Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: mfletcher on April 01, 2008, 02:42:05 AM
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SUCCESS!
Brought my A1200 home tonight and plugged it into my Samsung SyncMaster 225MW Monitor, using a KWorld Blazing Orange TVBox 1920x1200.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...607&CatId=1427
Works really well as a scandoubler/flickerfixer... Unfortunately I was running composite to the TVBox so the picture isnt the best. That and my shoddy camerawork with an iPhone I've uploaded some sample pics to my website here:
http://www.markfletcher.org/amiga/
I'm going to keep experimenting with other programs to see how well they work, but so far Ive tested
Extreme Violence
Pong
World of Commodore 92 Demo
Naughty Ones AGA
Poliezai demo AGA.
I've only just discovered that it also accepts VGA as an input! Unfortunately AmigaKit is on holiday, so it looks like its going to be a while until I get a VGA adapter to try out the VGA input.
I'll let you know how I get on!
Mark
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Wow that looks pretty cool, I might have to pick one up myself. Let us know how it goes with the VGA adapter.
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LUSH!
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Your first linky ain't working.
But more importantly, using the composite input for scan-doubling is the method of the lowest quality (look at that horrid ghosting).
This box would be valuable if it could or would scan-double the VGA inputs, which I highly doubt it does (almost ALL boxes scan-double composite/SVHS inputs, but not all scan-double RGB inputs, such as VGA inputs). I hope am wrong about this box and would be curious to hear your feedback.
Good luck.
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http://static.tigerdirect.com/pdf/Kworld_KW-SA230WP_UserManual.pdf
It's only got composite / svideo input. This is a crap scandoubler for an Amiga.
It does have a 50Hz to 60Hz scan rate converter, which means PAL demo's will run on LCD panels that cannot display 50Hz (at the sacrifice of smooth scrolling)
VGA input is just passthrough.
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AlexH,
Then what would *YOU* suggest as an alternative?
The only alternatives I can see are:
1) Buy an expensive scandoubler / flickerfixer on Ebay for anywhere between $400 to $900. Way too expensive!
2) Buy a Commodore monitor. But what happens when it breaks? Back to square one!
3) Nothing. Im screwed.
Im looking for a solution that is cheap and easy to source. The KWorld TV Box might not be the best scandoubler / flickerfixer on the market, but it sure as hell makes more sense to spend money on it, instead of paying for some overpriced effort on Ebay. If it breaks, well Kworld will still be in business that I can source a replacement.
So Alex, illuminate me with your wisdom, what would you suggest? :D
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There's Roy's unit (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35527), though you might have to wait a few months until he has one ready for you. Much better than EBay prices.
Another option would be to source an RGB -> component converter, then you should be able to use any TV with component inputs (with varying results).
--edit-- Nasty is right though, use whatever is acceptable to you and enjoy! :D
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@ mfletcher
It does'nt matter what AlexH or anyone else has to say about it! if your happy with the end result of your new toy then thats all that matters :-).
As for other options if you really need them:
1) you will find a list of other boxes in topics on A.org
2) Place a wanted advert on A.org for a scandoubler (alot of amiga owners are selling there unused hardware and not for stupid ebay prices)
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Nasty,
Actually Im quite happy with the results. :-)
Sure workbench looks a bit fuzzy, but games, demos etc works fine. I was playing Naughty Ones last night and there was no ghosting while playing it.
TBH, when I owned my Amiga the first time round, I never really went into Workbench all that much.
Im just perplexed that AlexH couldnt come up with an alternative... kinda diminishes his contribution to the thread otherwise.
Mark
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There is no perfect solution. However there are better scandoublers than the one you chose.
There is Roy Justace's scandoubler ($65 for external RGB scandoubler) being promoted on this website and there are the Cypress CM-337 and CM-345S.
http://www.cypress.com.tw/product.php?PId=87936
http://www.cypress.com.tw/product.php?PId=90518
They all take 15KHz RGB input and produce 31KHz RGB output. Both also can scanrate convert to 60Hz for LCD panels.
Non are great but all are better than a scandoubler with composite video input and like a lot of scandoublers, I think they are all 16-bit.
The Cypress products are about the same price as yours (About $90)
http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html
Yours works, the quality is good enough for you, the price was within your budget, the availability was good. Who care's what a$$holes like me think? :-)
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AlexH,
Thanks for the info... I wish I had known more beforehand about what options are available. I think for people getting all nostalgic about their Amiga days, and looking to re-invest in an Amiga, its invaluable.
My own process was something like this:
1) Look for an A1200... Oh Great! AmigaKit sell them!
2) Ok, get monitor adapter. Wha?!? Most monitors dont work with the Amiga, I need this... scandoubler / flickerfixer thing.
3) They're expensive, well at least the ones made by this Jan fellow are. Look for alternatives.
4) Settle on KWorld TV Tuner, as it was the only big brand I could get from Amazon/TigerDirect, with a hope of a refund if things dont work out.
