Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: AmiBoy on June 24, 2008, 08:05:39 PM
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For anyone who is interested in the NatAmi (like me) Gunnar has released an early draft on the 68070 processor they are hoping to implement in the model after the 060 equipmed Dev Board.
I dont really undrerstand any of it but I thought some of the more technical minded people on here might want to take a look!
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=642
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AmiBoy wrote:
For anyone who is interested in the NatAmi (like me) Gunnar has released an early draft on the 68070 processor they are hoping to implement in the model after the 060 equipmed Dev Board.
I dont really undrerstand any of it but I thought some of the more technical minded people on here might want to take a look!
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=642
Hmmm, Somewhat ambitious and there seems to be a few flaws in the ideas... Not much detail about branches... does he even know modern branch prediction theory?
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I'd suggest a different name to avoid confusion with this thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68070).
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The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.
Err...
The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.
And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...
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I like their enthusiasm but I much prefer the simplicity of using an existing and known working cpu like the 68060.
Still this isn't a thread about what I like :-D
So, and I've been reading Gunnars post on the Natami forum, they've decided that in the future they'd like to make a 68070. It'd be better off being called a 68080 since it sounds more like they want to implement a 68060 and then take it further but that another aside.
Perhaps a good approach to this would be to take the tg68k and try adding features such as pipelining to it's design. it's integrated with an existing platform and behaviour can be compared against an unmodifed version to illuminate compatibility issues.
Ok so it'd still be a 16bit 68k core but it'd give the designer some experience at doing the work.
Andy
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@ Matt
good Idea..........maybe they should call it the 68080!
:-D :-P
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Zac67 wrote:
And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...
IBM's Power6 is available at speeds of up to 4.7 GHz.
Is that close enough?
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Power6 at TheRegister (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/07/ibm_power6_show/) - IBM Power6 at 5GHz
... now if only they'd actually ship 'em :-D
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Zac67 wrote:
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.
Err...
The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.
And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...
Also I would note that x86 with it's limited addressing modes are easier to "decode" RISC than the 68k could ever be... the whole idea seems riddled with very immature ideas...
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mongo wrote:
Zac67 wrote:
And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...
IBM's Power6 is available at speeds of up to 4.7 GHz.
Is that close enough?
Available from where? Anyway the ALU of the Penitum4 was actually "Doubled Pumped", and that small part of the CPU was actually running at twice the Main Clock speed... so that part of the chip ran past 6Ghz!!!
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Yes, Motorola also left the 'classic' 68k track for the Coldfire way - they had their reasons.
Actually I miss the point of recreating a completely new (?) RISC core to have it run/emulate/whatever 68k code.
There are lots of low cost, high speed available CPUs (well, most of em x86), why not use on of them? While you're at it, add one of the off-the-shelf mobos that don't cost a fortune and are wickedly fast. Obviously you end up where Amithlon started - so I'd rather see a PCIe (or PCI if need be) board sporting an original AGA chipset or a nice vamped up Minimig/Natami/... chipset to get 100% compatibility. Most work (UAE) is already done.
The other option is porting the OS to x86 (AROS) and adding an emulation layer for compatibility (this will hopefully been done soon).
I really appreciate the effort of these guys, but I'm afraid they're running in the wrong direction...
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um... not to spoil the fun, but how about a (lets call it) 68k2duo, consisting of an Intel Core2Duo at 2.6Ghz with a 68k emulator ?
not !! joking.... stick uae (or winuae) into a usb stick. add mainstream intel board/cpu ....
as I said before.. I enjoy my A2000/060 as it is fun and makes me young again, but come on people, unless you make a 'new' Amiga OS run on x86 forget it ! (just finish aros and then add some 1000 features it is currently lacking... ok ?)
ta
Tom UK
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Well because the two aren't equivalent.
#1 is taking a 68k CISC instruction which can (but doesn't have to) involve several steps to accomplish and breaks it down into those discrete steps. Those are then fed through a RISC core which has been specifically designed to handle the aforementioned discretised 68k instructions.
PROs:
Its how modern x86 cores work.
You can apply lots of fancy things to that simple RISC68k core at it's heart.
To the outside world it looks _exactly_ like a really flipping quick 68k cpu complete with addressing, instruction, bus design. The whole lot, it could be a drop in replacement for a real 68k chip
CONs: hard to do, CISC->RISC decoder takes up transistors and space, decoder extends pipeline causing branch prediction penalties to increase etc etc etc
#2 is completely different. An x86 is just a completely alien device, it has a different endianess, it's buses are different so the way it communicates is different. I wouldn't even know where to begin. Not only that but the instructions that it actually processes are different so it can't even take the 68k instruction and do anything with them. x86 emulators work because they pretend to be the entire machine including the ram where the executable resides.
Attempting to attach an x86 cpu onto a 68k bus is like trying to get a tortoise to go faster by strapping an angry wolverine to it :lol:
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Zac67 wrote:
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.
Err...
The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.
He's trying to say that it is a microcoded processor. That is each CISC instruction is in fact a mini program running on a much simpler faster core.
I tried to give some positive feedback, but it is just showing the gulf between his ambitions and his capabilities.
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put uae os3.1 rom etc into a pc bios :-D
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alexh wrote:
Zac67 wrote:
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.
Err...
The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.
He's trying to say that it is a microcoded processor. That is each CISC instruction is in fact a mini program running on a much simpler faster core.
I tried to give some positive feedback, but it is just showing the gulf between his ambitions and his capabilities.
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
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KThunder wrote:
put uae os3.1 rom etc into a pc bios :-D
my point exactly (and add uae with a suited linux)
ta
Tom UK
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Hmmm... I've not got to read about that 68070 thing but... I did read about the fact that Freescale seems to offer custom-made processor solutions where the buyer specifies the functions he / she wants to see added over the standard feature-set. As I understood it, you could take a 'standard' Coldfire processor and ask for adding instructions, say... the missing instructions that were available on the 68060 creating a more compatible Coldfire processor. And while you're at it, why not throw in some extra features that could make your special system just that little quicker ;-).
But then.. I could be wrong :-S.
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bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
I think a bog standard 68000 would run on the fastest FPGA's we have today somewhere close to the 100MHz rate... but they are not cheap FPGA's and once you start adding all the complex stuff the speed will nosedive.
I struggle to get 75MHz for ARM7 TDMI designs using FPGA chips that cost $1000's
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AmiBoy wrote:
For anyone who is interested in the NatAmi (like me) Gunnar has released an early draft on the 68070 processor they are hoping to implement in the model after the 060 equipmed Dev Board.
I dont really undrerstand any of it but I thought some of the more technical minded people on here might want to take a look!
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=642
We'll just have to wait and see. Whether or not if it lives up to all the hype, it's going to be really cool, and it's going to exceed the 060.
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koaftder wrote:
it's going to be really cool, and it's going to exceed the 060.
In numerical numbering at least ;-)
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alexh wrote:
koaftder wrote:
it's going to be really cool, and it's going to exceed the 060.
In numerical numbering at least ;-)
And in quantity, after all you could have maybe more than 10 of these in existence :-D
Ah, I wish they'd just investigate the ColdFire further over this option. Or at least start from another base and try extending it rather than make sweeping statements about 200Mhz 070's being easily achievable etc.
An 060 and a real, working, purchasable(!) Natami that's all that anyone wants.
Well somehow persuading Freescale to make some more 060s so the price comes down a bit would be handy too but lets not go nuts now ;)
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Matt_H wrote:
I'd suggest a different name to avoid confusion with this thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68070).
Some people have been calling it the N68070. That should be enough to avoid confusion with the existing 68070.
Zac67 wrote:
Actually I miss the point of recreating a completely new (?) RISC core to have it run/emulate/whatever 68k code.
1. It's not emulation. FPGAs give you the chance to build the real thing.
2. The main reason behind the N68070 is to integrate it with SuperAGA into one chip, giving cost and speed benefits over a 68060.
Zac67 wrote:
There are lots of low cost, high speed available CPUs (well, most of em x86), why not use on of them? While you're at it, add one of the off-the-shelf mobos that don't cost a fortune and are wickedly fast. Obviously you end up where Amithlon started - so I'd rather see a PCIe (or PCI if need be) board sporting an original AGA chipset or a nice vamped up Minimig/Natami/... chipset to get 100% compatibility. Most work (UAE) is already done.
How many f**king times have I got to answer this question. The NatAmi is called such because it is a NATive AMIga. You can have your emulation fun elsewhere, myself (and many others) want beefed up classic hardware, that's what the NatAmi offers. No x86, PPC, ARM, etc... or at least not as the main CPU.
Nostalgiac wrote:
as I said before.. I enjoy my A2000/060 as it is fun and makes me young again, but come on people, unless you make a 'new' Amiga OS run on x86 forget it ! (just finish aros and then add some 1000 features it is currently lacking... ok ?)
Then run AROS and leave the NatAmi to the people who want it... ok?
alexh wrote:
I tried to give some positive feedback, but it is just showing the gulf between his ambitions and his capabilities.
The document is just a rough draft, a sketch of where they'd like to go. If you can help them with technical suggestions (as you did on the EAB thread) then that is the positive feedback you are looking for in vain.
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?
amiga_3k wrote:
Hmmm... I've not got to read about that 68070 thing but... I did read about the fact that Freescale seems to offer custom-made processor solutions where the buyer specifies the functions he / she wants to see added over the standard feature-set. As I understood it, you could take a 'standard' Coldfire processor and ask for adding instructions, say... the missing instructions that were available on the 68060 creating a more compatible Coldfire processor. And while you're at it, why not throw in some extra features that could make your special system just that little quicker ;-).
But then.. I could be wrong :-S.
amiga_3k, it's a decent idea, but AFAIK Freescale don't let you modify the Coldfire core, but just build functions around it, so the issues with certain processor functions would still exist.
@all
As I've mentioned, the document is a rough draft. The Natami60 will be released without the N68070, there is plenty of time for discussion about how best to construct the N68070 without interfering with the Natami60 release. If you want to see the N68070 be the best CPU it can be and you have some 68k ASM knowledge then share your ideas with the Natami team.
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HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?
Absolutely no way anyone could ever raise the money to build a 68K ASIC... it would be quite a big and complex chip... There isn't any magic that can turn VHDL into an ASIC... you still need chip designers to load the HDL code into their software and work it into a functional chip...
This is big money...
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Zac67 wrote:
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.
Err...
The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.
And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...
Err...
Wrong. The 68040 and 68060 convert CISC instructions to RISC for their internal core in a similar fashion to the way that the x86 does. Externally, it looks like a CISC processor. Coldfire has been called a "variable-length-risc" processor because they made changes to the instruction set that put it more in-line with RISC architectures (i.e. they don't need the CISC to RISC conversion).
Hans
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@ alexh
How's this for my own theory. Dual Coldfire setup. CFv4/266 to start. It's primary job, to run the JIT for backward code compatability. The JIT feeds the second CPU ( CFv2/83 or perhaps another CFv4 @90-100mhz) that takes the place of the 68K.
I've made this suggestion before, but it didn't get much milage.
Plaz
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HenryCase wrote:
Zac67 wrote:
There are lots of low cost, high speed available CPUs (well, most of em x86), why not use on of them? While you're at it, add one of the off-the-shelf mobos that don't cost a fortune and are wickedly fast. Obviously you end up where Amithlon started - so I'd rather see a PCIe (or PCI if need be) board sporting an original AGA chipset or a nice vamped up Minimig/Natami/... chipset to get 100% compatibility. Most work (UAE) is already done.
How many f**king times have I got to answer this question. The NatAmi is called such because it is a NATive AMIga. You can have your emulation fun elsewhere, myself (and many others) want beefed up classic hardware, that's what the NatAmi offers. No x86, PPC, ARM, etc... or at least not as the main CPU.
Ok, I have a question... As you will note that Jens at the Breakpoint07 stated... "The Amiga was essentially unchanged for 8 years, If you change anything about the hardware, you create incompatibilities, basically you make a new platform... Why create a new platform... Just buy a Cheap PC?"... While I can see the value in projects like MiniMIG and CloneA, I'm not really sure what NATAMI is really trying to do...
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Plaz wrote:
@ alexh
How's this for my own theory. Dual Coldfire setup. CFv4/266 to start. It's primary job, to run the JIT for backward code compatability. The JIT feeds the second CPU ( CFv2 or perhaps another CFv4 @90-100mhz) that takes the place of the 68K.
I've made this suggestion before, but it didn't get much milage.
Plaz
Probably because your idea defeats the point of a JIT...
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bloodline wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?
Absolutely no way anyone could ever raise the money to build a 68K ASIC... it would be quite a big and complex chip... There isn't any magic that can turn VHDL into an ASIC... you still need chip designers to load the HDL code into their software and work it into a functional chip...
This is big money...
Read what I said. I did not say 'ASIC' I said 'structured ASIC'. The Altera HardCopy II may give enough power for a 200MHz 68k family CPU, and costs a fraction of a standard ASIC.
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Hans_ wrote:
Zac67 wrote:
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.
Err...
The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.
And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...
Err...
Wrong. The 68040 and 68060 convert CISC instructions to RISC for their internal core in a similar fashion to the way that the x86 does. Externally, it looks like a CISC processor. Coldfire has been called a "variable-length-risc" processor because they made changes to the instruction set that put it more in-line with RISC architectures (i.e. they don't need the CISC to RISC conversion).
Hans
Zac67 is right... The 060 had two pipelines (Forgive some errors as I'm working from 10 year old memories here), one could only execute the simpler 68K instructions the other could run all of them (and it also had an FP pipe, but the 040 had that too). That way you could get some instruction overlap.
It's not really RISC in the MPIS/SPARC sense, but it borrows a lot of ideas from the RISC research... Coldfire is 68k RISCed...
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@bloodline
Probably because your idea defeats the point of a JIT...
How so? Just because the function is on a second core? How would a dual or quad core handle JIT?
Plaz
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Plaz wrote:
I've made this suggestion before, but it didn't get much milage.
The coldfire appears to be useless for native Amiga. At least at its current power/config.
If it wasn't, we'd have the Elbox Dragon by now.
From what I've read, they couldn't solve the compatibility problems to anywhere within the speed of an 060 and so decided it was a non-starter.
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Plaz wrote:
@bloodline
Probably because your idea defeats the point of a JIT...
How so? Just because the function is on a second core? How would a dual or quad core handle JIT?
Plaz
The JIT executes only once per code block (in theory)... Thus why waste an entire second CPU for a task that only occurs relatively infrequently during the life of a program? For example, would you have a CPU and a second CPU for handling Serial port or simply have interrupts on the first CPU to handle the Serial port... it's much cheaper to use interrupts!
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HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?
Absolutely no way anyone could ever raise the money to build a 68K ASIC... it would be quite a big and complex chip... There isn't any magic that can turn VHDL into an ASIC... you still need chip designers to load the HDL code into their software and work it into a functional chip...
This is big money...
Read what I said. I did not say 'ASIC' I said 'structured ASIC'. The Altera HardCopy II may give enough power for a 200MHz 68k family CPU, and costs a fraction of a standard ASIC.
Ok, I've read up about Hardcopy, and it is a Fabing service... it's going to offer better performance than an FPGA... and be cheaper than a full blown ASIC... but it's still big money, money that no one has for some weird slow CPU with no software investment...
And my question about NATAMI?
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@ alexh
I imagined they were trying to do it all in one CPU, and that can only handle so much.
Plaz
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Plaz wrote:
@ alexh
I imagined they were trying to do it all in one CPU, and that can only handle so much.
Plaz
The advantage of the JIT over an interpreter is that it doesn't eat massive CPU resources and is well suited to single CPU systems.
The problem I expect is that, the coldfire doesn't actually map well to 68k code... The supervisor mode is totally different for a start... and missing addressing modes add lots of instructions to the translated code... I expect the best they could achieve with current coldfires is something like the 68060 (though one would hope more compatible)...
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@bloodline
The JIT executes only once per code block (in theory)...
In a perfect world, yes. But this is Amiga. :-) Trying to reproduce 100% compatibility with less than compatible hardware is going to be more costly than the original or custom part in mass. So yes, some cost might be wasted on a second CPU. However if the second CPU is relatively unused and over powered, you could either use a less expensive version, or use the extra horse power to drive peripherals like ethernet, DDR ram, USB.... of course this is all in theory. Unless we're going to port AOS to x86, fast AND cheap just isn't coming our way any time soon.
Plaz
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bloodline wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
Zac67 wrote:
There are lots of low cost, high speed available CPUs (well, most of em x86), why not use on of them? While you're at it, add one of the off-the-shelf mobos that don't cost a fortune and are wickedly fast. Obviously you end up where Amithlon started - so I'd rather see a PCIe (or PCI if need be) board sporting an original AGA chipset or a nice vamped up Minimig/Natami/... chipset to get 100% compatibility. Most work (UAE) is already done.
How many f**king times have I got to answer this question. The NatAmi is called such because it is a NATive AMIga. You can have your emulation fun elsewhere, myself (and many others) want beefed up classic hardware, that's what the NatAmi offers. No x86, PPC, ARM, etc... or at least not as the main CPU.
Ok, I have a question... As you will note that Jens at the Breakpoint07 stated... "The Amiga was essentially unchanged for 8 years, If you change anything about the hardware, you create incompatibilities, basically you make a new platform... Why create a new platform... Just buy a Cheap PC?"... While I can see the value in projects like MiniMIG and CloneA, I'm not really sure what NATAMI is really trying to do...
People want the Natami for different reasons, I can only speak about the reasons behind my liking of the Natami project.
One of the best things for me about the Amiga is its architecture. The custom chipsets (OCS/ECS/AGA) working in tandem with the CPU to create a more capable system overall. The PC platform has been moving towards providing the balance in resources we had with the Amiga, but progress on this seems slow (I hope GPGPU tech will take off). The Natami gives us an elegantly designed computer now, because it is based on the elegant design of the Amiga architecture.
Why is this elegance important? Well apart from giving better usage of resources, it is easier to understand from a programming perspective and therefore we should see a high percentage of well written programs on the Natami (less unnecessarily wasteful programs).
That's just from the technical point of view. On the geeky level what's hard about understanding the appeal of a classic Amiga capable of (most) modern computing demands without using any accelerators? That's cool in my book. :-D
I suppose I'm also excited about the Natami because I want to see something close to what the A5000 could have become, so I suppose there's closure reasons too. Of course we'll never know what the A5000 would have been, but the Natami lets us live out our A5000 dream anyway.
There are probably plenty of other reasons, that's just a list off the top of my head.
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@bloodline
and missing addressing modes add lots of instructions to the translated code
Yes, I did a lot of reading while part of the amiga coldfire project mailing list. That's where the dual theory began to start spining in my head as solutions to the less than adaquate supervisor mode.
P.S. Oh and don't forget Ami started out with serveral "co-processors" in the first place. (I know... that's stretching it)
Plaz
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Plaz wrote:
@bloodline
and missing addressing modes add lots of instructions to the translated code
Yes, I did a lot of reading while part of the amiga coldfire project mailing list. That were the dual theory began to start spining in my head as solutions to the less than adaquate supervisor mode.
