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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: lorddef on August 10, 2003, 10:56:16 PM
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Just wondering how far anyone has pushed a 68040 rated at 25Mhz, I know 33Mhz is possible with extra cooling but could one reach 40Mhz or further with a good bit of cooling?
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Keep in mind 040s run hot normally. If you OC them you will really be pumping out heat.
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Over the hill and far away. :-D
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Not a chance of hitting 40Mhz - thats like 70% overclock, and 040 if very hot even at normal speed. 30 is good, 33 if you're lucky.
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I've had mine to 33 and I herd of 35 but your hard presed to get a 70Mhz cristal round here. Thats with an A3640, but just having ram on the accel gives a better performance boost than over clocking
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Depends how tired your arms get...
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If you have a nearby electronics store that are willing to solder a new 040 for you on the board for a cheap price, get an 040 at 40mhz. These things go for nothing at eBay. You'll need a heatsink and fan though, the 040's at 40mhz run VERY hot, even the 40mhz ones.
Or if you're more lucky you'll have one socketed in your board, wich is kinda rare I think.
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/me hugs his GForce '040 @33MHz (well that's what the seller told me it was, I think the manual says so too...)
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I would think the last thing you would want to try is to OC an 040 CPU. They run so damn hot in the first place. You would need some serious airflow to keep it cool, and burning it and/or the accelerator would suck. I would not recomend it at all. You would be better off just getting an 060 accelerator. I'll bet in the next few months if OS4 comes out people will be selling off there classic Amiga to get an Amiga One like crazy if all is working as announced.
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My friend and I both had A4000's.... same revision even. We took his 3640 card, added a socket, and tossed an 80mhz xtal in it. He had 40mhz! Put that same 3640 card in my A4000, and it wouldn't boot until we got it down to 33mhz. So, we put it back in his machine, and it wouldn't work at 33mhz.
Absolutely bizarre. It worked though, still works too. The 040 25mhz made it to 40mhz, and has been running for well over 3 years. There was only one problem.... the FPU didn't make it. If you tried to render an image you would get corrupt renders. For everything else not requiring FPU it ran flawlessly.
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040 40mhz can run 50mhz
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Years ago I had an A3640 in my A4000, which I later upgraded to a Warp Engine. I purchased the Warp without an 040 and transferred my existing 25MHz 040 into it. I was able to overclock it to 40MHz with perfect reliability. I later sold the Warp to a friend, and it is still running reliably to this day.....at 40 MHz.
I found that 40MHz was the absolute maximum - any more and it would crash. I did try genuine 40Mhz 040s in the Warp and got just under 45MHz.
I used a 486 CPU cooler with fan to keep the 040 cool.
It is also possible to get an A3640 past 33MHz, with an additional cut and jumper mod.
Check out my overclocking site: www.starnet.com.au/davem/amiga.html
David.
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Did they use 40 MHz chips in Sonnett Doubler 50 MHz Peltier cooled accelerator cards?
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Cheers peeps. I'm going to make one hell of a cooler out of some exhaust fans ant attempt 40Mhz, if it frys I'll source a new 040, but I'm sure it'll live.
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This is beyond ridiculous, but...
How about a heatpipe-heatsink that can passive-cool a P4? (http://www.dansdata.com/ncu1000.htm) :-o
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My Apollo '040 25 has been successively overclocked for the past three years, first to 28Mhz, the 33Mhz and finally 40Mhz.
Obviously I've added a heatsink under the CPU fan, and having the whole ensemble mounted in a tower helps a lot. Even in the UK's current record breaking heat, I'm still running reliably.
Lando, you are technically correct as older '040 CPUs were not very tolerant of overclocking. However, more recent versions of the 25Mhz chip are reputed to be manufactured to the same tolerances as the 40Mhz version, the only difference allegedly being the part number. If the CPU is in a ceramic case (the processor part code will read MC68040RC) then it will be better able to shed heat. If in doubt, add a fan. The add a bigger one :-D
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Off topic but...... Sonnet, the company that makes accelerators for Macs also makes the Quad Doubler
Sonnet Technologies (http://www.sonnettech.com/product/quaddoubler.html)
which uses an 040/50Mhz... This info has popped up in Amiga news groups over the years but I'm really curious to see if anyone has actually tried one of these.
