Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: redrumloa on May 09, 2008, 12:15:01 AM
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I'm going to try to compile a running FAQ for the MMC Replay. Please post any information you can provide, I will update this FAQ as information comes in. Any and all info is welcome.
MMC Replay FAQ
Q: What product is this FAQ about?
A: MMC Replay NTSC
Q: What is the current ROM revision?
A: V0.54 (http://www.siliconsonic.de/t/bin/MMC_Replay_V054.zip)
Q: Does the SID player work?
A: Partially.
Q: Does the built in D64 plugin work?
A: Yes, slowly.
Q: What size SD/MMC cards does the MMC Replay support?
A: Any size available on the market, including SDHC. It has been reported that most plugins require the SD/MMC card formated to FAT16. (More info may be needed on this)
Q: Does the T64 plugin work?
A: The older v0.04 (http://c64.frequenzspeicher.de/downloads/t64plgin_v0.04.bin) plugin is reported to work perfect.
Q: Does the D64 Mounter work?
A: Partially. Single load games typically work. Multiload games work if standard kernal routines are used. Games with fastload or custom routines do not work.
Q: What is a DFI and why do I need it?
A: DFI is a disk image without the size restriction of D64, D81 etc. DFI was made popular with the IDE64 and many multiload games have been fixed for this image file type. A collection of DFI fixed, NTSC tested games is located HERE. (http://retrohackers.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=371)
Q: What hardware have software support on the Amiga style clockport built into the MMC Replay?
A: Silver Surfer fast serial card and RR-Net ethernet are supported in various programs. The MP3@64 MP3 hardware decoder should theoretically also work, but no longer mechanically fits with the new board layout.
Q: Have any machines been found to be incompatible?
A: The C-One with FPGA64 v.25 is reported not working.
Q: Does the MMC Replay work with a SuperCPU?
A: No, does not appear to be SuperCPU friendly. SCPU Initialization Error 06 is the error code.
Q: What are the main differences to Retro Replay (and MMC64 / Action Replay VI)?
A: MMC64 inegrated, 8 flash banks (instead of 2), memory expansion
Q: How are the filenames sorted?
A: In the order they are copied (no alphabetical sort)
Q: Does it come with case / can I use any standard size module case?
A: It does not come with a case typically, there are new cases available, but you need to cut out the holes for MMC card, reset & freeze buttons, led lights and Ethernet connection (if you use rr-net as well)
Q: Any list of tested, working T64(0.04 plug-in) images?
A: Attack of the Mutant Camels, Arcadia64
Q: Is there a list of verified MMC/SD cards with Fat16?
A: 64MB SanDisk SD, 2GB MMC Mobile Dual Voltage(with SD adaptor)
Contributors:
Amiga.org - redrumloa, Darrin, omnicron10, Wierdami, Wolfeman, Eddiie, Jupp3
comp.sys.cbm - Sixstringmonk, BruceMcF
Whew, this could get time consuming. How about filling in some of the blanks for me? help?
Upated August 17, 2008
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Here's the v0.04 plug-in:
http://c64.frequenzspeicher.de/downloads/t64plgin_v0.04.bin
That was a {bleep} to find again! I located it last time by blind luck and found this through a link on a German only site. Phew!
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I'll test some software and post the results when I get home again in 3 weeks. I did try quite a few games, but I can't swear now as to which were T64 and which were D64 so I'll check them all again.
I'm glad to see someone is doing this. :-)
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Thanks Darrin, I have added the info and given credit. :-)
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Tested MMC Replay on NTSC SX64. Works. No problems.
Tested MMC Replay on C-One with FPGA64 v.25 core PAL or NTSC. NOT WORKING - BA Signal mod completed.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cone_cores/message/266
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A quick question guys.
I have some D64 images that refuse to run even when I try and copy them back to a real floppy. The two in question are "Shadowfire 2: Enigma Force" and "Revenge of the Mutant Camels". Could this be because I'm trying them on a NTSC C128 (I used to play them as a kid on my PAL C64 and PAL C128). Or is it just the D64 images I'm using on the MMC Replay 64?
If either of you have images that do work them please email them to me. :-D
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Small update to SD/MMC compatability.
Keep the info coming guys :-)
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:bump:
Anyone have anything to add?
