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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: jiffydos on April 02, 2008, 07:44:50 PM
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Hi All,
I am thinking about buying a Mediator 4000Di for my A4000 desktop. I was looking for some reviews and opinions, which I know we have a lot of here. :)
Is it worth the nearly $300 USD? Based on what I read, it is worth it to me to be able to install my Radeon 9200 Video and cheap Realtek ethernet card.
But, I am looking for some re-assurance.
What do you all think?
Dave
Lowell, MA
USA
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In my experience they are good quality and reliable boards and probably cheaper than the alternatives. I'd definately recommend it if you don't already have a video card in your A4000.
Radeon grahpics cards won't work in the 4000Di at the moment but Elbox are planning to produce an adapter with an auxillary 3.3v power supply, so get in contact with them about that one.
If you can find a cheap PCI Voodoo 3 then it is probably worth getting a Mediator while the shipping is free.
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Use one in an A1200 and couldn't be without it now.
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Mediator is a good stuff (I bought new around 6 months ago :) ) and now I can see my Workbench in 1440x900 on 19" LCD. Now I'm looking for good TV card for it.
But don't expect miracles. There is a HUGE difference between AGA and GFX but still this will not be "PC". But for me this was major update... I used ONLY ECS (A600) and AGA (CD32 and now A1200) so this IS a difference :). I have this kind of workbench only on UAE... now it's "real" ;)
You need to remember that Mediator takes 4 or 8 Mb of you FAST RAM so when you have 16 Fast total it will take you 8 Mb on start and than additional other ram for e.g. stupid background picture. (maybe I did something wrong??) so for me minimum to do something with the system is 32 Mb Fast Ram.
Actually I sold my Radeon 1950xt to have some cash for it and I'm happy :-D (yes, for "just" some PCI slots...)
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Makin the move to PCI is always good. I can tell you that the mediator is worth it as you can pickup the vodo, sound and newtwork card for it for $5 or less at computer shows. These acards are usually in junk or refuse surplus bins...
The equivalent Amiga sound, network and video cards will set you back almost $1000 if you go by recent Ebay prices.
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For gfx card you are better off with a Voodoo 3. If all you want is a GFX card and 10mb ethernet, get a Prometheus from Amigakit. Prometheus is the better product JMHO and has Catweasel (PCI) drivers.
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Here is Prometheus at Amigakit (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=200&osCsid=1f0aef852b1bac227d89d39f9301da3e). Amigakit is great and that Prometheus price is outstanding!!
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Maybe it's better "technically" ;), but Elbox IS DOING something for Mediator... (I really didn't expect "drivers" for 9200). Maybe they will surprise us again... who knows?
Otherwise a graphic card for Amiga is a graphic card (Voodoo, Radeon or Virge it's only 2D yea, I know warp3D ;)... without PPC is worthless...
Other wise a Mediator is not so "classic" :-D
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redrumloa wrote:
Amigakit is great and that Prometheus price is outstanding!!
Towards the end of Matay you could buy the Prometheus at $99! Now it's $198... My how the $ has fallen over the last few years.
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The A4000Di is a more aesthetically pleasing product in that it replaces the daughter card, the PCI cards are a nice fit (The Prometheus design is stoopid) but the Mediator doesn't have any video slots so you cannot fit a scandoubler which doesn't clip over the chips :-(
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Whatever you buy, buy it based on what's available today. Do not expect updates or feature enhancements. Elbox appears to be actively developing at the moment, but support for the other busboard solutions is effectively dead and who knows whether or not Elbox will follow through with their announcements.
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jiffydos wrote:
Hi All,
I am thinking about buying a Mediator 4000Di for my A4000 desktop. I was looking for some reviews and opinions, which I know we have a lot of here. :)
Is it worth the nearly $300 USD? Based on what I read, it is worth it to me to be able to install my Radeon 9200 Video and cheap Realtek ethernet card.
But, I am looking for some re-assurance.
What do you all think?
Dave
Lowell, MA
USA
Lowell, eh? I'm in Worcester. You wouldn't happen to have been involved in the ULowell Graphics Card project? I once met Dave Pelland who worked on it at ULowell (now UMass/Lowell).
I personally always wanted a 4000Di but decided against it as it has no video slot (too bad). I have a 1200LT and it works great, though the driver installation left something to be desired as it installed the wrong Warp3D drivers (took me forever to figure it out).
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Haha...
No, that was quite a bit before my time. I'm only 29. :) I didn't buy my first Amiga until Commodore was already gone (1994). I was/am a C64 nut. I even used one during college in the late 90s for one semester. Then, I decided I couldn't wait that long for spell check to run. :)
Maybe we can swap hardware living only a few miles from eachother. Anyting you want to unload? :)
Dave
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If I am going to buy a PCI expansion at all, it is going to be mediator. The prometheus cards aren't meant for the desktop cases. It may work, but I want to be able to close it all up neat. That's why the A4000Di is so nice.