Anyone ?
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I recently bought a Quaddoubler 100/50MHZ.
I Put it into the 040/6340 board on my A3000
Mediator setup. It tried to boot up, but couldn't. Any suggestions?
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Hi ppl
It´s doesn´t do nothing?
Maybe it runs at 25 Mhz by default and later, under macos, a software, sowhat way pushes it to the proper speed?
Best Regards
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Lando wrote:
Not a chance of hitting 40Mhz - thats like 70% overclock, and 040 if very hot even at normal speed. 30 is good, 33 if you're lucky.
I've had mine at 40MHz for years. It's 60% for those of us who know their math.
I even use passive cooling.
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zipper wrote:
Did they use 40 MHz chips in Sonnett Doubler 50 MHz Peltier cooled accelerator cards?
No, they used 25MHz ones.
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jonbyk wrote:
I recently bought a Quaddoubler 100/50MHZ.
I Put it into the 040/6340 board on my A3000
Mediator setup. It tried to boot up, but couldn't. Any suggestions?
There's no reason why it shouldn't work. Found this with Google:
http://www.bison21.bizland.com/QuadDoubler.html (http://www.bison21.bizland.com/QuadDoubler.html)
What excactly happens when you power on?
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When I power on, my hard drive makes sounds like it is booting up. Then it keeps on doing the same thing till I turn it off.
It seems to be trying its best! It fans itself nicely and stays cool.
Are there any switches that need to be changed?
Thanks
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@jonbyk
I have a QuadDoubler(BST-50FB) in my A3640 (V3.1) in my 3000D (normal Zorro slots, no Mediator) and it works fine. Have you tried disconnecting the Mediator to see if it works?
BTW it's pretty fast. According to SysInfo it's about the same speed as my Apollo 1260.
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Offhand I'd say until the AC Cable becomes taunt, or until it reaches the edge of your desk surface (whichever comes first). :-)
(http://store1.yimg.com/I/pchotdeals_1751_4052694)
POWER CORD FOR COMPUTER MONITOR/TOWER
computer placement exam (http://cispom.boisestate.edu/ccxam.html)
The computer placement exam differs from challenge exams -- students do not receive grades or academic credit for completing the computer placement exam. The results of the exam indicate how well you position your system.
Computer Comfort & Ergonomics (http://www.doubleii.com/computercomfort.htm)
Computer Positioning Checklist (http://atto.buffalo.edu/registered/ATBasics/Populations/LowVision/positioning.php)
Positioning - Student & Computer (http://atto.buffalo.edu/registered/ATBasics/AdaptingComputers/SimpleModifications/positioning.php)
Office Ergonomics Training (http://www.office-ergo.com/)
° Alternately, you can leave the System case alone and just push your monitor: PC manufacturers pushing the monitor farther away from the computer (http://www.gcis.ca/cdne-400-jan-09-2003.html)
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@vortexau:
Doh, good point :-)
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jonbyk wrote:
When I power on, my hard drive makes sounds like it is booting up. Then it keeps on doing the same thing till I turn it off.
It seems to be trying its best! It fans itself nicely and stays cool.
Are there any switches that need to be changed?
Thanks
Shouldn't need any jumper settings or anything. But a quick sanity check. Are you replacing a 25MHz 68040 with a 50MHz quaddoubler, or what? I don't think the quaddoubler has its own clock, it only has a pll that can double the one on the motherboard. So that one has to be 25MHz.
Other than that, I can't think of anything that should make this not work. It's an extremely simple piece of equipment (clock doubler and CPU with cooling)
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I believe not worth the time, effort and money especially on repairs. Try to find a used 060 instead. If you do have money, get a new 060 bd.