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redrumloa wrote:
:bump:
Anyone have anything to add?
Hi,
Sorry I didn't have time to test the programs on my last days off. I had my kids for the school holidays, my wife went into hospital and my spare time was spent fighting with my A4000.
I'll be home in 2 weeks and this time I'll test some D64 (Running straight from the SD Card and after copying to a floppy) and T64 files.
One thing I did manage to pick up was a 4 cart expander so I don't have to keep unplugging the MMC Replay to use Simons Basic - just flick the switches and turn it on.
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Theres a fast D64 plugin that writes to disk a lot quicker than the built in one. Maybe you could link to it. Id link to it myself but I cant remember where I got it :-?
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foleyjo wrote:
Theres a fast D64 plugin that writes to disk a lot quicker than the built in one. Maybe you could link to it. Id link to it myself but I cant remember where I got it :-?
Are there any other improvements? Does it work with more games?
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OK i found it
D64 writer plug-in (http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=21729)
It copy's a d64 back to disk in around 8 seconds. Apparently the kernel version is slower but more compatible
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Cheers. I'll check that out when I get home.
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MMC Replay, RR-Net, SCPU, and RAMLink
Hello,
The developer of C-Net 128 and I are looking at adding RR-Net support to the next version.
Starting with the Silversurfer first, as a place to start.
The problem is, the MMC Replay does not play nicely with the SCPU.
I am hoping this is only a BIOS issue and maybe we can work together to find a solution.
We only need to use the clock port.
As it is now, when everything is plugged in, I get a SCPU Initialization Error: 06.
Disable the SCPU and leave the RAMLink on, MMC Replay menus, but selecting F7 or F1 just responds with a blank, black screen.
disabling both of these the cart. will probably work, but if that is the case then it probably is not something that will be done.
If there is anything I can do to make this a reality, please let me know.
Thank you,
_________________
-Eddie
Telnet to my C= BBS! bbs.innercirclebbs.com
Port 23 = Centipede, Port 64000 = C-Net 128 Under Development.
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RE: Retro Replay, RR-Net, SCPU, and RAMLink
Same thing with this cartridge. I've read in places that disabling the Retro Replay still gives you access to the clock port in 128 mode.
I believe I have successfully tested the RR, SCPU, and RAMLink together and got to the READY. prompt. This is a good sign, yes? I have no idea if the clock port is accessable or not.
Would this be a better bet than the MMC Replay for our intentions?
Problem here is,
RR is out of production,
My RR-Net board seems to have died.
I only have 1 RR cart. for development and testing
I've spent a few hundred of dollars on MMC Replays and RR-Nets already and want it to work with this!
I'm looking to get these parts, but if they are no longer in production, its probably not worth it. (if you have any extra's send me a PM here and a price).
Thanks,
_________________
-Eddie
Telnet to my C= BBS! bbs.innercirclebbs.com
Port 23 = Centipede, Port 64000 = C-Net 128 Under Development.
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:bump:
Someone here help Eddiie? :-?
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foleyjo wrote:
OK i found it
D64 writer plug-in (http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=21729)
It copy's a d64 back to disk in around 8 seconds. Apparently the kernel version is slower but more compatible
But does it work on NTSC machines :getmad:
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I can't help Eddie, but I'm back in the USA now and I'll be testing some floppy and tape images on the MMC Replay starting Monday. If others will do teh same then we can post whether individual images work or not and if we get a conflict (someone has one that works while someone else doesn't) then we can perhaps distribute working images.
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I've been doing some research and testing since this post...
I can get MMCReplay to work, it just isn't SCPU friendly.
I get SCPU Initialization Error 06. God and Maurice only knows what that means. If we could get the definition of that error code, a fix might be doable.
As it is now, Eric is working on the ML to get the SilverSurfer working withouth the SCPU. He says it should be working within a week.
So, its not a crappy passthough port at all. Also, with Fotios' FB-Net card working with all of these things, this is probably most definately something the MMC Replay BIOS could cope with.
I've also read that you can put the RR in FLASH mode and it will work with the 128, havent tested this since my RR and RR-Net are on the fritz. Does anyone have a 128D(cr or not), RAMLink, 80 columns, SCPU, RR and RR-Net that they could try this on?
