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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 12:52:03 AM

Title: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 12:52:03 AM
hi all, sorry to bug folks with what is probably a simple question, but how do I get WB 3.1 on to my hard drive without an install disk. the WB manual says to boot from the install disk, but I don't have one as the Amiga I have was not shipped originally with a hard drive. Any ideas will help as I have no clue. I just started playing with this thing after not having an Amiga for more than 10 years. thanks
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: Bazzaq on May 08, 2008, 01:01:54 AM
install disks over at amigakit > linkAmigakit (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=179&osCsid=3982722212398bf0654f73c9de881205)

install disk has format/partition tool as well as workbench install scripts..

If you hd is already partitioned you could always copy the files manually as long as the hd is bootable.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 01:05:15 AM
the hard drive was bootable, until about a hour ago. now its not. and I can no longer see the contents. Thanks for the link, but is there anyway I can get this done today? I don't want to have to wait three weeks while my disk sits at customs
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: harrison on May 08, 2008, 12:34:24 PM
If you have the standard Workbench boot floppy then you can use that.  You don't need the install disk.

Just boot the system from the Workbench floppy disk and if the HD is working you should see its icon appear once WB has loaded and you can then access it and try to fix whatever the boot problem is.

Otherwise you will need some partitioning software to try and set the HD up again.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: tokyoracer on May 08, 2008, 12:43:52 PM
There used to be a good tutorial but that seems to be offline now.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 03:18:18 PM
harrison, It did show up for a while but now its gone altogether. What partitioning program do you recommend?
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: doctorq on May 08, 2008, 03:26:34 PM
I would just use HDInstTools from Aminet. You can load up your Workbench disk, mount PC0: from your Storage disk, and then access the program from a 720 kb disk formatted in your PC.

Download HDInstTools as well as LHA.run from www.aminet.net and put it on the PC formatted disk, and you should be able to bring the hdd up and running.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 03:34:31 PM
doctorq, I tried that but when I boot from the WB disk then put the storage disk in, click the PC0 icon it just asks for the WB disk back. I give it the put the formated disk in but it dose not recognize the PC0 disk. If I try again it says that PC0 is already mounted. I'm going to pull out my other 1200 and see if the same thing happens on that one.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: doctorq on May 08, 2008, 04:54:29 PM
If you are using a 1.44 MB disk as your PC0 disk it won't work.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 06:08:09 PM
no, im not using a 1.44 disk, but it still not working
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: doctorq on May 08, 2008, 06:13:34 PM
Try formatting the disk on the Amiga and then put it in the PC.


The syntax is

format drive pc0: name whatever noicons

Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 06:16:49 PM
I don't think its a problem with the formating of the disk. The Amiga just does not want to mount the disk as PC0
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 06:25:04 PM
tried that. it just asks for the WB disk and then says

object is not of the required type.

I only have one floppy drive for the Amiga will that matter?
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: doctorq on May 08, 2008, 08:07:18 PM
You have to change disks when it ask you to, but otherwise it should work straight away.

Try copying PC0 to devs:dosdrivers on your WB disk, and reboot.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 08:39:39 PM
I must be missing something some place. Its not working

here is what I am doing step by step

I copied the PC0 icon to the DOSDrivers draw on the WB3.1 floppy
then booted with the WB 3.1
floppy open a shell window
type in format drive pc0: name whatever noicons
hit return

it replies with object is not of the required type.

it did not ask me to change disks this time
if i put the floppy to be formated in to the drive an icon DF0:???? pops up on the desktop. If i select it and choose format from the icons menu it asks for the wb disk. I insert it, the format window pops up but does not give me the option of choosing the pc0 device to format. I can only format DF0 to 880K.  Is there anything else I can try?

Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 08, 2008, 08:57:54 PM
You are lucky it didn't work, you almost formatted you Workbench disk!  

1- Put the PC0 icon back in Storage/Dosdrivers.
2- Boot with WB disk.
3- Go into Storage/Dosdrivers and double-click the PC0 icon.
4- If things are working correctly, all disks from now on will have 2 icons, one for Amiga filesystem and one for PC filesystem (named ????? or NonDos or something weird-looking, it should also have the Cross-Doss icon)
5- REMOVE YOUR WB DISK NOW (AND WRITE-PROTECT IT)
6- Put your blank floppy in, wait for both icons to appear, single click the weird looking one and choose Format Disk in the right button top menu.
7- You might be asked to replace WB temporarily for it to load the Format command, then it should ask for the blank disk and formatting will begin.