I dont know the back history as to why these (the ones made by this Jan fellow) Scandoublers are no longer available. And I do understand that the R&D required to produce a new design may be cost prohibitive. So why cant the design for this device be made public? That way anyone could get the reference design and produce them in sufficient quantities when there is a significant demand.
Do the rights to the device belong to some company that does not want to license it?
Its a shame, as it would be the ideal solution. But at the same time its lack of availability could be a real barrier for people looking to get back into the community.
Personally, I'd love to see some kind of S-Video solution... at least it would be better than composite. But not having any electrical engineering skills, Im going to just have to wait and see.
Mark
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mfletcher wrote:
...
Personally, I'd love to see some kind of S-Video solution... at least it would be better than composite. But not having any electrical engineering skills, Im going to just have to wait and see.
Find someone who's comfortable with soldering stuff, point them to this (http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/rgb2svid/) website and a few $ for the parts and for the time, and you are good to go :-D
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and this one:
ftp://ftp.kworld.com.tw/kworld/manual/manual_install/TV_BOX_WS_Series/PDF/TVBOX_WS_Pro_HD(X8A)_English.pdf
?
Has a true VGA input!!! I have just written an email to K-World... asking for more info:
"
I was wondering about using the "TV BOX WS-PRO HD" as a Scan Doubler/Flicker Fixer for my old Amiga computer (if you know it...)...
I notice your device has a VGA input... which signal can accept (and process)...?
I would need for example to convert four main formats:
15 kHz horizontal frequency, 640×512, flickering
15 kHz horizontal frequency, 320×512, flickering
15 kHz horizontal frequency, 640×256
15 kHz horizontal frequency, 320×256
from a VGA input into your device (for best signal) to a standard VGA output!
"
Let's see...
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Although it says signal input, I fear that it may be just a passthrough input, like the one on mine.
Actually I havent confirmed it, but after reading the manual and reading AlexH's post it might be likely. Nevertheless Ive ordered a VGA adapter so that I can connect my amiga to it. Hope springs eternal and all that!
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@mfletcher:
To Alexh's and my defense, you have to understand that this topic of SD/FF (scandoubler/flickerfixer, but also of 16bit vs 24bit SD/FFs, yes, go read about it, else another 'caustic analysis' might come your way) has been a very hot one, and we're sometimes assuming people have been following/reading/searching (searching? HA!) at least one of the 10,000 threads on it. For example, as -D- said, Roy's project has been the talk of the week lately.
But of course as Nasty says, if you're happy with it, no need to be ticked about said responses... They're only extra knowledge for your memory banks.
Anyhow, in your case Roy's box is probably your best bet at the moment.
Cheers and GAME ON! :-)
PS. The fellow's name is Jens, as in Jens Schönfeld of Individual Computers.
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Personally, I'd love to see some kind of S-Video solution... at least it would be better than composite. But not having any electrical engineering skills, Im going to just have to wait and see.
Mark
I'm working on both S-Video and Component out adapters for the Amiga. I'm currently waiting for parts. I probably won't have anything ready for sale for a few months, maybe longer.
Details will be available when it's finished.
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da9000 wrote:
@mfletcher:
To Alexh's and my defense, you have to understand that this topic of SD/FF (scandoubler/flickerfixer, but also of 16bit vs 24bit SD/FFs, yes, go read about it, else another 'caustic analysis' might come your way) has been a very hot one, and we're sometimes assuming people have been following/reading/searching (searching? HA!) at least one of the 10,000 threads on it.
da9000. Understood, and I can understand the frustration if the question has been asked a bajillion times.
Actually the best solution would be to create a sticky thread that has the problem, and the work arounds so far (ie KWorld box, Roys box, etc etc. Is there a mod or someone that could do this? Or I could start a new thread summarising this info?
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Unfortunately you are in the USA but for us PAL users there is a simple and quick mod you can do to an A520 modulator to make it output SVIDEO.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~davem2/overclock/a520.html
Take a look through this photo gallery by someone who did the mod:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/84441860@N00/2147322623/in/photostream/
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@thread,
has anyone tried one of those Avermedia VGA Gamer TV thingies ? I had a look - Maplin in the uk carry 'em particularly -
it takes component/SVideo/VGA/TV-RF, and chucks out enough for a 1440x900 widescreen LCD XVGA if required. havent found any detail as to whether its 565 16 bit, or 888 24 bit, but it will take YPrPb inputs too.
It retails for about 70 quid over here...
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This is the same product as the Orange box thingy just a different name.
The "out of the box" Amiga compatible inputs are composite video or (worse) RF. Both of which will give suboptimal results.
IMHO you should keep your money and wait for something better.
Agafaster wrote:
havent found any detail as to whether its 565 16 bit, or 888 24 bit
That is because it has no RGB input ;-)
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alexh wrote:
Unfortunately you are in the USA but for us PAL users there is a simple and quick mod you can do to an A520 modulator to make it output SVIDEO.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~davem2/overclock/a520.html
Thanks I'll give it a look. I intentionally bought a PAL A1200 with UK PSU (and a US PSU to drive it here), in case I return to the UK (Im an expat).
I can still use it to hook it up to my monitor here though.