It has to be BIOS!
Guess I will have to sell some JiffyDOS on eBay so I can get an email from Maurice asking me to stop. I can email him back and ask what Error Code 6 is, hhahaha Sad but I bet it would work. :(
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I've also read on the ancient Cmdrkey forum that a cartridge called HANDYFOX causes the same initialization error.
Possibly these two cartridges can be compared to see what is similar which might point to a cause? Would the BIN of the cartridge suffice? doubt its a trace.
It HAS to be a BIOS thing. ;)
Help!
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Q: What product is this FAQ about?
A: MMC Replay NTSC
:banana:
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've also read that you can put the RR in FLASH mode and it will work with the 128, havent tested this since my RR and RR-Net are on the fritz. Does anyone have a 128D(cr or not), RAMLink, 80 columns, SCPU, RR and RR-Net that they could try this on?
Possibly in the near future. My 128T is based on a a 128D motherboard, but it is in storage atm since the move.
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weirdami wrote:
Q: What product is this FAQ about?
A: MMC Replay NTSC
If that is reference to Eddiie's questions, no worries he was invited by me into this thread. A good part of his questions are directly related and the rest could provide helpful answers.
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redrumloa wrote:
foleyjo wrote:
OK i found it
D64 writer plug-in (http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=21729)
It copy's a d64 back to disk in around 8 seconds. Apparently the kernel version is slower but more compatible
But does it work on NTSC machines :getmad:
Why dont you just try it and find out. :madashell:
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foleyjo wrote:
It copy's a d64 back to disk in around 8 seconds. Apparently the kernel version is slower but more compatible
But does it work on NTSC machines :getmad: [/quote]
Why dont you just try it and find out. :madashell: [/quote]
What's with the attitude? The fast D64 writer is known NOT TO WORK with NTSC machines, yet you come into a thread about building FAQ for a NTSC machines and procalaim it working. A little clarification is not an unreasonable request.
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If that is reference to Eddiie's questions, no worries he was invited by me into this thread. A good part of his questions are directly related and the rest could provide helpful answers.
No, I just saw you say that someone else got credit for something and I wanted in on the action. :idea:
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Here are few contributions by me...
Hardware for clockport: The old rrnet revision doesn't physically fit the board, only the new one does. Also unlike retro replay and rrnet, mmc replay with new rrnet fits inside standard module case.
Q: Does it work with PAL C128D (retro replay doesn't work properly)
A: I'll test it at home when I have time :-)
Q: What are the main differences to Retro Replay (and MMC64 / Action Replay VI)?
A: Only new rrnet fits, MMC port, 8 flash banks (instead of 2), memory expansion
Q: How are the filenames sorted?
A: In the order they are copied (no alphabetical sort)
Q: Does it come with case / can I use any standard size module case?
A: There are new cases available, but you need to cut out the holes for MMC card, reset & freeze buttons, led lights and Ethernet connection (if you use rrnet aswell)
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OK, tested some t64 images using the 0.04 plug-in:
Attack of the Mutant Camels: Works
Arcadia64: Works
Enigma Force: Crashes with corrupt graphics screen
and then my A1081 monitor decided to die on me! Need to hook up another display... :madashell:
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redrumloa wrote:
foleyjo wrote:
It copy's a d64 back to disk in around 8 seconds. Apparently the kernel version is slower but more compatible
But does it work on NTSC machines :getmad:
Why dont you just try it and find out. :madashell: [/quote]
What's with the attitude? The fast D64 writer is known NOT TO WORK with NTSC machines, yet you come into a thread about building FAQ for a NTSC machines and procalaim it working. A little clarification is not an unreasonable request.[/quote]
I did not proclaim that it worked on NTSC machine as the site I linked to where I got the thing does not say if it works or doesnt work with NTSC machines.
I tried to help and then you seemed to give me attitude by ending your post with the getmad smiley
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you seemed to give me attitude by ending your post with the getmad smiley
I always mix that one up with being an "i'm confused" smiley.
:-?
vs.
:getmad:
see? You can click on it too fast and not see it animate. Perhaps that's what he done did. :idea:
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Yeah we probably just had a little misunderstanding.
Sorry for my part
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foleyjo wrote:
I did not proclaim that it worked on NTSC machine as the site I linked to where I got the thing does not say if it works or doesnt work with NTSC machines.