P.S. Oh and don't forget Ami started out with serveral "co-processors" in the first place. (I know... that's stretching it)
Plaz
Naja... Two CPU's would be one way to solve the supervisor mode problem... But it's a VERY expensive solution that could be easily sorted out in Software... there are bigger problems... like just how suited the Coldfire actually is to running 68k code... and given the lack of Coldfire boards for the Amiga, I'd say not very...
The Amiga's Coprocessor design was Asymmetric, a specific chip for a specific task... You are suggesting a symmetric design, which is expensive for this...
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HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
Zac67 wrote:
There are lots of low cost, high speed available CPUs (well, most of em x86), why not use on of them? While you're at it, add one of the off-the-shelf mobos that don't cost a fortune and are wickedly fast. Obviously you end up where Amithlon started - so I'd rather see a PCIe (or PCI if need be) board sporting an original AGA chipset or a nice vamped up Minimig/Natami/... chipset to get 100% compatibility. Most work (UAE) is already done.
How many f**king times have I got to answer this question. The NatAmi is called such because it is a NATive AMIga. You can have your emulation fun elsewhere, myself (and many others) want beefed up classic hardware, that's what the NatAmi offers. No x86, PPC, ARM, etc... or at least not as the main CPU.
Ok, I have a question... As you will note that Jens at the Breakpoint07 stated... "The Amiga was essentially unchanged for 8 years, If you change anything about the hardware, you create incompatibilities, basically you make a new platform... Why create a new platform... Just buy a Cheap PC?"... While I can see the value in projects like MiniMIG and CloneA, I'm not really sure what NATAMI is really trying to do...
People want the Natami for different reasons, I can only speak about the reasons behind my liking of the Natami project.
One of the best things for me about the Amiga is its architecture. The custom chipsets (OCS/ECS/AGA) working in tandem with the CPU to create a more capable system overall. The PC platform has been moving towards providing the balance in resources we had with the Amiga, but progress on this seems slow (I hope GPGPU tech will take off). The Natami gives us an elegantly designed computer now, because it is based on the elegant design of the Amiga architecture.
Why is this elegance important? Well apart from giving better usage of resources, it is easier to understand from a programming perspective and therefore we should see a high percentage of well written programs on the Natami (less unnecessarily wasteful programs).
NATAMI is anything but elegant... the Amiga was an elegant solution to the computing problems of the mid 80's... Take any generic mainstream PC/Mac/whatever and it will be far more elegant a solution to the modern computing environment than an weird Amiga like kludge...
That's just from the technical point of view. On the geeky level what's hard about understanding the appeal of a classic Amiga capable of (most) modern computing demands without using any accelerators? That's cool in my book. :-D
I suppose I'm also excited about the Natami because I want to see something close to what the A5000 could have become, so I suppose there's closure reasons too. Of course we'll never know what the A5000 would have been, but the Natami lets us live out our A5000 dream anyway.
A5000 is a bit of a meaningless idea, But I do understand that it would have been nice to see what could have been... but as the great Dave Haynie has pointed out, The future of Amiga development would have moved to off the shelf parts... AAA was OK, in 93... but nothing but a joke by 97...
There are probably plenty of other reasons, that's just a list off the top of my head.
I honestly can't see any real advantage...
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bloodline wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?
Absolutely no way anyone could ever raise the money to build a 68K ASIC... it would be quite a big and complex chip... There isn't any magic that can turn VHDL into an ASIC... you still need chip designers to load the HDL code into their software and work it into a functional chip...
This is big money...
Read what I said. I did not say 'ASIC' I said 'structured ASIC'. The Altera HardCopy II may give enough power for a 200MHz 68k family CPU, and costs a fraction of a standard ASIC.
Ok, I've read up about Hardcopy, and it is a Fabing service... it's going to offer better performance than an FPGA... and be cheaper than a full blown ASIC... but it's still big money, money that no one has for some weird slow CPU with no software investment...
No software investment? That's why the Natami60 is being released first, to help build up the software base for the Natami.
As for structured ASIC cost, you may be right that even a structured ASIC may be too much money for us. The Natami team had thought about getting other companies interested in the N68070/SuperAGA chip, so if that happens we'll be back into 200MHz territory easily.
FPGA performance seems to be progressing at a reasonably good rate, maybe by the time the commercial version of the Natami is ready to be released we'll see cheap FPGAs able to run the N68070/SuperAGA at 200MHz.
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HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?
Absolutely no way anyone could ever raise the money to build a 68K ASIC... it would be quite a big and complex chip... There isn't any magic that can turn VHDL into an ASIC... you still need chip designers to load the HDL code into their software and work it into a functional chip...
This is big money...
Read what I said. I did not say 'ASIC' I said 'structured ASIC'. The Altera HardCopy II may give enough power for a 200MHz 68k family CPU, and costs a fraction of a standard ASIC.
Ok, I've read up about Hardcopy, and it is a Fabing service... it's going to offer better performance than an FPGA... and be cheaper than a full blown ASIC... but it's still big money, money that no one has for some weird slow CPU with no software investment...
No software investment? That's why the Natami60 is being released first, to help build up the software base for the Natami.
Have you noticed that we have gone from lots of different CPU architectures, to basically just 2... the x86 and the ARM... Yes, the PPC is clinging on too... I think you would be hard push to justify why you didn't use either the x86 or the ARM in a new design... And I think you would, probably kiss your job as a chip/system designer goodbye if you choose something other than x86, ARM or PPC in your system...
There simply isn't the investment in software to justify building a system built around the 68k...
As for structured ASIC cost, you may be right that even a structured ASIC may be too much money for us. The Natami team had thought about getting other companies interested in the N68070/SuperAGA chip, so if that happens we'll be back into 200MHz territory easily.
Why would any company be interested in a weird, slow, incompatible and expensive design... where is the value in that? How can you sell that to anyone?
FPGA performance seems to be progressing at a reasonably good rate, maybe by the time the commercial version of the Natami is ready to be released we'll see cheap FPGAs able to run the N68070/SuperAGA at 200MHz.
By which time, your Average PC will be 20 times more powerful!
I have nothing against NATAMI, but you need to be realistic in what can be achieved!
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bloodline wrote:
NATAMI is anything but elegant... the Amiga was an elegant solution to the computing problems of the mid 80's... Take any generic mainstream PC/Mac/whatever and it will be far more elegant a solution to the modern computing environment than an weird Amiga like kludge...
You and I have different interpretations of the word 'elegant' it seems. I am looking from the perspective of less bottlenecks in the system, which the PC/Mac/whatever have. What's the point of all that CPU power if you can't use it to its full potential? Why use the CPU for everything when co-processors can do a better job? As I said PC architecture is moving in the co-processor direction (and has been for a while now) but it's not quite where I'd like it to be yet.
bloodline wrote:
A5000 is a bit of a meaningless idea, But I do understand that it would have been nice to see what could have been... but as the great Dave Haynie has pointed out, The future of Amiga development would have moved to off the shelf parts... AAA was OK, in 93... but nothing but a joke by 97...
AAA != SuperAGA, but I see where you're going by mentioning it.
Personally I have no issue with the PARISC strategy that was planned for the new Amiga CPU, as at least the 68k functions could have been built in to the new CPU core. However, if Commodore were planning on going with all off the shelf parts then I'm glad they fell on their arse when they did because they clearly didn't see the unique benefits of the Amiga architecture.
Moving to off the shelf parts would have been a lazy attempt to renovate the platform to make up for the years they wasted by not investing highly in R&D. Using your same Dave Haynie AAA reference 'it would have been revolutionary if released in 1990'. Commodore had 5 years to get from OCS to AAA, which is plenty of time IF they properly invested in R&D.
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@bloodline
like just how suited the Coldfire actually is to running 68k code
You're correct, it isn't. That's why you put in the JIT.
You are suggesting a symmetric design, which is expensive for this...
Not so sure. Not in CPU's anyway. 166/V2's about $20US each. 200/V4e's About $32US each. 68060 if you can find new stock....$500US. Coding bios an glue logic for a card is where the time would be spent though.
Plaz
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HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
NATAMI is anything but elegant... the Amiga was an elegant solution to the computing problems of the mid 80's... Take any generic mainstream PC/Mac/whatever and it will be far more elegant a solution to the modern computing environment than an weird Amiga like kludge...
You and I have different interpretations of the word 'elegant' it seems. I am looking from the perspective of less bottlenecks in the system, which the PC/Mac/whatever have. What's the point of all that CPU power if you can't use it to its full potential? Why use the CPU for everything when co-processors can do a better job? As I said PC architecture is moving in the co-processor direction (and has been for a while now) but it's not quite where I'd like it to be yet.
There are more "Co-Processors" in even a 10 year old PC than there ever was in the Amiga...
I would love for you to list these "bottlenecks", that PC's have... I can think of plenty present in the AGA chipset, off the top of my head...
bloodline wrote:
A5000 is a bit of a meaningless idea, But I do understand that it would have been nice to see what could have been... but as the great Dave Haynie has pointed out, The future of Amiga development would have moved to off the shelf parts... AAA was OK, in 93... but nothing but a joke by 97...
AAA != SuperAGA, but I see where you're going by mentioning it.
Personally I have no issue with the PARISC strategy that was planned for the new Amiga CPU, as at least the 68k functions could have been built in to the new CPU core.
That was NYX, that was not Amiga compatible, it was a totally new architecture... I was meant to replace the Amiga, though Chris Ludwig did mention that AmigaOS would have been ported to it, the main OS would have been WinNT... Had commodore started on NYX earlier and got it going, then it might have push Commodore ahead again like the Amiga did al those years before...
However, if Commodore were planning on going with all off the shelf parts then I'm glad they fell on their arse when they did because they clearly didn't see the unique benefits of the Amiga architecture.
Moving to off the shelf parts would have been a lazy attempt to renovate the platform to make up for the years they wasted by not investing highly in R&D.
Yes, that's right... and it was the only realistic solution after they failed to capitalise on the Amiga technology....We should have been phasing the AGA chipset out by 1990... perhaps with something like AAA filling the gap until something like NYX could be brought to market by 1992...
Using your same Dave Haynie AAA reference 'it would have been revolutionary if released in 1990'. Commodore had 5 years to get from OCS to AAA, which is plenty of time IF they properly invested in R&D.
Yes, that's sad. But that's what happened and the rest of the world moved on!
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bloodline wrote:
Have you noticed that we have gone from lots of different CPU architectures, to basically just 2... the x86 and the ARM... Yes, the PPC is clinging on too... I think you would be hard push to justify why you didn't use either the x86 or the ARM in a new design... And I think you would, probably kiss your job as a chip/system designer goodbye if you choose something other than x86, ARM or PPC in your system...
There simply isn't the investment in software to justify building a system built around the 68k...
There are plenty of different CPU architectures out there. Whilst I concur that the biggest players in the consumer CPU architecture market are x86/x64 and ARM, that doesn't stop companies using other architectures where appropriate.
bloodline wrote:
Why would any company be interested in a weird, slow, incompatible and expensive design... where is the value in that? How can you sell that to anyone?
Aah, I'm starting to see where you're getting confused now...
bloodline wrote:
By which time, your Average PC will be 20 times more powerful!
I have nothing against NATAMI, but you need to be realistic in what can be achieved!
I'm trying to be realistic in what the Natami can achieve, believe me there are people much more fanatical about the Natami in the Amiga community than me.
I think the reason we're not seeing eye to eye on this is because you think I expect the Natami to compete in the modern PC market. I do not. I do not expect to see it on the shelves of shops (at least not unless an outside company takes a liking to the N68070/SuperAGA chip, for mobile phones for instance). I expect it to be a successful product in the Amiga market, maybe drawing back a few old Amiga users and a few developers interested in retro hardware (demoscene coders for example) but not reviving the commercial viability of the platform.
The Natami is an ambitious hobby project and we have nothing to lose by giving the Natami developers our support. If the N68070 never sees the light of day at least we should have the Natami60 to play around with.
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Plaz wrote:
@bloodline
like just how suited the Coldfire actually is to running 68k code
You're correct, it isn't. That's why you put in the JIT.
No, I mean running a sequence of coldfire instructions that perform the same function as the missing 68k instruction... it's not a simple 1 to 1 mapping... The 68k Addressing modes can require a huge amount of additional logic and arithmetic code to emulate and we haven't even covered Flag calculation... The 68k is horrible to Emulate... that's why you need something big and powerful like the x86 :-)
You are suggesting a symmetric design, which is expensive for this...
Not so sure. Not in CPU's anyway. 166/V2's about $20US each. 200/V4e's About $32US each. 68060 if you can find new stock....$500US. Coding bios an glue logic for a card is where the time would be spent though.
But two coldfires emulating a single 68k, at a speed, perhaps as fast as a 40Mhz 68040... really why bother at this point? Just buy a cheap PC (£250 including everything including a monitor!) and run WinUAE...
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bloodline wrote:
Using your same Dave Haynie AAA reference 'it would have been revolutionary if released in 1990'. Commodore had 5 years to get from OCS to AAA, which is plenty of time IF they properly invested in R&D.
Yes, that's sad. But that's what happened and the rest of the world moved on!
Not all of us, evidently. ;-)
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AmiBoy wrote:
For anyone who is interested in the NatAmi (like me) Gunnar has released an early draft on the 68070 processor they are hoping to implement in the model after the 060 equipmed Dev Board.
I dont really undrerstand any of it but I thought some of the more technical minded people on here might want to take a look!
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=642
I don't get it either: i just prefer the executive summary ;)
I thought they were making an entire machine...
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HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Have you noticed that we have gone from lots of different CPU architectures, to basically just 2... the x86 and the ARM... Yes, the PPC is clinging on too... I think you would be hard push to justify why you didn't use either the x86 or the ARM in a new design... And I think you would, probably kiss your job as a chip/system designer goodbye if you choose something other than x86, ARM or PPC in your system...
There simply isn't the investment in software to justify building a system built around the 68k...
There are plenty of different CPU architectures out there. Whilst I concur that the biggest players in the consumer CPU architecture market are x86/x64 and ARM, that doesn't stop companies using other architectures where appropriate.
I'm talking about general purpose CPU architectures... i.e. the market that the 68k was designed for...
There is basically either an x86 or an ARM that fits into any market and price point now, that needs a general purpose CPU... And you are talking to a MIPS fan here...
bloodline wrote:
Why would any company be interested in a weird, slow, incompatible and expensive design... where is the value in that? How can you sell that to anyone?
Aah, I'm starting to see where you're getting confused now...
bloodline wrote:
By which time, your Average PC will be 20 times more powerful!
I have nothing against NATAMI, but you need to be realistic in what can be achieved!
I'm trying to be realistic in what the Natami can achieve, believe me there are people much more fanatical about the Natami in the Amiga community than me.
But I doubt they are able to see the flaws in their thinking....
I think the reason we're not seeing eye to eye on this is because you think I expect the Natami to compete in the modern PC market. I do not. I do not expect to see it on the shelves of shops
Woah!!! Hang on there!!!! One step at a time... We've not got that far yet! We still have to sell this idea to an investor before we can manufacture it...
(at least not unless an outside company takes a liking to the N68070/SuperAGA chip, for mobile phones for instance).
Ok, give me one thing that N68070/SuperAGA has over an StrongARM/PowerVR chip (i.e. the chipset in the iPhone)?
I expect it to be a successful product in the Amiga market, maybe drawing back a few old Amiga users and a few developers interested in retro hardware (demoscene coders for example) but not reviving the commercial viability of the platform.
The MiniMig was good in the Amiga Market, it was a cheap, simple design and generally compatible with most existing software.
The NATAMI is looking to be expensive and incompatible with features that are not required by the amiga software base.... How do you sell this to an investor?
The Natami is an ambitious hobby project and we have nothing to lose by giving the Natami developers our support. If the N68070 never sees the light of day at least we should have the Natami60 to play around with.
The NATAMI is a fun hobby project, really good... but I really can't be much more... the N68070 is totally pie-in-the-sky, I would suggest the originators of the idea do a lot of reading...
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The 68k Addressing modes can require a huge amount of additional logic and arithmetic code to emulate and we haven't even covered Flag calculation
There's only about 12 instructions to deal with. You just never know when their going to hit the CPU though. The coldfire is a 68K core and about 99.2% compatible with 68x00. The trouble comes when one of thes dozen instructions does a diffent task on the CF than it does on the cold fire. Supervisor mode can capture and redirect invalid instructins to a lib where software takes care of it. However, these few instructions are not invalid and can't be trapped that way. You have to intercept them some how. If you have to intercept a few, you're just as well off intercepting them all with a fast JIT. IO is another problem. V2 is very pin compatible, but slow. V4 is much faster, but not IO compatible. So... to be more specific on my idea. V4 to do JIT to handle invalid instructions, and "feed" the V2 to handle buss IO and execute program code.
All good conversation, but obviouly going nowhere unless I win the lottery this week :-P
Just buy a cheap PC (£250 including everything including a monitor!) and run WinUAE
Not any cheaper than a new card if some one can come up with one. PC emulation is a perfect idea for some things, but I can't run all my hardware. For video and music studio work I might as well just stick with my XP and all the USB hardware. As long as emulation is just amiga "running in a vacuum" it's not useful to me. It all comes back to... no hardware. Ok I'm depressed now. Time to go work on the toaster/flyer box.
Plaz
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I'm talking about general purpose CPU architectures... i.e. the market that the 68k was designed for...
There is basically either an x86 or an ARM that fits into any market and price point now, that needs a general purpose CPU... And you are talking to a MIPS fan here...
But 68k does fit in the Amiga market. The Natami is not aiming to be some PC killer, but rather a supercharged classic Amiga.
But I doubt they are able to see the flaws in their thinking....
I don't know if that was meant to be a sly dig at me or not but I personally I think I'm fairly willing to admit when I've got something wrong.
Ok, give me one thing that N68070/SuperAGA has over an StrongARM/PowerVR chip (i.e. the chipset in the iPhone)?
It will have me coding for it. ;-)
In all seriousness, it's clear that software is the thing that drives computer sales. From a technical perspective I think the N68070/SuperAGA chip would work well in a mobile phone. The software is another matter. The direction of the commercial Natami will largely be determined by the Natami60 software developers.
The NATAMI is looking to be expensive and incompatible with features that are not required by the amiga software base.... How do you sell this to an investor?
With a library of Natami60 apps and games. I personally don't see any investors coming from outside the Amiga community, but who knows.
bloodline wrote:
The NATAMI is a fun hobby project, really good... but I really can't be much more... the N68070 is totally pie-in-the-sky, I would suggest the originators of the idea do a lot of reading...
As I've said, the N68070 is a fairly new idea. I'm glad you approve of the Natami as a fun hobby project. The best way we have to ensure we see this hobby project succeed is to give our advice and support to the Natami team, so what would you add/change in the current N68070 design brief?
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Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Tobiflex m68k core is faster than a 20Mhz 68000 with a DE-1 board.
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Crumb wrote:
Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Tobiflex m68k core is faster than a 20Mhz 68000 with a DE-1 board.
