Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga community support ideas => Topic started by: ognix on June 20, 2008, 12:09:00 PM
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Hello everybody!
I don't log so often here on Amiga.org, and I mostly read news and forums daily, but this time I wanted to express my opinion on the current Amiga situation, regarding the OS especially.
My idea about a possible and _viable_ way to continue and grow our Amiga experience is to release the Amiga OS 4.0 for 68k.
The reasons that lead me to this solution are the following:
- Amiga OS 4.0 is PPC-based and presently there is no recent hardware where running it (with "recent" I mean on sale and production right now);
- even if some projects (Sam440, Efika, etc) will reach the "mass" production state, they will be very very expensive (since the small production and niche market), not to count that even the present hardware solutions are very very expensive, nor have a (good) future;
- PPC failed to reach a sufficient user base on the consumer computer industry: I know... there are XBox and PS3 (with its Cell PPC-based architecture), but they are not sufficient for giving a good and long future for the PPC family of microprocessors (and Apple "helped" a lot on this side): why sticking with it? Just for being "no-x86"?
- 68k emulation goes hundreds times faster than the fastest 68060 "real thing" on present machines, and works well;
- making the OS 4.0 available for 68k will mean having a good user base made of the so called "classic" Amigas (maybe starting from a 68030 machine as minimum) and emulator users.
This means more people to sell the package to (more money to earn), and more developers (and more motivated since the bigger user base).
- AFAIK Amiga OS 4.0 is written in C mostly so it could be ported with no big hurdles and not much time (not immediate, with some work, I know).
What do you think about this?
Many people will complain about the future of the platform would be "no hardware platform" and just emulation: I was on their side some years ago, but not now.
I'd love so much to have a nice custom and "special" harware where to run my beloved Amiga OS (and the Amiga was and is a great mixture and cooperation between software and hardware), but I won't spend 500 EUR or so on a motherboard, even if I'm an amigan since 1989! (and it won't resemble the orginal Amiga hardware philosophy anyway)
And I'm sure most of the people agree with me, especially in this situation of unclarity and divisions in the Amiga scene (see MorphOS, AROS).
I prefer going on under _good_ emulation (even with a Amithlon-like system - eg. X-Amiga Project) and having some new software for my computer and large user base, than having a costly and special board, and share my experience with other 1000 people in the whole world, so letting it die after a few years.
This is where Amiga is going on right now in my opinion... :(
The user base shrunk a lot in these last 8 years and I think now it's quite stable (from my feelings - BTW, how many active Amiga users around the world? Any clue?)
But I won't go further on this uncertainity and I'll stick with my _Amiga stuff_, either my Amiga 500, 1000, 1200, 4000 or WinUAE (in this last case, a system to call and use x86 code directly for computing demanding tasks a-la-Amithlon would be great).
This uncertainity is surely due to Amiga Inc. as well, which is following Commodore mistakes very well, blocking good ideas and proposals and not giving a clear directions doing real things (Amiga DE... mah! :( ).
And speaking about Amiga Inc. mistakes we come back to the OS: sincerely I don't know which troubles are going on between them and Hyperion, but I hope that development of Amiga OS won't be stopped; if I'm not wrong I remember that Hyperion signed a contract that gave a kind of independence to them regarding the release of the OS.
Ok, I finished.
I hope I gave some material to speak on... and maybe one day Amiga Inc. will be owned by us, the users!
C u 'n Da future.
Luca "OgniX"
P.S. Many thanks to those producing and selling hardware for our Amigas!
P.P.S. If my idea encounters a good favour, could an on-line petition help?
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Some good ideas, really. In my opinion not possible. We already have Amiga OS 4.0 released and most people still can't use it. It doesn't look like this is going to change anytime soon.
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It really depends on what do you use and what you want from the Amiga/AmigaOS. Unfortunately (or perhaps it's a better thing, after all) there will be always different requirements and expectations from the users. Personally, I'm more for the custom, albeit costly hw choice.
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The thing is, not only is OS4 PowerPC specific, so is all the software written for it.
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Plus the fact that OS4 on 68k will crawl
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ognix wrote:
could an on-line petition help?
:lol:
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if I'm not wrong I remember that Hyperion signed a contract that gave a kind of independence to them regarding the release of the OS.
That is what Ben Hermans was eager to point out, that he actually devised the contract in a way that it had such independence in case things went south.
Well, look where it got them (Hyperion).
The Amiga IP is the only even remotely "valuable" part of the Amiga Inc. They are not going to let it go.
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I really don't see the point in this. For 68k, you have a number of excellent choices already (like Amikit, Amigasys and the like). Plus a thousand times more applications running on top of them.
ognix wrote:
Amiga OS 4.0 is PPC-based and presently there is no recent hardware where running it (with "recent" I mean on sale and production right now)
There is plenty of suitable hardware on sale and production. Unfortunately A. Inc doesn't want OS4 to run on it (if they want it to run at all :roll:).
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[color=ff0000]Aros[/color][/b] for everything, a viable option forward!!!
you need to say it like an announcer though :-D
seriously skip amiga inc. blah blah altogether.
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@ognix
I have also been wondering about Amiga OS 4.0 for 68K for some time. In the early days, the developers had to start somewhere, so I suspect they created some 68K stuff to prove some of the concepts they would use later on. Only the people who were directly involved would know for sure.
The contract for Amiga OS 4.0 clearly indicated that it was for Power-PC. There was also a general movement away from the Commodore Amiga chipsets, but I don't remember if this was actually part of the contract.
Unfortunely, time progressed, the AmigaOne hardware ran into difficulties, OS4 was late, and the existing licensing scheme does not allow for any other motherboard to be used instead of the officially sanctioned Eyetech AmigaOne motherboards, (and the old Classic Amiga machines with certain PPC accelerator boards).
Amiga Inc and Hyperion are no longer cooperating in any way with each other. They have taken their grievances against each other to the courts.
So we get to wait ....
---
redfox
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The 68K has seen it's day, it just doesn't have the power to run OS/4. It didn't phenomenal things in it's day, but that day is long gone.
Really truely all you need is to get os 4 running on old Mac PPC equipment. It's plentiful, cheap as chips and well made. Moana was close but Hyperion stopped the project.
And here's another question, can you serious talk about writing another OS? Look at AROS and it's struggles. Sadly the AMiga community has shrunk. Moana would be child's play compared with rewriting OS 4.
Look at OS X, they had to break billion dollar industry leader Intel's trusted platform module, all the OS 4 needs to break is a boot loader and we can't do it.
(http://forums.eu.atari.com/images/smilies/specialdriver.gif)
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by Varthall on 2008/6/20 14:11:03
It really depends on what do you use and what you want from the Amiga/AmigaOS. Unfortunately (or perhaps it's a better thing, after all) there will be always different requirements and expectations from the users. Personally, I'm more for the custom, albeit costly hw choice.
Hello! :)
I'd love custom hardware, and I'd like having a special computer away from the mass (of PCs), but if the price for this is death, I say no.
With "death" I mean no advancements in the whole system, OS upgrades and applications.
If the custom hardware is bought by around 1000 users around the world, I don't think Amiga will go that much forward.
If they could manage to create a motherboard with processore in the range of 350 EUR, maybe it wouldn't be that bad, but I seriously doubt...
...of course problems with Amiga Inc. should be solved... :-?
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xeron wrote:
The thing is, not only is OS4 PowerPC specific, so is all the software written for it.
"Fortunately" (I know depends on the point of view) there are not many specific Amiga OS 4.0 applications, and most of them have the 68k counterparts, so this is not a problem.
...but I know you (much probably Amiga OS 4.0 user) want more OS 4.0 apps! :-)
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JJ wrote:
Plus the fact that OS4 on 68k will crawl
I don't know exactly for sure, but from what I've read on comments about OS 4.0 it runs and boots very fast on PPC machines, so I assume that programmers retained one of the important postive aspects of Amiga OS: lightness.
But this is an issue that should be clarified by who made it.
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meega wrote:
ognix wrote:
could an on-line petition help?
:lol:
Maybe I could say "survey", just to check how many interests there could be, by giving some notes on the minimum hardware requirements for running it on real Amigas.
I think that running it in a useful way under emulation only could not "appear nice" to the public: it's not a technical thing, it's just a "bad feeling" that would limitate very much sales (we know, we are Amiga users, we want the real thing! :-D ).
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Piru wrote:
if I'm not wrong I remember that Hyperion signed a contract that gave a kind of independence to them regarding the release of the OS.
That is what Ben Hermans was eager to point out, that he actually devised the contract in a way that it had such independence in case things went south.
Well, look where it got them (Hyperion).
The Amiga IP is the only even remotely "valuable" part of the Amiga Inc. They are not going to let it go.
Mmmhh... :-(
if the situation is like this, I can't think things are going to be ok: we, the Amiga system, need a _clear_ direction where to go, for not loosing the few energies remained in many "small rivers" (and this is the present Amiga situation).
And if also who should guide the entire community is behaving that bad, we don't have much hope on going forward.
About Amiga IP, maybe in 10 years, they'll think it's not profitable anymore ( :-? ) and maybe they'll let it go, but such "option" is not so viable... (I know... just speculations...)
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The quick way forward is to finish the G4 Mac Mini version of OS 4 and sell that.
Even though these machines aren't produced anymore there are a lot of second hand machines and these numbers are growing since Mac users are now gearing up for Intel machines. Doing this will ensure 1 to 2 years of free growth in both developers and users that can actually use the OS for something instead of getting too slow hardware or too unstable hardware.
During that time they can then choose another viable hardware platform which is affordable.
A 68k version is useless. Way too slow to advance the OS.
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Colani1200 wrote:
I really don't see the point in this. For 68k, you have a number of excellent choices already (like Amikit, Amigasys and the like). Plus a thousand times more applications running on top of them.
Amikit, as the others, are a well done "pre-compiled" complete Amiga system ready for running under emulation: read Amiga OS 3.9 with a lot of add-ons for a better, productive and more modern system, but NOT a new operating system.
The idea of having Amiga 68k with its apps (and some thousands users and more) and Amiga PPC with its apps (and some 1000 users maybe) is not clever, nor a way to make the systems going forward.
Once again, going forward for me means:
- having official OS updates
- clear idea on what system I'm going to develop on
- how many potential users I'll have
- writing one application and not many for three versions of the system.
The present situation is a lot counfusing, and I don't like it absolutely!