I tried to help and then you seemed to give me attitude by ending your post with the getmad smiley
Ok, I see the confusion. I didn't mean to use the get mad smiley, but the :-?
Sorry for any confusion.
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Greetings, I'm a new user to this forum and I joined for the express purpose of helping out with the MMC Replay FAQ. What comes below is from a thread I started yesterday over at Lemon64, where I am doing a systematic game testing of the top 50 downloaded C64 games from C64.com to achieve a better understanding of how the MMC R works and to chase down and identify bugs and software issues for myself and others.
http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27678
My hardware:
1C64, 1C64C, 1 C128 [all NTSC]
tested and reliable 1571 II floppy drive
tested and reliable stack of mint 5.25 floppies
Commodore 1702 Monitor w/ rear composite video cable
Wico Joystick
MMC Replay V0.54 Bios
Macintosh running the Power64 emulator and the DiskImagry64 software for OSX
Testing using three Memory Cards:
64MB SanDisk SD FAT16
4GB SanDisk MicroSD with SD adaptor FAT32
2GB MMC Mobile Dual Voltage with SD adaptor FAT16
Tests:
---------------------------------------
Run Game from Memory Card | No Plugins
Run Game from Memory Card | Use Plugins
Copy Game to Floppy | No Plugins
Copy Game to Floppy | Use Plugins <- First round of testing shows this will not work as all D64 write plugins seem to crash, any help or advice out there?
Run Game from Copied Floppy | No MMC Replay
---------------------------------------
Downloaded Top 50 Downloaded Games from:
http://www.c64.com/games/no-frame.php?searchfor_special=2&main=1
Downloaded Game Relevant Plugins from Protovision:
http://www.protovision-online.de/hardw/hardwstart.htm
Plugins used for testing downloaded from Protovision. I am testing D64 write, txt read, dfi, T64 v4 and the TNT Browser
I can confirm that the TNT Browser will only work with an actual MMC Mobile memory card, not any variety of SD card... except one so far:
The MMC Browser, nicknamed the TNT Browser, does work on at least ONE SD card.
a picture of the SD can be found here:
http://pics.neobit.net/images/product_images/info_images/DSP00190.jpg
This was verified by a friend who runs vesalia.de
I would very much like to compile a database of working cards that will handle the MMC Browser on the MMC Replay, so far we have two, get yourself a true MMC Mobile memory card formatted to FAT16 or find the "takeMS 60x 1GB SD" card - pictured above for reference only.
update: I need to correct the above information. The picture included is NOT the actual card that worked, it was just reported to me that a 60x card by the same manufacturer is what worked for them. The photo is just for reference
Download MMC/TNT Browser from: http://www.retrohackers.com/forum/download/file.php?id=146&sid=a58c1fc2492a853a33cdc6d73e8765c8
Currently the MMC/TNT Browser is the only way to reliably run T64 files, however, some T64 files can be launched from a FAT16 SD card using V4 of the plugin but reliability is very low.
Download V4 T64 plugin from this MMC Replay FAQ thread: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=36280
I have also tested the native cartridge launcher on the MMC Replay with pretty good results.
I tested CRT files downloaded from: http://www.mayhem64.co.uk/main.htm
Anything that was not the right size returned an error of "No 8k or 16k Rom". Cartridge Games like Double Dragon, Shadow of the Beast, Ninja Remix, and a bunch of others will not run. The CRT plugin for the MMC64& RetroReplay is far less reliable than the MMC Replay internal CRT load function so don't bother with it.
I also have a list of questions I'd like to see added to the FAQ, they are groups of related questions, so feel free to edit and omit my writing if you do wind up incorporating the questions in the FAQ:
Q: what is the purpose of mounting 2 disk images with the MMC R? Can you run a multi disk game this way? If so, How? If not, wtf is mounting two disk images good for? As far as I can tell, when you mount and run an image, there is no way to command the C64 to look back to the MMC for the second disk image. Is there some trick I'm missing?
