Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: arkpandora on June 30, 2008, 11:21:06 PM
-
Hi,
I am considering buying a Minimig, but as I am not a specialist I would like to ask you Minimig users/specialists some questions/confirmations.
1. Can you confirm that the scan-doubled signal is digital, in other words that especially animation quality is identical to the one of an Amiga with a CRT video monitor or an Amiga through a Picasso IV's scan-doubler for example, and not the ugly animation quality I get with LCD TV/monitors scan-doubling analog Amiga input ?
2. Can you confirm that you need a 50 Hz monitor ?
3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?
4. Is it worth waiting for a possible update of the Minimig before buying one ?
Thank you for any help !
-
arkpandora wrote:
Hi,
I am considering buying a Minimig, but as I am not a specialist I would like to ask you Minimig users/specialists some questions/confirmations.
1. Can you confirm that the scan-doubled signal is digital, in other words that especially animation quality is identical to the one of an Amiga with a CRT video monitor or an Amiga through a Picasso IV's scan-doubler for example, and not the ugly animation quality I get with LCD TV/monitors scan-doubling analog Amiga input ?
2. Can you confirm that you need a 50 Hz monitor ?
3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?
4. Is it worth waiting for a possible update of the Minimig before buying one ?
Thank you for any help !
RE Question 4.
It could be argued that that attitude got the Amiga in the state it`s in now?
-
Well, good question - I mean good answer.
Not as far as I'm concerned, as if I don't receive any answer I will buy one, and if the answer is "Yes" I would only wait because I already have what I need - that is a classic Amiga. Anyway I don't think that waiting potential customers had any influence in the Amiga's destiny, as they are not a distinguishing feature of the Amiga, or only as a consequence of other factors, which as far as I'm concerned were and would still be a reason to buy an Amiga.
-
arkpandora wrote:
Well, good question - I mean good answer.
Not as far as I'm concerned, as if I don't receive any answer I will buy one, and if the answer is "Yes" I would only wait because I already have what I need - that is a classic Amiga. Anyway I don't think that waiting potential customers had any influence in the Amiga's destiny, as they are not a distinguishing feature of the Amiga, or only as a consequence of other factors, which as far as I'm concerned were and would still be a reason to buy an Amiga.
Fair enough. I was just remembering a rant that CU Amiga Magazine had in it`s last issue. It was basically blaming A500 owners who didn`t upgrade as the cause of Amiga development stopping. I would agree with that statement.
However, a quick glance at one of the polls on this site reveals that most people`s first Amiga was an A500. So without the A500, there would have been no Amiga user base in the first place!!
I started out with an A600 (all my mates had A500s). It looked soooo much better than the A500 - shame about the lack of edge connector though. Then after a few years I got an A1200, then several more A1200s, then an A4000. Yipee!!
-
Tension wrote:
arkpandora wrote:
Well, good question - I mean good answer.
Not as far as I'm concerned, as if I don't receive any answer I will buy one, and if the answer is "Yes" I would only wait because I already have what I need - that is a classic Amiga. Anyway I don't think that waiting potential customers had any influence in the Amiga's destiny, as they are not a distinguishing feature of the Amiga, or only as a consequence of other factors, which as far as I'm concerned were and would still be a reason to buy an Amiga.
Fair enough. I was just remembering a rant that CU Amiga Magazine had in it`s last issue. It was basically blaming A500 owners who didn`t upgrade as the cause of Amiga development stopping. I would agree with that statement.
It was the users fault, by sticking with the A500, software developers would generally target 1985 technology... But the big problem was Commodore using the same Technology from the first to the last Amiga... Had C= locked into a 6month product cycle (though very ambitious for the early 90s) then things would have been better...
-
@Tension
I was just remembering a rant that CU Amiga Magazine had in it`s last issue. It was basically blaming A500 owners who didn`t upgrade as the cause of Amiga development stopping. I would agree with that statement.