There is plenty of suitable hardware on sale and production. Unfortunately A. Inc doesn't want OS4 to run on it (if they want it to run at all :roll:).
There are some options, but here comes the price again: I don't see a bright future in (niche) comsumer market for these boards, even considering the economic situation and trends in the western world at least.
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KThunder wrote:
[color=ff0000]Aros[/color][/b] for everything, a viable option forward!!!
you need to say it like an announcer though :-D
seriously skip amiga inc. blah blah altogether.
If AROS will provide also 68k and chipset emulation it would be a very good option to go forward (if possible).
Differently we should recompile and/or modify all applications we have (at least the most significant ones).
Anyway I'll drop my hat to all AROS programmers and contributors since their work is really admirable!
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Hello everybody again! \8^)
I just want to summerize some ideas and opinions that came out from this thread:
- beside the technical problems for backporting Amiga OS4 on 68k (in my opinion possible, since it has been written in C mostly, and there are no radical system changes/upgrades), after speaking with some "relevant personalites" :-) in the Amiga scene, this option sadly has to be discarted almost for sure due to the various lawsuits going on between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion;
- for the same juridical reasons also making the OS4 available for other PPC platforms (Sam440, Efika, MacMini, etc) beside AmigaONE and Amigas with PPC is also impossible;
- in this way the only one hope we have for upgrading the Amiga system (at least speaking about the OS) is AROS!
In its more popular flavour, on common x86 machines, by integrating UAE into it to get backwards compatibility (if this thing will be implemented), and in its 68k flavour, for running it on real Amigas (especially in case of system upgrades) and on the Natami boards (hopefully available - www.natami.net).
I particulary like the idea of having a new Amiga in hardware and software: in this thread I spoke mostly about running the OS under emulation, because of the costly PPC boards (but I really like, technically speaking, the Sam440 project).
If the Natami project will come for real, I think we'll have the best we could ask in terms of "amiganism" (maybe not so much computing power, but if the custom circuitry will improve over the present one): of course always at a decent price (even 200 EUR or so would not be bad).
Someone may say I forgot MorphOS: mmmhhh... I my personal opinion it's going somewhere else by itself; I mean I feel it's getting more and more away from Amiga.
So I don't consider it an option for going forward on the Amiga side (despite all the good efforts of developers).
Let's hope AROS project will continue and even accelerate its pace to give us the new Amiga OS (at least) we are waiting for!
Hear u 'n da future!
Luca "OgniX" \8^)
P.S. A sad side note: have you visited the Amiga Inc. website recently?
It's a great shame!!!!!
Selling games for cellphones under the Amiga logo (like Amiga Sudoku)...
Leave them alone... :pissed:
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I think we need to get the layouts for the PPC boards and start making them one at the time. This would give us both 68K in the existing Amigas and PPC for OS4.
Hyperion is unlikely to port OS 4 away from PPC because of an unjustified concern that running an OS on x86 automatically means competition with Microsoft and Apple. Apple proved it that it "only" takes a really polished product to sell more OS licenses and machines to run it on. Apple went from having really bad hardware and an outdated OS to being a leader in both hardware AND OS in under 10 years.
Theoretical timelines. If it took about a decade for a really nimble company (Apple) to turn things around, how long would it take to turn things around for a less-nimble company? 25 years? 50 years? Do we have that much time?
I'd say that if several hundreds (or even thousands) custom-made (hand-made?) PPC boards are made for A1200s (or A3000/A4000), that would be far better than any petition.
Aside from that, I still do not fully understand the gripe between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. I doubt that their lawyers can make sense of it either. If an agreement says that OS can only be sold with a new computer and there is no friggin new computer because nobody is making it, maybe it is time to revise that agreement.
Hyperions! Can you port OS 4 to the iPhone? (in theory, at least). There will be plenty of iPhones going around for years to come. Cool hardware, too.
Plan B: Blizzard PPC emulator? ;)
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Hyperion is unlikely to port OS 4 away from PPC because of an unjustified concern that running an OS on x86 automatically means competition with Microsoft and Apple.
:roll: I agree. Unjustified is right.
Again, that's as intelligent as saying that VW should make all their cars run only on Diesel not Gas so they don't have to compete in the "Automobile" market. Sure they won't sell nearly as many as that would be a dumb move, but that doesn't change the fact they are still selling "CARS".
MS, Apple, and Hyperion all sell OSes. The fact that Apple charges more for hardware and Hyperion doesn't even HAVE hardware to go with their OS as PPC is so difficult/hard to get at a decent price is insignificant in the fact that they all sell OSes.
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Someone fill me in: what software runs on OS4 thats worth all this hassle?
68k AmigaOS has 1000's of titles written for it. How long will it take for OS4 to get 10% of this?
Sure it might be fun and I am curious to see OS4 in action, but a new platform is just not viable. Me I'll fire up my A1200 for the occasional game or demo, Winuae for serious apps that I want to use every now and then, which perfom faster than a top=flight amiga. Sorry guys I've been an Amiga owner for 15 years or so but the time for all of this passed about 10 years ago
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stefcep2 wrote:
Someone fill me in: what software runs on OS4 thats worth all this hassle?
OS4-only software I use often are DVPlayer and MPlayer for videos, MEncoder for VideoCD authoring (only for the video conversion part) and Milkytracker for module tracking. There are some useful software that use Cygnix-X11, like Abiword and Gnumeric. Other interesting software is the Last.FM client and the Jooleem puzzle game which I'm addicted to these days :)
Varthall
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Apple moved from PPC because IBM's priority is games systems not computers, for every PPC Apple there were at least ten game machines. The advances in computer chips are coming in the x86 world, you want a multi-core laptop for example? There isn't a good PPC option for that. The emphasis is games.
Whilst you could argue that the Amiga is a game machine and fits better in the PPC world you also have to realise that the choice of motherboards and chips is far, far more limited.
With x86 you have the choice of motherboards, faster CPUs, more cores, and the ability to run a "productivity" OS (MS or Apple) at full speed.
That final point is a good one. I don't think anyone imagines that Amiga is or could become competition to MS or Apple. Amiga is something that you run in addition to you work machine. A typical Amiga user will always need a PC or Mac as well, so why not have them in the same box?
(http://forums.filefront.com/attachments/bf1942-modding-editing/44931d1136773430-when-will-someone-make-dalek-mod-davros.jpg)
RIP Dalek Fred
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The irony in Amiga Inc/Hyperion situation is that Amiga has no competition since it has such dedicated following. Macs used to be sleepy, slow machines, with outdated OSes and still had the strong following. Amiga has excellent hardware, an OS that is *still* competitive (even without Amiga OS4) *and* it has dedicated following.
Most people who buy Macs use them for fairly mundane purposes - surfing, Photoshopping, digital lifestyle stuff :) and I do not see a single reason why Amiga cannot do the same or better *today* with or without OS 4.
PPC cards are so rare and expensive that without additional "inventory", they only add to the predicament of Amiga OS 4. Following the same thought, if someone was able to design a PPC card, designing an Intel-based card should not be far fetched. Port OS 4 to Intel, then sell the OS CD with the card as one package. If hardware was available, I am sure applications would grow around it fairly fast, given Amiga's user base.
I also like the AROS idea, but lack of binary compatibility is problematic. However, I keep reminding myself how elegantly Apple solved the "old mac" issue with Carbon. Could not AROS emulate "old Amiga" and still pave the way towards the new, running on some cool Intel hardware with clear hardware requirements? I am not aware of "Classic Amiga" emulator (WinUAE) for AROS but it seems like a feasible solution, particularly for games and demo scene. Would not that be cool? 68K that runs way faster via software and a great Intel-based OS underneath.
What nobody wants is some AmigaAnywhere stuff which smells of overcooked java beans. I think we all identify Amiga with some cool metal, silicon and software :) - not more, but also not anything less.
MorphOS also looks good, but seems to be PPC-based, which is a no-no since there is no hardware available.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that binary-compatible WinUAE port for AROS would make Amiga a viable platform once again. And open source to boot.
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@stepcep2: Running OS 4 is not the goal in itself. The goal is to run the latest Amiga OS on widely available hardware.
Since Amiga OS is closed-source, with two companies behind OS and Amiga trademark in a deadlock (isn't that ironic? OS knew how to do multitasking 20 years ago and people owning it are in deadlock), we have two options:
1) Wait until happy thoughts and reason prevail. Note that glaciers are melting faster than any progress is made on the Amiga Inc/Hyperion front
2) Find an alternative with an open-source OS (AROS, for example), build "classic amiga" environment within in with WinUAE and maintain the list of compatible hardware (Motherboards, graphics cards, etc.)
WinUAE runs so well on my T40s and X41 (fast + reliable) even though they are a bit dated, that it would be a pity not to integrate it into the future OS platform for Amiga. New software could then be written/recompiled for the new OS and the development could, at least in theory, continue. Linux has an amazing developer support and Amiga (Amiga = OS + Hardware + Software) should have the same. "Classic Amiga" would support 68K development for those who just can't get enough of "Motoroller MC68000". Future apps would have to support Amiga OS APIs *and* a limited selection of Intel-based hardware.
With these thoughts, another question. Which one of the open-source "flavors" of Amiga OS-compatible OSes would be the best foundation for this. AROS or something else? It seems that all "commercial" Amiga OS efforts are using code for AROS anyway (both Hyperion and Amiga Inc use their source code, according to AROS site).
Given that OS 5 may never see the light of day (if history is any guide), getting a 68K emulator to work under AROS seems to be the only feasible/within-reach option to run Amiga stuff on top-notch hardware *and* have 68K as a legacy option for all those applications and games we want to continue using.
What is interesting to me is that Mac OS X did not attract the same kind of application developers as Amiga OS once did back in the day. This gives me hope that if a solid platform existed, same (better!) cool applications would come back to amaze us :)
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codenetfx wrote:
Since Amiga OS is closed-source, with two companies behind OS and Amiga trademark in a deadlock (isn't that ironic? OS knew how to do multitasking 20 years ago and people owning it are in deadlock), we have two options:
Hi codenetfx,
Yes, I agree. And I agree with the glacier stuff too.
codenetfx wrote:
2) Find an alternative with an open-source OS (AROS, for example), build "classic amiga" environment within in with WinUAE and maintain the list of compatible hardware (Motherboards, graphics cards, etc.)