Q: what D64 write plugins work with MMC Replay? download link? instructions? This one is baffling me to no end. I guess I just want confirmation that they don't work, because if they do, then I'm seriously retarded :crazy: [I blame the 80s]
Q: where can the complete "remember" "jack alien" collection be downloaded? and what about these releases makes them so compatible with the MMC Replay? My testing shows these releases in particular tend to run flawlessly from the MMC Replay. If someone with way more tech savvy than I can determine WHY, then we may shed some light on further improvements to the MMC Replay.
Q: In plain 'n00b' english, how do the "freezer" and "extended freezer" functions work? What are they useful for doing in a practical example?
Q: Is there any way to copy single files to floppy, like PRG? Also, can a start track/sector be designated somehow? many disk images are about 35 Tracks but all my floppies are 65 tracks, so they have room for more stuff. Can I create my own program menus and write them to disk then if the answer to the first question is yes? if so, how?
update:
Q: Since most single PRG programs run without hassle, is there a way to extract PRGs from D64 and T64 ? If not, consider this a feature request :)
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That's about it for now, if you're interested in my individual game testing, click the Lemon64 link above, or, if you would like me to cross post them here as well, let me know
-MW
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@ Wolfeman (and others)
Awesome input! I will update the faq in a day or so, quite busy atm :-( Keep the input coming!!
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thanks redrumloa :-D happy to help out!
in the meantime, maybe someone here can help me chase a game bug. the game in question is the ever popular Rick Dangerous [1 or 2]
I'm having a heck of a time getting the game in any form to run using the MMC Replay.
I have tried a huge variety of D64 images. I've tried mounting them, copying them to disk with various plugins, and utilities but it simply will not work.
When I mount it as a virtual disk image, the game always starts fine, but after the 3rd intro screen just before the game is about to begin it freezes. The entire screen is black except for the complete Rick Dangerous character sprite on the lower left of the screen.
If I try to copy it to disk, it gets to Track 002 Sector 11 and freezes there. To reset the MMC I need to turn off the C64 for a few seconds as the reset button will not work. I've tried various format settings and have tested disks and my drive to be sure they are working correctly and they have no problems except with this game.
Has anyone who owns an MMC Replay gotten this game to work, and if so can you post details, step by step, on how you made it work?
thanks
-MW
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I learned some important things about how the MMC replay works over the past 24 hrs.
It is important that you use a fresh SD if you find you have errors when trying to write from a disk image to floppy, particularly if you find that the errors happen in the same track and sector regardless of what floppy disk you use.
If you get an error, back up the contents of your SD/MMC, erase it and then re-copy FRESH files on to it and then make your disk image backups to floppy.
Due to this conclusion I am no longer going to worry about trying to test each and every memory card I have unless I get persistent errors on some future game test so I will be removing all listings here of alternate memory card testing . So far, the only differences in memory cards are with plugins not working on FAT32 and the TNT Browser only working on MMC Mobile. I will of course continue testing and add to this list as warranted.
I had a HUGE problem with Maniac Mansion This game is incompatible with the MMC replay as far as I can tell, see my notes below. [please see my thread on Lemon64 for a full report on the top 50 downloaded C64 games running from the MMC Replay http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=332698
Maniac Mansion D64
RunFromCard: 64MB No - See notes
Floppy Copy: 64MB Yes, floppies copied once I erased the SD and then wrote fresh files to SD
Floppy Launch: No| Notes: downloaded 4 more versions from http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=13840
I've never had so much trouble with any game and I've never spent so much time trying to fix a game but since this game was one of my wife's favorites as a child, [she played the more robust CD version] I had to chase the bugs down.
I learned that an SD or MMC card that has had files written to it at different times caused problems when copying to floppy. I got numerous crashes from all memory cards at the SAME track and sector locations for each card per file until I tried a FRESH SD card and then it worked with no crashing on floppy copy.
Ultimately I could not get the game to recognize side 2 [the game asks for "side 1", but it means the next disk]. It simply did not work. I tried to get this game to work and spent way too many hours on it.
Q: why is it when I launch disk1 of MM in the emulator, it gets to the choose character screen, but when I load disk1 in actual hardware after copying the d64 image to floppy, it asks me to "insert side 1 and press joystick button to continue"
I thought I already DID insert side one so why would it ask for side one? wtf?