As I said, this phenomenon was true for any computer owner, not only the Amiga owner. But the Amiga owner had no reason to upgrade, because even until Commodore's end in 1994 most Amiga games were designed for a 1986 setup, whereas most PC games were designed for recent setups. Journalists - especially video games journalists - are to blame here, as most of them were simply ignoring the Amiga except the popular basic models and setups (500, 600, 1200, CDTV and CD32), and some even complained when a game was programmed for a high-end Amiga. As a result, the public thought that the Amiga was only an old machine and games had to be programmed for the same basic models in order to sell. Death was the only possible end.
I suppose that CU Amiga and other Amiga-specific magazines showed a different behaviour, and their readers were already Amiga owners, which in addition were most probably not only interested in games but other software that needed more powerful Amiga setups.
@bloodline
It was the users fault, by sticking with the A500, software developers would generally target 1985 technology...
See answer above.
But the big problem was Commodore using the same Technology from the first to the last Amiga... Had C= locked into a 6month product cycle (though very ambitious for the early 90s) then things would have been better...
I answered a similar post from you in another thread. Commodore's slowness was primarily a natural consequence of this journalism phenomenon : seeing that the press was only interested in recent PC and Mac models but old basic Amiga models, all Commodore had to do in the end is making IBM compatible systems or trying to retrain as low-cost game consoles manufacturer...
-
Actually can be designed a very capable mainboard
maintaining some Amiga standards to make this "new"
system a continuation from the Classical Amiga, and
add to this new platform enough pieces of "oldskool"
hardware to make it retro-compatible via some
kind of easy emulation. We can't just think about
running old programs, we need to move on, it's futile
to buy a new comp in order to run old software, when
you can still get some "originals" just go for a classic
second hand Amiga, or be a bit more ambitious...
Evolve or die. That's a rule.
That's what i think. That retro-policy made Amiga to
be stuck for a decade without 3D capabilities, same
machine formats, low clock rates and small memory amounts.
We lost the battle and we can't think on being in the
past if we want to survive.
Classic Amiga can't die, can be emulated properly if we
add key hardware to NEW and MODERN systems.
So if you only want to run old programs buy some
A500 or evolve and open your eyes to a new Amiga
standard that will still be able to run oldskool
via emulation.
Greetings
-
@DyLucke
Actually can be designed a very capable mainboard
maintaining some Amiga standards to make this "new"
system a continuation from the Classical Amiga, and
add to this new platform enough pieces of "oldskool"
hardware to make it retro-compatible via some
kind of easy emulation.
I agree with you, but to my knowledge such a system doesn't exist yet, and as far as I'm concerned I still haven't managed to obtain normal animation in emulators (but I'm still working on it).
We can't just think about
running old programs, we need to move on
Evolve or die. That's a rule.
We lost the battle and we can't think on being in the
past if we want to survive.
evolve and open your eyes
As a result, if buying a Minimig is being stuck in the past, then using any Amiga is being stuck in the past as well, and _you_ are stuck in the past. My purpose is opposite : I'm not running "old programs", but some titles that I love and see as timeless works of art. You would be stuck in time by letting them disappear.
it's futile
to buy a new comp in order to run old software, when
you can still get some "originals" just go for a classic
second hand Amiga
Old second-hand computers stand a good chance of breaking within the next years, unlike a new machine like the Minimig. Since I am no good at all with my hands, it is an important difference.
or be a bit more ambitious...
You are talking to yourself.
That retro-policy made Amiga to
be stuck for a decade without 3D capabilities
3D graphics is not progress : it's just a different technique of expression. There's nothing "retro" about the Amiga or 2D in themselves. Only people are retrograde.
same machine formats
What do you mean ?
low clock rates and small memory amounts
Were you a journalist at the time ? ;-)
Classic Amiga can't die, can be emulated properly if we
add key hardware to NEW and MODERN systems.
I am looking forward to such a solution.
-
Easy, get a Classic computer for our little pieces of art,
and get a new board that means improvement to use new
software and new capabilities.
What i said about adding "key hardware" to the new systems
afaik has not been implemented in any new Amiga computer.