Too complex, AOS inside AOS? Can the inside one communicate with the outside one?? x86 HW is constantly changing, can AROS keep up?
codenetfx wrote:
With these thoughts, another question. Which one of the open-source "flavors" of Amiga OS-compatible OSes would be the best foundation for this. AROS or something else?
Don't need anything new, it's all available right now!!!
AOS "as-is"! (Doesn't need to be open sourced.)
Dead lead weight Amiga Inc. Del. can NOT stop NatAmi, in ANY way, shape or form.....
NatAmi with AGA extensions, could keep us going for 20 more years, really.
Remember; ANY NatAmi model that is acquired is ONLY a slow version of what IS possible. What's the limit? 3 GHz is the limit!
Amiga could return to it's roots through NatAmi..... HW and SW in harmony. (Or as close as one could get.)
and who's in charge? Y O U !
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@Atheist
NatAmi looks great but it is not available yet (or not priced yet). I will be following this one as well
More info is available at http://www.natami.net/qa.htm
Special hardware is great, provided the manufacturer can keep up with the demand. I'd rather have Amiga OS on a machine I can put together from high-end components which are readily available and not tied to one manufacturer. However, I am interested in NatAmi although I do not understand your claim about its scalability up to 3GHz. Can you provide more details? Since NatAmi is based on MC68060, how do we get to 3GHz (in theory)?
The most likely scenario for Amiga is that no corporate entity will throw its weight in full into Amiga OS/Amiga Hardware arena. Most reasonable scenario would be a high-end, Intel-based platform (Dual Core, graphics with 512MB RAM, 4 GB RAM (maximum for 32-bit), fastest SCSI we can find, best soundcard we can find). Such a platform would not be outdated in a few years, at which point an upgrade to OS would be due. All of this is a lot of work of course, which is best handled in an open-source scenario. Amiga OS could really use an API extension for multi-processor support down the road.
Next question is "who is going to write applications for open-source Amiga OS?" Probably the same people who wrote all those amazing applications for Linux. Amiga has a big advantage over Linux and Mac OS X: a long-standing multimedia legacy, a ton of useful applications, probably the best possible 32-bit OS kernel out there and an excellent application framework API. Linux lacks many of these things even today and Mac OS X is just starting to pick up steam on the development front. Platform with best applications wins (eventually). Amiga tanked in part because of limited developer support in fields other than graphics and animation.
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AROS with integrated UAE (not WinUAE, that's the Windows version of UAE) would be an interesting idea. You could evolve AROS without losing backwards compatibility with 20 year old software.
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@ persia:
I spent some time today to read up on current status of AROS and it seems that UAE (WinUAE was my lapse, I meant to say UAE of course) port already exists (mentioned on the FAQ page). On the same page, it also says that 68k emulation does not work because of little-endian vs. big-endian issue (not quite clear why this is an issue, as WinUAE runs on Intel even though Intel should have the same issue and does not - maybe it just needs to be clarified).
In any case, UAE could provide backward-compatibility while AROS could provide API compatibility going forward. Either way, it would be Amiga OS compatible. I will definitely take a look at the Virtual Machine they made available for download which contains AROS.
Natami is a great project, but my concern is that it may not be able to serve the market. If it does, great. If it does not, I will continue to look at AROS. Worst thing that can happen is that I will learn something new about Amiga OS, APIs and emulators.
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codenetfx wrote:
@Atheist
However, I am interested in NatAmi although I do not understand your claim about its scalability up to 3GHz. Can you provide more details? Since NatAmi is based on MC68060, how do we get to 3GHz (in theory)?
Hi codenetfx,
When I was quoting the 3 GHz, I was saying so as in "3 GHz is not an unattainable plateau". 3 GHz components have been made, they work. We could have the same, eventually. I wasn't going out on a limb and saying, "hey man, we're getting shiny new 5.734 GHz CPUs before intel and AMD can scratch their bum tomorrow", when NO ONE has such parts working reliably. They don't, neither could we have them too.
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codenetfx wrote:
Most people who buy Macs use them for fairly mundane purposes - surfing, Photoshopping, digital lifestyle stuff :) and I do not see a single reason why Amiga cannot do the same or better *today* with or without OS 4.
Apple were pretty clever in the early part of this decade, and bought up a load of productivity softawre and made it OSX only. Take Logic Pro (the Audio production osftwre I use), Apple bought it from Emagic, and built their OSX audio subsystem around Logic... now Logic works beautifully on a Mac... And only runs on a Mac... it's a killer App, I have to buy a Mac to use it. Apple even give away a cut-down version of Logic Pro (called Garage Band) with every Mac for free!
Logic Pro is just one example of this, Apple have plenty of others... mostly video and gfx software.
PPC cards are so rare and expensive that without additional "inventory", they only add to the predicament of Amiga OS 4. Following the same thought, if someone was able to design a PPC card, designing an Intel-based card should not be far fetched.
Not such a bad idea.. moder x86 chips are really too advanced, and the amount of interface chips would essentially make the acelerator an entire x86 computer.. but maybe one of the older x86... a nice idea... but once you support x86, it's better/cheaper/quicker just to use an off the shelf x86 board.
Port OS 4 to Intel, then sell the OS CD with the card as one package. If hardware was available, I am sure applications would grow around it fairly fast, given Amiga's user base.
Well, lets just stop all this talk of OS4 ported to x86. Hyperion Don't want to do it (they ahve stated this on many occations). Hyperion have also stated that they legaly cannot do, since they only bought the right to write OS4 for the PPC. Amiga Inc. and Hyperion are now in court. There will be no more working between them. It's over, OS4 stops at the PPC.
I also like the AROS idea, but lack of binary compatibility is problematic. However, I keep reminding myself how elegantly Apple solved the "old mac" issue with Carbon.
You have confused Carbon with ClassicEnvironment. Carbon is NOT binary compatible with Mac OS9 apps, it is only API compatible with OS9 app. Developers could take their OS9 source code and recompile it for Carbon, and their app would work on OSX. In that respect AROS is a bit like Carbon. OS9 apps do not work on OSX, unless you use the ClassicEnvironment...
The Classic Environment is a Virtual machine, much like UAE, except it doesn't bother to emulate the CPU (this is why ClassicEnvironment only works on PPC OSX Macs). When you run an OS9 app on a PPX OSX Mac it is actually being run inside an Emulator which has a hidden interface.. i.e. all interface calls are passed to OSX so the app appears to be runing in OSX.
Could not AROS emulate "old Amiga" and still pave the way towards the new, running on some cool Intel hardware with clear hardware requirements? I am not aware of "Classic Amiga" emulator (WinUAE) for AROS but it seems like a feasible solution, particularly for games and demo scene. Would not that be cool? 68K that runs way faster via software and a great Intel-based OS underneath.
The plan for AROS is to hide UAE inside AROS... much like the ClassicEnvironment... so that 68k apps would actually be loaded into the hidden UAE and all the apps windows etc would be displayed on the AROS desktop as though the app is running natively.
What nobody wants is some AmigaAnywhere stuff which smells of overcooked java beans. I think we all identify Amiga with some cool metal, silicon and software :) - not more, but also not anything less.
AmigaAnyware doesn't even make sense in the modern computing world.
MorphOS also looks good, but seems to be PPC-based, which is a no-no since there is no hardware available.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that binary-compatible WinUAE port for AROS would make Amiga a viable platform once again. And open source to boot.
I agree, and have done since 1999 :-D
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codenetfx wrote:
@ persia:
I spent some time today to read up on current status of AROS and it seems that UAE (WinUAE was my lapse, I meant to say UAE of course) port already exists (mentioned on the FAQ page). On the same page, it also says that 68k emulation does not work because of little-endian vs. big-endian issue (not quite clear why this is an issue, as WinUAE runs on Intel even though Intel should have the same issue and does not - maybe it just needs to be clarified).
68k is not a problem as long as the 68k programs are not allowed to interact freely with the x86 programs. That is why we want to take the approach of putting the 68k apps into their own little VM world of UAE and carefully control how much interaction they have with x86 AROS.
If we simply integrated the 68k emulator into the OS like MOS and AOS4, then the 68k apps would be allowed to "play around" with the x86 system structures... the problem is that on x86 data is stored : "DCBA" (little endien) and on the 68K the same data is stored: "ABCD" (big endien)... so 68k apps in a x86 environment will read the data the wrong way around, and thus fail.
Things get even more problematic when you use the 64bit x86 verion of AROS (which is probably more advanced now than the 32bit x86 version).. where the 68k apps have no concept of 64bits at all (no 68k Amiga software is 64bit compatible) and wouldn't work even if the x86 was big endien!
All my x86 machines are 64bit now...
In any case, UAE could provide backward-compatibility while AROS could provide API compatibility going forward. Either way, it would be Amiga OS compatible. I will definitely take a look at the Virtual Machine they made available for download which contains AROS.
Yes, exactly.
Natami is a great project, but my concern is that it may not be able to serve the market. If it does, great. If it does not, I will continue to look at AROS. Worst thing that can happen is that I will learn something new about Amiga OS, APIs and emulators.
For me AROS + UAE integration is the way forward... but someone needs to get on with the 68k version of AROS to make this a reality. Since for this to work we need a 68k version of AROS :-)
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Does it make a difference as to x68 or x86 based architecture?
>>> '''I'd love so much to have a nice custom and "special" harware where to run my beloved Amiga OS (and the Amiga was and is a great mixture and cooperation between software and hardware)'''
Yes, I agree Onix.
The term 'home computing' nowadys, seems to be now PC or a Mac, which are used in office and home and only one OS for all. That's why I prefer still to use the Amiga over a PC,(albeit an outdated one) because it's fun to use! not just a work machine.
In my opinion people liked thr simplicity of computing, and usuabilty with wide range of applications, which was what the Amiga offered back in the 80's and 90's.
The best OS next to Amiga has to be for me, Apple OSX which is something which is cool and looks smart!
Microsoft tried to cross the gap between home market and PC work market with 'Home editions' of Windows, and now Vista, but they are waaay too big memory guzzling monsters! > which is why I'd to go back to using a 'user friendly' but effective OS's that isnt memory and power intensive!
As for the Hardware, I like the looks of the EeePC by Asus and think that this less powerful 900mhz hardware with more effective operating systems would bring computing back to it's home domain.