I guess I want to make sure the video is actually good enough to be worth the hassel. Is it really that much better than AGA with a scan doubler?
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I can't comment on the A4000 version (could never afford one :( ) but the A1200 version is fantastic! Imagine an Amiga giving TruColour graphics and showing proper photos. Waaay better than AGA ;)
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alexh wrote:
Towards the end of Matay you could buy the Prometheus at $99! Now it's $198... My how the $ has fallen over the last few years.
I don't know about $99, that probably never happened. I think the lowest I ever sold them for was $149 (from memory) on a 1 time liquidation. I had the final stock and what little remained I sold to Amigakit.
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alexh wrote:
The A4000Di is a more aesthetically pleasing product in that it replaces the daughter card, the PCI cards are a nice fit (The Prometheus design is stoopid) but the Mediator doesn't have any video slots so you cannot fit a scandoubler which doesn't clip over the chips :-(
I have to strongly disagree! For a tower conversion the Prometheus as-is from the factor kicked butt! Even in a desktop I used 2 PCI and had 2 zorro in use, plus you don't lose your video slot. BTW yes I mean desktop with the case closed. Very easy to do! I was the first to do it, which is surprising given how simple it is.
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Trev wrote:
Whatever you buy, buy it based on what's available today. Do not expect updates or feature enhancements. Elbox appears to be actively developing at the moment, but support for the other busboard solutions is effectively dead and who knows whether or not Elbox will follow through with their announcements.
yes, base it on what is available. However don't say development is dead. A couple years ago Catweasel MK4 drivers were made for Prometheus, not Mediator, and just recently sound card drivers were made available with OS4 Classic. You can fill every slot in the Prometheus if you want.
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jiffydos wrote:
The prometheus cards aren't meant for the desktop cases. It may work, but I want to be able to close it all up neat.
Ahem..
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2383 (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2383)
:-o
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With a little fiddling my RBM/Prometheus-fitted A4000 has 4 PCI and 7 Zorro slots free...well, just 2 + 1 of them are used (+ CVPPC on CSPPC if wanted). But if I want, I can choose from 5 GFX cards...
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redrumloa wrote:
jiffydos wrote:
The prometheus cards aren't meant for the desktop cases. It may work, but I want to be able to close it all up neat.
Ahem..
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2383 (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2383)
:-o
@red
Yes, it can be done, but it certainly still isn't ment to be used with a desktop A4000 in it's original case. It gives more meaning to use it in a towerised A4000D.
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doctorq wrote:
Yes, it can be done, but it certainly still isn't ment to be used with a desktop A4000 in it's original case. It gives more meaning to use it in a towerised A4000D.
It cab be done and it works flawlessly. I think it is worth mentioning as it is the ONLY way to have PCI cards without losing the video slot AFAIK.
Hey, I have a soft spot in my heart for the Prometheus :-)
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redrumloa wrote:
It cab be done and it works flawlessly. I think it is worth mentioning as it is the ONLY way to have PCI cards without losing the video slot AFAIK.
Yes, it can be done, I agreed with you already. I think the solution is a bit clumsy (extension cables, additional adapters needed, etc). I'd still leave it for a towerised A4000D.
But it's not the only way to have PCI cards without losing the video slot; G-Rex. Admitted, it has higher requirements, but it's still out there.
Hey, I have a soft spot in my heart for the Prometheus :-)
We all know that :-)
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Mechanically the prometheus just doesn't work in the desktop Amiga's. I mean come on:
http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A4D01.jpg
It didn't mechanically work well in the towered Amiga's either.
http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A4T01.jpg
http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A3T01.jpg
I am sure I read that the prometheus creator didn't particularly like the final design.
Matay probably knew they were only going to get one shot at this. High development and manufacture costs meant that the PCB they designed had to work mechanically in all Zorro III Amiga's so as to be compatible and hopefully lead to more sales. I think the big problem was that a lot of the A4000 desktop users had already towered their machines using a multitude of mechanically different cases and different Zorro busboards. They had to come up with a mechanical design that would work for all models.
I feel that this decision was a compromise too far, the Prometheus design resulted in being mechanically poor in all cases. There were things Matay could have done (but I dont think they did) to mitigate the problems:
o Matay could have tried to sell the PCI riser card you demonstrate in your example A4000D. I am almost sure this was a user discovery and a homebrew mod.
o Matay could have designed and sold metal brackets to make it easier to fit PCI cards safely and sturdily. I dont think that ever happened.
It was the right product (technologically speaking) and right time. Just a poor roll out and too many corners cut to lower costs. Matay should have targetted one case (probably official commodore A4000D) and created the best possible mechanical design. Then use the profits from those sales to pay for PCB reworks (and metal work, replacement back panels etc) for other cases.
This (to me) is just common sense... there must be more to the story we dont know... I wonder what it is?? Anyone?
