Now my PEG II has something worth running. Hopefully they fix Efika related issues soon and perhaps port it to some other systems also as it seems that Efikas will not be manufactured anymore :(. Maybe PS3 ;)
Anyways my Radeon 9200 arrives tomorrow so I hope I'll be soon posting from Sputnik :)
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I really hope MorphOS is released for old mac hardware ie G3 iMacs as they are much faster than the EFIKA and can be picked up for next to nothing!
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Well it has been reported that MOS 2.0 will be ported to G4 MAC Mini. There is already a video of MOS running on G4 MAC Mini, but who knows when it comes out. It seems like they have to do a ton of fixing on Efika first before focusing on any other ports.
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Quote By adolescent
"But we don't pay the 19% EU VAT so your original price is a closer."
From my experience that EU VAT charge does not apply to customers outside of the EU.
Can someone tell me here if the € 111.11 is with or without the VAT charge?
Not sure if the EU VAT is built into the € 111.11 for everyone or for those that it applies to if its added on to the total, but one thing is for sure I was charged € 111.11 ($178.40) for my MorphOS 2.0 Software License.
PayPal Conversion Rate as of Jul. 8, 2008: 1 U.S. Dollar = 0.622844 Euros
Thanks,
Mike
Updated response by Ralph Schmidt with MorphOS Team:
"Yes, but as I've already told a few others because of the virtual
nature of the transaction I can't prove securely to my local tax
office that the customer was outside the EU.
Sorry, but any trouble about this with my local tax office isn't
worth to mess with this.
P.S. VAT here in germany/EU is always calculated on every
inner EU transaction(internet/mailorder doesn't matter)
unlike in the USA.
Regards"
Well, the added cost of VAT + the ever dropping USD will cost me an addition $34USD, but its was my decision to purchase it any way. :-D
Mike
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VAT is charged for EVERYONE. EU or not EU. everyone pays 111 then 150euro.
MOS Team decided it was too hard to figure out who should/not get VAT etc. so flat charged everyone.
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I'm still waiting on parts.. my EFIKA should look pretty sweet. I'll play around with the demo version for a while before I register though. I'll probably run SuSE on it though..lookin forward to that.
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Do I get more for an $100 Efika and $179 MorphOS or more by donating $279 towards an AROS bounty? Which is the better ROI as a consumer / end-user?
From a customer's viewpoint and in the long term, an AROS donation, of course.
The reason is that you can run AROS in the hardware you choose.
And to put an OS like SkyOS down as "nothing" when it runs Firefox but AROS dosen't also seems very odd.
You can run AROS hosted and Firefox together :-)
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all right ... i have my efika, and the video card should arrive within the hour. now I have to wonder which pin on the ide connector is pin 1. I decided to go with an ide to cf adapter for this box, but now which way to insert it?!? the efika board isn't labelled....
(apologies if this is covered somewhere else, I searched and couldn't find anything)
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@pkillo
Looking at the Efika's 44 pin IDE female connector, pin 1 will start top left.
Mike
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yakumo9275 wrote:
VAT is charged for EVERYONE. EU or not EU. everyone pays 111 then 150euro.
MOS Team decided it was too hard to figure out who should/not get VAT etc. so flat charged everyone.
They *really* need to talk to a tax lawyer, charging VAT to people outside the EU is almost certainly a criminal offence.
It's a complex subject (even within the EU different countries have different rates, it works in different ways and it's different again if a company is buying it). however, if they can write an entire OS writing (or just downloading) the relevant server script isn't exactly going to be difficult...
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Firedawg wrote:
@pkillo
Looking at the Efika's 44 pin IDE female connector, pin 1 will start top left.
Thanks very much, that should get me going - just as soon as I've actually got a low profile video card. TigerDirect sold me an HIS card as low profile, which I've just received, and it's definitely NOT low profile. Now I'm in exactly the annoying situation I didn't want to be in - trying to get a video card before the 'discount' deadline on MorphOS runs out and the price goes up $100. :griping:
They really need to write drivers for some video cards that are actually available on the market. Low profile 128MB AGP cards with the chipsets listed as compatible are few and far between. Despite the really nice quality of the case directron has sold me, I wish I'd bought something that would let me fit a standard height video card in it, or even a vertically mounted PCI card. Now I know why they [directron] called me twice to be sure I didn't want the bundled video card... you can't find any others that will fit!! :madashell:
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minator wrote:
They *really* need to talk to a tax lawyer, charging VAT to people outside the EU is almost certainly a criminal offence.