Wouldn't the best way forward be to ensure compatabilty of the old Amigas through emulation and standalone new Amiga OS adapted for the current hardware available?
b.t.w
I had a 1200 tower and A4000(the 4000 was cool) but these were big boxes! back then I sold both for about 40 quid, ach.. little did I know what prices would be now, and the popularity of the Amiga! doh! :)
As for the name, I would evolve that one too, to avoid the likes of Amiga inclined (inclined to do nothing!)
:-?
Maybe something like Amika, or similar :-D
blah.
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The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for. It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to? Why should Joe Hobbyist bother with it when there's Linux and BSD around? There's no killer apps for it, you can't use a modern web browser or open a Word document (yes I know Word '97, but lately everyone I work with has been sending docx files and try opening a Word 04 file with tables, comments and the like) and there's no company or organisation supporting it.
The Amiga community is in a sad shape, the fact that even with Moana available we can't make OS4 work on a Mac Mini shows how far we have sunk in terms of skill.
(http://forums.eu.atari.com/images/smilies/blah.gif)
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That's the thing! who need Word documents when you can easliy do it with a PC?
Look at the Iphone, Xbox or Wii and other Machines..
They have defined a market without compatabilty issues.
The serve the users adequatley for their needs.
I would not like to use Word or Excel on the Amiga because for me I can do it on a PC, that's why the niche computer market for me, internet/games/music would serve most users adequatly and Word is a pile of pants anyway!
Final Coppy II gave me what I needed. Dpaint 5, soundtracker and all my creative need were fullfilled by the Amiga, only it they stopped producing them so I had to use a PC by way of default, in the end, the mainstream can do there stuff I wanna my own :)
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@persia
Amiga's niche overlaps with Mac's niche but can go much further with broadcast quality animations (think pixar), and video authoring and editing.
With good development tools (which can target "Amiga Classic" (68K, for the UAE) and "Amiga Nuevo" (for the actual platform OS is running on) :), Amiga's (small) kernel can be very useful for both desktop and mobile devices.
However you twist and turn the issue, you end up with one question: where is the hardware and where are the drivers for that hardware that work with *any* Amiga OS? Lack of stable drivers is at the root of Vista disaster because Microsoft did not learn the lesson from Windows 95 (which was also a rollout disaster but coincided with "it is time to get some new machines" so few noticed the disaster with hardware incompatibility. At the time, I had a 486DX-33MHz and about $1 million dollars worth of memory in that machine (20 megs, when memory was priced like gold :) - and it still was not enough for Windows 95. It did not like the SCSI, it did not like the graphics card, it did not like the chipset (!?), so I ended up with a very expensive print server and a brand-spankin' new "Windows 95" machine which was a piece of crap (sluggish and occassionally driver-buggy). No wonder Apple insists on guarding its hardware like there is no tomorrow.
Interestingly, drivers are the hottest topic on AROS project. To push Amiga forward, we need to roll up our sleeves and write some drivers (for AROS) to support high-end components (such as those cool Voodoo cards cooled with two fans and 512MB RAM).
Mobile platform for Amiga is a project in its own right, possibly even more far-fetched than OS4 on Intel :)
AROS works, looks good, boots up in no time. Apps included in the VM distribution are very quick, hinting at great performance under the hood.
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persia wrote:
The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for. It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to?
Retro gamers.
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codenetfx wrote:
Interestingly, drivers are the hottest topic on AROS project. To push Amiga forward, we need to roll up our sleeves and write some drivers (for AROS) to support high-end components (such as those cool Voodoo cards cooled with two fans and 512MB RAM).
I'm sorry? Voodoo cards haven't been made for 10 years... a $15 ATI or Nvidia card from your local computer store will be many orders of magnitude more powerful!!!
AROS does all right for drivers... since the generic hardware drivers that come with AROS offer more than enough performance for any Apps currently available...
Mobile platform for Amiga is a project in its own right, possibly even more far-fetched than OS4 on Intel :)
Since there are no AmigaOS clones for the ARM CPU (at this time, I know there is a guy working on Compiling AROS for the ARM) and nothing about the Amiga's interface or architecture particularly lends itself to the mobile Arena... I really can't see why a mobile Amiga platform is particular attractive?
AROS works, looks good, boots up in no time. Apps included in the VM distribution are very quick, hinting at great performance under the hood.
It is more fun on real hardware :-)
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koaftder wrote:
persia wrote:
The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for. It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to?
Retro gamers.
Retro(amiga)gamers are a small and limited market.
We should consider the Amigas' strengths and capitalise on them. They are;-
Efficient AmigaOS, small, fast and adequate.
Known hardware, few incompatibilities from unknown hardware or drivers.
All we need is new hardware to replace ageing or dead hardware.
Amigas' should appeal to anyone who wants a system to work without trouble or a pile of manuals a metre high.
P.S don't mention the number of bookshelves you have filled with amiga books. :lol:
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A6000 wrote:
koaftder wrote:
persia wrote:
The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for. It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to?
Retro gamers.
Retro(amiga)gamers are a small and limited market.
But it's the only market open to the Amiga...
We should consider the Amigas' strengths and capitalise on them. They are;-
Efficient AmigaOS, small, fast and adequate.
Antiquated, unstable, insecure, single user, nonPOSIX and no modern software.
Known hardware, few incompatibilities from unknown hardware or drivers.
Stuck on 20 year old technology... it is going to appeal only to Retro Gamers at best.
All we need is new hardware to replace ageing or dead hardware.
Amigas' should appeal to anyone who wants a system to work without trouble or a pile of manuals a metre high.
But we are not going to appeal to anyone who wants to use a computer to do anything that one expects from a computer now.
P.S don't mention the number of bookshelves you have filled with amiga books. :lol:
:-?
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I agree, drivers are the big bugaboo, they don't exist for most modern technology. When have you last seen a non-USB or non-Firewire device outside the Amiga world. The lack of USB 2 and Firewire limit the speed you can actually move information from an external device to the Amiga.
Here's an example, I plug my camera into my Mac's firewire port and transfer the video, or I capture live, it doesn't matter. I can edit real time. I can feed it back out through my Apple TV which is hooked to my TV's HMDI port. I can rip video from a DVD, capture internet streaming video and mix and match.
The Amiga can do none of this. It's an anachronism, an analogue SDTV device in a digital HDTV world. The applications primitive at best, have you seen the features in Lightwave 3D v9? Truly Amazing.
My camera produces 12 MP Raw image files which I edit with Aperture quite easily, try that on an Amiga.
I really fail to see a niche for the Amiga outside retro games. My phone runs OS X, my personal music device Linux. You can't even drive a modern printer, how is Amiga OS going to drive a phone?
In the end this is why Amiga Inc is what it is, there's no market, it would take millions of man hours to make Amiga OS modern and then you'd end up with UAE to run the retro games that everyone likes.
Maybe, maybe, maybe the Amiga could be redesigned and upgraded to go against PSP, Wii and XBox, but I get the feeling that there are too many players there already.
It's too late. Amiga INcs programmers only know dotNet...
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Most people use a computer for word processing, email and internet access, the amiga can do this with some new software, programmers could write this stuff for the community, linux has no difficulty getting programmers to write open source or free software so why are amiga programmers so mercenary.
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A6000 wrote:
Most people use a computer for word processing, email and internet access, the amiga can do this with some new software,
??? The Amiga doesn't have these basic apps already, so why should anyone waste their time with it?
programmers could write this stuff for the community, linux has no difficulty getting programmers to write open source or free software so why are amiga programmers so mercenary.
If you can download Linux for free and it comes with everything one needs to do all the basic stuff a user would want to do why bother with the Amiga...?
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@ bloodline:
I am familiar with little-endian/big-endian issues since Z80 and 6502 era. It is a difficult problem (if not impossible) to resolve 100% at the binary level when transitioning to a big-endian platform.
Let's think about how critical or non-critical the interaction of 68k with x86 world really is. If you have compiler (or compilers) which can target one or the other environment, there is no issue. If single binary should run in both environments, we have to talk about universal binaries (another term from Apple's vocabulary).
If you want to write software that crosses the 68k-x86 boundary (for whatever reason), you'd have to integrate these applications as if they lived in two different memory spaces, two different CPUS, two different of everything. We are talking pipes, web services and god knows what else here. New APIs. New Library.
How many applications would do this? Probably none, and certainly no existing application running on Amiga OS would do it (they are binaries and don't know any better :).
We need 68k mainly for compatibility. The x86 environment is supposed to attract developers familiar with Amiga OS and APIs to develop *new* applications, while being able to run the old ones. Initially, development tools *for AROS* would be needed to jumpstart this. 68K environment also has limitations when it comes to 32 vs. 64-bit and this is another reason why it should be contained in its own "Classic" environment. Future platform must not be constrained with 32 bit.
What you pointed out about Apple and selected few killer apps is absolutely true. Mac OS X started out with very few apps but they were all very good. Apple also had Microsoft's support (with Office) and that means a lot in marketing terms.
Even if all these pieces were working *today*, I very much doubt that any corporate entity would embrace Amiga. Too many companies underestimated/misunderstood/burned/got-burned-with the platform that anyone would think twice before investing a ton of money into Amiga. This is the strongest argument for open source effort. With a good single video driver (video drivers are actually very good even today. You should take a look at "Doom" shipped with AROS) and single good audio driver, AROS would become a viable development platform.
Again, Apple is a good model here: they bake video and audio onto the motherboard and that's it. No hassle with umpteen drivers. When you think about it, Windows is the same; it works flawlessly on Lenovo laptops (for example) and falls on its face on cheap clones with questionable components.
68k platform is history. It is a 30-year old technology and it is a dead-end. PowerPC is also a dead-end in terms of future development. AMD and Intel are the only two companies committed to cranking out new hardware (boards and CPUS and chipsets) that you can rely on. The "only" thing standing between Amiga OS and a-hardware platform are suitable drivers and that is the most difficult part. Good news is that most popular pieces of hardware tend to be well documented (in terms of what they support and what the issues are).
Once everything is working, the question becomes "how is this any different than Mac or Windows?" Amiga would have to have siginificantly better bandwidth for graphics/video intensive development *and* multicore support to establish itself. As of today, Amiga OS does not support multiple cores. Starting next year, Apple will push OS X much stronger into multicore market with the new improvements.
Also, it would have to have better development tools and support from major software manufacturers (from games onward). It is a fairly tall order.
Last 20 years brought about a significant change to the marketplace: even high-end hardware is a commodity. However, as Apple showed, *making it all work together* isn't a commodity.