I'm pretty sure 20Mhz is a typo, it should say 200MHz, though thanks for the information about Tobiflex's 68k core.
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Plaz wrote:
The 68k Addressing modes can require a huge amount of additional logic and arithmetic code to emulate and we haven't even covered Flag calculation
There's only about 12 instructions to deal with. You just never know when their going to hit the CPU though. The coldfire is a 68K core and about 99.2% compatible with 68x00. The trouble comes when one of thes dozen instructions does a diffent task on the CF than it does on the cold fire. Supervisor mode can capture and redirect invalid instructins to a lib where software takes care of it. However, these few instructions are not invalid and can't be trapped that way. You have to intercept them some how. If you have to intercept a few, you're just as well off intercepting them all with a fast JIT. IO is another problem. V2 is very pin compatible, but slow. V4 is much faster, but not IO compatible. So... to be more specific on my idea. V4 to do JIT to handle invalid instructions, and "feed" the V2 to handle buss IO and execute program code.
All good conversation, but obviouly going nowhere unless I win the lottery this week :-P
Well lets hope you win that lottery... but in the mean time...
I've spent a fair bit of time reading the tech docs for the Coldfire and it is missing quite a bit, instructions are one thing, but addressing modes are the bane of RISC designs and expunged.
Yes, a JIT is the best way to run 68k code on the Coldfire... but the Coldfire is not a instruction munching monster... it derives it's performance from not having to execute the CISC baggage of the 68k... once the 68k code has con through the JIT all that baggage is added back in...
The supervisor mode of the Coldfire is totally different to the 68k... this means no AmigaOS... your best bet then is to use AROS...
Just buy a cheap PC (£250 including everything including a monitor!) and run WinUAE
Not any cheaper than a new card if some one can come up with one. PC emulation is a perfect idea for some things, but I can't run all my hardware. For video and music studio work I might as well just stick with my XP and all the USB hardware. As long as emulation is just amiga "running in a vacuum" it's not useful to me. It all comes back to... no hardware. Ok I'm depressed now. Time to go work on the toaster/flyer box.
Plaz
I was in a similar situation about 10 years ago... when I needed to keep up with the Music technology curve and the Amiga just wasn't cutting it... My Amiga has been relegated to old synth/effect module status... rather than the centrepiece it once was.
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HenryCase wrote:
I'm talking about general purpose CPU architectures... i.e. the market that the 68k was designed for...
There is basically either an x86 or an ARM that fits into any market and price point now, that needs a general purpose CPU... And you are talking to a MIPS fan here...
But 68k does fit in the Amiga market. The Natami is not aiming to be some PC killer, but rather a supercharged classic Amiga.
This isn't really an Amiga market anymore... there a retro/hobbyist market, and they aren't interested in something a bit compatible with the Amiga... They want to run their old Amiga software, they don't need or want a 9Ghz 68k...
But I doubt they are able to see the flaws in their thinking....
I don't know if that was meant to be a sly dig at me or not but I personally I think I'm fairly willing to admit when I've got something wrong.
I'm not bothering with sly digs tonight! :-)
Ok, give me one thing that N68070/SuperAGA has over an StrongARM/PowerVR chip (i.e. the chipset in the iPhone)?
It will have me coding for it. ;-)
Have you downloaded the iPhone SDK... it's pretty cool... I bet you'd love it even more than Amiga :-o
In all seriousness, it's clear that software is the thing that drives computer sales.
There is nothing else that drives computer sales... Take the iPhone for example, the hardware was pretty unimpressive... but the software was totally innovative...
From a technical perspective I think the N68070/SuperAGA chip would work well in a mobile phone.
That is delusional... it would be expensive, use too much power, get too hot, offer hardly any features of competing hardware and no way could anyone ever afford to have it fabbed at a process small enough to make it fit in a mobile.
The software is another matter. The direction of the commercial Natami will largely be determined by the Natami60 software developers.
:-?
The NATAMI is looking to be expensive and incompatible with features that are not required by the amiga software base.... How do you sell this to an investor?
With a library of Natami60 apps and games.
Your business model is technically "The Underpants Gnomes Model"
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Gnomes_plan.png)
I personally don't see any investors coming from outside the Amiga community, but who knows.
Well, go on... sell it to me...
bloodline wrote:
The NATAMI is a fun hobby project, really good... but I really can't be much more... the N68070 is totally pie-in-the-sky, I would suggest the originators of the idea do a lot of reading...
As I've said, the N68070 is a fairly new idea. I'm glad you approve of the Natami as a fun hobby project.
Well.. I am an Amiga guy... just a realistic one...
The best way we have to ensure we see this hobby project succeed is to give our advice and support to the Natami team, so what would you add/change in the current N68070 design brief?
Everything... :-(
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Crumb wrote:
Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Tobiflex m68k core is faster than a 20Mhz 68000 with a DE-1 board.
Yeah, and really how fast does it actually run?
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I still think the NatAmi should have one Zorro slot and a video slot so the Video Toaster 4000 & Flyer card can work in it. Maybe the next version?
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bloodline wrote:
Crumb wrote:
Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...
Tobiflex m68k core is faster than a 20Mhz 68000 with a DE-1 board.
Yeah, and really how fast does it actually run?
Well with all that positive energy, it is sure to do well!
I am hoping that the NatAmi team does not give up when they come across a few tough obstacles and is able to prove the "Nay Sayer's" all wrong and come out with an improved Amiga 68k design that does indeed run faster than any existing Classic Amiga.
Why spend so much energy telling people that their plans are impossible when such a project would be a benefit to the Amiga community?
And, for the person who wrote that no one in the Amiga community wants a super 68k and super AGA, WRONG! That is exactly what I would like to have. A 200-400mHz 68040/68060 with Super AGA or AAA that is fully backward compatible with AGA and ECS, OCS software.
You can have your PPC AmigaOne and OS4.0, I would rather spend my time working on and with OS3.x and what might be possible with the NatAmi.
As a commercial project, it may not succeed as there are not enough people that will purchase it, or enough developers that will write programs for it.
I'm too tired to rant any further.
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bloodline wrote:
Crumb wrote:
Tobiflex m68k core is faster than a 20Mhz 68000 with a DE-1 board.
Yeah, and really how fast does it actually run?
What do you mean? I would imagine it runs at 20MHz. Although MHz is never a good comparison. You need something like the SPECint performance to get a good comparison. Several of the instructions in TG68 are many times faster than a regular MC68000 meaning a 20MHz TG68 is probably more than 3x faster than a 7MHz MC68000
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The natami developers are living 20 kilometers next to me ;-)
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bloodline, you funny guy.
You know, Amiga IS superior.
We MUST have the NatAmi60 because:
First; genuine RAM: disk. Then, genuine draggable screens.
Oh, and what of RAD: and it's surviving reboots?
And I can't install winXP with SP 2 in the ram disk of WinXP (which doesn't exist) and reboot winXP from ram. So clearly winXP is an INFERIOR OS.
xp doesn't have those, and can't operate with swapspace deactivated, and it DOESN'T tell you that that's why it won't work, it just doesn't (this is NOT a myth). Then, if you tell the computer to NOT accept input from the ethernet (internet connection), my computer GRINDS to a halt, well, REALLY slows down, anyway.
MP can kiss my ass. I want a ONE USER OS, and bill gates, deceptive rat fink, can NOT tell me otherwise.
Software architect nothing, he couldn't write a notepad for AOS2.0 replacement that WORKS.
My computer of 2.26 GHz P IV with 1 Gig ram stalls (~3 seconds) when opening a 2 to 4 meg ASCII file!!!!!!!!!
AND when I save the smallest trivial web pages with FireFox 2, it take 5 to 10 seconds (not kidding, SECONDS) before I can use FF again.
HE decided people wanted colour, then HE decided they wanted GUI then HE decided people need MP, then HE decided you want registry and multiple logins, hey now, play games TOO......
WE HAD ALL THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(bar logins, registry, MP (but MP WAS optional))
The AOS1.3 more command, I couldn't press the space bar fast enough to outpace more reading off a FLOPPY DISK!!!!
xp is PURE GARBAGE.
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Okay, what do I know, I'm not that techie, but what about EPROM and EEPROM????
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And what about DLLs and notepad on xp being 64 K in size?
Our programs are mind bogglingly SMALL and yet VERY feature filled, and xp is 32 bit, and so is AOS!!!!!
We can multi-task without MP and self modifying code IS permitted.
It's XP that lacks FEATURES!!
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Atheist wrote:
My computer of 2.26 GHz P IV with 1 Gig ram stalls (~3 seconds) when opening a 2 to 4 meg ASCII file!!!!!!!!!
AND when I save the smallest trivial web pages with FireFox 2, it take 5 to 10 seconds (not kidding, SECONDS) before I can use FF again.
Sounds like you have user error. Probably too much CRAP installed as background processes, probably some rubbish AV software monitoring everything you open, close, save etc.
50Mbyte ASCII file takes about 3 seconds to load here.
After saving webpages with Firefox I can use FF instantly.
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@alexh
You can't reason with this guy.
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Plaz wrote:
I imagined they were trying to do it all in one [Coldfire] CPU, and that can only handle so much.
And you want to have more than one?? Does the Coldfire have any hardware multiprocessing capability? Even if it does, it will be a nightmare to develop and write software for unless you abstract the entire system... and if you are going to do that... why use Coldfire?
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We MUST have the NatAmi60 because:
First; genuine RAM: disk. Then, genuine draggable screens.
:roflmao: :hammer: :smack: :roll: :crazy: :roflmao:
Oh, and what of RAD: and it's surviving reboots?
RAD is mostly useless for me. And it's useless for most of people with a stable OS that doesn't reboot each 10 minutes.
And I can't install winXP with SP 2 in the ram disk of WinXP (which doesn't exist) and reboot winXP from ram. So clearly winXP is an INFERIOR OS.
Erm... yeah! sure!
:roflmao: :hammer: :smack: :roll: :crazy: :roflmao:
xp doesn't have those, and can't operate with swapspace deactivated,
There's something wrong in your system because I can. Working without swapspace is not a myth, I have done it in the past (it's not a good idea since running out of ram is worst than having some slowdown when paging occurs)
My computer of 2.26 GHz P IV with 1 Gig ram stalls (~3 seconds) when opening a 2 to 4 meg ASCII file!!!!!!!!!
Your computer is badly configured by the user.
AND when I save the smallest trivial web pages with FireFox 2, it take 5 to 10 seconds (not kidding, SECONDS) before I can use FF again.
You have rubbish installed in your system, don't you? Norton antivirus perhaps?
xp is PURE GARBAGE.
Perhaps, but your reasoning for claiming that is totally flawed and insane. And it's pretty clear that you don't know how to use or configure your peecee.
Perhaps you should switch to AROS. No m68k apps but AmigaOS-like OS. Oh! I almost forgot you hate everything that doesn't have a label with "the name" ;-D
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bloodline wrote:
Crumb wrote:
Tobiflex m68k core is faster than a 20Mhz 68000 with a DE-1 board.
Yeah, and really how fast does it actually run?
Using Tobiflex "FAMPIGA" m68k core on a DE-1 board SysInfo reports a 43.10Mhz 68000. Since it's not a JIT, there are no caches involved and the timing should be quite accurate you can be sure it will be always much faster than a standard 68000.
Is there any brave FPGA coder who wants to include 68020 instructions to Tobiflex "FAMPIGA"? :-)
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@ Atheist
OMG!!!!!!
Really if you are going to post, try not to make youself look like such a complete idiot. You obviously have no idea whatsoever about anything. You obviously do not know how to operate or set-up any comwputer. I wouldd dread to think the mess you would make of any OS install.
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Whenever Natami is mentioned, it seems inevitable that the project team members will eventually be ridiculed. I've been watching threads on other sites and I already can guess how it will end here as well... No wonder they prefer to discuss only on their official site!
Ok, maybe certain design aspects are being under-estimated, but with all the 'I know better' style of comments is this the right way to encourage them? Or do we have here a bunch of people who find delight in seeing others fail?
Without knowing how they are implementing the system, who are we to judge about clock speeds and such? Maybe they are doing a parallel design, and obtain 200MHz equivalent speed through parallelism? Maybe they are basing work on TG68? Who knows?
Their idea of using a custom 68k implementation is that they can tweak caches to snoop the chipset bus/registers or something like that. Whatever that means, it seems like a good idea to me, and NO ONE should be telling them that it's not worth the trouble. They will do their tests and they will decide whether to pursue that or not.
Whatever it may be they're doing, I believe that lots of people on this forum can provide great input to the developers about certain specs for the system, rather than criticising their decisions or claims.
Now that I got this off my chest, I'll just enjoy the whole Natami show as a spectator, and who knows, maybe I'll buy one as a toy someday. Apart from that, this thread has become quite amusing lately thanks to fan #1...
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wolfchild wrote:
Whenever Natami is mentioned, it seems inevitable that the project team members will eventually be ridiculed.
In order for them to be ridiculed, first they must write something ridiculous surely?
wolfchild wrote:
Without knowing how they are implementing the system, who are we to judge about clock speeds and such?
15 years of ASIC and FPGA design and a current job in a top chip company??
wolfchild wrote:
NO ONE should be telling them that it's not worth the trouble.
No, but at the same time someone should be telling them to be realistic. If they have their heart set on a soft 68k core then they should progress along the development. Start off simple and progress the design forward. Evolve their design. Not make any wild claims about prices, speeds, and structured ASIC's until they are well into their testing phase.
I wish their "team" all the best with their development. I hope that they can inspire and collaborate with the "do-ers" in this area, Tobias Gubener, Arnim Läuger, Gary Becker, Wolfgang Förster, MikeJ and the people over at PACEDev (and everyone else I missed) into taking part in debates.
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Hi Crumb,
Is there any brave FPGA coder who wants to include 68020 instructions to Tobiflex "FAMPIGA"? :-)
We toyed with this idea once before:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32100
Probably not TOO difficult to make a 68020 "CODE COMPATIBLE" version, but with 16bit data bus and minus 68020 goodies like:
256byte caches.
three-stage pipeline.
Odd-word aligned data is probably the biggest enemy, though most high-level compilers are unlike to produce such code.
Normally there would be a compile option to avoid producing odd-word aligned data anyway.
Red
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A lot of negativity here. Some people miss that many technological advances and some commercial successes started out as an idea, a crazy notion, or a fanatical hobby. While NatAmi may not be a way to compete in today's market, we should not and cannot discount that it may spawn other ideas or advanced methods which develop into better products.
A long time ago at a C64 swap party I mentioned that I wanted to hack together a real 6551 and support software and give the C64 the ability to communicate faster than 2400 baud. I was dissuaded by all in the group because "the disk drive won't even run that fast." A few years later CMD introduced the SwiftLink-232.
I should have done it, anyway. And though it looks as if they do not really need it, I give that advice and encouragement to the NatAmi team.
And to the guy who mentioned self-modifying code, that is a good idea and all for old-timer programming (like 6502 hacking, demo stuff, etc.,) but in the modern world it is a massive security risk. Apparently modern programmers and hardware architects have a pretty good grasp on that, now they just need to find a reliable way to prevent stack and heap corruption from pwning b0xen.
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it will be a nightmare to develop and write software for unless you abstract the entire system... and if you are going to do that... why use Coldfire?
Yes, I mentioned earlier that the bios (firmware) and glue logic would be the biggest tax on such a design. Coldfire would have seemed like the logical successor to 68K for backward code compatibility with classics, but it's proving to be untrue. Too limited, too slow. A card with an embedded JIT and a 4ghz x86 chip wouldn't be easy either, but starts to make more sense.
Plaz
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@alexh
In order for them to be ridiculed, first they must write something ridiculous surely?
Surely you jest. One only need post the observed weather in some places to become a target for fodder. :-)
Plaz
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@all
Could I suggest that people be a bit more careful with unit prefixes? For example, 200-400 mHz would be 200-400 milli-Hertz, i.e., one cycle every 2.5 - 5 seconds. I am absolutely sure that the Natami team can beat that clock speed. I am also certain that you would not be happy with such performance. :lol:
200-400 MHz (or mega-Hertz) on the other hand, would be orders of magnitude better.
Hans
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Hi,
I just want to know what is the 68070/68080. I always tought the 68070 was a microcontroller chip used on CDi what did not share anything with the 68k familly.
Thanks
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@wolfchild && LoadWB
Don't get me wrong I'm glad that they want to do it, I'm just worried that it becomes a matter of overreach. ASIC, or even a structured-ASIC, looks like it could be out of their reach which also precludes ColdFire even if Gunnar is right that it can be compatible enough to 68k code.
I want to see the Natami do well and initially that seems to mean the Natami60. The N68070 is a cool idea but is also an enormous undertaking.
How much do FPGAs with a couple of million gate equivalent cost? About $522 according to DigiKey (122-1350-ND (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=122-1350-ND)). Which bearing in mind that the 68060 used 2.4million gates is a reasonable assumption to have about target size which doesn't compare all that well to the remaining 35 68060 (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=MC68060RC50-ND)s also at DigiKey (its easy to get these prices from there which is why i'm using it).
All of this is why I suggested they not speculate but actually try to implement some of the things that they want in an existing verifiable core like the tg68k such as Instruction Pipelining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_pipeline) and Superscalar Execution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superscalar) that the 68060 had.
Just my 2 pence.
Andy
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jlariv8957 wrote:
Hi,
I just want to know what is the 68070/68080. I always tought the 68070 was a microcontroller chip used on CDi what did not share anything with the 68k familly.
Thanks
The N68070 in this case is a design for a chip that the Natami team members would like to implement after they've done the Natami060. See Natami 68070 (http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=642).
Andy
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You know, this reminds me of work I've been doing to make a unit that can act as a 14Mhz 68000 in one mode, or a high-speed RISC in another. Basically, adds a decode step to the pipeline for when in the legacy mode. The m68k instruction set just does not scale up for higher speed very well, hence why the new RISC'ier setup. But for legacy apps, the decode would give backwards compat.
Nothing beyond a draft tho as I'm still getting the RISC core to work right.
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bloodline wrote:
perhaps with something like AAA filling the gap until something like NYX could be brought to market by 1992..
Err ;-)
The Nyx was the AAA prototype... link (http://www.thule.no/haynie/)
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Zac67 wrote:
bloodline wrote:
perhaps with something like AAA filling the gap until something like NYX could be brought to market by 1992..
Err ;-)
The Nyx was the AAA prototype... link (http://www.thule.no/haynie/)
You are correct! I am thinking of Hombre, all these stupid code names so long ago :-)
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Phew, just made it through this long thread...
Actually, I have the impression that many posters do offer very constructive criticism to point out where the effort could be more effective. I can't imagine anyone reading here who wouldn't be totally enthusiastic when all this could eventually be realised.
However, some of the possible design goals are not at all realistic (chipset for mobile phones, ASIC design, ...) and should seriously be rethought before much time gets wasted on them...
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Zac67 wrote:
However, some of the possible design goals are not at all realistic (chipset for mobile phones, ASIC design, ...) and should seriously be rethought before much time gets wasted on them...
Those were not design goals, those were my own ideas. I am not a member of the Natami team. Perhaps it would be better if you visited the Natami forums to see what the real plans for the Natami are.