But as you can know UAE does fairly good on PC's, just
figure what could be emulated if you add some custom
oldskool chips on a new Amiga computer. (Emulation would
be way easier, way efficient for only a bunch of $ more)
That's what i mean.
Actual Amiga manufacturers that are able to design a
"minimig" that is not an "improvement" by itself but
an old computer in a new shape, could add the
imprescindible hardware used on that minimig to our
new mainboards to add some "oldskool emulation mode",
with a really effective result.
But noone decided to do that.
As a resume, i would not buy a minimig, i would buy an
Efika or a Sam440ep instead a minimig, and keep at the same
time my old A1200 till the moment some of these platforms
reach the point of having an efficient backards emulation
using software or maybe using some part of hardware
either in future models.
Nope i was not a journalist at that time but i was
an Amiga user who expanded his 1200 as much as i was able,
and the result of every improvement effort Phase5 or other
great companies also was "New oudtated hardware".
Why? Our Viper accelerators could not compete with
PC's in performance due the loooooooooooow clock rate
of our A1200 and A4000 mainboards... 14mhz. And if
you were able and lucky enough and rich enough to
afford an A4000 with some 3D card like the
"awesome" "Cybervision 64 3D" you got a really
expensive sollution using an S3 Virge chip, while
PC's were using GPU's even ten times faster...
Even my Playstation was more efficient than that
and costed a fraction of what my Amiga costed.
That's what happens when new hardware gets stuck
by using a platform designed with standards
from 15 years ago, Commodore got stuck with
that retrocompatibility, so third party manufacturers
were not able to improve the system by themselves.
ACube should not lose its time on designing a minimig
but think about HOW to implement a decent emulation
and reduce costs on the NEW boards.
:-)
Greetings
-
As I remember it most A500 owners (myself included) were unwilling to upgrade because:
1. The majority of games were poorly coded and would only run on bog standard A500/A1000/A2000.
2. High end/expanded Amiga's still had very poor printer output compared to the PC.
3. High end Amiga's cost an arm and a leg - but still lagged behind the PC in most (all?) business applications.
4.Expansions and peripherals also cost an arm and a leg. Since only ray tracing software and the like could take real advantage of the added harware it seemed like a lot of wasted money to the average user.
5. PC's were becoming much cheaper, powerful and better supported.
However, none of this actually stopped me from upgrading to an A1200 with, 256Mb HD, M-Tech 1230, 8Mb ram, etc, etc.
-
arkpandora wrote:
1. Can you confirm that the scan-doubled signal is digital
The scan doubling is 100% in the digital domain.
arkpandora wrote:
2. Can you confirm that you need a 50 Hz monitor ?
With the current official version of MiniMig core you DO need a 50Hz capable monitor. There is an illegal release (he didn't release the source) by a guy called Yaqube who hacked in a quick change for unofficial 50->60Hz conversion, it's not great but it allows you to use an LCD monitor. Yaqube is preparing a better versions (hopefully with source this time).
arkpandora wrote:
3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?
No
arkpandora wrote:
4. Is it worth waiting for a possible update of the Minimig before buying one ?
If you wait too long, you find yourself unable to buy the populated MiniMig boards.
-
@arkpandora
As alexh says, just buy one, you won't regret it, it's good fun, it's new and it has many advantages and modern features over your old A500.
Oh and don't forget to buy my case for it:
http://www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/preview.htm
so you'll have a brand, shiny new system (which can be other systems too remember).
:-)
-
1) Identical to the Amiga signal, even better as it uses Amber the VGA chip in the FPGA.
2) You need a 50hz monitor but I downloaded the 60hz core and it works. Be advised that 60hz core gives you a NTSC minimig so you're subject to all the icompatiblities of a gohz machine. 50hz is more compatible with the ABANDONWARE offerings out there. 60hz is easier to work with as it's much easier to source a 60hz monitor (epsicially in the usa)
3) Check the compatibility lists for games, there's one bug that comes up repeatedly in popular team 17 games, the main sprite is invisible in Superfrog and Super startdust...2 of my favorite games.