I keep mentioning Apple because they almost killed off Mac platform in the early 90s. Then Stevie came back and made it really sexy with flashy plastic and same crappy OS. Everyone bought into it. While everyone was busy admiring colorful plastic, Stevie was working on OS X.
Heck, first thing we need is some flashy case for the Amiga. Titanium-alloy thing that looks like it is moving at fast speeds. With only one red LED in the middle. If you put an Amiga back into the beige case, might as well trash it immediately.
Quote from bloodline:
68k is not a problem as long as the 68k programs are not allowed to interact freely with the x86 programs. That is why we want to take the approach of putting the 68k apps into their own little VM world of UAE and carefully control how much interaction they have with x86 AROS.
If we simply integrated the 68k emulator into the OS like MOS and AOS4, then the 68k apps would be allowed to "play around" with the x86 system structures... the problem is that on x86 data is stored : "DCBA" (little endien) and on the 68K the same data is stored: "ABCD" (big endien)... so 68k apps in a x86 environment will read the data the wrong way around, and thus fail.
Things get even more problematic when you use the 64bit x86 verion of AROS (which is probably more advanced now than the 32bit x86 version).. where the 68k apps have no concept of 64bits at all (no 68k Amiga software is 64bit compatible) and wouldn't work even if the x86 was big endien!
All my x86 machines are 64bit now...
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I wouldn't dismiss the retro gamers. There are lots of folks who love to drag out older stuff they've never seen before and rock those games. My cousin who was born in '94 has an NES, genesis and a c64 and he loves those games. Stuff he definitely didn't grow up around.
I went to one of those thrift/retro hip stores in Raleigh a few weeks ago. I saw a bunch of teenagers pining over an amiga 500 playing lemmings.
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bloodline wrote:
We should consider the Amigas' strengths and capitalise on them. They are;-
Efficient AmigaOS, small, fast and adequate.
Antiquated, unstable, insecure, single user, nonPOSIX and no modern software.
Hi bloodline,
Antiquated? Can you explain that?
Single user? YES single user!!! Who brain washed you? Because bill gates SAYS "multi-user is da bomb"??? Single user is WRONG/FORBIDDEN/BLASPHEMY? I must have missed that memo.
NonPosix? Why do I want "posix", okay, what is "posix" and why do I need it? Never needed it before. (At least I don't think so.)
Who can make modern SW on a computer that's too slow to run it? A 68000 can encode and decode MP3, BUT it's not FAST ENOUGH to. (Ray tracing was slow, BUT Amiga COULD do it. Doesn't mean that, "oh it takes four hours to make a frame, guess we'll leave it to people who own mainframes in their garage.") If there was a 400 MHz 68000, it's probably enough to do it. Motorola stopped making faster 68000 CPUs, so we don't have fast Amigas. An Amiga 2000 could play MP3 too (with no accelerator card!!!). If there was a 700 MHz 6502, an Apple ][ probably could too!
Make modern HW available, and the old SW may be fast enough to do anything that is possible today, even unaltered.
NatAmi60 --- "for great justice!!!! - AYBABTU :-D :-D :-D
bloodline wrote:
Known hardware, few incompatibilities from unknown hardware or drivers.
Stuck on 20 year old technology... it is going to appeal only to Retro Gamers at best.
All we need is new hardware to replace ageing or dead hardware.
Amigas' should appeal to anyone who wants a system to work without trouble or a pile of manuals a metre high.
But we are not going to appeal to anyone who wants to use a computer to do anything that one expects from a computer now.
Well, we are a couple notches below, even with NatAmi60, but it's a better system, that's why we're going that way.... Also, NatAmi60 is NOT the highest level that can be achived, the MHz can still go higher, and we WILL be in their league then, but with smaller OS, smaller productivity SW size, quick responsive feel, etc. etc.
And just general "fun" factor, it's hard to explain.
Macintoshes are more like an appliance now, a refrigerator or microwave oven. PCs are incomplete hodge-podges. Never know if it will be reliable, and you can't manipulate things without them just stop working. Linux, hard to fathom, and constantly in revision, trying to keep up with drivers eternally.
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Atheist wrote:
bloodline wrote:
We should consider the Amigas' strengths and capitalise on them. They are;-
Efficient AmigaOS, small, fast and adequate.
Antiquated, unstable, insecure, single user, nonPOSIX and no modern software.
Hi bloodline,
Antiquated? Can you explain that?
The Entire architecture is based on 80's technology, a few examples;
1. The User interface is based on clipped layers... Modern UIs are based upon 3D surfaces.
2. The Graphics subsystem is based on a palette concept, at 4:3 ratio at very low resolutions and bit mapped gfx... Mondern GFX systems are based on Hi/True Colour, at industry standard ratios, wide screen and there is a move to resolution independent vector gfx.
3. The Amiga Audio subsystem (AHI too) is totally unsuited to modern professional requirements... please read up on "Core Audio" as an example a modern system...
4. The programming architecture is totally outdated... a modern system is object oriented, the advantages of OOP in system programming are too numerous to list here... but, read up on OSX's "Cocoa Framework" and "NeXTStep" to see how modern systems work.
Single user? YES single user!!! Who brain washed you?
I like multiuser systems, I can have a public account, for daily use, a private account for my sensitive work and a root account for adjusting system settings. Each account is totally encrypted. if I loose my Laptop or it gets stolen the data on the private account would be safe. Keeping the Root account secure means no malicious programs/viruses and user can adjust my settings or install anything. it keeps my machine safe and secure.
I also have a separate account for my brothers to use when they visit, they can mess it up, break it , have the settings anyway they like... install any crap they like, and all their games etc... and it it all nicely contained in that account... should, I wish I could delete it on one go.
I can also log into my laptop while one account it in action, as another user and run it as two separate machines... remotely or locally...
Because bill gates SAYS "multi-user is da bomb"??? Single user is WRONG/FORBIDDEN/BLASPHEMY? I must have missed that memo.
I've never run any Windows system as Multiuser... so no... my first multiuser system was Linux... where my girlfriend and myself had two separate accounts. Now I run MacOS OSX.
NonPosix? Why do I want "posix", okay, what is "posix" and why do I need it? Never needed it before. (At least I don't think so.)
If you want to use any ports from Linux/Unix and 99% of open source software... Then yes, you want POSIX. AmigaOS can't support the fork() function so it can't really support POSIX very well.
Who can make modern SW on a computer that's too slow to run it?
No one.
A 68000 can encode and decode MP3, BUT it's not FAST ENOUGH to. (Ray tracing was slow, BUT Amiga COULD do it. Doesn't mean that, "oh it takes four hours to make a frame, guess we'll leave it to people who own mainframes in their garage.")
:-?
If there was a 400 MHz 68000, it's probably enough to do it. Motorola stopped making faster 68000 CPUs, so we don't have fast Amigas.
The 68k architecture is not suited to HI-Speed operation... hence Motorola moving to the Coldfire, for future "68k" development.
An Amiga 2000 could play MP3 too (with no accelerator card!!!). If there was a 700 MHz 6502, an Apple ][ probably could too!
No it can't. To play an MP3 you need to decode it in realtime, no 68000 could ever do that. My 68040 could do some weird low quality thing... but it was horrible. the 6502 can't scale to 700Mhz, the design doesn't allow it.
Make modern HW available, and the old SW may be fast enough to do anything that is possible today, even unaltered.
NatAmi60 --- "for great justice!!!! - AYBABTU :-D :-D :-D
bloodline wrote:
Known hardware, few incompatibilities from unknown hardware or drivers.
Stuck on 20 year old technology... it is going to appeal only to Retro Gamers at best.
All we need is new hardware to replace ageing or dead hardware.
Amigas' should appeal to anyone who wants a system to work without trouble or a pile of manuals a metre high.
But we are not going to appeal to anyone who wants to use a computer to do anything that one expects from a computer now.
Well, we are a couple notches below, even with NatAmi60, but it's a better system, that's why we're going that way.... Also, NatAmi60 is NOT the highest level that can be achived, the MHz can still go higher, and we WILL be in their league then, but with smaller OS, smaller productivity SW size, quick responsive feel, etc. etc.
You are just speculating you don't know, and your lack of technical knowledge does not allow you to speculate.
And just general "fun" factor, it's hard to explain.
No, you confuse "fun" with "familiarity". Modern systems are complex and powerful, far beyond the Amiga... but you would have to put the effort in to learn them.
Macintoshes are more like an appliance now, a refrigerator or microwave oven.
Computers are ment to be appliances. Very multipurpose appliances, you switch it on and it does it's job. No messing around, no pain, no struggle.
PCs are incomplete hodge-podges. Never know if it will be reliable, and you can't manipulate things without them just stop working.
XP SP2 has made the situation much better. I admit though, this did cause me problems in my work and thus I moved to MacOSX.
Linux, hard to fathom, and constantly in revision, trying to keep up with drivers eternally.
I thought you liked "fun"?
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bloodline wrote:
Atheist wrote:
An Amiga 2000 could play MP3 too (with no accelerator card!!!). If there was a 700 MHz 6502, an Apple ][ probably could too!
No it can't. To play an MP3 you need to decode it in realtime, no 68000 could ever do that. My 68040 could do some weird low quality thing... but it was horrible. the 6502 can't scale to 700Mhz, the design doesn't allow it.
An Amiga at only 7.14 MHz could play an MP3 if:
1. It had 256 Megs of ram, and decoded (by that I mean decompresses it) the file into ram: (disk)
2. 256 Megs of ram is not possible ONLY because of the 16/32 bit nature of the 68000 CPU itself, not an AOS issue.
3. It would need 256 Megs of chip ram. Not possible STRICTLY due to the OCS not being able to control more than 512K of ram.
4. AOS can't play MP3, so the file then should have to be converted to a file that OCS could play. Store it in ram: disk, and load into chip ram and play.
Voila!
- edit -
Hmmm, I guess it couldn't get to 44 KHz though. :-(
- edit -
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Atheist wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Atheist wrote:
An Amiga 2000 could play MP3 too (with no accelerator card!!!). If there was a 700 MHz 6502, an Apple ][ probably could too!
No it can't. To play an MP3 you need to decode it in realtime, no 68000 could ever do that. My 68040 could do some weird low quality thing... but it was horrible. the 6502 can't scale to 700Mhz, the design doesn't allow it.