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Plaz wrote:
it will be a nightmare to develop and write software for unless you abstract the entire system... and if you are going to do that... why use Coldfire?
Yes, I mentioned earlier that the bios (firmware) and glue logic would be the biggest tax on such a design. Coldfire would have seemed like the logical successor to 68K for backward code compatibility with classics, but it's proving to be untrue. Too limited, too slow. A card with an embedded JIT and a 4ghz x86 chip wouldn't be easy either, but starts to make more sense.
For me that would make the most sense for an Amiga accelerator... if anyone still wanted to make one... But I think seriously, an ARM core with a JIT is the most sensible long term solution... The ARM is low power, well supported, it's not going anywhere and with a nice JIT should reach standard 680x0 performance with the current generation...
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Zac67 wrote:
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.
Err...
The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.
And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...
....Bullshit....
CSPPC came before ColdFire. That Power PC CPU is RISC dude!
Too Risque! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC)
Coldfire Origins.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldfire)
;-)
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Kin-Hell wrote:
Zac67 wrote:
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.
Err...
The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.
And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...
....Bullshit....
CSPPC came before ColdFire. That Power PC CPU is RISC dude!
Too Risque! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC)
Coldfire Origins.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldfire)
;-)
But Zac67 is right, the 68060 is not RISC...
You can read all about the 060 architecture here:
http://security-protocols.com/library/phreaking/68060Info.txt
It explains it all rather simply (If English is your first language).
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@Kin-Hell
Oh boy - I was talking about 68k-ish RISC. :roll: (or rather RISC-ish 68k)
Of course RISC predates Coldfire - but e.g. ARM predates PowerPC by nearly a decade, not to mention MIPS.
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Seems like quite a hurdle, I hope it comes to pass.
For the record I think a classic Amiga replacement board like NatAmi would be awesome!
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Atheist wrote:
*snip*
You don't even know what video card was in your A1; I hardly think your thoughts on how Windows works or what features an OS "needs" are salient, here.
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@vloodline
The MiniMig was good in the Amiga Market, it was a cheap, simple design and generally compatible with most existing software.
The NATAMI is looking to be expensive and incompatible with features that are not required by the amiga software base.... How do you sell this to an investor?
How do you figure this? Sure the prototype, and the planned developer boards will be using a FPGA based board which are expensive for the features they offer.
However, they are investigating the coldfire option in order to lower that price barrier. Once they started looking at coldfire, and incompatabilities in the instruction set, they started looking into ways to work around those incompatabilities. First they suggested a .library file, or modifying code (hard to do when you don't have the source)
Next they discovered that they could get their SuperAGA FPGA stuff programmed into the Coldfire package, giving a low-cost ($20 / 'chip' was a price quoted) solution, which would result in a very affordable ($100 for a working board) product. Of course then someone said, it'd be cool if you could stick a 68k into the FPGA code, then you wouldn't have to bother with coldfire issues. This is where the 68070 effort began.
Now, how do-able this is, I don't know. But if they could get a $20 SuperAGA + 680x0 on Coldfire solution done, and licence it out to whoever wanted to build a board to go with it, how many do you think would sell at $100 / board?
The NatAmi team is claiming 100% AGA compability (not including timing) so they say just about anything you care for (maybe not demos) should run as normal on it. Then they're extending it to have a larger CHIP RAM address space, and that chip ram is SRAM not DRAM, so it's much faster, allowing them to run an extended instruction set in their SuperAGA 'chipset' to give better audio, better CG (including 3D) and other features, while remaining 100% compatible.
So it's compatible, faster, more featured, and planned on being very affordable. How many people out there do you think would get one? How many people bought C64DTVs?
I know I'll get a NatAmi if they can attain these goals.
tiffers
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tiffers wrote:
So it's compatible, faster, more featured, and planned on being very affordable. How many people out there do you think would get one? How many people bought C64DTVs?
C64DTV's were sold for something like $20 as full product, with 20-30 games included. I bet a similar amiga-in-a-joystick would sell like hotcakes with a similar price. But somehow I doubt the Natami can reach that price. And a $100 bare board, even if cheap by amiga standards, isn't nearly as tempting as a fully working product and wouldn't get the masses to buy one.
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If it was possible to erase from the "configurable" coldfire the incompatible instructions it would be useful. If that can't be done then custom coldfire will be mostly useless
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>My computer of 2.26 GHz P IV with 1 Gig ram stalls (~3 seconds) when opening a 2 to 4 meg ASCII file!!!!!!!!!
Are you sure that's not Vista? XP with 1 GB RAM should be pretty fast at 2.26Ghz CPU speed. Perhaps, you need to try installing Windows '98SE or Windows 3.1 or DOS. That ought to speed things up quite a bit from XP (if you have the drivers for the hardware in your machine). Else try upgrading to multiprocessor based machine and use single-processor versions of anti-viruses/anti-spywares.
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>> wolfchild wrote:
>> Whenever Natami is mentioned, it seems inevitable that the project team members will eventually be ridiculed.
>In order for them to be ridiculed, first they must write something ridiculous surely?
Not really, some people like Galileo, Newton, etc. got ridiculed although they were right. Some people have more experience/knowledge of specific subjects than others and if it does not fit into the "norm" of what everyone else does/follows, it makes others ridicule them. Although, most people picked the slower-processor based Amiga at 7.16Mhz over the Atari ST (@8Mhz), that was a good choice in the 80s. Now if you use an Amiga over a 4Ghz PC, it's not the "norm" since only the processor speed counts in most people's minds.
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tiffers wrote:
Next they discovered that they could get their SuperAGA FPGA stuff programmed into the Coldfire package, giving a low-cost ($20 / 'chip' was a price quoted) solution
*Cough* bullsh!t
How much was the design services going to cost(NRE)?
What was the minimum order quantity(MOQ)?
Either you are re-telling the story incorrectly... or someone is telling porkies.
I can imagine they discovered (http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2008/06/09/43894/altera-fpgas-get-coldfire-soft-core.htm) that you can use a synthesisable (Soft) Coldfire alongside your design in a regular Altera cyclone III FPGA. (but $20 sounds too cheap. The Coldfire alone requires at least 5000LE's (http://www.ip-extreme.com/downloads/V1_ColdFire_FPGACIII_Brochure.pdf))
Perhaps there is already an FPGA which has a Coldfire hard macro in the corner (there are a lot with PowerPC's in the corner)?
tiffers wrote:
How many people bought C64DTVs?
A lot less than were supposed to in the UK judging by the fact they were discounted down to just £2 in ARGOS!
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tiffers wrote:
@vloodline
The MiniMig was good in the Amiga Market, it was a cheap, simple design and generally compatible with most existing software.
The NATAMI is looking to be expensive and incompatible with features that are not required by the amiga software base.... How do you sell this to an investor?
How do you figure this?
From my understanding of technology and the available documentation regarding the NATAMI.
Sure the prototype, and the planned developer boards will be using a FPGA based board which are expensive for the features they offer.
I dissagree, an FPGA developer board is great value for money... for the hobby market, which is the market we are currently in.
However, they are investigating the coldfire option in order to lower that price barrier. Once they started looking at coldfire, and incompatabilities in the instruction set, they started looking into ways to work around those incompatabilities.
The Coldfire really isn't looking attractive...
First they suggested a .library file, or modifying code (hard to do when you don't have the source)
:-? :-? :-?
Next they discovered that they could get their SuperAGA FPGA stuff programmed into the Coldfire package, giving a low-cost ($20 / 'chip' was a price quoted) solution, which would result in a very affordable ($100 for a working board) product.
You what? $20 FPGA + a Coldfire... you have to be dreaming!?!?!
Of course then someone said, it'd be cool if you could stick a 68k into the FPGA code, then you wouldn't have to bother with coldfire issues. This is where the 68070 effort began.
I like the idea of having the 68k and the chipset on a single FPGA. I think it's agreat idea, perfect for the MiniMIG etc... But I get very annoyed when I see these crazy threads about creating a "Super68k"... IMO we should be happy to get something that is compatible with as of similar performance to the 68030... if possible, into a small enough design that can share silicon with the Chipset.
Now, how do-able this is, I don't know.
But if they could get a $20 SuperAGA + 680x0 on Coldfire solution done, and licence it out to whoever wanted to build a board to go with it, how many do you think would sell at $100 / board?
5 (with a +-2 margin of error).
The NatAmi team is claiming 100% AGA compability (not including timing)
Timing is EVERYTHING with the Amiga chipset! Listen to Jens talking about the CloneA, as soon as you are not cycle exact, you are not compatible... If you are not 100% compatible, then there is NO point using an Amiga chipset... Just use a modern one that works better.
so they say just about anything you care for (maybe not demos) should run as normal on it.
If it's not cycle exact, then only thing that might work is the OS... and anything that uses the OS in a system legal way... If that is the case, then why bother with the "Amiga Style" GFX chips?
Then they're extending it to have a larger CHIP RAM address space
Increase the Chipram, and you become incompatible...
and that chip ram is SRAM not DRAM, so it's much faster, allowing them to run an extended instruction set in their SuperAGA 'chipset' to give better audio, better CG (including 3D) and other features, while remaining 100% compatible.
SRAM or DRAM... make no difference for something as slow as the Amiga Graphics architecture... DRAM chips are easily as fast (if not much faster) as requried. SRAM chips are just easier to interface with, thoguh quite a bit more expensive!
So it's compatible,
No it's not. I know you don't beleive me... But you have to believe Jens from Individual computers?!?!
faster,
Faster? Fast than what? A 16 year old graphics chipset... I could buy a gfx chip off the shelf for $2 that would be faster and offer more features than NATAMI...
[/quote]
more featured,
[/quote]
More features than a 16year old chipset? See above!
and planned on being very affordable.
I plan on Dating a German supermodel with a degree in quantum mechanics... can you see where I'm going with this?
How many people out there do you think would get one? How many people bought C64DTVs?
I don't know... they were heavily discounted here (to somthing like £5) and I still didn't bother buying one... And no more were or are planned to be made... I guess it wasn't that popular...
I know I'll get a NatAmi if they can attain these goals.
If I meet that German supermodel with more than a passing interest in theoretical physics... I'll think about letting her go out with me...
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amigaksi wrote:
>> wolfchild wrote:
>> Whenever Natami is mentioned, it seems inevitable that the project team members will eventually be ridiculed.
>In order for them to be ridiculed, first they must write something ridiculous surely?
Not really, some people like Galileo
Galileo was not ridiculed... he was persecuted by the Church, an organisation with hardly a good reputation regarding scientific matters...
, Newton, etc.
Newton was a highly respected scientist... never ridiculed... Do you even know history?
got ridiculed although they were right. Some people have more experience/knowledge of specific subjects than others and if it does not fit into the "norm" of what everyone else does/follows, it makes others ridicule them.
Err... no... we don't live in the middle ages... we have the scientific method. If you suggest something and are able to back it up with evidence, repeatable results and testable observations, people will test and except your results.
Although, most people picked the slower-processor based Amiga at 7.16Mhz over the Atari ST (@8Mhz), that was a good choice in the 80s.
I doubt even 1% of the people who bought computers in the 80s even know what speed their CPU was... or even that CPUs had speed ratings.
You bought the computer that had the most software, or the one that had the better software...
Now if you use an Amiga over a 4Ghz PC, it's not the "norm" since only the processor speed counts in most people's minds.
If you use an Amiga over a 4Ghz PC (does anyone have a 4Ghz PC?!?!), then you don't need the modern features that modern hardware and software can provide.
I can no longer use my Amiga as either my work machine... my hobby machine or even my everyday machine...
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bloodline, you are overly negative, just as biggun is too enthusiastic over the matter. look at this thread, some 50% of it are your posts, trying to convince people that something is impossible, i thing u could easily use this energy in some more constructive way. i believe, most people involved in amiga scene have got a clou about natami, but just keep quiet as long as anything is proven either way (at least me do).
as for selling rates of a complete amiga compatible system for any 100eur not to mention 100$ (lol) it would surely exceed 10 pieces. just notice how much you pay for any old amiga hardware today. and dont mention minimig should have been a bigger succes as nobody sane actually needs replacement for original a500 i believe. well i have no need at least.
as for jens schoenfeld arguments, do not forget that he is working on a concurent design. the amiga-hardware designers scene here in germany and poland (e3b, elbox, ic) seems to takes no risks by supporting each other products, due to the little market i believe.
j.s. always underlines that clone_a would be cycle exact replacement for the amiga, but is an a4k (with a cyberstorm060/ppc) cycle exact with a a500? if it is probably natami aga chipset replacement is compatible too since there it was shown to public and there are snapshots of it running genuine amiga apps on the natami page.
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wawrzon wrote:
is an a4k (with a cyberstorm060/ppc) cycle exact with a a500?
As cycle accurate as AGA can be to ECS/OCS. Certainly a lot better than MiniMig for example.
wawrzon wrote:
if it is probably natami aga chipset replacement is compatible too since there it was shown to public and there are snapshots of it running genuine amiga apps on the natami page.
While intended to be compatible, it will suffer from just as many problems as MiniMig (if not more) and will take a long time to debug. Mainly because of all the subtleties in the chipset that were never written down (AGA is worse because there was no HRM). But they'll get there. The FPGA development kit will allow for quick bug fixes.
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wawrzon wrote:
as for selling rates of a complete amiga compatible system for any 100eur not to mention 100$ (lol) it would surely exceed 10 pieces.
With sales projections like that, I don't know what the developers are waiting for!
--
moto
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@alexh: i dont mind taking part in debugging such a system if i could contribute in any way. honestly i would even buy a dev board for multiple of 100$ eventhough im not a progger. i paid lately 700eur for an a4k equipped with a csppc, and i do not regret. i think there are some more people like that if even a guide to build-it-yourself-ng-a1k-board is getting enough attention.
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wawrzon wrote:
bloodline, you are overly negative,
Not surprising considering the absurd claims you see from some people... especially people who seem to not have a clue (Atheist, amongst others)
There are some real gems on the Natami forums:
Intel recently said that the future of GPUs will be ray-tracing and Nvidia said that such claims are ridiculous. From what I read NATAMI , comes out of nowhere with a home-grown designed CPU and GPU, is supposed to be capable of ray-tracing Quake 3 @ 800x600/truecolor @ 30fps!
I fully support the Natami project, and I might even buy one if I find myself with the cash handy. If they get it working it'll be an incredible feat, and it'll be cool no matter how its benchmarks compare to a new PC... but these claims that it will be the fastest computer ever and cost 100 inflation-wrecked American dollars... you don't really know whether to laugh or start smashing skulls.
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@niklasni1:
sure, i follow that forum, while not posting much. but who cares for overall iq level of regular amiga fans anymore.
edit: by the way even gunnar has never claimed natami is going to compare to a p4 whatsoever cpu-preformancewise. on the opposite: he tries to calm people making such assumptions down. so dont let u distract by kids
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I dont think bloodline is being overly negative and i dont recall saying things are impossible, just that are pointless, or at worst mis-guided. People like AlexH who has been a chip designer for aa long time is also just trying to stop people wasting time and making crazy claims.
I love Amigas, but I have not switched my PPC A1200 on in a very long time. It cant do the things I need to do , work wise or game wise, or anyhting wise.
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wawrzon wrote:
bloodline, you are overly negative, just as biggun is too enthusiastic over the matter.
Overly neagative say you. But I am not happy with people basically making a joke out of the Amiga. It was the best computer of its time... But all these absurd claims do nothing but drag the memory of this milesone in computer history through the mud.
look at this thread, some 50% of it are your posts, trying to convince people that something is impossible, i thing u could easily use this energy in some more constructive way.
I'm simply trying to show people the flaws in their thinking. I offer my advice based on the research that I do and the experience I have, I don't not pull numbers out of the air, and make insane claims, that are not technically feasable!
i believe, most people involved in amiga scene have got a clou about natami, but just keep quiet as long as anything is proven either way (at least me do).
as for selling rates of a complete amiga compatible system for any 100eur not to mention 100$ (lol) it would surely exceed 10 pieces.
But not, if it was not 100% Amiga compatible. The NATAMI team can waste time adding a 1000 new features but for every incompatiblity it introduces... the market is halved.
just notice how much you pay for any old amiga hardware today.
Hadware that is proven to work with the Amiga software base.
and dont mention minimig should have been a bigger succes as nobody sane actually needs replacement for original a500 i believe. well i have no need at least.
What Amiga Compatible do you have need for?
as for jens schoenfeld arguments, do not forget that he is working on a concurent design. the amiga-hardware designers scene here in germany and poland (e3b, elbox, ic) seems to takes no risks by supporting each other products, due to the little market i believe.
j.s. always underlines that clone_a would be cycle exact replacement for the amiga, but is an a4k (with a cyberstorm060/ppc) cycle exact with a a500?
An A4000 is cycle exact with the Amiga... it is an Amiga...
if it is probably natami aga chipset replacement is compatible too
But with the AGA chipset timing was never really an issue, it was the 2megs Chip and register gaps filled with new functions that caused the problems... switch these off (in the early boot) and all but one of my A500 software would work...
since there it was shown to public and there are snapshots of it running genuine amiga apps on the natami page.
I've seen screen shots of Workbench running... That is all... And that could run on Amithlon with no Amiga hardware (and very minimal CIA emualtion).
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bloodline wrote:
But with the AGA chipset timing was never really an issue
Not sure that is 100% true.
bloodline wrote:
it was the 2megs Chip and register gaps filled with new functions...
Yeah, and more importantly the new kickstart ROM and cpu caches.
bloodline wrote:
switch these off (in the early boot) and all but one of my A500 software would work...
You must not have had much software then ;-)
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alexh wrote:
bloodline wrote:
But with the AGA chipset timing was never really an issue
Not sure that is 100% true.
I did say "really", but I can't off the top of my head think of any place where I had an issue with the timings... Blitter and DMAs and stuff all seems to be the same... (Though I remember the AGA fetch modes all being messed up...) Though I'm not going to go back and look at 14year old source code to confirm :-) I didn't have an A1200 compatible ActionReplay either so I never hit the AGA hardware as hard as the OCS...
bloodline wrote:
it was the 2megs Chip and register gaps filled with new functions...
Yeah, and more importantly the new kickstart ROM and cpu caches.
I was going to mention them... but really we are talking about the chipset...
bloodline wrote:
switch these off (in the early boot) and all but one of my A500 software would work...
You must not have had much software then ;-)
Hhahaha, I was poor back then! Seriously, I think it was only MegaLoMania that really put up a fuss... Though I "know"* I got it working... Perhaps something else too... Damn UAE is so much easier :-)
*as in; quite sure...
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@JJ
Do you have graphic card in that PPC 1200? A BlizzardVisionPPC would be perfect for running MorphOS or AmigaOS4
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I sure do. I have a bvisions and a CV64/3D :)
Just cant afford to shell out on AOS4 at the moment, how much is it in £
And I never manged to get MorphsOS free to work on it.