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Bah, a Motorola can take almost anything. If they overheat, just cool down and try again :-)
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Get some crystals and a decent fan... Try it yourself. As long as you have a decent fan, you shouldn't have to worry about cooking the chip. Ramp it up untill you experience instability, then take it down till things settle. Oh, and you might wanna socket the crystal if it's not already done.
Bottom line... Some chips can take more than others, so experimentation is really the only way to find out.
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If anyone is still reading this thread, the Quaddoubler that didn't work was returned to Sonnet. I got it back last week. Put it in, and Eureka! 68040/55! Quite fast. Very nice.
Jon Byk
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BTW it's pretty fast. According to SysInfo it's about the same speed as my Apollo 1260.
Could one of you guys with this board please
post the MIPS/MFLOPS rating from SysInfo or
better yet SysSpeed? I would appreciate it..:)
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Hi All-
On the strength of the above advice I just got a quaddoubler (arrived UPS last night). Popped open my totally stock (well, I do have Oxypatcher running, and Fblit too) A4000, stuck quaddoubler on the daughterboard (the "b" model hangs off the side where there is room for it, something I was worried about!) and put everything back together easier than puting in a new ROM. It booted right up just fine. AIBB tests show it to be mostly 2.02 times faster than a stock A4000/40. Exceptions: drawing the beachball is 3 or 5 times as fast (oxypatch effect?), memory test is still stock speed (half as fast as a A3000). Some of the tests were only 1.5-1.8 times faster, I presume ones that had a memory component.
Subjectively, the GUI was faster, the icons just popped into the windows. I tried playing a few games and they all seemed to work, although megaball developed an odd lock up that needed a re-boot to get out of. Breathless seemed to look smooth at screen sizes I had found unusable before (I didn't try above 320-200 as that seemed to get a little jumpy). Genesis (the old fractal scenery generator from years ago) painted scenes fast enough to be fun again, which made me smile since that was my main reason to spend the $$ on a speed-up.
My major disappointment is that when I tried to play avi files on my OS3.9 Action tool, they looked slower and rougher than a plain vanilla 68040/25 system. (Anyone have a suggestion here?)
I spent $117 (with shipping) to almost painlessly double the speed of my system. I read somewhere that you should never upgrade less that 4 times speed, however the next plug and play step up for me would be some kind of 060 card at a much steeper cost. $100 now and then seems right to spend on a beloved old hobby computer.
Yours-
CRL :-)
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@CRL
Perhaps the AVI playback is demanding too much and causing your overclocked CPU to overheat?
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I'll throw in my 2 cents here. All referring to using a 3640 board and not a 3rd party 040 accelerator card like a WarpEngine etc.
I've overclocked around 75 different Amiga 4000's in my time, they all react differently. It's not a case of the chip, or the 3640, but the motherboard (I know, it's wacky). You can take a perfectly stable 3640 with a 040/25 running at 33MHz and move it to another 4000 and that 2nd machine wont work,
First, be sure you're using 60ns SIMMS (not 70ns or 80ns) or it'll screw up the timing and just cycle the hard drive when it tries to boot if you run over 25MHz.
Second, most 3640 boards will support a 40MHz 040 chip, but the 4th (last) bank of memory on the motherboard will not be seen (this is the case in every board I've tried, I have heard of a case or two where a person's machine works just fine at 40Mhz with a 3640 although it never has for me).
Third, most 25MHz 040's will run at 28MHz, 30MHz, and quite often 33MHz, but even with a water cooler I've never managed to get one to run at 40 (But I have gotten 33MHz ones to run at 40 with no sweat) again, however, most motherboards will cease to see that last 4MB of RAM in bank 4. Just wacky. It's all trial and error, plus having had the benefit of having 20 new 4000's at my disposal to find one that ran well at 40 (minus the 4th bank issue) was nice. I always personally owned a 40MHz 4000 with a stock 3640 because of that.