EDIT- 8- To read PC disk after a reboot, you will need to double click the Storage/Dosdrivers/PC0 icon again.  (It's normally better to keep it in Storage than have it loading up every time you switch on)

EDIT - Just remembered, some Amigas need the High Density hole of a disk cellotaping up before they work correctly
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 09:13:03 PM
I prediced that it may want to format the wb disk so I already had it write protected.

ok, I removed the pc0 icon from the wb disk. rebooted with the wb disk and then put the storage disk in and clicked the pc0 icon as you say. It then asks for the WB disk then the storage disk then the WB disk again. no extra icons appear and I'm still unable to see the pc0 device or any weird icons. are my WB disks screwed or something?
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: taunusand on May 08, 2008, 09:15:51 PM
Try this:
Open a DOS window on your PC
Insert the DD disk in your A: drive
Type:
format a: /n:9 /t:80

This works for me, hope it works for you.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 09:22:47 PM
nope that just formats the disk as FAT. Not readable in the Amiga. Thanks though
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: taunusand on May 08, 2008, 09:32:07 PM
Yes, it is formatted as FAT. After mounting PC0: you shuld be able to read it.
Maybe I don't get it right, but I thought your problem was formatting the disk?
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 09:40:31 PM
no, my problem is that I need to be able to read the fat format on my amiga. but for some reason the pc0 thingy is not working and I don't know how to reinstall WB to my hd without it
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: taunusand on May 08, 2008, 09:49:19 PM
Oh sorry, I misunderstood the situation.
Do you have other WB disks? Back in the days, everybody had them...
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 09:51:14 PM
I have a set of wb 3.1 disks

wb 3.1
Storage
Extras
Locale
and fonts

thats all I have
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 08, 2008, 09:53:58 PM
It's possible your WB disk is damaged.  Quick experiment, boot with the WB disk.  Double-click the Storage/Dosdrivers PC0 icon.  After a few seconds of clicking even the WB disk itself should have an extra crossdos icon.  If it does not, there is something wrong with your disk, put in an order for a new set.

EDIT - sorry, I'm forgetting that a disk-based setup has Storage on a separate drawer, this must be making things take twice as long.  Maybe put PC0 in the WB Devs/Dosdrivers disk after all.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 08, 2008, 09:59:15 PM
I just got this set from amigakit a few weeks ago and only started using them a couple of days ago. and all have been write protected. Apart from the wee copy I did earlier.

I do have a m-Tec expansion card installed, would that perhaps be messing things up?


Also If I try and click the pc0 icon again after I have already ran it it responds with the message

Device 'PC0:' is already mounted
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 08, 2008, 10:14:00 PM
Probably not.

Also, Taunusand's PC formatting advice above produces a disk which can be read on a real Amiga using PC0, I just tried it.

Has the blank disk been Amiga formatted?  If not, do a full (not quick) format on it before trying to mount it as PC0.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: taunusand on May 08, 2008, 10:39:04 PM
How does the icon(s) look when inserting the PC formatted disk in the Amiga after double-clicking the PC0 icon?

I assume that you have formatted the disk on your PC and transferred the files to the disk, wich you downloaded from aminet.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 09, 2008, 02:10:37 AM
that was the plan, but the power went out for the last 3 hours, so now I'm going to format the disk again in the pc and put the files on it, then I will try again to mount in with the Amiga. wish me luck  :-P
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 09, 2008, 02:26:18 AM
no joy it would seem, I put the pc formated disk in the amiga. only one icon pops up and that looks the same as the wb disk icon only it says DF0:???? thats it.

I took a look at the contents of the pc0: file that I copied to the WB disk and I noticed that the unit field is commented out. Is this normal? it says at the top of the file that the unit field is used to set which device to mount.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: taunusand on May 09, 2008, 10:40:46 PM
Quote

fidelTFG wrote:
no joy it would seem, I put the pc formated disk in the amiga. only one icon pops up and that looks the same as the wb disk icon only it says DF0:???? thats it.

After you mounted PC0: ?
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 09, 2008, 11:15:36 PM
thats correct taunusand.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 09, 2008, 11:19:21 PM
When you select the PC0 file and choose Icons/Information, you should see in the Tool Types section-

ACTIVATE=1
UNIT=0

If they do not exist, create them and try again.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 09, 2008, 11:43:41 PM
they are already there,
And the default tool is = c:Mount
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 09, 2008, 11:49:32 PM
OK, you say the unit number field is commented out if you view it as a text file?  If you mean with a ; just delete it, save and ...try again...
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 10, 2008, 12:35:23 AM
it is commented out with /* and *\, do I use MEmacs to edit it  or is there another way?

p.s. sorry for all this, like I said at the start I'm a noob and just learning how to use this thing after not having one since 1993.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 10, 2008, 12:57:55 AM
I've never used MEmacs, just Ed should do it.