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Crumb wrote:
@JJ
Do you have graphic card in that PPC 1200? A BlizzardVisionPPC would be perfect for running MorphOS or AmigaOS4
I have a BVision in my A1200... but can't run OS4 as I only have 32Meg Fast.
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I only have 64mb. sold all my memory with my Blizzrd IV 030 and scsi kit, DOH.
Is 64mb enough ?
TBH I doubt I would use OS4 anywere near enough to warrant forking out the doh for it.
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@bloodline
The ARM is low power, well supported, it's not going anywhere and with a nice JIT should reach standard 680x0 performance with the current generation...
Something else I need to look into then.
Plaz
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@bloodline
I was just quoting what Gunnar/biggun has said in other threads, on other forums.
You (and others here) certainly seem to have much greater knowledge than I, about the specific technologies being discussed. I was just trying to show that NatAmi (according to Gunnar) is really placed to be cheaper than the MiniMig (in the CPU + chipset + Coldfire all-in-one configuration) and more compatible than the MiniMig in it's current state, and thus shouldn't be slammed too hard on the 'incompatible and expensive' claims.
Sub-$100 NatAmi (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25715&forum=25&start=520&viewmode=flat&order=0#435487) And another (http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=34)
The proof, as I have heard said, will be in the pudding.
tiffers.
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@bloodline: what kind of amiga compatible i need, you ask? accidentally just that kind the natami specs state, even up to genlocking (overlay) possibility, because that is what i tehnically use them mostly for. i wouldnt complain about some extra computing speed but thats not the primary issue for me. i can use pc for most computing tasks. up till now i mostly used amigas as simple, reliable, cheap, idiot-proof (no shutdown needed, just pull the power cord) controllers for my "video" installations.
i do not estimate too that every extra feature introduced to the amiga compatible will narrow the interested user base as long as it doesnt contradict an existing one. it even possibly will become part of some future standard.
i sense you see no future for anything connected to amiga either way since you have already placed it in sentimental past and want to conserve this as such. im fine with it.
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wawrzon wrote:
@bloodline: what kind of amiga compatible i need, you ask?
accidentally just that kind the natami specs state, even up to genlocking (overlay) possibility, because that is what i tehnically use them mostly for.
I did not ask what you wanted. I asked what you actually needed from your Amiga. Do you need an Amiga Compatible or some kind of SuperAmiga that might not be so compatible.
i wouldnt complain about some extra computing speed but thats not the primary issue for me.
So what you need is an Amiga compatible... So something like a bugfixed MiniMig or CloneA would suit your needs?
i can use pc for most computing tasks. up till now i mostly used amigas as simple, reliable, cheap, idiot-proof (no shutdown needed, just pull the power cord) controllers for my "video" installations.
Right, so you have software that you currently use on Amiga systems that you need to use in your video installations. That's fine, and when all the original Amiga hardware dies, having a supply of new Amiga Compatible hardware would be good for you... but your software can't use and doesn't need the extra features of NATAMI... So why add complexity (increasing cost and debugging time) to the Amiga Clone by having SuperAGA features?
i do not estimate too that every extra feature introduced to the amiga compatible will narrow the interested user base as long as it doesnt contradict an existing one. it even possibly will become part of some future standard.
The Amiga chipset has already defined its standard... 16 years of unchanged hardware have defined that standard. Any changes are not compatible and never will be.
i sense you see no future for anything connected to amiga either way since you have already placed it in sentimental past and want to conserve this as such. im fine with it.
No, I want effort to be directed in directions that make sense. The Amiga Hardware has no future, it never had a future, it was a product of the 80's computing environment. It solved problems that technology has surpassed and which simply don't exist any more.
We all here have software that we use, for some reson (it doesn't matter why), that needs an Amiga to run... Amiga hadware has a limted life an we need to develop solutions to account for that... CloneA, Minimig and TobiFlex68k (I personally also include AROS in this list) are all vital in preserving the Amiga... but NATAMI seems like feature bloat and without good reason, except as a private hoby project where it is a good learning tool for someone... and N68070 is just a waste of everyone's time, it can never be as powerful or as complex as a modern CPU, and frankly any software that need a 68k does not need anything better than 68030... really...
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tiffers wrote:
@bloodline
I was just quoting what Gunnar/biggun has said in other threads, on other forums.
You (and others here) certainly seem to have much greater knowledge than I, about the specific technologies being discussed.
The technlogies are publically documented, a little bit of time spent of Google and a few Emails to the companies that sell this technology will give you a good idea what is possible and how much it costs... Also there are plenty of people on these forums who work with this stuff everyday who can explain this stuff.
First thing I do when someone makes a claim that seems too good to be true... Google... :-)
I was just trying to show that NatAmi (according to Gunnar) is really placed to be cheaper than the MiniMig (in the CPU + chipset + Coldfire all-in-one configuration) and more compatible than the MiniMig in it's current state, and thus shouldn't be slammed too hard on the 'incompatible and expensive' claims.
But I really can't see:
a) How it can be cheaper than the MiniMIG with the feature bloat of the SuperAGA and even a CPU core on there, we are talking about a HUGE FGA.
b) How it can be as compatible as the MiniMIG, which is already a very mature beta product, and still full of bugs. The added complexity of SuperAGA is going to increase Debug time. The added features of the SuperAGA Chipset will decrease compatibility, unless they are kept away from the AGA emualtion (i.e. moded out)... and then what is the point of them, no existing Amiga software can use them, and if you are writing new software... use a new machine.
c) How can the coldfire really make much sense in this situation... Hell, even I as someone who dislikes the PPC, can see it's a better fit in this situation for wide range of technical and cost reasons...
d) that all the problem which plague the idea of SuperAGA apply to the N68070... Who wants a not very 68k compatible CPU that runs faster than a 68k at several orders of magnitude the cost of an modern CPU?
Sub-$100 NatAmi (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25715&forum=25&start=520&viewmode=flat&order=0#435487) And another (http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=34)
The proof, as I have heard said, will be in the pudding.
tiffers.
That's true... but at the moment we don't have any pudding... just some vague recipies and expensive ingredients...
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All fair points but I don't want to discourage the Natami guys or believe that they should be discouraged.
Look at the argument for the natami as the argument for the DS over the GBA, or the GBA over the GB. Many years between them, lack of straight compatibility (not entirely true of GBA->DS but for the sake of argument...). They're simply upgraded with newer designs but no less '80s/early '90s in their implementations.
Now the Natami with a 68060 or even ColdFire+SuperAGA ASIC (yes yes yes I know they'll never do that one) is not going to be a handheld suitable one. However the design is simply damned interesting and even with a 060 would be faster than the PSone. If they did go for a ColdFire based option then it'd be up within the speed range of a PSP/PS2.
So mostly it's interesting in it's own right, perhaps only as an extended hobbyist project but it's still fascinating and judging by the interest in it there are people who want it.
Andy
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bloodline wrote:
How it can be as compatible as the MiniMIG, which is already a very mature beta product, and still full of bugs. The added complexity of SuperAGA is going to increase Debug time. The added features of the SuperAGA Chipset will decrease compatibility, unless they are kept away from the AGA emualtion (i.e. moded out)... and then what is the point of them, no existing Amiga software can use them, and if you are writing new software... use a new machine.
Personally I see the Natami, Minimig and CloneA as all complementary products. Bloodline it seems to me you are seperating out the Natami from this group because you don't believe it will be as compatible as the Minimig or CloneA.
Whilst I fully expect CloneA to be the most compatible of the three, I don't see where you get the idea that Natami will be less compatible than the Minimig. The Minimig is not cycle exact, neither is the Natami, they are both in the same boat.
Also, whilst I hugely admire Dennis for what he has done, the Natami project has been going for far longer than the Minimig has (Minimig started around 2005, Natami started before 2003 IIRC). Thus, even with the added complexity of the Natami design it is feasible that Thomas Hirsch (designer of the Natami) would have removed most if not all of the bugs in the design.
The cycle exact thing is oversold anyway. If you can run most OCS games on an AGA A1200 (with WHDLoad and other tools) why would you expect the SuperAGA to be a compatibility killer?
Why not wait and see the Natami in action to see how well it runs old Amiga software? Better to do that than claim it won't work without proof.
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@bloodline: please, everybody has realized perfectly already that it doesnt pay to develop anything in any way resembling amiga. just let the people do things they like to do, cause nobodys life really depends on that so we have nothing to loose except of time
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From what I read NATAMI , comes out of nowhere with a home-grown designed CPU and GPU, is supposed to be capable of ray-tracing Quake 3 @ 800x600/truecolor @ 30fps!
OMG - I hope this is not coming from any of the developers... Otherwise this project has just suffered a serious decrease of respect from my side. Complete nonsense.
Well, all in all I'm very sceptical, but I'd love to be surprised. ;-)
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AJCopland wrote:
All fair points but I don't want to discourage the Natami guys or believe that they should be discouraged.
No. I quite agree here. NATAMI is a brilliant hobby research project for the people involved and would be happy to read about it and see it in action... it's the motivations/long term goals that is suspect!
Look at the argument for the natami as the argument for the DS over the GBA, or the GBA over the GB. Many years between them, lack of straight compatibility (not entirely true of GBA->DS but for the sake of argument...). They're simply upgraded with newer designs but no less '80s/early '90s in their implementations.
Come come now!!! You and I both know the GB is a totally bad example! That is a product for which software development never stopped and had a massive installed user base which needed to maintain backward compatibility with old software... The market for which the GB served was never overtaken by other systems, the technology for mobile devices has only in the past few years really started to catch up with desktop...
The Amiga, perhaps 10 years ago, would have had some software that other systems couldn't really match... but now, the very concept of Amiga software for anything other than a small group of hobbyists is laughable.
The GB is not a good argument for "SuperAGA".
Now the Natami with a 68060 or even ColdFire+SuperAGA ASIC (yes yes yes I know they'll never do that one) is not going to be a handheld suitable one. However the design is simply damned interesting and even with a 060 would be faster than the PSone.
Errr.. well, ok... but the PSone is, what, 14 years old... And the NATAMI would be expensive, limited and buggy compared to a cheap off the shelf GFX chip...
If they did go for a ColdFire based option then it'd be up within the speed range of a PSP/PS2.
I'm not really sure how you are making this comparison... I simply don't know where the information for such a conclusion could have come from?
So mostly it's interesting in it's own right, perhaps only as an extended hobbyist project but it's still fascinating and judging by the interest in it there are people who want it.
Which is what the NATAMI is interesting for! I don't understand, why people want to big it up into something it isn't... when it already has a decent reason.
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HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
How it can be as compatible as the MiniMIG, which is already a very mature beta product, and still full of bugs. The added complexity of SuperAGA is going to increase Debug time. The added features of the SuperAGA Chipset will decrease compatibility, unless they are kept away from the AGA emualtion (i.e. moded out)... and then what is the point of them, no existing Amiga software can use them, and if you are writing new software... use a new machine.
Personally I see the Natami, Minimig and CloneA as all complementary products. Bloodline it seems to me you are seperating out the Natami from this group because you don't believe it will be as compatible as the Minimig or CloneA.
No, I separate out the NATAMI because unlike the MiniMIG and the CloneA, the motivation behind it don't make any sense, or at least seem very unrealistic!
Whilst I fully expect CloneA to be the most compatible of the three, I don't see where you get the idea that Natami will be less compatible than the Minimig. The Minimig is not cycle exact, neither is the Natami, they are both in the same boat.
The MiniMIG is just trying to be Amiga compatible... that is the motivation... that is what everyone working on it is trying to achieve. It doesn't matter what the MiniMIG devs have to do, they can do anything to improve the compatibility.
NATAMI seems to have some crazy idea about making a better Amiga, for no discernible reason...
Also, whilst I hugely admire Dennis for what he has done, the Natami project has been going for far longer than the Minimig has (Minimig started around 2005, Natami started before 2003 IIRC). Thus, even with the added complexity of the Natami design it is feasible that Thomas Hirsch (designer of the Natami) would have removed most if not all of the bugs in the design.
So Dennis got the MiniMIG from idea to shipping product in 2 years... and I understand that he took a break between finishing the design and releasing it... and the NATAMI has been in process for 5 years and is not even out of the development phase... does that not start alarm bells ringing?
The cycle exact thing is oversold anyway. If you can run most OCS games on an AGA A1200 (with WHDLoad and other tools) why would you expect the SuperAGA to be a compatibility killer?
Every extra feature takes time and silicon away from debugging the standard AGA features... Plus somethings I have read about the "Super" features would be incompatible by design... anyway that isn't the point, why bother with these new features, no existing software can use them!
Why not wait and see the Natami in action to see how well it runs old Amiga software? Better to do that than claim it won't work without proof.
I don't care how well it works, I just don't understand the project motivations or perhaps really I don't understand what benefits this has over MiniMIG and CloneA as a commercial product... but I can see disadvantages...
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wawrzon wrote:
@bloodline: please, everybody has realized perfectly already that it doesnt pay to develop anything in any way resembling amiga.
Actually it does... the MiniMIG proved that. The motivations behind the MiniMIG were clearly defined and well thought out.
just let the people do things they like to do, cause nobodys life really depends on that so we have nothing to loose except of time
I would be nice if it didn't turn the Amiga name into even more of a joke in the process...
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I state unequivocally; that probably only 1% of the people here realize the true power of the 1985 Amiga computer!!!!
And it's those one percent (who may remain unnamed*), who understand that, THAT multiplied by 100 is MINDSHATTERING!
So, they will get the NatAmi60.
EOL.
* DoomMaster is one who shall not remain unnamed. :laughing:
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Atheist wrote:
I state unequivocally; that probably only 1% of the people here realize the true power of the 1985 Amiga computer!!!!
And it's those one percent (who may remain unnamed*), who understand that, THAT multiplied by 100 is MINDSHATTERING!
So, they will get the NatAmi60.
EOL.
* DoomMaster is one who shall not remain unnamed. :laughing:
Well done... I guess your remedial tutors are very proud of you for learning how to use a keyboard..
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@Atheist
You need a reality check, mate. The Amiga is technically light years behind. The Natami has nice specs, but its place in time would still be somewhere around year 2001 or so.
By the way, about getting a NatAmi60...don't count on it. No matter how much you are able to pay. A dev machine sold to people who can't contribute by hitting the metal and actually fixing bugs might as well be thrown away.
I suggest you go and buy yourself an Intel quad-core, some SATA RAID, couple of SLI cards and try a couple of PC games. Try not to wet yourself.
@The rest
Come on guys, what could have been a great, down to earth technical discussion has just been a fight about what non-sense Natami could be. Why care so much about backwards compatibility anyway? There are already other solutions such as genuine hardware and emulation. I don't think there's need for another Amiga clone. It would mean staying where we are.
Why so much hate and anger towards this project? Is it fear of change? I really think Natami is a very interesting proposal. This is some new creativity for god's sake! For once someone is not only trying to replicate old technology but thinking of moving it forward! Whether they succeed or not, well, it still is a nice try. And no matter whether the project has taken 5 years already, so what? Did this guy steal any of your time by taking initiative to do something creative with his own time?
I, for one was dreaming of filling the remaining space in my minimig's FPGA with some additional funky hardware for cool demo effects and stuff. You know, doing something creative in hardware. Now, if I ever were to do it, I guess it would be best to keep it to myself, tell no one and release nothing, lest I be a judged insane and my motivations questioned...
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bloodline wrote:
No. I quite agree here. NATAMI is a brilliant hobby research project for the people involved and would be happy to read about it and see it in action... it's the motivations/long term goals that is suspect!
Yeah the long term dreaming is what I'm reading a lot of but honestly I don't think it's from the developers too much. Occassionally Gunnar goes off on one but if he wasn't having those flights of fancy in public then he'd be having them in private :-D how can you resist dreaming about "what-could-be" when you're helping to make something.
Come come now!!! You and I both know the GB is a totally bad example! That is a product for which software development never stopped and had a massive installed user base which needed to maintain backward compatibility with old software... The market for which the GB served was never overtaken by other systems, the technology for mobile devices has only in the past few years really started to catch up with desktop...
The Amiga, perhaps 10 years ago, would have had some software that other systems couldn't really match... but now, the very concept of Amiga software for anything other than a small group of hobbyists is laughable.
The GB is not a good argument for "SuperAGA".
Ah ha not so fast, GB->GBA is a marvellous argument (or we wouldn't be having on :lol:) because I don't care about the actual success of the platform only the hardware differences :-P
You see we're discussing really two overlapping things, the market for something with the hardware and design of something.
If we compare the GB to the A500, the GBA to the A1200 then think of the Natami as the DS-that-never-was. That's all that some of us fanboys want really to see a sort of what-could-have-been, a continuiation of the series...
..maybe that's a better analogy actually, think of it like a TV series that gets cut halfway through, its still got a fanbase so after a few years another production company picks up the right and they make the rest of them. Now they can either keep the original staff that everyones familiar with (Natami-MiniMig-CloneA) or they can hire new actors to play the same roles :-o
Errr.. well, ok... but the PSone is, what, 14 years old... And the NATAMI would be expensive, limited and buggy compared to a cheap off the shelf GFX chip...
Yeah actually I'd like it if they DID put in an extra off-the-shelf GFX chip on there too. My point about the PSone was that its a reasonable benchmark to surpass. Slow 33Mhz CPU, weak 3D chip (by todays standards) but a potent machine when used right. Even an A1200 with a 3D chip would have given it a PSone a run for it's money at the time if commodore had ANY idea that 3D was coming.
See below...
If they did go for a ColdFire based option then it'd be up within the speed range of a PSP/PS2.
I'm not really sure how you are making this comparison... I simply don't know where the information for such a conclusion could have come from?
I code for the PSP and PS2 so know them fairly well. The PS2 would be harder to surpass but the PSP would be relatively trivial for a CF based machine at 300Mhz to 400Mhz.
Thing is even a 68060 60Mhz based machine with good memory access (something that particularly hobbles the PSP) would get close to PSP standards if they'd give it a basic 3D GFX chip, leave the 2d stuff to the AGA/SuperAGA side. They'd only have to give it something with multi-texturing support to improve on the performance of the PSP rendering.
Hmm gone off on a tangent, damn, was beta for our game today so just got home :-D
All of the above is trying to say that you don't have to do much to get a hobby platform upto older-gen's console power and that's only been the Natami's stated goal, to give the Amiga (AGA) chipset a bit of a boost up whilst maintaining as much compatibility as possible.
Which is what the NATAMI is interesting for! I don't understand, why people want to big it up into something it isn't... when it already has a decent reason.
Agreed, what they're saying though for the NatAmi with 68060 isn't that it's going to be the greatest thing ever.
Hell even getting the Natami upto even the level of the PSone would be an upgrade, after all 14 year old technology is better than 16 year old (A1200==1992!) technology :-D
Andy
PS: sorry I'm knackered so the above is all confused, I'm gonna go watch anime and get some sleep!
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@bloodline
No, I separate out the NATAMI because unlike the MiniMIG and the CloneA, the motivation behind it don't make any sense, or at least seem very unrealistic!