The trick is to find oscillators of various speeds so you can step your machine up a few MHz at a time until you find that magic point where it runs stable (my 3000 ran great at 50MHz with a 33MHz 030 for example, my buddy Rob's would only work at 40). I also had a 3000T that ran an 040 25 at 33Mhz but not at 28MHz. Amigas are strange that way, but that's part of the fun! :-D
I do know of a supplier in France who has every oscillator under the sun www.radiospares.fr (but the site is entirely in french so you have to have a good idea of what part number you're looking for if you don't read french - babbelfish might help here as well). If somebody here knows of a good north american (or asian) supplier of oscillators I'd like to know myself. :-)
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I think the sonnet doublers used a 040/25 clocked to 50mhz. I've got one in my 4000 (although she hasnt be turned on but twice in the last two years). Its on the A3640 rev3.1. Has some kind of heatsink chill circuit thing on it.
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Hi Jagabot-
The Sonnet quaddoubler replaces the 68040 with a little board that has a 50mhz '040 plus cooler. That is, AFAIK it doesn't speed up anything on the daughterboard at all, just takes care of CPU business at double speed then looks like a 25mhz chip to the board. Gee, I could be all wrong, but I'm not having trouble with reading all 16megs of memory. Not real super memory chips either if I recall correctly. Somewhere above in this thread there is a pointer to extended descriptions of the Sonnet device. Seemed like a nice way to go faster to me.
CRL :-)
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Here's some more info. Sonnet used to advertise their quad doubler for the Amiga market in Amiga World Magazine back in 92-94ish time frame. A few years back I purchased one off of e-bay for my A4000. But due to the way the socket was mounted on the version I had I was unable to use it. When it was mounted to the 3640 the rest of the quad doubler hung over and covered most of the daughter board slot. So it was either the daughter board or the quad doubler... The doubler is in the garage collecting dust.
Just for fun I called Sonnet to ask them about the design change and by this time tech support didn’t even know what an Amiga was.
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Hey CRL, thanks, that's good stuff to know. I'm sure I'll be passing that along to quite a few people who don't frequent Amiga.org! Thanks.
(Like I said, what I posted was in regard to only the Commodore 3640 board and pushing the cpu on one. But this Sonnet will be much more handy.)
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From to the Red Planet (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main?xml=/connected/2003/06/03/ecnsmars102.xml)
Beagle will be set free to enter the atmosphere at 700 mph. Once it has slowed down, parachutes will open to brake it even more. Finally, large gas bags will inflate to cushion the probe as it bounces to the surface. Once still, its solar panels will open up and cameras will start to peer around the site. During the first few hours it will send its call sign - a song specially recorded and composed by the pop group Blur - back to Milton Keynes via Nasa's orbiting Odyssey craft. Beagle 2 weighs just 75lb - and carries 24lb of scientific equipment. It is tough enough to survive the shakes of take-off, and a bump on landing likened to pushing a computer off a desk on to concrete and expecting it to work.
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Computer punishment! (http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/9.53.html)
Should computers be legally responsible?
"Are There Senses in
which a Computer may Properly by Held Responsible for its Actions?" by J.P.A.
Race from Brunel Univeristy, UK[/i]
"There are three aspects of punishment:
Retribution:[/i] the need for society to get its revenge on the wrong- doer: a basically irrational (but quite understandable) emotional response. If this means pushing a computer system over a cliff after it has driven someone to suicide through sending them wrong electricity bills, we can understand it. [...]
Rehabilitation:[/i] In this sense, the aim of punishment is to improve the individual for his own sake and that of society. In the case of a computer, this may involve re-programming or the indication to the computer that its previous response had been wrong, so that this reprimand is stored as a new parameter value to adjust its future behaviour. The fact that we did not use a cat-o'-nine-tails or the brig does not mean what we did was not punishment, any more than it is not punishment - of a severe kind - if a court-martial reprimands an officer who runs a frigate aground.