An Amiga at only 7.14 MHz could play an MP3 if:
1. It had 256 Megs of ram, and decoded (by that I mean decompresses it) the file into ram: (disk)
2. 256 Megs of ram is not possible ONLY because of the 16/32 bit nature of the 68000 CPU itself, not an AOS issue.
3. It would need 256 Megs of chip ram. Not possible STRICTLY due to the OCS not being able to control more than 512K of ram.
4. AOS can't play MP3, so the file then should have to be converted to a file that OCS could play. Store it in ram: disk, and load into chip ram and play.
Voila!
Playing is not the same as offline decoding.
1. The amount of RAM is irrelevant. An average 3.5min MP3 decoded to a Stereo 8bit 20Khz IFF audio file would only take around 10megs or ram.
2. The 68K address space allows for 4GigaBytes... the 68000 and the 68020 only have 24 address alines which limits them to 16meg addressable.
3. What does OCS have to do with this?
4. Do you know how long it would take for a 7Mhz 68k to decode an MP3 to an 8bit audio file? And given the lack of FPU... I would suggest days... You like to wait several days with your A2000 doing nothing but decoding an MP3 to a crappy 8bit 20Khz sample just before you can play it?
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4. Do you know how long it would take for a 7Mhz 68k to decode an MP3 to an 8bit audio file? And given the lack of FPU... I would suggest days... You like to wait several days with your A2000 doing nothing but decoding an MP3 to a crappy 8bit 20Khz sample just before you can play it?
You probably would prefer using fixed point math (FPU on 68k sucks). You can also (probably) tweak decoding algorithm to go faster at loss of quality.
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itix wrote:
4. Do you know how long it would take for a 7Mhz 68k to decode an MP3 to an 8bit audio file? And given the lack of FPU... I would suggest days... You like to wait several days with your A2000 doing nothing but decoding an MP3 to a crappy 8bit 20Khz sample just before you can play it?
You probably would prefer using fixed point math (FPU on 68k sucks). You can also (probably) tweak decoding algorithm to go faster at loss of quality.
I've used fixed point maths on an A500 to do some hi-speed 3d transformations... it worked really well... but I think the final audio quality would be horrible if were to use fixed point maths with a 16 bit precision.
But even then we are talking many many hours... I'm pretty sure...
-Edit-
I tried to run a test, using my A500 and amp072 from Aminet... but it needs the ixemul library.. and I simply don't have the motivation to set this up... any one else bothered?
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bloodline wrote:
Playing is not the same as offline decoding.
1. The amount of RAM is irrelevant. An average 3.5min MP3 decoded to a Stereo 8bit 20Khz IFF audio file would only take around 10megs or ram.
2. The 68K address space allows for 4GigaBytes... the 68000 and the 68020 only have 24 address alines which limits them to 16meg addressable.
3. What does OCS have to do with this?
4. Do you know how long it would take for a 7Mhz 68k to decode an MP3 to an 8bit audio file? And given the lack of FPU... I would suggest days... You like to wait several days with your A2000 doing nothing but decoding an MP3 to a crappy 8bit 20Khz sample just before you can play it?
Hi bloodline,
I thought that a file that big would HAVE to be in CHIP ram, and OCS can't control more than 512K. Also, the 68000 can't control more than 16 Megs, and in the case of OCS, max ram is 8.5 Megs. BUT, if there was a 68000 that has 32 bit pins in/out (NOT the 68020 core) and was working at 7.14 MHz it COULD play a converted, ram resident, MP3 file!
Are you sure 20 KHz is max playback?
Pretty good for an obsolete machine, huh?
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Atheist wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Playing is not the same as offline decoding.
1. The amount of RAM is irrelevant. An average 3.5min MP3 decoded to a Stereo 8bit 20Khz IFF audio file would only take around 10megs or ram.
2. The 68K address space allows for 4GigaBytes... the 68000 and the 68020 only have 24 address alines which limits them to 16meg addressable.
3. What does OCS have to do with this?
4. Do you know how long it would take for a 7Mhz 68k to decode an MP3 to an 8bit audio file? And given the lack of FPU... I would suggest days... You like to wait several days with your A2000 doing nothing but decoding an MP3 to a crappy 8bit 20Khz sample just before you can play it?
Hi bloodline,
I thought that a file that big would HAVE to be in CHIP ram, and OCS can't control more than 512K.
It requires little CPU time to stream from FastRAM to ChipRAM... and since the Audio file would be between 7 and 10 megs you would have to have it in FastRAM.
Also, the 68000 can't control more than 16 Megs, and in the case of OCS, max ram is 8.5 Megs. BUT, if there was a 68000 that has 32 bit pins in/out (NOT the 68020 core) and was working at 7.14 MHz it COULD play a converted, ram resident, MP3 file!
This is NOT playing the mp3 file... it is offline decoding it... and it would take forever.
Are you sure 20 KHz is max playback?
To be honest 20Khz is pushing it with the 68000. The absolute maximum is related to the Screen Refresh DMA... so normally that's about 28Khz... but with the streaming from FastRAM, I would expect to loose quite a bit of bandwidth.
Pretty good for an obsolete machine, huh?
No, absolutely as one would expect for such old hardware.
Anyway this is an irrelevant discussion. Since this thread is about the OS.
I have attempted to run amp072 on UAE with A500 settings (OS3.1 and ixemul.library 47.3 and the various math libraries) but the program keeps putting out an empty wav file, and will not play the audio at all (not even using the mono and the frequency div by 4 options). In short the 68k cannot do it.
Your theory has been tested, and does not work. -Edit- I can Email you an ADF set up for your own testing if you don't believe me.
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Hello!
I'm here again. :-)
Well, of course the Amiga is a hobbyist computer right now, or a hobby itself.
Please don't say: "I'm still using Amiga as the main computer for all of my tasks.", "I'm using my Amiga for taking care of my personal balance.", "I'm using my Amiga for editing my videos.".
Of course we can do all of this and more, but we are enthusiasts and we know how to cope with some problems and limitations we have on our system (sometimes we just not complain).
But speaking about Bob, the average user, he is not absolutely attracted by such a system, nor he will abandon his PC with Windows or Mac for the Amiga.
If you think that the main aim is stealing some quotes from the Windows and Mac user base, well, it's better for you to open your eyes on your Amiga and its situation.
This would be blindness and pure madness! We are not in the end of the 80s, nor in the 90s.
We should focus on maintaining the present (active) user base and maybe improving it regaining some "old" users that left for other systems: they would not abandon their present system completely (either Windows, Mac or Linux), but if the Amiga option is viable, not so costly and "positively seen", he/she will "try again".
But how could this be achived?
I won't stop saying this: we need a clear direction where to go, an official way forward, or better, "a widely recognized way" by the entire community (since Amiga Inc. has to be forgotten - I deleted its web site from my bookmarks as well).
That was the reason because I liked the idea of having Amiga OS 4.0 for 68k: it's an official release, working on real Amigas and under emulation, and so wide user base (so no MorphOS splits).
But during discussions we discovered that this won't happen for sure, as presently the lastest "official" Amiga OS, working on (few) PPC platforms is at a deadline: no Amiga Inc., no Hyperion, no future in this direction.
Maybe you can run OS 4.0 on MacMini, but this is just a nice geek trick and satisfaction (done with some stolen files AFAIK), and really not a way for going on.
What's "going on"?
Going on is new OS releases, new software releases, new hardware.
In this moment Amiga is really "retrocomputing", and not "present computing", and despite I like soooo much retrocomputing (C-64 rulez! :))) ), this is something Amiga doesn't deserve.
It (or she :) ) still has some hidden powers for the making a better future in computing, something which is somehow even difficult to clearly explain... we just want to express our view about computing!
For what we discussed about it seems that AROS is the only hope for getting a new OS release for a wide user base, even if not in short time, with potential for evolve.
Once the 3.9 compatibility is got (at function level), we have a starting point and we can improve from there.
When hopefully UAE will be transparently integrated inside of it (in a VM or whatever), for getting Amiga legacy stuff to work, it could be released in various flavours: the main one (as from most AROS supporters) x86, 68k and PPC.
x86 for running the system on off-the-shelf components, on huge computing power machines; this would permit an easy "try again" to ex-Amiga users.
68k for running it on real Amigas (so without UAE) and hopefully Natami systems.
In this way the hardcore Amiga user will recognise AROS as an official release, and feel the continuity of the system, not switching to a completely new one.
And for Natami this would provide the system a join up into community, promoting it as a viable way for those who like so much OS and custom hardware integration and want to upgrade (this would need some cooperation between AROS developers and Natami responsibles of course, but could be done).
PPC flavour would be good for those who spent thousands euros on their systems in these years.
Would be nice to see inside the development environment of AROS, a clean and elegant way to compile your application for all the available platforms with just a few mouse clicks (maybe it's not as easy as it seems).
With this you may say that only "old people" from the 80s and early 90s will be interested and will use the system: well, we cannot ask for more than this right now.
Once we reached a better situation (if so), we'll see how to improve more.
Hear u 'n da future!
Luca "OgniX" \8^)
P.S. Please don't say "Please, port Amiga OS on the iPhone." otherwise I would ask "Port the Amiga OS on my kitty."!
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Lets not forget about MOS my friend. It's out now for sale on (slow, but nice) hardware you can actually buy. In a few weeks we'll have it for our ppc mac minis.
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koaftder wrote:
In a few weeks we'll have it for our ppc mac minis.
Sorry for being harsh but: Is this fact or rumor?
/A
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@ koaftder:
MOS? PPC? Please give us more details.
For the readers of this thread, I have to qualify my interest in Amiga as somewhat experimental: writing applications with Amiga APIs (Intuition) is not a very difficult task (in C, if you have Amiga Kernel/Hardware/Intuition manuals) and with a UI framework (such as Zune in AROS) it should be even more straightforward. (Note to AROS: Name "Zune" is very unfortunate). I also have some experience with Objective-C, another great application and UI framework. In my recent posts, I mentioned AROS as a possible platform to keep Amiga's application framework alive. 68k development (in assembler) is a waste of time going forward as much as I hate to admit that.
Whether Amiga can do MP3 or not is a question of hardware. Every *modern* sound card has a powerful DSP which can decompress MP3 in real time. 68K processors have no place in the digital-lifestyle world. Amiga OS does not have to "run" on 68K to be an Amiga OS. However, Amiga OS has to have *real* multi-tasking with a very small memory footprint. Anyone who wrote software on Amiga knows how elegantly a multi-threaded application can be implemented and how efficient it can be. The next level would be the multiprocessor support. Do you think Hyperion and Amiga Inc will add multiprocessor support? Of course not. This could be the single biggest advantage of a future Amiga OS - automatic scalability across all available cores. Intel is planning a release of 80+ core CPU in a few years and this is the direction all *great* OSes will be going. Applications will also have to change from single-CPU model to a multicore model to take advantage of new hardware.