The motivation is making something cool and selling it to a few like-minded people who won't be able to build one themselves. I don't understand why you think there's a difference between the motivation behind the MiniMig and that behind the NatAmi. The CloneA *is* different - Jens wants to basically clone the old Amiga chips and sell them by the million. Dennis and Thomas are doing it for fun. Don't be misled by them wanting to make a few bucks on the side, I never got the impression from them that they're out to do anything other than inject a bit of life back into the Amiga hobby.
Every extra feature takes time and silicon away from debugging the standard AGA features... Plus somethings I have read about the "Super" features would be incompatible by design... anyway that isn't the point, why bother with these new features, no existing software can use them!
According to Gunnar, the "super" features have been designed to be backwards compatible. Presumably they did this the same way you can add A1200 style clock ports in a compatible manner to a C64, ie by using memory addresses tagged as "future expansion" in the hardware docs. Since CBM's no more, it's safe to use those. I agree that no existing software makes use of the new features, but again I point you at the C64. There's a very cool game called "metal dust", that won't run on a stock C64 - it requires a SuperCPU expansion that was released after CBM went under. The SuperCPU is an accelerator that adds a new, partially incompatible CPU (undocumented opcodes don't work and it's not cycle exact) to a C64, so it's a significant hardware change. People will write new software for an old platform.
I don't care how well it works, I just don't understand the project motivations or perhaps really I don't understand what benefits this has over MiniMIG and CloneA as a commercial product... but I can see disadvantages...
You see the NatAmi as a commercial project that follows the normal rules of business, and it that sense it's insane. But then again, the MiniMig is also insane from a commercial point of view. How many have been sold so far? I'd be very surprised if the total number of units "out there" breaks three digits. Think of the NatAmi as the A4000 to the MiniMig's A500 and it will make a lot more sense.
I can understand your confusion though, there are a few posters here, at aw.net and at natami.net who are making some pretty outrageous claims about what the hardware can and can't do. The NatAmi team consists of two people right now: Thomas and Gunnar, and their claims are a lot more scaled back. Anything said by anyone else is probably suspect.
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i admire efforts like minimig while they do not improve any technical possibilities of amiga, so i could use a cheap a500 instead. thats why a do not need a minimig but i would maybe need a natabi if it would ever become reality. period
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Features/benefits of AOS on NatAmi over other JUNK:
1. 4 second boot up (Could be 1 second, if it weren't for memory check and loading of FPGA.)
2. AOS anywhere from 1.3 being 700 K to AOS3.9 being 2.6 Megs (I'm talking copying whole OS to ram. What REALLY do those other OSs do that needs 450 Megs of code and 40 Megs of ram?????? Notepad on XP is 64 K, and who knows what support files it needs to be able to run?)
3. Ram: disk
4. Rad: disks (even reboot off of rad:. Yeah, seems like the one above is the same, but NO, these are two DISTINCT features over and above what linux/MacOSX and wind up your pants 95/98(SE)/2000ME/xp/vista offer.)
5. Draggable screens (This BLEW MY MIND when I first saw it in 1988.)
6. Multiple resolutions simultaneously displayed from one vertical line to the next vertical line (amazing ability!!! This combined with #5, I needed changing pants!)
7. Programming wise, can easily bypass OS if you wish
8. No login carp
9. No MP
10. No swap file
11. No registry
12. No DLLs
13. Programs can run from ANY directory/device, unless hard
coded to dissuade you from being able to (I had only THREE sub directories in the root of my Amiga 2000 hard drive, think it was S: and maybe Libs: and one more sub dir with all the other AOS1.3.3 directories in it.)
14. Programs are SMALL and I mean REALLY small.... Try starting a program on a cell phone, why's it take 6 seconds to load the damn things!!?!?! Oh, compressed you say? AND IF I should happen to have a 2 Gig SD memory card is there ANY way I the "master" of the device can FORCE it to be put onto the memory card in uncompressed format, so that I (the MASTER) can load the app/game in ONE second? NooooOOOOOoooooo!!!!!
15. Speaking of small, what's with the graphics drivers being in the 20 Megs range? There is no actual way of KNOWING how big these drivers are, and how much ram they take up as everything is secreted away from the users. Point is, that was one of the keys of AOS working so MAGICALLY. There wasn't 30 Megs of graphics kaka, and yet it achieved basically audio/visual miracles!!!
16. NatAmi60's physical power is near the PS2 level, BUT it's TOTALLY OPEN to the USER!!!!! How HARD was it for the game developers to achieve the real benefits of the Emotion Engine???? It only took TWO YEARS before games using it's full potential were out (by the BIGGEST developers who had dev kits upto 1.5 years before the console was even released!!!!). Toooooo complex!
17. With all the power down/energy conserving "AI" measures, I think that using the new CPUs and devices produces unpredictable results (this applies to #10, swap files too).
18. The Mac is now relegated to "appliance".
19. Instant off! (Why aren't cell phones instant off??!?!?!?!?!??!)
Until the "Modern, up-to-date, be all/end all super pooper compooters" can do these (19) things, they aren't really what I'd call a "PERSONAL COMPUTER"......
P.S. Doesn't anything just turn ON and OFF anymore???
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bloodline wrote:
No, I separate out the NATAMI because unlike the MiniMIG and the CloneA, the motivation behind it don't make any sense, or at least seem very unrealistic!
The motivation is unrealistic/suspect? The ideas behind the commercialisation of the Natami only started recently (probably around the time bbrv offered to help with getting it running Coldfire, which we know now was not the path to take), and you've said yourself that you see it as an interesting hobby project, yet the motivation behind the Natami is suspect?
Are you questioning Thomas Hirsch's motives or the motives of the other people interested in the Natami?
The Natami doesn't need to be flying off the shelves in shops to be a success, maybe you think it does? Cue Garth:
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x171/indatrenches/Reebok.jpg)
"It's like people only do these things because they can get paid. And that's just really sad."
The MiniMIG is just trying to be Amiga compatible... that is the motivation... that is what everyone working on it is trying to achieve. It doesn't matter what the MiniMIG devs have to do, they can do anything to improve the compatibility.
The Minimig is open source, any one can build what they like with it. If I had the time (and skill) to implement the AAA chipset on the Minimig your argument falls apart, as the AAA is Amiga technology and something that (the majority of) Minimig fans would not shun.
NATAMI seems to have some crazy idea about making a better Amiga, for no discernible reason...
Why is that such a bad idea? If a company were releasing the Natami I would probably class them as 'brave', it doesn't have enough mass appeal for today's market, but to those who are interested in it it is a huge deal, and providing Amiga developers embrace it too it could be a very interesting retro platform for a good number of computer fans from different computing 'cults'.
So Dennis got the MiniMIG from idea to shipping product in 2 years... and I understand that he took a break between finishing the design and releasing it... and the NATAMI has been in process for 5 years and is not even out of the development phase... does that not start alarm bells ringing?
You're clutching at straws here, why would that bother me? It's clear that the Natami consists of a more complex design than the Minimig, more complexity = longer development time.
Every extra feature takes time and silicon away from debugging the standard AGA features... Plus somethings I have read about the "Super" features would be incompatible by design... anyway that isn't the point, why bother with these new features, no existing software can use them!
According to the Natami team the development process for SuperAGA is close to complete, including AGA compatibility. I'm so glad that this chipset was developed (largely) in secret so we didn't have to go through the painful 'will they let us down' phase. Of course the Natami60 hasn't been released yet, but I'm confident we'll see some progress on that soon. Yes the SuperAGA features are mostly useful for new software development, but there may be one or two features I've heard of that will be of use to standard Amiga software.
I don't care how well it works, I just don't understand the project motivations or perhaps really I don't understand what benefits this has over MiniMIG and CloneA as a commercial product... but I can see disadvantages...
Your argument is baffling. Any product sold, whether that be to Amiga hobbyists or any other group, is a commercial product. The Minimig (in its preassembled form) is a commercial product, it is selling to those who are interested in it, the Natami will do the same. If someone is willing to pay money for something then it has the potential to be a commercial product. Some of us (myself included) may get a little carried away with dreaming what the Natami could do, but that doesn't give you an excuse to knock the technology, which is the issue at hand here.
If the SuperAGA was shown to be highly compatible with AGA, became open sourced, and was developed for a future Minimig revision, would you still shun it then?
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In point #16, to make it clear, it took ~1.5 years before the PlayStaion 2's were for sale, to 2 years AFTER they were buyable to achieve full throttle performance wise.
3 and a half years TOTAL.
Also, I've played very few games on it, but the price of all that eyecandy seemed to make games choppy, "complete this (small) section, load next....." (Played only a few of the initial releases.)
P.S. I'm sure there are more than 19 points of contention, too. Would take micro soft (sic) 50 billion dollars to FIX these nagging details.
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AJCopland wrote:
Yeah actually I'd like it if they DID put in an extra off-the-shelf GFX chip on there too. My point about the PSone was that its a reasonable benchmark to surpass. Slow 33Mhz CPU, weak 3D chip (by todays standards) but a potent machine when used right. Even an A1200 with a 3D chip would have given it a PSone a run for it's money at the time if commodore had ANY idea that 3D was coming.
FYI, Gunnar has added a 3D core to the SuperAGA chipset.
@Atheist
Dude, you've been posting variations of that list for a while now, it's getting really tiring. I like you're enthusiasm, just try to direct it in a more positive direction. Don't bother with the silly Windows/AmigaOS comparisons, they are not doing you any favours.
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HenryCase wrote:
bloodline wrote:
No, I separate out the NATAMI because unlike the MiniMIG and the CloneA, the motivation behind it don't make any sense, or at least seem very unrealistic!
The motivation is unrealistic/suspect? The ideas behind the commercialisation of the Natami only started recently (probably around the time bbrv offered to help with getting it running Coldfire, which we know now was not the path to take), and you've said yourself that you see it as an interesting hobby project, yet the motivation behind the Natami is suspect?
Are you questioning Thomas Hirsch's motives or the motives of the other people interested in the Natami?
The motives of the others around the project. I've not had any contact with the devs, but there are suggestions on the main project site that are cause for concern!
The Natami doesn't need to be flying off the shelves in shops to be a success, maybe you think it does? Cue Garth:
"It's like people only do these things because they can get paid. And that's just really sad."
The MiniMIG is just trying to be Amiga compatible... that is the motivation... that is what everyone working on it is trying to achieve. It doesn't matter what the MiniMIG devs have to do, they can do anything to improve the compatibility.
The Minimig is open source, any one can build what they like with it. If I had the time (and skill) to implement the AAA chipset on the Minimig your argument falls apart, as the AAA is Amiga technology and something that (the majority of) Minimig fans would not shun.
AAA never worked. No one will ever know what AAA would have been like or even how it would have worked if C= had ever got it to work.
NATAMI seems to have some crazy idea about making a better Amiga, for no discernible reason...
Why is that such a bad idea? If a company were releasing the Natami I would probably class them as 'brave', it doesn't have enough mass appeal for today's market, but to those who are interested in it it is a huge deal, and providing Amiga developers embrace it too it could be a very interesting retro platform for a good number of computer fans from different computing 'cults'.
It's fine, but it's not a commercial idea. It's a hobby idea, it's not $20 ASICs and $100 dev boards... it is these claims that irritate me.
So Dennis got the MiniMIG from idea to shipping product in 2 years... and I understand that he took a break between finishing the design and releasing it... and the NATAMI has been in process for 5 years and is not even out of the development phase... does that not start alarm bells ringing?
You're clutching at straws here, why would that bother me? It's clear that the Natami consists of a more complex design than the Minimig, more complexity = longer development time.
The more complex the design the more worried I get... I never make a project more complex than it has to be to achieve the required task! If the NATAMI is a great AGA clone and runs AGA software really well, but is going to take 20 years to develop... just because of extra feature that 98.4% of the time simply won't be used, then the project has little value!
Every extra feature takes time and silicon away from debugging the standard AGA features... Plus somethings I have read about the "Super" features would be incompatible by design... anyway that isn't the point, why bother with these new features, no existing software can use them!
According to the Natami team the development process for SuperAGA is close to complete, including AGA compatibility.
What does that mean? Feature compete? Alpha stage, beta phase... RC?!?! People are getting excited based on little information...
I'm so glad that this chipset was developed (largely) in secret so we didn't have to go through the painful 'will they let us down' phase. Of course the Natami60 hasn't been released yet, but I'm confident we'll see some progress on that soon.
Yes, that word that has plagued the Amiga for the past 15 years... Soon...
Yes the SuperAGA features are mostly useful for new software development, but there may be one or two features I've heard of that will be of use to standard Amiga software.
And the crux of my concern... why waste all that dev time and silicon for one or two features...
I don't care how well it works, I just don't understand the project motivations or perhaps really I don't understand what benefits this has over MiniMIG and CloneA as a commercial product... but I can see disadvantages...
You're argument is baffling.
Then I'm not explaining myself clearly... where does my argument fall down?
Any product sold, whether that be to Amiga hobbyists or any other group, is a commercial product.
The Minimig (in its preassembled form) is a commercial product, it is selling to those who are interested in it, the Natami will do the same. If someone is willing to pay money for something then it has the potential to be a commercial product. Some of us (myself included) may get a little carried away with dreaming what the Natami could do, but that doesn't give you an excuse to knock the technology, which is the issue at hand here.
As a hobby project, the price doesn't really matter, the time scales don't matter, protecting the IP doesn't matter (so release the source code), Success doesn't matter... Open the project up let everyone have a play and learn... is any of this true with NATAMI?
If the SuperAGA was shown to be highly compatible with AGA, became open sourced, and was developed for a future Minimig revision, would you still shun it then?
No of course not. I would love a cheap Replacement board for my A1200, based around an FPGA... But nothing I've read or heard about the NATAMI project suggests that it will offer me this.
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HenryCase wrote:
@Atheist
Dude, you've been posting variations of that list for a while now, it's getting really tiring. I like you're enthusiasm, just try to direct it in a more positive direction. Don't bother with the silly Windows/AmigaOS comparisons, they are not doing you any favours.
Hi HenryCase,
People wonder where I'm coming from, that's why I reposted.
These are not just agitating that I can't have them on windows/linus/OSX, but really make those OSs impossible for at least me to use.
Thought I wouldn't have to make that list, and/or repeat it to Amiga users.
JUST the CPU has moved from a 7.16 MHz sixteen/thirty two bit design to 3.0 GHZ with 2 Megs of L2 cache, and yet it's MORE FRUSTRATING to use it! It's too slow! (I only have ever had this 1 core 2.26 GHz P IV with 1 Gig ram. No exp. with 2 or 4 cores yet.)
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Atheist wrote:
JUST the CPU has moved from a 7.16 MHz sixteen/thirty two bit design to 3.0 GHZ with 2 Megs of L2 cache, and yet it's MORE FRUSTRATING to use it! It's too slow! (I only have ever had this 1 core 2.26 GHz P IV with 1 Gig ram. No exp. with 2 or 4 cores yet.)
Unfortunately you've not been able to advance at the same rate as Technology.
I find my A500 frustrating to use compared to my MacBook Pro...
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@bloodline
AAA never worked. No one will ever know what AAA would have been like or even how it would have worked if C= had ever got it to work.
...and yet there would still be interest in it if it was finished (as close as possible to the design specs) for the Minimig. I don't see that happening, especially now we have SuperAGA, but my point is that those involved in open source development are free to choose the direction they take, you shouldn't dictate to people what they should and shouldn't want to see.
It's fine, but it's not a commercial idea. It's a hobby idea, it's not $20 ASICs and $100 dev boards... it is these claims that irritate me.
Those are the claims made with dream mode:on, everyone knows they are very ambitious goals, but the project would be a success even if we don't reach the pricing goals (as long as the Natami60 is released).
The more complex the design the more worried I get... I never make a project more complex than it has to be to achieve the required task! If the NATAMI is a great AGA clone and runs AGA software really well, but is going to take 20 years to develop... just because of extra feature that 98.4% of the time simply won't be used, then the project has little value!
According to the Natami devs the SuperAGA development period is close to completion (I have even seen it described as complete). No 20 year wait, so no problem here.
What does that mean? Feature compete? Alpha stage, beta phase... RC?!?! People are getting excited based on little information...
According to the devs the SuperAGA is complete enough for them to start designing the Natam60 dev boards, make of that what you will.
Yes, that word that has plagued the Amiga for the past 15 years... Soon...
You don't seem that interested in the Natami, so why worry about how long it takes to complete?
And the crux of my concern... why waste all that dev time and silicon for one or two features...
You misunderstand me, but that's okay as I didn't really elaborate on this point. As I said most of the SuperAGA functions will support new software, but let's take a look at one feature that is being considered that would help all Amiga software, which is the integration of Scale2x support into the hardware. You can read about Scale2x here:
http://scale2x.sourceforge.net/
Here's the discussion from the Natami forums:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=214
As a hobby project, the price doesn't really matter, the time scales don't matter, protecting the IP doesn't matter (so release the source code), Success doesn't matter... Open the project up let everyone have a play and learn... is any of this true with NATAMI?
The Natami team aren't fully against open sourcing the work they've done, it's just that they want to keep their options open at this stage, which is sensible I think. You can read a discussion about open sourcing Natami here:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=486
No of course not. I would love a cheap Replacement board for my A1200, based around an FPGA... But nothing I've read or heard about the NATAMI project suggests that it will offer me this.
So your main objection to the Natami is the potential cost, right?
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@HenryCase
Cue Garth:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
awesome :-D
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HenryCase wrote:
@bloodline
AAA never worked. No one will ever know what AAA would have been like or even how it would have worked if C= had ever got it to work.
...and yet there would still be interest in it if it was finished (as close as possible to the design specs) for the Minimig.
We have all wondered what it would be like... but I see my friend's Machine with the latest 9800GX2 Nvidia GFX card on the latest Quad Core Intel CPU... (a system that cost less to put together than An A500 + 1 Meg RAM and HD cost in 1990) and I simply can't get excited about 16 year old technology..
I don't see that happening, especially now we have SuperAGA, but my point is that those involved in open source development are free to choose the direction they take, you shouldn't dictate to people what they should and shouldn't want to see.
Everyone here, the old timers at least will know my views of OpenSource... Why we even have closed source hardware/software in the Amiga community is a mystery to me...
It's fine, but it's not a commercial idea. It's a hobby idea, it's not $20 ASICs and $100 dev boards... it is these claims that irritate me.
Those are the claims made with dream mode:on, everyone knows they are very ambitious goals, but the project would be a success even if we don't reach the pricing goals (as long as the Natami60 is released).
They are not ambitious claims, they are false claims! and they make a joke out of the Amiga and the NATAMI project.
The more complex the design the more worried I get... I never make a project more complex than it has to be to achieve the required task! If the NATAMI is a great AGA clone and runs AGA software really well, but is going to take 20 years to develop... just because of extra feature that 98.4% of the time simply won't be used, then the project has little value!
According to the Natami devs the SuperAGA development period is close to completion (I have even seen it described as complete). No 20 year wait, so no problem here.
My use of 20 years was an obvious exaggeration to show my point! Every second longer than needed is a second wasted.
What does that mean? Feature compete? Alpha stage, beta phase... RC?!?! People are getting excited based on little information...