Q: why is disk 2 of MM garbled when I mount it and check the contents with the MMC R? and why is it not recognized when the prompt for side 1 comes up? is it because it isn't side 1 or it isn't copied right? if it's not what the program wants to be inserted , what do I do?
update The second question has been answered on the Lemon64 forum, I'll update this as I follow up on it.
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Just a quick update, this is great news for MMCR users and I am happy to report that I was dead wrong about this...
The MMC Browser, nicknamed the TNT Browser, does work on at least ONE SD card.
a picture of the SD can be found here:
http://pics.neobit.net/images/product_images/info_images/DSP00190.jpg
This was verified by a friend who runs vesalia.de
I would very much like to compile a database of working cards that will handle the MMC Browser on the MMC Replay, so far we have two, get yourself a true MMC Mobile memory card formatted to FAT16 or find the "takeMS 60x 1GB SD" card - pictured above for reference only.
update: I need to correct the above information. The picture included is NOT the actual card that worked, it was just reported to me that a 60x card by the same manufacturer is what worked for them. The photo is just for reference
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Sehr geehrter Besucher,
leider ist ein Fehler aufgetreten: Die gewünschte Seite wurde nicht gefunden.
Haben Sie sich vielleicht vertippt oder eine alte URL aufgerufen? Wenn nicht, informieren Sie bitte den Webmaster dieser Homepage per Email. Um zu der vorherigen Seite zurückzukehren, verwenden Sie bitte einfach die "Zurück" - Taste Ihres Browsers.
Your pic link is busted :-/
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sorry, fixed.
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@ Wolfeman
I have updated the FAQ, but have not included the TNT Browser info you provided yet. Could you please explain briefly what it is exactly? Is it an alternative browser?
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You really should download it and try it for yourself. I gave all the links and info with my post.
speaking of which, where are all the MMCR users that were here before?
has interested evaporated? I feel kinda silly posting to two forums where one has no interest or feedback [that would be this one] :(
anyway, the MMC/TNT browser is an alternate browser and file launcher. It shows full file names and can do much of what the built in MMCR browser does with the added ability to open T64 files with very high reliability. In short, it just LOOKS better and is much faster when you're browsing long lists of files.
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redrumloa wrote:
Sehr geehrter Besucher,
leider ist ein Fehler aufgetreten: Die gewünschte Seite wurde nicht gefunden.
Haben Sie sich vielleicht vertippt oder eine alte URL aufgerufen? Wenn nicht, informieren Sie bitte den Webmaster dieser Homepage per Email. Um zu der vorherigen Seite zurückzukehren, verwenden Sie bitte einfach die "Zurück" - Taste Ihres Browsers.
Your pic link is busted :-/
Ooooh German!!! And I could understand it!!! :lol: :-D
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sadly, the only German I know is from watching reruns of Hogan's Heroes :(
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Wolfeman wrote:
sadly, the only German I know is from watching reruns of Hogan's Heroes :(
Schade!
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Wolfeman wrote:
You really should download it and try it for yourself. I gave all the links and info with my post.
Here is the condition of my computer room atm.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/9bepo6.jpg)
My C= computers are temporarily in storage.
speaking of which, where are all the MMCR users that were here before?
has interested evaporated? I feel kinda silly posting to two forums where one has no interest or feedback [that would be this one] :(
Everyone has lives and this is just a hobby. Unfortunately all forums are rather slow when it comes to C= 8bit. Furthermore while I am putting the faq together here(Amiga.org is my home), and while Amiga.org is tolerant of C=8bit discussion, this *is* an Amiga forum. It may be a step slower than Lemon64 on C=8bit discussion.
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I would disagree with the "all C= 8bit forums are rather slow..." part, quite a bit actually, I can give you around half a dozen examples, but I understand what you're saying.
Just because I have had time recently does not mean I don't have a life as well and I realize you didn't mean to imply that just as I meant no reverse implication. It's just that, as you alluded, time is precious, and I'm not sure this forum is where I should spend mine based on the lack luster interest in the MMCR. This is not the case over at Lemon64 where the same topic has been getting regular posts and input during the same amount of time since my first post here.
I'm not trying to be accusatory, or raising any complaints, I'm simply voicing a disappointment.
Please don't take it personally or as a slant on this forum in general. I'm an Amiga user as well, albeit for games only and I appreciate the resource and knowledgebase here.