My point here is that sticking to something that's been out there for 20+ years is very limiting. One has to take what is portable (application framework, efficient kernel) and extend it for new hardware to *maintain* great performance.
Retro gaming should always remain a part of Amiga OS and UAE is excellent for that. However, future applications should be written for a new Amiga OS.
I am trying to figure out how much time I can give to AROS project and where could I "jump in". I also wonder how many people out there are thinking the same.
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seems like the thread died just as it got interesting :)
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@arnljot:
Maybe this thread just quieted down. :)
To keep Amiga alive, new software releases are necessary - for the 68K platform. Since UAE runs under Windows, Linux (Mac also?), there is plenty of hardware to enjoy "Amiga experience" on even today.
The real question is, what kind of applications have a market for Amiga? Games only? Video/audio processing applications? Productivity software? If Linux has such a broad user base, there is no reason why Linux+UAE should not have a broad user base. Games alone are the reason to "switch." Given the nature of software market for Amiga (abandonware in digital format - no floppies for most part), piracy would most certainly be an issue to a degree.
As I mentioned before, Amiga has some options today, although it seems that it has none. AROS is one possibility, Linux+UAE/Windows+UAE/Mac+UAE another. NatAmi is also a possibility but there is no timeline on that project yet. Minimig looks very good although it is not clear to me if that's just a motherboard or a fully functioning A500-clone.
Yes, "real hardware" is "missing" but the experience of every platform out there is *very* software-driven. Vista is a good example. You can have the best machine to run it on, and people will still perceive Vista as second-rate because of its quirks.
Although I mentioned before that 68K software development is not the best way forward, software is written in C and could be targeted to 68K or whatever other platform. Since UAE has a 68K emulator built in, this is not a showstopper. However, for a New Wave of software packages, Amiga would have to step out of the 68k shell.
Would it be possible to run Firefox or StarOffice on Amiga (at least in theory)? Very likely, but limitations of 68K architecture remain a constraint.
Which brings me to another thought: what if 68K emulation in UAE allowed for a bigger address space, with either extended command set or an intelligent memory manager?
In this case, 68K language would become something like IL in .NET (low-level language which allows just in time compilation). 68K assembler even looks like a higher-level language :) NatAmi project seems to be using same or similar approach. With memory bounds extended, UAE really could become a new Amiga Operating System in its own right which would run on top of the Linux/Windows/Mac platform.
Sam
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I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity. There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.
In a way I think AROS provides a real option for the future. AmigaDos is closed source, if KMOS win they will bury the Amiga forever and we will be without a future. Even if Hyperion win they're going to lock into PPC, which means few options and higher prices and a limited future. With AROS you have a chance to break free of special hardware and closed source.
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persia wrote:
I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity. There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.
I always thought PPC was a mistake. Sure there were some performance advantages over x86 at the time, but Amiga went PPC mainly because they wanted to create a closed-hardware design, where AmigaOS4 wouldn't run easily on generic x86 hardware, This was ofcourse designed to maximize profits for the hardware developers. It helped that there was a very anti-intel attitude held by most Amigans at the time, meaning they didn't need to be convinced to go PPC.
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stefcep2 wrote:
persia wrote:
I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity. There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.
I always thought PPC was a mistake. Sure there were some performance advantages over x86 at the time, but Amiga went PPC mainly because they wanted to create a closed-hardware design, where AmigaOS4 wouldn't run easily on generic x86 hardware, This was ofcourse designed to maximize profits for the hardware developers. It helped that there was a very anti-intel attitude held by most Amigans at the time, meaning they didn't need to be convinced to go PPC.
Actually The PPC made perfect sense in about 1996/97... where is was more powerful than the x86, and produced less heat for a given CPU fabrication process... By 1999, it was on shaky ground... both Motorola and IBM were having problems moving it to better fab processes... and by 2001, the very idea of the PPC was crazy... note that this is about the time when Apple started to maintain an x86 build.
You are correct, the hope of A Inc. with the PPC was to lock devs into a hardware platform, not for any technical advantages... instead it killed the platform dead.
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persia wrote:
I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity. There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.
I always thought PPC was a mistake. Sure there were some performance advantages over x86 at the time, but Amiga went PPC mainly because they wanted to create a closed-hardware design, where AmigaOS4 wouldn't run easily on generic x86 hardware, This was ofcourse designed to maximize profits for the hardware developers. It helped that there was a very anti-intel attitude held by most Amigans at the time, meaning they didn't need to be convinced to go PPC.
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bloodline wrote:
and by 2001, the very idea of the PPC was crazy... note that this is about the time when Apple started to maintain an x86 build.
I think I should add that unlike AmigaOS, OS X has always been designed as platform neutral. NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP were 68k and x86 before they were PPC, and Darwin has always been available for x86 too.
What really happened around 2001 (although there has been speculation that actually, this is not really the case) is that someone was actively pulling these parts together and tidying up. The actual groundwork, the real work, was already done because the NeXT engineers were sensible, forward-thinking guys (if only that were true elsewhere in the industry)
Also note, that unlike Windows, as time has gone on, OS X has become less and less compatible, dropping legacy stuff as it has gone on. With quite a lot of success. There is even speculation that Snow Leopard will drop PPC compatibility, as part of it's drive to be mean and lean. This simply doesn't happen elsewhere. For example, the system I'm currently employed to replace, was originally a Windows 3.1 app.
So to bring this back on topic, AmigaOS was never designed to be independent of the hardware, in particular the CPU and doing that kind of work will take a massive effort. Secondly, to really move a platform to different hardware there has to be sacrifices made to legacy compatibility to really produce anything worthwhile. This just could never properly happen on the Amiga. 99% of the software out there will never be replaced.
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uncharted wrote:
bloodline wrote:
and by 2001, the very idea of the PPC was crazy... note that this is about the time when Apple started to maintain an x86 build.
I think I should add that unlike AmigaOS, OS X has always been designed as platform neutral. NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP were 68k and x86 before they were PPC, and Darwin has always been available for x86 too.
What really happened around 2001 (although there has been speculation that actually, this is not really the case) is that someone was actively pulling these parts together and tidying up. The actual groundwork, the real work, was already done because the NeXT engineers were sensible, forward-thinking guys (if only that were true elsewhere in the industry)
Well... that's what I said... am I having difficulty expressing myself today?
Is was around 2001 where Apple Engineers started to maintain an x86 build... that doesn't mean that Darwin didn't already exist on the x86... but it does mean that the x86 source tree is kept in sync with the PPC version.
Also note, that unlike Windows, as time has gone on, OS X has become less and less compatible, dropping legacy stuff as it has gone on. With quite a lot of success. There is even speculation that Snow Leopard will drop PPC compatibility, as part of it's drive to be mean and lean. This simply doesn't happen elsewhere. For example, the system I'm currently employed to replace, was originally a Windows 3.1 app.
I expect Snow Leopard will drop PPC support, it's nothing more than a streamlined version of Leopard... if you need to run Leopard on a PPC.. well then run Leopard :-)
I expect Leopard to be the last of the PPC OSs from Apple... the next one OS X 10.7 "Mange Ridden Tabby", will be x86 only...
So to bring this back on topic, AmigaOS was never designed to be independent of the hardware, in particular the CPU and doing that kind of work will take a massive effort. Secondly, to really move a platform to different hardware there has to be sacrifices made to legacy compatibility to really produce anything worthwhile. This just could never properly happen on the Amiga. 99% of the software out there will never be replaced.
All very true...
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bloodline wrote:
Well... that's what I said... am I having difficulty expressing myself today?
Is was around 2001 where Apple Engineers started to maintain an x86 build... that doesn't mean that Darwin didn't already exist on the x86... but it does mean that the x86 source tree is kept in sync with the PPC version.
Don't stress mate, I was elaborating on the situation, not disagreeing with you. :-) OS X is more than Darwin (or BSD with a pretty windows manager as some around here like to call it), and the point I was trying to elaborate was that a large chunk of other stuff was already x86 as well and that it wasn't a huge upheaval to maintain.
There is some indication that the whole "started in 2001" thing is bowl-locks anyway, and that there has always been an x86 build.
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uncharted wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Well... that's what I said... am I having difficulty expressing myself today?
Is was around 2001 where Apple Engineers started to maintain an x86 build... that doesn't mean that Darwin didn't already exist on the x86... but it does mean that the x86 source tree is kept in sync with the PPC version.
Don't stress mate, I was elaborating on the situation, not disagreeing with you. :-)
Deep breaths... they are not out to get me...
OS X is more than Darwin (or BSD with a pretty windows manager as some around here like to call it), and the point I was trying to elaborate was that a large chunk of other stuff was already x86 as well and that it wasn't a huge upheaval to maintain.
There is some indication that the whole "started in 2001" thing is bowl-locks anyway, and that there has always been an x86 build.
Makes for a nice story though... and Apple is good at selling stories!
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Apple's revival is based on Stevie's Return (to the Dragon's Nest) and purchase of NEXT. NEXT OS was a decade ahead of its time when it came out (around the same time when Amiga started making waves). Does this sound familiar? It was based on, gasp, 68K architecture but designed in a platform-independent way because it grew out of FreeBSD (Mach). Stevie was taking advantage of open source before anyone else knew what it meant *and* he was keeping the OS portable. Portability and clean design (software and hardware) are at the heart of Apple's philosophy. I am by no means a hard-core Apple fan, but I have learned a lot from them :) and their products.
As of OS 4 (and 4.1 if it is really in the works), I tend to ignore it because it does not offer any tangible advantage over OS 3.9. PPC is a dead platform and I do not intend to throw a lot of money after an obsolete Blizzard/Cyberstorm card. Instead, I will just buy another Macbook Pro because I can actually *use* it. Amiga in its present situation, let's face it, is merely a curiosity from the 68K era. With a lot of games :) Productivity applications seem very dated. Platform is largely without support from a major corporate entity. This is why it is so puzzling to me that AROS did not take stronger hold. But, not all things Amiga make sense all the time :)
Can someone post a short list of OS 4/4.1 advantages over OS 3.9? PPC card costs about as much as a half (!) of a top-of-the-line MacBook Pro and I *really* want to know the *real* price of the upgrade. For a monitor connection, I found a great RGB-to-SCART cable which produces a very nice picture on somewhat expensive LCD TV. The "good picture" alone will cost you about $500 on Amiga (with or without flickerfixer witchcraft). Talk about having a choice how to burn five Benjamins.