According to the devs the SuperAGA is complete enough for them to start designing the Natam60 dev boards, make of that what you will.
That suggests that pin routing is at least done... But given that the IO is pretty simple that can be decided quite early on...
Yes, that word that has plagued the Amiga for the past 15 years... Soon...
You don't seem that interested in the Natami, so why worry about how long it takes to complete?
If it is going to give me a cheap board to replace my A1200... then I want it yesterday...
And the crux of my concern... why waste all that dev time and silicon for one or two features...
You misunderstand me, but that's okay as I didn't really elaborate on this point. As I said most of the SuperAGA functions will support new software, but let's take a look at one feature that is being considered that would help all Amiga sofware, which is the integration of Scale2x support into the hardware. You can read about Scale2x here:
http://scale2x.sourceforge.net/
Here's the discussion from the Natami forums:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=214
Ugh... This really offers nothing :-(
And proves my point for a commercial project...
As a hobby project, the price doesn't really matter, the time scales don't matter, protecting the IP doesn't matter (so release the source code), Success doesn't matter... Open the project up let everyone have a play and learn... is any of this true with NATAMI?
The Natami team aren't fully against open sourcing the work they've done, it's just that they want to keep their options open at this stage, which is sensible I think. You can read a discussion about open sourcing Natami here:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=486
Hmmm, Sensible to keep their option open... but not sensible enough to avoid associating with the people who make outrageous claims...
No of course not. I would love a cheap Replacement board for my A1200, based around an FPGA... But nothing I've read or heard about the NATAMI project suggests that it will offer me this.
So your main objection to the Natami is the potential cost, right?
No, it's the weirdoes who are make this project a joke.
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HenryCase wrote:
AJCopland wrote:
Yeah actually I'd like it if they DID put in an extra off-the-shelf GFX chip on there too.
FYI, Gunnar has added a 3D core to the SuperAGA chipset.
I wonder what it's like, I found this thread (http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=3¬e=443) but it just made me want to headbutt the desk in frustration at these people until my brain leaks out of my eyesockets nuuuuuurgh. :crazy:
If I could actually stick my oar in I'd say that one of the most annoying features of working on the PSP, not PS2, was that you can only do single pass texturing. I know it sounds strange but even just doing two textures in a single pass would have almost doubled our framerate for a lot of titles. Without it we had to resort to multipass (redrawing the scene with different textures and blend modes) which of course means drawing every triangle twice for a single frame.
Ah well anyway we'll see.
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HenryCase wrote:
FYI, Gunnar has added a 3D core to the SuperAGA chipset.
I wonder who this guy is. Either he's the best novice HDL programmer in the world. He used to work in a hardware company which developed 2D and 3D HDL and borrowed upon his knowledge from projects gone by.
Or it's bollox.
Have you any idea how long it takes to develop a rasteriser from scratch?? Add in filtered texture mapping and shading and Z-clipping and you are talking a good years worth of research and work.
I know, designing hardware 3D accelerators was my first job.
It's certainly not a two week task working evenings and weekends.
HenryCase wrote:
According to the Natami devs the SuperAGA development period is close to completion (I have even seen it described as complete). No 20 year wait, so no problem here.
You are far too trusting. If they say complete they mean features implemented... they dont mean features functioning correctly or accurately. If they do, I take my hat off to them.
HenryCase wrote:
let's take a look at one feature that is being considered that would help all Amiga software, which is the integration of Scale2x support into the hardware.
Doesn't look like it's being considered to me. A filter of that complexity would take up a lot of room in an FPGA and require much higher RAM bandwidth.
Plus scale2x sucks ass :-) If you were going to implement an output filter there are much better ones to choose.
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@bloodline
We have all wondered what it would be like... but I see my friend's Machine with the latest 9800GX2 Nvidia GFX card on the latest Quad Core Intel CPU... (a system that cost less to put together than An A500 + 1 Meg RAM and HD cost in 1990) and I simply can't get excited about 16 year old technology..
Fair enough. However there are some people who still enjoy coding for classic Amigas, do you understand why they might be excited about the Natami?
Everyone here, the old timers at least will know my views of OpenSource... Why we even have closed source hardware/software in the Amiga community is a mystery to me...
I know that you are a fan of AROS, I was certainly not questioning your belief in open source, my point was geared around the statement you made about Minimig only being a pure classic Amiga clone while, thanks to the power of open source, it can be anything the devs want it to be.
They are not ambitious claims, they are false claims! and they make a joke out of the Amiga and the NATAMI project.
They are not false claims, they are unlikely claims. Let's say I won the lottery on the weekend, I'd probably fund a Natami ASIC. The chances of me winning the lottery are slim, but fingers crossed eh! The dev boards were described as being 'close to A1 prices', don't know where you got that $100 figure from. In any case, the advances in semiconductor fabrication has meant that prices of FPGAs are falling (while processing power increases). In 2-3 years maybe we will be able to buy an FPGA capable of running SuperAGA for around $100?
My use of 20 years was an obvious exaggeration to show my point! Every second longer than needed is a second wasted.
Translation: Every second spent developing features I do not want is a second wasted.
No, it's the weirdoes who are make this project a joke.
What does that matter, either you like the idea of the Natami (beefed up classic Amiga hardware) or you don't. I don't mind if you think of me as a weirdo, I know I've done more than most to keep this project from falling foul to crazy hype, and to misplaced negativity.
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HenryCase wrote:
@bloodline
We have all wondered what it would be like... but I see my friend's Machine with the latest 9800GX2 Nvidia GFX card on the latest Quad Core Intel CPU... (a system that cost less to put together than An A500 + 1 Meg RAM and HD cost in 1990) and I simply can't get excited about 16 year old technology..
Fair enough. However there are some people who still enjoy coding for classic Amigas, do you understand why they might be excited about the Natami?
I would say that half of my time spent coding on the Amiga was spent pouring over technical books and other people's source code trying to figure out how to overcome the limitations of the hardware...
I remember once writing a game that like lemmings needed lots of little animated characters... But the Blitter code I was using clipped to the 20 pixels wide of the animated characters... which was horribly slow (since Every BOB operation took at least 3 blits)... so to try and up the frame rate, I used a dual playfield, display (which halved my background colour palette), and then all animated object were drawn to the front playfield and since that was transparent I only needed one blit and one clear... then I increased the bitting to width to 32bits, which was much faster than 20bits...
Anyway... I took ages to figure all this out... now all this crap doesn't matter on modern hardware... I can pretty much do what I want... With OpenGL almost everything about the display is handled in hardware...
Do I want to return to those days... not really...
Everyone here, the old timers at least will know my views of OpenSource... Why we even have closed source hardware/software in the Amiga community is a mystery to me...
I know that you are a fan of AROS,
To say the least :-)
I was certainly not questioning your belief in open source, my point was geared around the statement you made about Minimig only being a pure classic Amiga clone while, thanks to the power of open source, it can be anything the devs want it to be.
NATAMI isn't opensource... so this is a moot point...
They are not ambitious claims, they are false claims! and they make a joke out of the Amiga and the NATAMI project.
They are not false claims, they are unlikely claims.
I refer back to my German Supermodel... False or unlikely? I don't think it really matters... do you?
Let's say I won the lottery on the weekend, I'd probably fund a Natami ASIC.
You could probably fund the first stages of the HDL to ASIC work... And that assuming the FPGA version has been bug fixed... Or would you fund the bug fix work? I doubt there is a lottery big enough for you to do what you want to do... :-(
The chances of me winning the lottery are slim, but fingers crossed eh!
Indeed!
The dev boards were described as being 'close to A1 prices', don't know where you got that $100 figure from.
Just quoting from the thread... The A1 was horribly over priced anyway, and far beyond anything reasonable.
In any case, the advances in semiconductor fabrication has meant that prices of FPGAs are falling (while processing power increases). In 2-3 years maybe we will be able to buy an FPGA capable of running SuperAGA for around $100?
I wonder how many of us will be around in 3 years... I wonder where technology will be in 3 years... I never imagined anything as amazing as the iPhone 3 years ago...
My use of 20 years was an obvious exaggeration to show my point! Every second longer than needed is a second wasted.
Translation: Every second spent developing features I do not want is a second wasted.
Features not "needed" is time wasted, the only features "needed" are those to run Amiga software.
No, it's the weirdoes who are make this project a joke.
What does that matter, either you like the idea of the Natami (beefed up classic Amiga hardware) or you don't. I don't mind if you think of me as a weirdo, I know I've done more than most to keep this project from falling foul to crazy hype, and to misplaced negativity.
Want to avoid negativity? Keep it real :-)
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bloodline wrote:
Want to avoid negativity? Keep it real :-)
I will if you will. :-P
Although there is more I'd like to discuss about the Natami, I think it's best I bow out of this discussion to avoid further damage to the Natami project. Best wishes to everyone, may you all get the German Supermodel of your dreams (baggsy Heidi Klum ;-) ).
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Yes, new cards are incredible, but I'd still like to see multiple monicas and lisas on a board.
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>Newton was a highly respected scientist... never ridiculed... Do you even know history?
Have you read all the books ever written on Newton??? I have read Galileo and Newton being ridiculed. I need only one instance to disprove your claim. Use the scientific method yourself before you preach it to others.
You are selfish and rude individual; if it does not fit into your needs, it has no use. If you have not read it, it's wrong. I wasn't talking to you. I already had a hard time trying to make you understand the difference between a timer and a cpu clock.
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>I'm simply trying to show people the flaws in their thinking.
You try to find faults with people or things even if you don't understand them. Because you must know since you read so many books. There's no chance that you misunderstood.
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>You (and others here) certainly seem to have much greater knowledge than I, about the specific technologies being discussed.
Don't be mislead. Someone may fantasize and hope it comes true, but it's worse to be living in a fantasy thinking it's reality. It's much harder to come out of that state of mind.
Any computer that let's you do cycle exact manipulation of registers and I/O ports has a place in real-time systems. Modern OSes like Windows XP/Vista machines were never meant for real-time applications. If you can get away with doing it with an Amiga or a variant, it has something unique that modern systems don't offer. As I stated, people in PC-realm stress more than CPU clock speed so timing accuracy is not significant for them as it might be for others.
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>Although there is more I'd like to discuss about the Natami, I think it's best I bow out of this discussion to avoid further damage to the Natami project.
His speculations won't damage anyone's Amiga projects. He speaks of the scientific method but he himself just makes claims that are obviously wrong (perhaps random Googling is superior for him than the scientific method). I state that it's a good choice to pick the Amiga @7.16 Mhz over the Atari ST @8Mhz and look at this argument:
>I doubt even 1% of the people who bought computers in the 80s even know what speed their CPU was... or even that CPUs had speed ratings.
WRONG.
>You bought the computer that had the most software, or the one that had the better software...
WRONG.
Who in their right minds would accept such false claims? I bought the Amiga because of it's hardware not because of the software.
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amigaksi wrote:
>Although there is more I'd like to discuss about the Natami, I think it's best I bow out of this discussion to avoid further damage to the Natami project.
His speculations won't damage anyone's Amiga projects. He speaks of the scientific method but he himself just makes claims that are obviously wrong (perhaps random Googling is superior for him than the scientific method). I state that it's a good choice to pick the Amiga @7.16 Mhz over the Atari ST @8Mhz and look at this argument:
>I doubt even 1% of the people who bought computers in the 80s even know what speed their CPU was... or even that CPUs had speed ratings.
WRONG.
>You bought the computer that had the most software, or the one that had the better software...
WRONG.
Who in their right minds would accept such false claims? I bought the Amiga because of it's hardware not because of the software.
If you are going to dispute some one else's generalized statements with "WRONG", at least pick ones that you can prove are false. I don't happen to agree with the 1% statement, but doubt that anyone can prove it right or wrong. You are making it a big deal and implying that since you believe that those two statements are false, then all of his other assertions must also be false. That is not a logical assertion either, you are just making yourself look equally weak minded to make those kind of statements, so stick to disputing things that you can actually prove to be false or incorrect, not general statements that don't really matter anyway.
I happen to agree that the majority of people that buy computers today buy based on the software they want to run, or just buy any computer with MS Windows because they don't know the difference, or they know nothing about the alternatives. The people that visit this forum are not part of the majority, they are exceptional.
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>If you are going to dispute some one else's generalized statements with "WRONG", at least pick ones that you can prove are false. I don't happen to agree with the 1% statement, but doubt that anyone can prove it right or wrong.
CPUs had speed ratings. You can check out all the adverts and tech articles in the magazines. Everyone I know that bought Atari/Amiga computers knew the CPU Mhz. I don't have to prove a 1% thing-- he does. Regardless, don't you see that he MISSED the point altogether-- it's a very simple point-- you can be ridiculed even if you are right like Galileo or others in history. And the point was to someone else's statement not to his.
I addressed the points he made to my reply-- I'm not stating that everything he wrote (to others) is right or wrong. It seems he's already trying to find fault before he understands the point.
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>I happen to agree that the majority of people that buy computers today buy based on the software they want to run, or just buy any computer with MS Windows because they don't know the difference, or they know nothing about the alternatives. The people that visit this forum are not part of the majority, they are exceptional.
But he wasn't addressing todays machines-- the reference was to 80s with Atari ST/Amiga and he wrote:
>You bought the computer that had the most software, or the one that had the better software...
So you need only one instance where a person bought the machine not because it has the most software to disprove his point.
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CodeSmith wrote:
I agree that no existing software makes use of the new features, but again I point you at the C64. There's a very cool game called "metal dust", that won't run on a stock C64 - it requires a SuperCPU expansion that was released after CBM went under. The SuperCPU is an accelerator that adds a new, partially incompatible CPU (undocumented opcodes don't work and it's not cycle exact) to a C64, so it's a significant hardware change. People will write new software for an old platform.
Considering that Metal Dust is probably the ONLY scpu-game in the past 10 years, I hardly find that example encouraging for Natami project.
Oh, and SCPU has been a dead platform for ages anyway...
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If they did go for a ColdFire based option then it'd be up within the speed range of a PSP/PS2.
I'm not really sure how you are making this comparison... I simply don't know where the information for such a conclusion could have come from?
Speed like a PS2 (http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=400)
tiffers
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NATAMI seems to have some crazy idea about making a better Amiga, for no discernible reason...
Because he [Thomas Hirsch] wanted to? He's obviously very capable to have gotten this far, on his own. If he decided to make an A4000 replacement, then partway through realised he could extend it, and make something that could 'realistically' have been the next gen back in 1994, why _shouldn't_ he do it?
That he's told the community and everyone's getting excited / annoyed about the idea is beside the point. It's his project, he's doing it his way. Of course he now has community input and that may be making some impact, but I believe the SuperAGA was planned before the 'meeka' demo which started the current craze.
What's wrong with him doing it? If he pull sit off successfully.. sweet. If not.. egg on his face. No real affect on you, nor the Amiga community, except perhaps some disappointment. I think it's great someone has the balls to give it a go.
bloodline, are you in the group of people who say the AmigaOne isn't a real Amiga, because it doesn't have the Amiga custom chips in it?
tiffers
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@alexh
I wonder who this guy is. Either he's the best novice HDL programmer in the world. He used to work in a hardware company which developed 2D and 3D HDL and borrowed upon his knowledge from projects gone by.
Or it's bollox.
Have you any idea how long it takes to develop a rasteriser from scratch?? Add in filtered texture mapping and shading and Z-clipping and you are talking a good years worth of research and work.
I know, designing hardware 3D accelerators was my first job.
It's certainly not a two week task working evenings and weekends.
Looks like he was involved with designing 3D accelerators too :)
http://www.greyhound-data.com/gunnar/
tiffers
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Makes sense, there is no way he could have done it from scratch in the time. He's "borrowed" some of his old work for NatAmi. It was probably his inspiration.
Nice to know.
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bloodline wrote:
It's fine, but it's not a commercial idea. It's a hobby idea, it's not $20 ASICs and $100 dev boards... it is these claims that irritate me.
They are not ambitious claims, they are false claims! and they make a joke out of the Amiga and the NATAMI project.
Do you have a problem reading or do lie on purpose?
The Natami team NEVER promised, that we will sell the Chip for $20 !
We clearly stated that our long term goal is to develop the HDL code for SuperAGA Chipset and including a CPU, which altogether could be made into an ASIC.
This Asic would then be a AMIGA in a single chip.
The ramp up cost for a Altera Hardcopy are 250,000 quit.
A piece price for a hardcopy ASIC of < $20 is a correct statement.
We never claimed that we have the money to invest.
What we said is that we want to bring the chip design
to functional state that this could be done.
Our goal obviously is to find people interested to make new inexpensive classic Amigas happen again.
I find it rather unfair of you to misquote us here,
and to call us liers based on your misunderstanding of the whole.
Gunnar
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biggun wrote:
bloodline wrote:
It's fine, but it's not a commercial idea. It's a hobby idea, it's not $20 ASICs and $100 dev boards... it is these claims that irritate me.
They are not ambitious claims, they are false claims! and they make a joke out of the Amiga and the NATAMI project.
Do you have a problem reading or do lie on purpose?
I appreciate this thread is big and probably unreadable now.
But I suggest you ask me questions directly, before accusing me of anything.
The Natami team NEVER promised, that we will sell the Chip for $20 !
I never said you did!
But there are supporters of the project that do claim that NATAMI will have a full AGA compatibility + SuperAGA + 200Mhz CPU (of indeterminate ISA) on a single FPGA for $20...
It is claims like these that I feel make a joke out of the NATAMI project.
You would do well to distance yourself from them.
We clearly stated that our long term goal is to develop the HDL code for SuperAGA Chipset and including a CPU, which altogether could be made into an ASIC.
This Asic would then be a AMIGA in a single chip.
Let's keep this at the "could" stage... Because I have no problem with this idea. Infact, I am hoping for single Chip A1200.
The ramp up cost for a Altera Hardcopy are 250,000 quit.
A piece price for a hardcopy ASIC of < $20 is a correct statement.
But the initial investment is too massive. There is no way anyone could raise enough money to start that off! What I would suggest trying to get an FPGA version into the afordable region... If the unit can emualate multiple Retro architectures then there starts to be a significant potential...
We never claimed that we have the money to invest.
What we said is that we want to bring the chip design
to functional state that this could be done.
Our goal obviously is to find people interested to make new inexpensive classic Amigas happen again.
This is a perfectly reasonable goal, but there are many on the Amiga boards who don't understand how much work or money it would take to take an FPGA design to an ASIC and be able to produce it in quantity and at a low cost! These people then turn the whole thing into pointless dream that is unrealistic and stuipd!
I find it rather unfair of you to misquote us here,
and to call us liers based on your misunderstanding of the whole.
I would refer you back to my earlier posts, I have not called you a liar. I would prefer you not to call me one either. I have tried to discount the absurd claims of those with no technological understading or even a grounding in the real world...
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biggun wrote:
The ramp up cost for a Altera Hardcopy are 250,000 quit.
Which one?? $400,000 is the quoted NRE price for a Hardcopy IV.
biggun wrote:
A piece price for a hardcopy ASIC of < $20 is a correct statement.