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I must say the Prometheus is the first pci board I bought and believe it or not, it does work better than the mediator on my A1200. I used red's pci cable adapters to add a voodoo3 and realtek nic card in my A4000 desktop without having to discard the PicassoIV in the lowermost/video slot and I still have access to two additional Zorro3 slots (I think there's a serial card and a sound card in them....it's currently in the closet atm). I did install one of those slot fans to help with heat but I ran it for a long while with the case closed and I still had flickerfixed AGA screens available (via the PIV).
If Jens ever releases the A4000 desktop version of his new FF, that would sort of replace the video slot lacking in the Mediator 4000Di design.
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alexh wrote:
Mechanically the prometheus just doesn't work in the desktop Amiga's. I mean come on:
http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A4D01.jpg
It didn't mechanically work well in the towered Amiga's either.
http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A4T01.jpg
http://www.relec.ch/prometheus/images/A3T01.jpg
Do you remember what year the Prometheus was released? Do you know how many competing products were available at that time? And BTW your assertion that it works poorly in tower cases totally ignores Zipper's comment in this thread. In the case of the original orientation, it works better in some cases than others.
Matay could have tried to sell the PCI riser card you demonstrate in your example A4000D. I am almost sure this was a user discovery and a homebrew mod.
Umm, that would be me. Matay was essentially out of the Amiga market and my company, Anachronism Industries, demonstrated this possibility and sold many kits. You can call us doing a "user discover" if you wish as we were a 4 person company at the peak of it's short existance. Here's a hint for you, there is not a single major corporation in the Amiga community. Not now, not in 2004 and not in 2001. Anachronism Industries employing 4 people edged out probably every other "Amiga" related company out there by a factor of 4X at the time.
Anyhow, splitting hairs. It worked and made many customers happy for a fraction of the cost of a Mediator and you never had to worry about hard drive trashing, other hardware mysteriously stop working, license issues or other nonsense.
Matay could have designed and sold metal brackets to make it easier to fit PCI cards safely and sturdily. I dont think that ever happened.
You would be thinking wrong. Every Prometheus was sold with sturdy metal brackets
It was the right product (technologically speaking) and right time. Just a poor roll out and too many corners cut to lower costs. Matay should have targetted one case (probably official commodore A4000D) and created the best possible mechanical design. Then use the profits from those sales to pay for PCB reworks (and metal work, replacement back panels etc) for other cases.
You are entitled to your opinion, I just think it is strongly misguided. You know what year the Prometheus was released? Do you know how many were produced in total? Do you know what quantity most major Amiga hardware releases are produced in? Let's just say very few companies do it for the money and many end up losing money. A common rumor is Matay lost money big time. I don't remember if Prometheus production details were ever made public, but I can say that Matay did not get rich. My company bought out the remaining stock and sold approximately 33% of all Prometheus ever made in one year, in part because of our super aggresive pricing, and to a lesser extent making it available to desktop users. When all was said and done, it was a major investment and we barely broke even on the product. No complaints, it was a loss leader, we did ok overall, mostly on non-Amiga product. Don't be fooled into thinking Elbox is raking in the cash or is a big company. You will probably never see another full new product from them again, just minor redesigns.
This is getting a bit off topic. I like Prometheus, you don't. You like Mediator, I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions.
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Don't be fooled into thinking Elbox is raking in the cash or is a big company. You will probably never see another full new product from them again, just minor redesigns.
Unfortunately this become reality for me... :(
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redrumloa wrote:
You know what year the Prometheus was released?
Late 2000, early 2001? I remember posting to usenet with Grzegorz Kraszewski about AmiPCI (original name) in 1999 when I joined my first hardware company after leaving University.
redrumloa wrote:
Do you know how many were produced in total?
No. I'd like to though. Hint Hint.
redrumloa wrote:
Do you know what quantity most major Amiga hardware releases are produced in?
200 - 1000 units. Obviously there is the price break at 1000 units which can sometimes work out cheaper than making fewer units.
redrumloa wrote:
Let's just say very few companies do it for the money and many end up losing money.
Absolutely.
redrumloa wrote:
I don't remember if Prometheus production details were ever made public, but I can say that Matay did not get rich.
I can very well imagine. I am always amazed any Amiga hardware project ever breaks even.
redrumloa wrote:
Don't be fooled into thinking Elbox is raking in the cash or is a big company. You will probably never see another full new product from them again, just minor redesigns.
They are not a good company. Their ethos is to make money at all costs. But they are still around, hats off to them.
redrumloa wrote:
I like Prometheus, you don't. You like Mediator, I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions.
Actually I liked the G-Rex ;-)
I never understood why the Golden Gate 2+ never took off between 1994 and 2000! At least for sound cards and network cards. It was an incredibly cheap to make card. It is almost unheard of.
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I like Zorro II (good actor play ;) ) but I use Mediator (better communication and mediations...).
Zorro is the best!!!
:-D