Deterrence:[/i] The fact that [this computer system] is punished should be communicated to other computer systems working on similar things. [...]
:-D
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I'm running a MC68040XC25 on a BlizzardPPC at 33 MHz here.
It's very stable even at summer time temperatures.
I didn't try to overclock it even more, but I guess it could do much more than this.
But I must warn you, this is a military spec 040, don't try to reproduce this at home!
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could someone enlighten me as to what the different suffixes mean? e.g. 68040XC25 (I know the last two digits relate to speed) as opposed to 68040RC25?
Thanks
edit: nae worry - I just discovered I'd bookmarked a site detailing just tha earlier this year
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Get an 060 :D it roxXx!
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reallyYyYyY... ?
;-)
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I had a Warpengine 040 running at 28mhz, and as the crystal was socketed, i thought it would be a nice easy overclock. but could i get a 33mhz crystal? nope. managed to get a 40Mhz crystal chip, and remembering how hot my old cyberstormII 040 got, i pulled the little heatsink off and cleaned off the glue and heatsink paste. and the chip turned out to be a 25Mhz version (full FPU, MMU etc.)
bolted on a BIIIG arse heatsink and fan with a spot or two of heatsink grease, popped in the 40Mhz crystal, booted up fine. nothing flaky, or after continuous tests (involving AIBB and Quake) it all looked fine. one thing was puzzeled me. in stuff like show config, it didn't seem to think it had an FPU. this struck me as ok, as the 040 may have disabled the FPU due to the speed and possible core temperatures it was running at. i dunno. but even tho it reported no FPU, the FPU tests and Quake, and other FPU requiring software ran fine, so shrugged my shoulders and carried on. if you are over clocking an 040, bear in mind COOLING COOLING COOLING! and heatsink thermal paste can make all the difference!
(just not too much, just enuff to fill the imperfections in the surface of the chip and base of the heatsink. if you are going to glue the 'sink to the chip, but spots of glue on the outside of the chip/sink so you arn't interfearing with the heat dissipated to the heatsink) :-)
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I cannot remember exactly anymore.
PC - or something similar where prototypes
XC - normal series production
RC - has passed special very demanding test
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Sent defective quaddouber back to Sonnet. The new one booted right up at 55Mb.
Nice.
Jon Byk
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XC is normal but early production version.
RC is ceramic case.
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OT: I would really love to see a 68K built using a bodern 0.13nm process :-)
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I have a Apollo 1240/25 and I can do 33MHz just fine (with Heatsync and fan), but cannot do 40MHz. I could maybe with a really good cooling setup and if I was in a tower. I can boot into WB @ 40MHz but after 5 minutes sys crashes.
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Hi lorddef,
I do not recommend over-clocking a processor. If you need a faster 68040 then buy one. Try to get the MC68040, not the XC68040. The MC68040 runs cooler and a little faster then the XC version. :-)
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FlagshipAmigaLover wrote:
The MC68040 runs (..) little faster then the XC version. :-)
:-D :-D :-D
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Hi,
I'm in PPC's camp. overclock it. then you'll have a great excuse to replace it with an 060.
Ah, power, gotta love it.
Chris
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If you own a Cyberstorm or Blizzard board you should be able to
overclock the 68040 as much as it can stand. On some older accelerator
boards you may get trouble with the board itself if trying to
overclock.
I currently run my 68040/25 at 40MHz and it has been running fine for
several days now, and it doesn't generate much heat. I've added a fan
to the CPU before I put the lid on my A3000D.
I have been thinking to try 45 or 50MHz. Have to get some oscillators
to do that though. (I love the smell of burning sillicon)
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I have apollo 040 40mhz i tied to overlock it to 50mhz it didn't work it stops to green screen.
Didn't work without memory either.
I know its possible to overclock to 50 mhz, I know some guy who have did that years ago and still using it.
Some Apple accellators have 57 mhz 040