4) Minimig is a huge milestone in the Amiga history. It is a shot across the bow of retro computing and gaming IP squaters everywhere. If you want to support projects like this and have the disposable income, or are a coder that will develop for it then by all means buy it.
I've been told with todays technology an AGA MiniMig is possibl for almost the same cost... especially if it were to be mass produced. Ideally I'd like an A1200 class MiniMig or better. Don't be surprised if the next version of a project like this has 040 speeds, graphics card, and HDF support built in. For now Minimg is kicking ass!
arkpandora wrote:
Hi,
I am considering buying a Minimig, but as I am not a specialist I would like to ask you Minimig users/specialists some questions/confirmations.
1. Can you confirm that the scan-doubled signal is digital, in other words that especially animation quality is identical to the one of an Amiga with a CRT video monitor or an Amiga through a Picasso IV's scan-doubler for example, and not the ugly animation quality I get with LCD TV/monitors scan-doubling analog Amiga input ?
2. Can you confirm that you need a 50 Hz monitor ?
3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?
4. Is it worth waiting for a possible update of the Minimig before buying one ?
Thank you for any help !
-
2) Confirmed.
3) DMA Bugs, Floppy controller bugs.
4) I'll wait a month, I'll wait a month, I'll wait a month, I'll wait a month. Product is so old, its not supported by the time you get one.
-
Crom00 wrote:
1) Identical to the Amiga signal, even better as it uses Amber the VGA chip in the FPGA.
It doesn't really use Amber. Minimig has it's own equivalent (also called Amber) but is unlikely to work exactly like the real Amber chip did.
Crom00 wrote:
I downloaded the 60hz core and it works. Be advised that 60hz core gives you a NTSC minimig
In reality I dont think Yaqube's 60Hz mod really makes an NTSC minimig. It cannot because to do so you would have to change the main MiniMig crystal (which is by default a PAL crystal). It's just a hack.
Crom00 wrote:
so you're subject to all the in compatiblities of a 60hz machine. 50hz is more compatible with the STOLEN SOFTWARE offerings out there.
It is probably much worse. Yaqube's hacks, combined with MiniMig's original bugs combined with some of the traditional NTSC Amiga incompatibility :-(
Crom00 wrote:
I've been told with todays technology an AGA MiniMig is possibly for almost the same cost...
Not true. There are no 3.3v 020 chips for example.
-
Thanks for the corrections, I'm not a tech. As far as the AGA Minimig, it wouldn't be built the same way, so it couldn't be called a MiniMIG. A system based around an FPGA with a software 020 or somekind of emulation using a faster CPU. The bottom line, from what I was told it's possible. Is it likely? well that's another story, certainly nor through any offical release.
-
The MiniMig costs almost nothing to make in volumes. All the R&D is done, you just find sources of the chips and a place in china to make em and churn em out. I don't think you realise what kind of markup there is on ready made MiniMig's. I think Acube probably made their money back (which is always a good thing).
While you could make an FPGA devkit with enough capacity for AGA + 020 (although no-one knows how much that would be for sure) for about the same price as todays retail MiniMig, you'd have to mark it up considerably to make viable profit.
I used to be disgusted with the markup on the MiniMig's, but once you actually look into all the costs which go with officially retailing an electronics product within Europe then you gain a lot of respect. It's not like they could just make them, flog em and split the profits down the pub. There is quite a bit of expensive red tape once you go legit.
-
alexh wrote:
In reality I dont think Yaqube's 60Hz mod really makes an NTSC minimig. It cannot because to do so you would have to change the main MiniMig crystal (which is by default a PAL crystal). It's just a hack.
You're right, it doesn't. I've used it and I've run PAL software with no "clipping" of the screen like a real NTSC Amiga does.
It is probably much worse. Yaqube's hacks, combined with MiniMig's original bugs combined with some of the traditional NTSC Amiga incompatibility :-(
No be perfectly honest, I tested a hell of a lot of software with Dennis' 50Hz core and then with Yaqube's 60Hz core and found no games that would work on one but not the other.