In another post, I wrote that Amiga's pricing was always an issue. It was just too expensive towards its "demise date" -in comparison with competition. I don't know about others on this forum, but I do look to spend a *reasonable* amount on hardware/software (for selfish and business reasons). This is why I did not buy a Mac G3/G4 when it was released, but much later when it was a bit vintaged. Mac G3/G4 machines offered little more than a colorful plastic shell, with the same sluggish OS. I understand that Apple had to do what it had to do to keep money flowing in for further development, at the time when Woz was too busy with Kathy Griffin and writing his book which left no time to help out with motherboards.
For my money, OS X Leopard is the first *serious* OS from Apple in years because, for once, its timing was perfect, platform fast and secure for the near and mid-term future (going multicore) and SDK simply the best out there. Nothing on IntelMac is half-a$$ed, semi-done or experimental. It is the real deal, the pinnacle of decades of semi-finished, very cool and underpowered products. Stevie is a genius because he made so many mistakes along the way and capitalized on them while keeping the Cool going.
The biggest issue with Amiga may not be the hardware but software. Without a software market, there are no new applications and no need for new hardware. It is a vicious circle, a catch-22 in a Devil's Kitchen (in einer Teufelskueche - this is just for bloodline :)
If German (electrical) engineering could not save Amiga hardware platform, who can? German industrial design saved Apple because it provided a template for the "new" Mac look (of which I have "Braun's" originals laying around in my home). But they are not easy to "copy".
Did anyone manage to copy the BMW ("beemer")? How about a Porsche? PPC Blizzard/Cyberstorm cards? You get my point :)
And we know that Stevie even enjoys German-made washing machines because they have such a cool user interface.
Real artists ship. And steal. In quantities. Amiga needs a good "thief". It also needs to move out of her (evil) dad's basement after all these years, get a haircut, fake boobs , whatever it takes to get "stolen."
:-D
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codenetfx wrote:
Apple's revival is based on Stevie's Return (to the Dragon's Nest) and purchase of NEXT. NEXT OS was a decade ahead of its time when it came out (around the same time when Amiga started making waves). Does this sound familiar? It was based on, gasp, 68K architecture but designed in a platform-independent way because it grew out of FreeBSD (Mach). Stevie was taking advantage of open source before anyone else knew what it meant *and* he was keeping the OS portable. Portability and clean design (software and hardware) are at the heart of Apple's philosophy. I am by no means a hard-core Apple fan, but I have learned a lot from them :) and their products.
Steve just did with NeXT as he has always done... He has a possibly unique ability to see which bit of the latest technology is actually useful for peoples lives... picked up the latest tech and put together a great system...
As of OS 4 (and 4.1 if it is really in the works), I tend to ignore it because it does not offer any tangible advantage over OS 3.9. PPC is a dead platform and I do not intend to throw a lot of money after an obsolete Blizzard/Cyberstorm card. Instead, I will just buy another Macbook Pro because I can actually *use* it. Amiga in its present situation, let's face it, is merely a curiosity from the 68K era. With a lot of games :) Productivity applications seem very dated. Platform is largely without support from a major corporate entity. This is why it is so puzzling to me that AROS did not take stronger hold. But, not all things Amiga make sense all the time :)
The answer to this is twofold...
1. You don't have to justify AROS... With your Expensive custom PPC board and expensive ported OS... you've shelled out a lot of cash... after that there is no way you can admit your are wrong about your choice. With AROS, no such emotional investment is required.
2. The flaws in the idea of AmigaOS making a return show up more clearly with AROS than on a PPC... Firstly it becomes clear how little NG software is actually available and in fact likely to appear... You realize that the only thing you really need the Amiga for is old games (which need the Hardware not the OS... and thus UAE is better) and one or two old 68k apps... which run brilliantly in UAE for free... Secondly, limitations in AmigaOS design show up... why bother running a single user, no memory protection, non posix OS when you can run a modern OS for free...
The biggest issue with Amiga may not be the hardware but software. Without a software market, there are no new applications and no need for new hardware. It is a vicious circle, a catch-22 in a Devil's Kitchen (in einer Teufelskueche - this is just for bloodline :)
Vielen Dank.
If German (electrical) engineering could not save Amiga hardware platform, who can? German industrial design saved Apple because it provided a template for the "new" Mac look (of which I have "Braun's" originals laying around in my home). But they are not easy to "copy".
Did anyone manage to copy the BMW ("beemer")? How about a Porsche? PPC Blizzard/Cyberstorm cards? You get my point :)
And we know that Stevie even enjoys German-made washing machines because they have such a cool user interface.
Well, Jonathan Ive... is really rather English... but yeah, he has a "Germanisch" eye for form and lines :-)
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@ bloodline
Jonathan Ive was looking at products designed by Braun (German company, makes appliances) back in the 60s and early 70s. Virtually ALL Apple's designs (casing) for G3/G4/G5 iMacs, iPod are not just inspired but almost straight copies of Braun's timeless design. If you google "apple design braun" or "apple design bauhaus" I am sure you will find a lot of interesting articles. Braun has drawn its inspiration from Bauhaus - THE school of industrial design from all the way back in the 1930s. It is said that even legendary Dr. Dipl. Ing Ferdinand Porsche has "stolen" some curves from Bauhaus. He did however improve on it by punching holes in the metal, to reduce weight without sacrificing structural strength of the design. Many of these sources and articles are available in out-of-print books and in German only.
Apple's G5 desktops feature "punctured metal", first featured on early Braun/Grundig/Telefunken AMFM radio receivers. Does anyone even remember Grundig and Telefunken?
Form und Funktion - das Grundprinzip der Bauhaus-Designschule. In Chicago, everywhere you look you can see great examples of same influences applied to architecture, particularly in designs by Frank Lloyd Wright. Not to mention stunning Art Deco designs :)
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codenetfx wrote:
@ bloodline
Jonathan Ive was looking at products designed by Braun (German company, makes appliances) back in the 60s and early 70s. Virtually ALL Apple's designs (casing) for G3/G4/G5 iMacs, iPod are not just inspired but almost straight copies of Braun's timeless design. If you google "apple design braun" or "apple design bauhaus" I am sure you will find a lot of interesting articles. Braun has drawn its inspiration from Bauhaus - THE school of industrial design from all the way back in the 1930s. It is said that even legendary Dr. Dipl. Ing Ferdinand Porsche has "stolen" some curves from Bauhaus. He did however improve on it by punching holes in the metal, to reduce weight without sacrificing structural strength of the design. Many of these sources and articles are available in out-of-print books and in German only.
Apple's G5 desktops feature "punctured metal", first featured on early Braun/Grundig/Telefunken AMFM radio receivers. Does anyone even remember Grundig and Telefunken?
Form und Funktion - das Grundprinzip der Bauhaus-Designschule. In Chicago, everywhere you look you can see great examples of same influences applied to architecture, particularly in designs by Frank Lloyd Wright. Not to mention stunning Art Deco designs :)
Trust me, you are preaching to the choir here :lol:
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I may be "preaching to the choir" but I am still trying to figure out why Amiga OS is stuck in 68k world (and PPC world) when Linux (for example) has little trouble attracting people to further develop the platform. Had it not been for UAE (and WinUAE in particular), Amiga would be in an even worse shape.
For now, Amiga's future depends on UAE and AROS - both open source projects.
I am also trying to find out how Amiga Inc. and Hyperion GmbH employees are making it when they do not have a large market. In other words, I am trying to understand the business model behind companies who have cornered themselves out of the market and continue to work on a software product for which nobody (at least it seems that way) is developing software anymore and for which there is little or no hardware to run it on.
There are still two pieces of vaporware to discuss: AmigaAnywhere and OS 5 (which should be "better than OS X and run on any hardware platform"). Amiga Inc. even hired some guy (it says so on the home page) who wrote a software development IDE which runs under OS 4. Again, I am trying to understand how Amiga Inc and Hyperion can sustain themselves in the situation where there is no market for the OS and for Amiga. There is a lot of interest of course and there are, what, maybe few thousand PPC cards out there. Very puzzling.
I am sticking to OS 3.9. At some point I may even "retire" my Amiga collection for good. Yes, I have games but I am not really a gamer (hunter & gatherer. Or, in German, Jaeger und Sammler :) but more of a software afficionado :) The PPC thing reminds me of collecting expensive art pieces: you spend a lot of money on it and hang it on the wall. Not the best thing to do if you like software.
Maybe the only worse thing to do would be to go to amiga.com/shop and browse a "random selection" for games for ... for frigging Windows OS :)))))
Amiga is through the Windows. There is your direction. However you slice it and dice it, Amiga goes through (or out of) the Window(s) :)))))
And we have two Bills to depend on; one is retired and chasing World Peace and the other cannot deliver anything but a press release.
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codenetfx wrote:
I may be "preaching to the choir" but I am still trying to figure out why Amiga OS is stuck in 68k world (and PPC world) when Linux (for example) has little trouble attracting people to further develop the platform. Had it not been for UAE (and WinUAE in particular), Amiga would be in an even worse shape.
It's hard to imagine the Amiga being in worse shape than it is now. A userbase that numbers in the high hundreds (maybe). Zero up to date applications. And I mean really and truly up to date. Holes in the OS big enough to throw a toxic building site in PA through.
But I digress: The Amiga OS is stuck in 68k world because of one legal issue after another. That and it died as a commercially viable platform in the early 1990's, thanks to C='s bankruptcy. All the good intentions and sincere wishing in the world won't make software companies - Electronic Arts, Microsoft, hell even AOL - stick around once the body corporate dies.
There's two ways forward: forget this nonsense. There's no "future" for the Amiga beyond fond memories and fun tinkering. Two: cut all ties with the remaining userbase - both ppc and 68k - and forge ahead with something completely different, running on x86, and only "Amiga" in that it has the name.
AInc in their typically half-assed way attempted number two and failed miserably. A slew of PoP motherboard manufacturers and they sided with the one that ... well, words fail me. Rather like A1's fail users.