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If you have an A1200 then you probably don't have an A520.
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alexh wrote:
If you have an A1200 then you probably don't have an A520.
Well, um... of course! Thanks for stating the obvious... :roll: :-D I'll have to buy one at some point.
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alexh wrote:
This is the same product as the Orange box thingy just a different name.
The "out of the box" Amiga compatible inputs are composite video or (worse) RF. Both of which will give suboptimal results.
Would it be possible to use the RGB -> VGA adapter and then a VGA -> Component Cable? The box does accept component through an adapter.
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Agafaster wrote:
has anyone tried one of those Avermedia VGA Gamer TV thingies ?
Those AVermedia boxes have been around almost forever, or at least as long as Amiga SD/FF -haven't- been available :-)
I got one at least 6 years ago that accepts S-video & comp video and spits out VGA, which I thought would be my holy grail of 15 KHz horizontal scan elimination. So I connected my best genlocks to the Amiga RGB port to generate the S-video, and the results were poor at best for text display. And the quality of genlock does matter; I have most types ever built, and the S-video output from the cheesey RocGen etc. is almost unreadable.
Then the bad news. The output almost fried my best multisync monitor at the time. I suspect the VGA output was non-spec, and it permanantly screwed the horizontal linearity of the monitor after a short time.
Maybe the currents AVermedia won't cook your monitor, but I don't think they will make even S-video look any better. The only good thing was I only lost about $45, not counting the monitor.
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http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35527
Jens Schoenfeld has ended speculation on what the best scandoubler for the A1200 is
Schoenfeld wrote:
Well.. time to release some info on my forthcoming unit:
- A1200 internal, plugs over Lisa, no other chip-connections (other internal flickerfixers used an additional Alice-adapter)
- might fit in A4000T, but will not fit in A4000D or CD32.
- full 24 bit colour depth for all screenmodes and output frequencies
- all OCS/ECS/AGA screenmodes displayed and scan-converted, output is always over 60Hz and flicker-free
- fallback to legacy flickerfixer-type 49,9Hz modes at the user's choice
- optional scanline emulation for retro-feeling
- re-configurable design, new screenmodes can be added with a software upgrade
- Genlock compatible (Toaster/Flyer)
- no fiddling with adjustments, just plug in and use
- low power consumption, no heat problems (3.3V design, 2.5V core voltage)
http://think42.com/A1200_Flifi_proto.jpg
http://think42.com/A1200_Flifi_eingebaut.jpg
http://think42.com/PAL_SHires_lace_49Hz.jpg
http://think42.com/PAL_SHires_lace_62Hz.jpg
http://think42.com/High_GFX1.jpg
http://think42.com/High_GFX2.jpg
Production start by the end of this month, availability in summer, target price 129,- EUR each. Versions for A4000D and OCS/ECS Amigas coming up when the A1200 version started selling and some money is made back.
This flickerfixer breaks three rules in one product:
- 16 bit is not the limit in colour depth
- 50Hz is not a "must" when flickerfixing PAL screens
- SHires can be perfectly displayed and flickerfixed
The design uses only up-to-date parts and is moving more than 300 Megabytes of data per second.
Individual Computers: Good hardware or good computers.
Jens
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The K-World TV Gamer Box (1440) sold by Maplin @ £40 in December works pretty well.
So far I've used it on my A600 and A1200 via the composite to my AG Neovo 19" TFT. The results are much better than connecting the composite to the TV card in my PC (plus of course you don't have to be firing up the PC - saves on the environment and eleccy bill a tad).
However, I have also used it on my CD32 via the SVHS which gives a quality of output very close to RGB.
It's so good that I'm considering doing the SVHS hack on my old A600 to see what that's like. If it's any good I'll then hack my A1200.
The TV Gamer Box also accepts component RGB. The most ideal solution would probably be to connect the Amiga to an RGB>Component converter, then connect that to the TV Box.
Having said that, I'd still prefer an all-in-one RGB>VGA solution. Hopefully Roy or Jens will be solving that for us.
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The TV Gamer Box also accepts component RGB. The most ideal solution would probably be to connect the Amiga to an RGB>Component converter, then connect that to the TV Box.
Having said that, I'd still prefer an all-in-one RGB>VGA solution. Hopefully Roy or Jens will be solving that for us.
I was going to try a combination of the RGB -> VGA adapter thats available from AmigaKit, then VGA -> Component cable plugged into the TV Box. Probably wont work but worth a try.
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- A1200 internal, plugs over Lisa, no other chip-connections (other internal flickerfixers used an additional Alice-adapter)
So, a complete numpty like me could install this mod without soldering?
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mfletcher wrote:
I was going to try a combination of the RGB -> VGA adapter thats available from AmigaKit, then VGA -> Component cable plugged into the TV Box. Probably wont work but worth a try.
There is an RGB-to-Component RGB design on the net which looks pretty simple to build Linky Link (http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_102648/article.html) - getting the parts may be different matter though!
I might just attempt to build it when I've taken a course of brave pills (or a few pints of Courage). :-D