Unfortunately I only received my updated PIC from Amikit a few days before I had to return to work in Brazil and I haven't had a chance to test Dennis' latest core to see if any of the failed games will work.
I'm also looking forward to Yaqube's new core with ADF write support for more testing.
-
AlexH I was looking to produce a run of Minimgs the instant the BOM was released I got quotes of $85 first cost per board with a power supply, White box and A5 double sided instruction sheet in quantities of 100 units.
Rohs was like $10 more if I remember correctly.
The markups are justifiable...
-
Do you mean that to produce a Minimig is $100?
I now know first hand what it means developing and producing a new product for a market like the Amiga's.
-
TheDaddy wrote:
Do you mean that to produce a Minimig is $100?
It depends how many they made and where. Probably a little less.
The design of the MiniMig 1.1 and the chips it uses unfortunately makes the design overly expensive.
With a small re-work the BOM would come down even more.
-
Thank you everybody for your answers.
I see two different Minimig software compatibility lists :
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility
http://www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/what_works.htm
Wouldn't it be a good idea to merge them ?
@DyLucke
Easy, get a Classic computer for our little pieces of art,
and get a new board that means improvement to use new
software and new capabilities.
As I said, reliability is the key for me, so that a Minimig suits me better than anything else I know as long as the software works on it.
But as you can know UAE does fairly good on PC's, just
figure what could be emulated if you add some custom
oldskool chips on a new Amiga computer. (Emulation would
be way easier, way efficient for only a bunch of $ more)
That's what i mean.
Actual Amiga manufacturers that are able to design a
"minimig" that is not an "improvement" by itself but
an old computer in a new shape, could add the
imprescindible hardware used on that minimig to our
new mainboards to add some "oldskool emulation mode",
with a really effective result.
But noone decided to do that.
Yes, and adding real custom chips to emulation could solve my animation problem that I mentioned in my previous post.
As a resume, i would not buy a minimig, i would buy an
Efika or a Sam440ep instead a minimig, and keep at the same
time my old A1200 till the moment some of these platforms
reach the point of having an efficient backards emulation
using software or maybe using some part of hardware
either in future models.
I still haven't found the time to learn what the Efika and Sam440ep are.
the result of every improvement effort Phase5 or other
great companies also was "New oudtated hardware".
Why? Our Viper accelerators could not compete with
PC's in performance due the loooooooooooow clock rate
of our A1200 and A4000 mainboards... 14mhz. And if
you were able and lucky enough and rich enough to
afford an A4000 with some 3D card like the
"awesome" "Cybervision 64 3D" you got a really
expensive sollution using an S3 Virge chip, while
PC's were using GPU's even ten times faster...
Even my Playstation was more efficient than that
and costed a fraction of what my Amiga costed.
Of course, but you are talking about the 90s : at that time the harm was already done by the press, which on the contrary and most of the time _wanted_ the Amiga hardware to be old and slow and the software to be programmed for those setups (just open any video game magazine of that time), and the technology factor you describe cannot be considered as the primary factor of the Amiga's destiny - it's just a normal consequence of public perception. And the high prices were just a normal consequence of this low demand.
That's what happens when new hardware gets stuck
by using a platform designed with standards
from 15 years ago, Commodore got stuck with
that retrocompatibility, so third party manufacturers
were not able to improve the system by themselves.
Retrocompatibility was important, and wasn't a problem at all in the IBM-PC world, so I don't think it is a significant factor either. Since general public press refused to know the existence of the Amiga 2000 then 3000 and 4000, because of complex psychological factors, the public has ignored them as well, and the Amiga was already condemned to commercial then development death at the time the 500 and 2000 were released. Since graphic or processor cards were equally ignored by the press hence the public anyway, I suppose that Commodore concluded that improving the system and joining forces with third-party manufacturers would not help the sales.