What is the MOQ (minimum order quantity) at that price?
biggun wrote:
What we said is that we want to bring the chip design
to functional state that this could be done.
Looking forward to it. If you can further the development of the Amiga cores (68k & custom chips), give advice to open source projects such as MiniMig then everyone's a winner :-)
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@bloodline:
frankly, you actually never directly attacked the natami team, but you have accused the technical ideas behind the project to be a joke and insult to the name of amiga, while basing ur criticism mostly on statements made by so called "supporters". if i was a serious dev whose project is criticized like that, i would sure get nasty with u.
so called "amiga comunity" is full of infantile enthusiasts so if you regard urself as something better just do not waste ur time discussing their mistakes.
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alexh wrote:
biggun wrote:
The ramp up cost for a Altera Hardcopy are 250,000 quit.
Which one?? $400,000 is the quoted NRE price for a Hardcopy IV.
That's the offer that we got from our Altera sales contact.
biggun wrote:
A piece price for a hardcopy ASIC of < $20 is a correct statement.
What is the MOQ (minimum order quantity) at that price?
[/quote]
Minimum quantity for was 10,000
Cheers
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wawrzon wrote:
@bloodline:
frankly, you actually never directly attacked the natami team,
I have nothing against what they are doing. Why would I attack them?
but you have accused the technical ideas behind the project to be a joke and insult to the name of amiga, while basing ur criticism mostly on statements made by so called "supporters".
The "supporters" seem to think that NATAMI will be the best thing since sliced silicon. That companies will be lining up to buy this design. They won't. The only people interested in this are people like me, and I want something that I can afford and will run my old software.
if i was a serious dev whose project is criticized like that, i would sure get nasty with u.
If you were a serious Dev, you would have a better understanding of the technical issues involved.
so called "amiga comunity" is full of infantile enthusiasts so if you regard urself as something better just do not waste ur time discussing their mistakes.
No I don't consider myself better. That is why I am astounded by the level of stupidity and lack of ability to Google demonstrated by people here...
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This is a ridiculously low price to walk away from to reignite the Amiga flame!
That's $250,000 + 10,000 * $20 = $450,000
One run of 10,000 ASICs is $45 per CPU. There must be 2,500 regulars if you combined all the active members from here, AmigaWorld.net and Amigans.net and a few other non-English message boards interested in such a beast, surely?.
So, if ONLY 2,500 boards were sold, the rest of the chips (3 extra per board) could be amortized across them @135 per board.
IOW, sell every MB with an additional $135 tagged in, to compensate for not being able to sell/make the remaining 7,500 MBs.
This is the contribution we could make for hopefully another run of 2,500 to be made.
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@Atheist
And you are stumping up the half million dollars are you. I mean its penauts according to you.
And think you are missing a few parts of the cost there
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@Atheist
Are you actullay part of thsi project ? You keep saying we !!!
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JJ wrote:
@Atheist
And you are stumping up the half million dollars are you. I mean its penauts according to you.
And think you are missing a few parts of the cost there
Hi JJ,
Doh, I know it's a ~550 dollar (add $135) MB, I'm only talking about the difficulty in obtaining the one key component.
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JJ wrote:
@Atheist
Are you actullay part of thsi project ? You keep saying we !!!
No, I am not a part of this project, however I will buy the NatAmi60.
I'm speaking as a member of the Amiga community.
This is the train we've been waiting to get on to, lets not miss it. (I'm talking about the future cheap motherboard.)
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Atheist wrote:
JJ wrote:
@Atheist
And you are stumping up the half million dollars are you. I mean its penauts according to you.
And think you are missing a few parts of the cost there
Hi JJ,
Doh, I know it's a ~550 dollar (add $135) MB, I'm only talking about the difficulty in obtaining the one key component.
Regardless... you are asking 2500 people to put $550 into a project. That's serious investment capital... I don't have that that sort of cash that I'm prepared to throw into a project which might not actually work out... how many of those 10000 ASICs will be DOA... after assembly how many boards will be DOA... how long will the Testing and debuging phase be on the ASIC... what do we do if there is a bug in the design... as Jerri found in the C64 ASIC... throw away the first batch and do another run... we don't have that sort of money... There will never be that sort of money for such an antiquated design.
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If you were a serious Dev, you would have a better understanding of the technical issues involved.
no im not a dev so i stand back on technical issues, but even as visual artist i rely on logic to the same extent as on feeling at least.
@atheist: please, thats reallly highly unrealistic, ur just confusing people. i think natami devs have already much more mature plans, as what to do with their research, so let them speak for themselves if u will.
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Hi bloodline,
The people like me are the guinea pigs buying a NatAmi60 for ~1200, the one with the FPGA, that is going to be, over the course of ~1 year, be tested, and tested, and tested again.
No ASIC is being made until the FPGA version, the NatAmi60, is taken around the block way more than a few times.
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wawrzon wrote:
@atheist: please, thats reallly highly unrealistic, ur just confusing people. i think natami devs have already much more mature plans, as what to do with their research, so let them speak for themselves if u will.
Hi wawrzon,
Mine was a possible scenario by which a relatively cheap NatAmi could be done.
The NatAmi60, which is the testing model will be expensive, and I hope they can get over 300 sold.
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wawrzon wrote:
If you were a serious Dev, you would have a better understanding of the technical issues involved.
no im not a dev so i stand back on technical issues, but even as visual artist i rely on logic to the same extent as on feeling at least.
My statement was not intended as an insult, but only as an observation.
@atheist: please, thats reallly highly unrealistic, ur just confusing people. i think natami devs have already much more mature plans, as what to do with their research, so let them speak for themselves if u will.
Atheist represents the extreme end of the Amiga community spectrum. If he is unaware of the technical details involved there are many many others who also do not know.
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Hey everybody, I'm just throwing ideas out there. The numbers aren't THAT high.... I feel that it IS possible!!!!
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Atheist wrote:
Hi bloodline,
The people like me are the guinea pigs buying a NatAmi60 for ~1200, the one with the FPGA, that is going to be, over the course of ~1 year, be tested, and tested, and tested again.
The NatAmi60 is a very reasonable idea, and certainly the most sensible I have seen from this project. But unfortuatelly it is slightly outside my scope of interest. Since I like it, but I am not interested in buying it (Should I be given one, I'd be very happy :-)), I have not commented upon it.
No ASIC is being made until the FPGA version, the NatAmi60, is taken around the block way more than a few times.
The ASIC design and the FPGA although related are two very different things. As I mentioned, Jerri's C64 clone worked fine, but when she got the ASICs back they had an unforseen problem... which required a rework of the mainboards... these problems can be swallowed by a big company with a couple of million to invest in a product they expect to make at least 4 times their money back with. A hobby project is better suited to FPGs where problems can more often than not be fixed in software, with the obvious disadvantage is that the PPU is higher and the chip has to run slower.
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@bloodline:
as far as i understood biggun if he ever spoke of asic, then only as an option in case some bigger company had an interest to use future natami-technik in a device like sort of pda. in that case something related to amiga technik might again appear on the market. whatever consequences it might have to amiga community i dare not foresee. the asic natami computers could be probably constructed to smaller quantities in this case, so to say "by the way".
edit: the failure of similar past ideas like setup boxes based on amiga-technology would indicate that one couldnt rely much on such possibility.
@atheist:
no 2000 people are going to gather around a risky project with uncertain outcome to donate each 500-1000$. face it. even a single sponsor is more likely
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wawrzon wrote:
@atheist:
no 2000 people are going to gather around a risky project with uncertain outcome to donate each 500-1000$. face it. even a single sponsor is more likely
Hi wawrzon,
What if, and I say, what if theoretically:
The NatAmi60 is made, and appeared to be bug free, and IS astounding (as I know it will be), ACube said; "we'll make this if 1,000 people are wiling to prepay $700 or 1500 are willing to prepay $600 for us to make a small run of computers."
How about then? We're basically kind of limited to that at the moment.
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wawrzon wrote:
@bloodline:
as far as i understood biggun if he ever spoke of asic, then only as an option in case some bigger company had an interest to use future natami-technik in a device like sort of pda.
Certainly once one has the HDL of the chip, an ASIC could be made. Indeed, in the next 20 yearsit might become possible to make ASICs of the required complexity for a tiny fraction of the cost they are now...
But unfortunately I must refer back to my German supermodel argument... While it's possible that I might be dating one this time next year... it's VERY unlikely, so unlikely I may as well consider it impossible...
There is no technical reason why any company would chose anything related to the Amiga hardware for their own designs... it simply does not make any sense for any company to do so.
in that case something related to amiga technik might again appear on the market. whatever consequences it might have to amiga community i dare not foresee. the asic natami computers could be probably constructed to smaller quantities in this case, so to say "by the way".
If a comapny is going to produce these chips it's highly likely they would sell them with a markup to help lower their own costs... but like the German supermodel, who has no reason to date me... no company as any reason to use NATAMI... there are modern, cheaper, better supported designs that they can buy.
edit: the failure of similar past ideas like setup boxes based on amiga-technology would indicate that one couldnt rely much on such possibility.
Yes, that's painfully true. I think even in the late 90s the idea of using the AGA chipset in a comercial product was a very shakey idea... it did offer some advantages, like Genlocking and TV resolution support... but still it was old, power hungry and required a lot of silicon...
@atheist:
no 2000 people are going to gather around a risky project with uncertain outcome to donate each 500-1000$. face it. even a single sponsor is more likely
He is not alone in his beliefs though.
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Atheist wrote:
wawrzon wrote:
@atheist:
no 2000 people are going to gather around a risky project with uncertain outcome to donate each 500-1000$. face it. even a single sponsor is more likely
Hi wawrzon,
What if, and I say, what if theoretically:
The NatAmi60 is made, and appeared to be bug free, and IS astounding (as I know it will be), ACube said; "we'll make this if 1,000 people are wiling to prepay $700 or 1500 are willing to prepay $600 for us to make a small run of computers."
How about then? We're basically kind of limited to that at the moment.
If we are going to think theoretically why don't we say that 1.3 billion people were to buy the NatAmi60? How about then?
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Hi bloodline,
We have DiscreetFX. They might give it a try. There's ACube. There's venerable Software Hut and also KGrach.
Alan Redhouse said he was only in it if it was fun, well, this may qualify as "fun"..... don't think there are NatAmi60 trolls lurking anywhere around, do you?
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i do not know if natami60 is really already complete. methinks its just your guess again. i recall all i was told officially was, there is a working 030 prototype and that they are working to adopt an 060. i believe it when i see it, like i trust them to have 030 prototype cause they posted photos of it.
The NatAmi60 is made, and appeared to be bug free, and IS astounding (as I know it will be), ACube said; "we'll make this if 1,000 people are wiling to prepay $700 or 1500 are willing to prepay $600 for us to make a small run of computers."
How about then? We're basically kind of limited to that at the moment.
-exactly.
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wawrzon wrote:
i do not know if natami60 is really already complete.
Hi wawrzon,
They hope to get it available by this summer, end of August.
I would say (opinion!) August to November this year. Maybe!!!!
-
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxer.html
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@bloodline: i do not exactly recall ur argument about the supermodel but why must she be german? you have kate moss in england urself. by the way: back in gymnasium i had a blonde, sexy girlfriend that studied teoretical physics afterwards, i met her 2 weeks ago, shes a doctor in kosmology by now, y know, and she still seems to cheat on men. things happen.
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wawrzon wrote:
@bloodline: i do not exactly recall ur argument about the supermodel but why must she be german?
Yeah... she really must be German... I'm learning the language at the moment, and I would find it a massive advantage :-)
you have kate moss in england urself.
I don't like Kate Moss... and I'm not scabby enough for her...
by the way: back in gymnasium i had a blonde, sexy girlfriend that studied teoretical physics afterwards, i met her 2 weeks ago, shes a doctor in kosmology by now, y know, and she still seems to cheat on men. things happen.
I assume gymnasium = "high school", that means she's German... :idea: :-D
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gymnasium... i actually should say "liceum" thats what it is called. and she is polish just like me, although i live in berlin. but dont let us go ot too much:|)
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wawrzon wrote:
gymnasium... i actually should say "liceum" thats what it is called. and she is polish just like me, although i live in berlin. but dont let us go ot too much:|)
Oh no, Polish is no good, I'm not learning Polish :-P
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shes too old for u anyway i suppose
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wawrzon wrote:
shes too old for u anyway i suppose
:-o How old is she?
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you dont ask ladys things like that, she is polish anyway. so now im going afk, partytime.
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Hey Wawrzon,
I know some Polish, like 'dzien dobry' and 'jak sie masz'?
I think these two line alone are enough to get a Polish 'girlfriend' interested in a conversation:)
Mind you, I seem to have mostly dated psychologists - ditto...no connection there.
Anyway, b4 this turns into Ami-date, I am glad to say that Amigas are still popular over here, so rock n roll>>
a piwo 4 all!
na razie! :-)
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wawrzon wrote:
you dont ask ladys things like that, she is polish anyway. so now im going afk, partytime.
Bah! This thread was just becoming interesting...
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I think the Natami will be good as it might put a dent into Ebay prices (ending supply and demand).
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man, i've read trough the thing and its like steroinds for the C= Amiga heart, if only someone could presuade them to add a C128/vic support to it all.
However, i fear the split, an 68060 a4000 would require some form of emulator to do what the natami can, maybe this can be remapped to a rtg card, i dont know.'
But heck if, as i see it, prehaps cpu chips will be made in the future ^^
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@mike-
After the Natami is ready, i highly doubt you'll need an A4000 very much anymore 8-)
@Bloodline
A positive mind makes positive things happen, so don't shoot the duck down just yet :-)
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bloodline wrote:
Certainly once one has the HDL of the chip, an ASIC could be made. Indeed, in the next 20 yearsit might become possible to make ASICs of the required complexity for a tiny fraction of the cost they are now...
I don't think you have to wait 20 years. Here are two companies I'm watching that try to solve these hurdles: eASIC (http://www.easic.com/) and ViASIC (http://viasic.com/). I hope Gunnar tries to contact them also for a quote.
greets,
Staf.
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Fats wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Certainly once one has the HDL of the chip, an ASIC could be made. Indeed, in the next 20 yearsit might become possible to make ASICs of the required complexity for a tiny fraction of the cost they are now...
I don't think you have to wait 20 years. Here are two companies I'm watching that try to solve these hurdles: eASIC (http://www.easic.com/) and ViASIC (http://viasic.com/). I hope Gunnar tries to contact them also for a quote.
greets,
Staf.
Actually I've heard of ViASIC... but I didn't realise they had got anywhere!
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Hi Piru, et al.
Piru wrote:
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxer.html
"It was only when the motherboard entered final prototype that the design was demonstrated."
Presumably they finished the HDL code used on the 2000 prototype model.
From the pics it appears the 2000 prototype used 3 small (by today's standards) Altera flex devices.
Does anyone know if the HDL code the BoXeR team wrote still exists, or who may have it/where it might be?
Perhaps they could be persuaded to release it?
Red
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RedskullDC wrote:
Hi Piru, et al.
Piru wrote:
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/boxer.html
"It was only when the motherboard entered final prototype that the design was demonstrated."
Presumably they finished the HDL code used on the 2000 prototype model.
From the pics it appears the 2000 prototype used 3 small (by today's standards) Altera flex devices.
Does anyone know if the HDL code the BoXeR team wrote still exists, or who may have it/where it might be?
Perhaps they could be persuaded to release it?
Red
The BoXeR project just suddenly disappeared without a trace. We don't actually need their HDL code since NatAmi already has AGA support, etc.
Peronally I think that they're getting a little ahead of themselves with announcing a soft-CPU. Giving speed estimates is risky too, as it's very uncertain whether they will be able to reach it. Just don't expect to see this 68070 any time soon.
Hans
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@Hans_
The NatAmi team described their roadmap on their forum, and the new CPU is supposed to come in only after the first version has been released. I think the recent chatter around the CPU arose from their deciding against coldfire and posting some ideas, and the discussion that came about around that (I can't find a link, but Gunnar mentioned that right now the CPU is at the stage where he and Thomas are just kicking ideas around at lunchtime; the main event is still the '060 board). Gunnar has explicitly said that the 68060 version will come first, and the CPU will follow only once the SuperAGA chipset has been debugged. Hopefully the first release will happen sometime in the next 2-3 months (summer 2008), but given the nature of engineering projects I'm guessing it will instead happen in the last 2-3 months of the year.
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I know... this thread is quite unreadable now, it's absolutely too big! :-)
..but I want to add a personal note too.
I personally like very much the Natami project: I've heard of it some months ago, and just recently I informed on it properly.
We are all sick of that {bleep} we got in these years from the various Amiga owners, and all the not fullfilled promises, so the negative and doubtly voices are normal; something not to complain if you consider also that in the Amiga scene and enthusiasts there are still many unrealistic and blind people who think about the Amiga as we were in the end of the '80s/early '90s: great times, great and feelings but things have changed a lot since then.
But beside this the Natami project is something real, in development since 2003 (right?), with a precise roadmap, next to a significant step, with the release of the Natami60 DevBoard.
So it's better not to criticise so much and wait a few more time and see what will happen.
If the promises will be (at least mostly) fullfilled, than let's drop our hats, otherwise constructive criticism is welcome.
Personally I have some doubts about putting not only the new Amiga custom circuitry in one FPGA (especially if not among the most powerful ones - but that would lead to high costs), but also a new advanced implementation of the microprocessor.
But I'm not an expert, and I have just a few basics of FPGA programming, so let's wait for the DevBoard.
Ahhh... yes... someone spoke about creating just multiplatform retro-machine: no, no, and I hope this is not the case.
I like the MiniMig project, but it's really a kind of toy at user level. (and a good FPGA programming at developer level!)
From such a project, as Amiga user and fan, I want a new upgraded system, with a good backwards compatibility, with new features, keeping the Amiga way of doing things: if I would get "just" an A1200 in a new compact size, maybe more powerful speaking about computing power, I'll stay with my original machines and emulators.
So go on, and give us a brand new model of Amiga, for the future!
Hear u 'n da future!
Luca "OgniX" \8^)
P.S. The Natami project (www.natami.net) is another good reason for having the Amiga OS4 for 68k (see a recent past thread), but I really doubt that this will happen (and not for technical reasons). :-(
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still i fear the split, there must be some way of doing it on a classic amiga or were slightly {bleep}ed, again. The only sulotion i can think of is that in a few years someone decides to make the 68070 into a real cpu, however, keeping it soft lets you clear any bugs... what do we do? if we want to use the classic?
What about jitting it? ( as i understand jit, it computes and stores the outcome )
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The 68070 is very much a real CPU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68070). Just not the one you'd want...
"Hey, how can we cripple a vanilla 68000 CPU?" "I dunno...remove some math functions?"
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uhm, i think their adding functions not removing them but i see a road riddled with problems, just creating a compiler will take time effort blood sweat and tears, but the idea i love. we could add needed features as required, since its a soft cpu, problem being, we might change it 10 different ways each.
so new natami executable will might have custom have cpu instructions included?
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mike- wrote:
so new natami executables might have custom cpu instructions included?
That's an interesting idea, What instructions would be usefull?