Workbench menu, Execute Command.
Type -

ed devs:dosdrivers/pc0
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 10, 2008, 01:26:53 AM
did that, but it does not seem to have worked.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: rkauer on May 10, 2008, 04:18:02 AM
 Please, stop! Do EXACTLY this way:

 1-Put your WB disk in the drive and boot the Amiga;

 2-When the Amiga boots, swap the disk for the "Storage" one;

 3-Mount PC0 clicking on the icon twice. You'll notice when the driver is mounted because: WB (the OS) will ask for the WB disk, then for the Storage again;

 4-Take the disks out.

 5- Put an unformatted disk on the unit, with the "HD" hole covered (or a true DD disk). Then will appear two disks icons on the screen;

 6- Left-click on PC0:????? icon once;

 7- Press mouse right button. From the pull-down menu, select ICON >> FORMAT DISK;

 8- If the system asks for the WB disk, take the unformatted out and put the WB disk;

 9- Take the WB disk out when the disk LED goes off;

 10- Put the unformatted disk on drive again and wait until the format operation is done;

 11- Use the FAT-formatted disk in your PC to move archives to and from it.

-------------------------------

 Troubleshooting:
 
 - If the PC0 driver don't mount (and only if)), put the WB disk on the drive, press the right-Amiga key (on the keyboard) and press "E" at the same time. In the window that will open, type "ED dfgndf(whatever)".

 In the EDconsole, right click in any area and in the pull-down menu select File >> open. Put the Storage disk on drive and look for the PC0 file (NOT THE PC0.INFO !!!!!. Left-click twice on the file name.

 Before any editing, just look if the correct sets are there: unit 0 (zero), active 1 (means: TRUE). DON'T MESS WITH OTHER SETTINGS!
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 10, 2008, 06:25:05 AM
hi rkauer, thanks for your help, I tried to do what you said, but when I get as far as the end of step 3, it askes for the WB disk again. I insert it then remove it when its done reading. I then place the disk I want to format in to the drive and wait for the two I cons to appear, but only one shows up, and its DF0:????
If I try to format it, I con only for mat DF0: PC0 does not show up anyplace. This I did with an unedited copy of WB disk.

I checked the PC0 file as you said, the Unit field is commented with a value of 0, but I don't see an active field.

 I'm starting to think there is something else wrong with my Amiga. I'm not sure if the floppy drive thats in it is a true DD drive or a 1.44 'fixed' to work in an Amiga. I have another one sitting here, do you think if a swap it out it may help?

Thanks
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 10, 2008, 09:57:43 PM
Those instructions have been tried pretty much exactly already.

Quote

fidelTFG wrote: but I don't see an active field.


I think rkauer means the ACTIVATE field that you already confirmed to me was there and reading 1.

Please confirm the type of disk you are using, and if it is HD (High Density) that you have covered the HD hole using cellotape or something similar.  If in doubt, cover them both (the disk will still be writeable).

Have you been working from a backup of the WB disks?  If so, are the originals still in their virginal state?  If yes, backup a new set and try again.

Swapping the drives is worth a try, but even a "fixed" 1.44 should respond to this basic task.  Since you mention that the UNIT field in PC0 is commented out and won't respond to un-commenting, I think maybe one of these files is damaged -

SYS:Devs/DosDrivers/PC0
SYS:Devs/mfm.device
SYS:L/CrossDOSFilesystem

or maybe even some other arbitrary file.

I am determined to get to the bottom of this now!!
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 11, 2008, 12:02:31 AM
I'm using a DD disk with only the write protect hole. and its an original WB disk, I haven't got around to making a back up yet, I guess I should have.

I can not find crossDosFilesystem in the L draw on the Wb disk is it meant to be there of someplace else?
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 11, 2008, 12:23:53 AM
AHAAA!  I believe we have a winner.  Yes, that file should be there.

Would it be legal to supply this poor chap with said file?
How about Amigakit as the distributer emailing him a copy?
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 11, 2008, 12:30:55 AM
I found it, its on the Extras disk

I'm going to copy it to the Disk and see if that works.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 11, 2008, 12:31:12 AM
A closer look at my own copy of 3.1 shows that this is not in the distro.  Was this some kind of error or omission, or is it buried elsewhere?  The 3.1 version of PC0 definitely points to L:CrossDOSFilesystem.

And now I see what you mean by the commenting out, it specifically says the Unit field is controlled by tooltypes in the PC0 icon, so ignore that bit of stuff.

EDIT - OK, you found it.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: fidelTFG on May 11, 2008, 12:45:54 AM
SUCCESS :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

Well that was an endeavor and a half. Now on the next step of my original problem.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions on that one. And I'll make a note of that.
thanks you all again.
Title: Re: hd install.....errr yer im a noob
Post by: lurkist on May 11, 2008, 12:50:06 AM
Woohoo!  But yeah, all that just to read a disk...  Good luck with the rest, you know where to come if it gets tricky.