@DrDekker
As I remember it most A500 owners (myself included) were unwilling to upgrade because:
1. The majority of games were poorly coded and would only run on bog standard A500/A1000/A2000.
I agree, and I think I can demonstrate that it is the only consequence of bad journalism.
2. High end/expanded Amiga's still had very poor printer output compared to the PC.
To my knowledge the Mac had similar problems, but survived.
3. High end Amiga's cost an arm and a leg - but still lagged behind the PC in most (all?) business applications.
4.Expansions and peripherals also cost an arm and a leg. Since only ray tracing software and the like could take real advantage of the added harware it seemed like a lot of wasted money to the average user.
That is only a secondary factor, since price is the consequence of poor sales, which in turn are a consequence of public and press perception. In the 80s, 386 PCs had a worse quality-price ratio than a 68030 A2000, if I remember well.
5. PC's were becoming much cheaper, powerful and better supported.
This is a corollary.
@alexh
Thank you for your help !
arkpandora wrote:
3. Can I expect some games/demos to work perfectly although some others don't work at all, in other words can you confirm that what prevents some games/demos from working doesn't harm others in any way ?
No
Well, the idea of buying a Minimig is not very exctiting anymore then, as I need it to run at least some games perfectly. I think I will rely on others' experience.
STOLEN SOFTWARE
Who has edited ? If this "stolen" means "copied although copyrighted", it must be noted that discontinued software on perishable magnetic media has to be copied in order to be used, and in order to be preserved if it has cultural/artistic value. Any copyright is wrong preventing this, unless the authors/artists themselves expressly want their work to disappear (even this may be discussed when it comes to a masterpiece).
@TheDaddy
Thank you for your advices. If I buy a Minimig I won't miss your case.
-
An ongoing issue with Amiga, since its inception back in the 80s was an unclear upgrade path. On top of that upgrade options (expansion cards in particular) were very pricey and seemingly aimed at some "professional market" (whatever that was back in the day.
At the same time, PC platform was becoming less expensive and migration path was very clear: you got yourself an IBM AT, you added some memory, Windows 3.1, some well-supported software and you could use it for pretty much anything you wanted without sinking a lot of money into each individual upgrade option. You could easily figure out what type of RAM your motherboard needed. You could easily add a hard drive to a PC. For A500, you had to spend $1500 for that GVP paperweight with a hard drive inside. In those days, you could get a very nice IBM AT for $1500 *with a hard drive*. I do not remember the price for Amiga's XT/AT emulator cards, but I remember that they were not worth the money at the time. This is why I ended up with an IBM AT and Amiga collecting dust. A3000 and A4000 were, IMHO, vastly overpriced when they were released. Consider that Commodore was never considered to be an avantgarde (as Apple for example) and this is again a marketing/perception issue.
Even today, as I am piecing together my Amiga collection, my head is "spinning" sometimes from all the upgrade options, their specs, differences and, above all, prices. PPC cards in particular were a disaster - in marketing, pricing and distribution.
Anyone blaming the Amiga users for Amiga's demise on the market is barking up a wrong tree. As with many other machines and technologies, wide acceptance, pricing and clear upgrade path can spell success or a disaster within a few years.
Amiga's current situation (lawsuit, no hardware) is just a continuation of the "market strategy" started back in the 80s: we are the best and you cannot do anything to us. As it played out, Amiga has slipped away because of that attitude and a much more inferior platform prospered (PC) because it was affordable, versatile and had much better software support (this also falls into "versatility" category).
PC platform also had an advantage of a broad hardware support from many vendors (not just IBM). This was very important for a teenager (or a home user in general) with a limited budget. Back in those days, IBM AT was priced 2-3 times the price of an equally well-equipped clone.
High-end Amigas were just as expensive as Macs and targeted a very limited niche at the time (video professionals and gamers).
There are many lessons in Amiga's demise and none of them seems to have been learned by Powers to Be who own the Amiga, in name, trademark or copyright.
Minimig seems to be a viable option, but it is still unclear to me what would I do with the board if I ordered it. It does not seem to be a complete machine. Maybe it is, but does not look like a complete machine.