I'm not a tax lawyer, but I can tell you that this particular issue I know since I've been working with e-commerce solutions for 8 years, and I know the business quite well.
The laws in EU and most western countries state that you must collect taxes and fees. The exception to the rule is if you know that the person you're selling to is exempt. But you need to be able to prove it.
Also the rationale is that most countries have a tax cooperation. Which mean that I as a Norwegian customer do not have to pay Norwegian tax on the product I import if I can prove that I have paid tax in the source country.
These are the EU area rules (Norway is a partner, though not a member). And similar rules apply in Canada, US, Common Wealth and many Industrialized Asian countries.
So when a business is not charging foreign customers local taxes that apply to their national customers, they are actually providing you an extra service.
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VAT/sales tax collection is built into PayPal merchant services, so it's not really an extra service they are providing. Paypal should provide enough of a receipt for the tax man.
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/cps/shipping/EasyCalculateShipAndTax-outside
I'm very disappointed about this. I guess I'll have to enjoy MOS in 30 minute chunks until they get their act straight.
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You guys are whining about few bucks. Usually Europeans have to pay much more than the Americans. Lets compare Mac Pro prices. For Europeans standard Mac Pro cost 2.048,36 EUR ex VAT and if VAT is included the price jumps to 2.499,00 EUR. Americans only have to pay 1.779,80 EUR ($2.799). At the time when euro was weaker than the dollar I could somehow understand this, but now one euro is almost 1.60 dollars!
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Posting this from the MorphOS 2 demo I just installed on my Efika.
I have a Radeon 9200 AGP. It bumps into the wires coming out of the ATX power connector. Oh well.
I used a Transcend 4GB USB flash drive to hold the boot image and the downloaded ISO.
A couple hints:
1) when typing the boot command at the smartfirmware prompt, the image filename is case sensitive (being a Windows user, I'm not used to that B.S.)
2) you can't install MorphOS onto a FAT partition (it won't work worth crap). Change the harddisk from MBR to RDB and use FFS (probably some other stups work too but that is what I'm using)
This seems like a nice system after all, too bad there's no sound yet.
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DamageX wrote:
Posting this from the MorphOS 2 demo I just installed on my Efika.
I have a Radeon 9200 AGP. It bumps into the wires coming out of the ATX power connector. Oh well.
I used a Transcend 4GB USB flash drive to hold the boot image and the downloaded ISO.
A couple hints:
1) when typing the boot command at the smartfirmware prompt, the image filename is case sensitive (being a Windows user, I'm not used to that B.S.)
2) you can't install MorphOS onto a FAT partition (it won't work worth crap). Change the harddisk from MBR to RDB and use FFS (probably some other stups work too but that is what I'm using)
This seems like a nice system after all, too bad there's no sound yet.
Please *don't* use FFS. best choice is SFS. Only on Peg1 FFS is required for teh partition that holds the boot.img, since the Peg1's firmware cannot access SFS partitions. the firmware of the Peg2 & the Efika can, thus avoid FFS - it is not safe and also slow.
A good decision might be to create a really small partition (a few MBs) and put there the boot.img seperately. This partition *must not* be maked as bootable and does not need to be automounted by MorphOS. Thus you cannot delete the boot.img by mistake from MorphOS (the drive is not mounted). IMO the most clean way to maintain your system.
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Jakodemus wrote:
You guys are whining about few bucks. Usually Europeans have to pay much more than the Americans. Lets compare Mac Pro prices. For Europeans standard Mac Pro cost 2.048,36 EUR ex VAT and if VAT is included the price jumps to 2.499,00 EUR. Americans only have to pay 1.779,80 EUR ($2.799). At the time when euro was weaker than the dollar I could somehow understand this, but now one euro is almost 1.60 dollars!
Apple is a US company, so tariffs are applied when selling products in the EU. Add to that the cost of doing business in the EU (as a foriegn company) and there is your markup.
Now, why not just buy from the US and pay your local import tax/dutys? Surely it's not 500 EUR to ship and import a computer?
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Well I've gone and done it and ordered an Open Client Efika from Genesi this evening. Should have it within the week!!
Haven't used an Amiga based system on a regular basis for at least 8 years now, so looking forward to it. Hopefully installation of Morph OS 2.0 won't be too hard for a non-techy like me. Just getting it to have a play around really and dust off some of my old Amiga software.
Anybody want to buy my SX-32 Pro to finance this?