-
Hi,
An ongoing issue with Amiga, since its inception back in the 80s was an unclear upgrade path.
At the same time, PC platform was becoming less expensive and migration path was very clear: you got yourself an IBM AT, you added some memory, Windows 3.1, some well-supported software and you could use it for pretty much anything you wanted without sinking a lot of money into each individual upgrade option. You could easily figure out what type of RAM your motherboard needed.
On the hardware side, was upgrading an A2000 more unclear a path than upgrading a PC ? To my knowledge, anybody able to upgrade a PC by himself was able to upgrade an A2000, and the others just untrusted the upgrade to their computer dealer. On the software side, as A.org member Bloodline said in another thread, the drivers were sometimes weak or buggy. But any hardware manufacturer knows that hardware is useless without an efficient driver : only poor sales can explain such a weakness. So to my knowledge the "upgrade path" cannot be a first cause of the Amiga's demise.
On top of that upgrade options (expansion cards in particular) were very pricey and seemingly aimed at some "professional market" (whatever that was back in the day.
At the same time, PC platform was becoming less expensive
Price too cannot be considered independently of sales volume. Anyway a 68030 A2000 had not a worse quality-price ratio than a 386 PC if I remember well, and at the same time the PC was aimed at "professional markets" even more than the Amiga.
You could easily add a hard drive to a PC. For A500, you had to spend $1500 for that GVP paperweight with a hard drive inside. In those days, you could get a very nice IBM AT for $1500 *with a hard drive*.
To my knowledge, adding a hard drive to an A500 was easier than adding a hard drive to a portable/laptop PC of the same time. A desktop PC of the 80s should be compared to an A2000, not an A500.
A3000 and A4000 were, IMHO, vastly overpriced when they were released.
I agree with you, but the later the period the more important the sales factor.
Consider that Commodore was never considered to be an avantgarde (as Apple for example)
Really ?
and this is again a marketing/perception issue
This is the problem. As far as Commodore is concerned marketing was public perception. And public perception was journalism. Journalism should have been information : instead it was public perception, thus creating a spiral of commonplace. Since commonplace was and still is "bigger is better" as well as "smaller must be eliminated", any computer manufacturer that dares to offer small computers with built-in keyboard but no screen is only a "console" manufacturer, in other words is not interesting and must be eliminated. Every generic computer magazine I have read is a clear illustration of this process. Apple survived mainly (only ?) because they had no such keyboard-computers along with their desktop computers.
Even today, as I am piecing together my Amiga collection, my head is "spinning" sometimes from all the upgrade options, their specs, differences and, above all, prices.
Wasn't the infinite IBM-compatible PC hardware a source of head-spinning ?
PPC cards in particular were a disaster - in marketing, pricing and distribution.
PPC was the end of the Amiga, so its "marketing, pricing and distribution" cannot be anything of an early factor : it was a foreseeable consequence.
Anyone blaming the Amiga users for Amiga's demise on the market is barking up a wrong tree.
As far as technology is concerned, most people buy what they want or are told to buy, so even the best product may not survive if image and word of mouth are the only rule : information is the key of objectivity, so journalists were the key of the Amiga's destiny.
Amiga's current situation (lawsuit, no hardware) is just a continuation of the "market strategy" started back in the 80s: we are the best and you cannot do anything to us.
In the 80s there was hardware, and general public doesn't care about what is behind the product.
As with many other machines and technologies, wide acceptance, pricing and clear upgrade path can spell success or a disaster within a few years.
Amiga has slipped away because of that attitude and a much more inferior platform prospered (PC) because it was affordable, versatile and had much better software support (this also falls into "versatility" category).
In conclusion, again I think that these factors are mainly consequences of a primary factor.
There are many lessons in Amiga's demise and none of them seems to have been learned by Powers to Be who own the Amiga, in name, trademark or otherwise.
I don't know anything about what are and do those "Powers to Be who own the Amiga" nowadays, so I can't express any view about it.