Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Marcb on March 29, 2008, 08:26:44 AM
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Hi the new Scandoubler previously mentioned in the news by Iowasurfer is ready to go, I've just placed the first order with Roy.
Let's get behind this and make it a success for him, at the price he is selling it he is doing all of us a huge service and saving us from the exhorbitant prices on Ebay...
Take a look at his message at the link below to find out how to order...
LINK (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4097&start=40#57429)
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what's special about it?
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weirdami wrote:
what's special about it?
Well, I don't know if there is anything "special" about it, but there appears to be a conspicuous lack of other cheap (relatively), new scandoublers.
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so it works just as good as the old ones?
...and/or vice versa
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Hmmm...
Well apparently some of the old ones didn't work too well, but I don't know firsthand because I've never had one.
However, I certainly hope that this one works at least as well as the old ones because I don't think the 1084 will last forever... (On my third one now)And I am having trouble finding an LCD TV with a RGB Scart input in Australia..
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hm, the price went up from $43.. the last time I wanted to order it. but its probably somewhat different than atari.
I was told that it does not work with all LCDs (at least the old version of CoCo).
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After reading the thread, it seems like a good low cost alternative to those extraordinarily high priced SD/FFs on ebay. $950 Toastscan anyone? :madashell:
The only draw back I could see was the lack of support for 24-bit AGA screens. So it's really is a great item for the low-end non-aga Amigas. ie. anyone who wants to keep using their Amiga 500 after their 1084 monitor dies. :-D
I signed up there to register my support for the project. I'd certainly buy one for my remaining Amigas.
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This is great news, i stuffed it up on amigaweb and where ever the {bleep} else i can think of, i know a whole host of people needs scandoublers
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Well, I purchased one of Roy's Atari units and I must say it works great. It is nice to be able to hook up to a LCD monitor and display your retro games and programs on a nice big screen with nice sharp images. Thanks to Roy!!! My order is in.......... :-D
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weirdami wrote:
what's special about it?
The guy has made the effort to build it and is prepared to help other Amigans by building more at a relatively low cost, what else can it be but special? Well said Marcb!
I will be buying one.
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Didn't it turn out that the doubler supported 24-bit?
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Well - I'm buying one too!
It's probably the singlemost important piece of new hardware to emerge for the low/midrange Amiga setup in eons. That makes it pretty special to me. At around forty quid all-in it's an absolute steal. :-D
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Will this work with any TFT monitor though or it suffers from the frequency too low syndrome?
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mike- wrote:
Didn't it turn out that the doubler supported 24-bit?
Absolutely NOT.
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DrDekker wrote:
Well - I'm buying one too!
It's probably the singlemost important piece of new hardware to emerge for the low/midrange Amiga setup in eons. That makes it pretty special to me. At around forty quid all-in it's an absolute steal. :-D
Sure beats paying $950 for one dunnit. :-D
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I've ordered one. At a production rate of 3 a month it might be a while before I see it though. :)
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I will placing an order for one. At least my A500/A2000 can now use my 19" CRT! (I hate LCD :-D, and have plenty of CRT on hand).
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Darrin wrote:
I've ordered one. At a production rate of 3 a month it might be a while before I see it though. :)
True, But beats selling your arm and leg for one on eBay..... :-)
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I am confused.
Does it or does it not support 24 bit? :-?
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At a production rate of 3 a month
Slight correction.... "I make about three every two weeks". 5-6 a month maybe? I wonder if he sells the kits.
Plaz
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Does it or does it not support 24 bit?
The scan doubler chip used is 16 bit, it will work on an A1200 or 4000 but you will only get 16bit quality, not 24bit.
TBH I dont think it will make much difference but its up to you.
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TheDaddy wrote:
I am confused.
Does it or does it not support 24 bit? :-?
WTF? What part of "Absolutely NOT" gets you confused? :-)
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Oli_hd wrote:
Does it or does it not support 24 bit?
The scan doubler chip used is 16 bit, it will work on an A1200 or 4000 but you will only get 16bit quality, not 24bit.
TBH I dont think it will make much difference but its up to you.
For $65 who cares! Heck, when is the last time anyone got a scan doubler for $65? Once the rush dies down I'll be getting one myself.
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>>WTF? What part of "Absolutely NOT" gets you confused?
The NOT bit.
:lol:
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Check this posting for the closest thing I can find to a technical spec on this unit.
Tech Specs by "TIffers" (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4097&start=40#56443)
mike- wrote:
Didn't it turn out that the doubler supported 24-bit?
alexh wrote:
Absolutely NOT.
Is it an absolute? Maybe it will display, just not look great? More input needed for me.
Plaz
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Yes it is an absolute.
The unit is based on the reference design for the Averlogic scandoubler chipset found in a lot of low cost LCDTV's. The AL250A and the AL875 which is not a 24-bit system.
This has been discussed time and time again.
With AGA games you will get some colour/detail loss.
Plus it is an external scandoubler which means there is Digtal->Analog->Digital->Analog conversion which never offers the top quality!
The prototypes had unsheilded ribbon cables which made things even worse.
But as has been said for $65 you cant complain ;-)
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@alexh
Thanks, details I can chew on.
Plaz
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Flicker fixer?
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"The output of the AL250 used in this unit is compatible with
all modern LCD monitors. It even has internal DAC and SRAM
to fix interlace flicker."
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Impressive. I may have to buy one to the replace the unit I am using with my 128 project. It cost me more and it does not fix flicker in interlace modes. I also don't think interlace modes will display on LCDs with my current unit.
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redrumloa wrote:
I also don't think interlace modes will display on LCDs with my current unit.
If your LCD supports 50Hz vertical sync it will.
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AWESOME..just frakkin AWESOME :-D :pint:
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Placed an order :-)
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Kick butt man.
Great job to Roy and the people that made this possible!
Like someone else mentioned, I'll probably wait until the initial ordering frenzy is over.
Keith
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Ima buy em all and sell em on ebay. Bow before my entrepreneurial genius.
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jiminy wrote:
Ima buy em all and sell em on ebay. Bow before my entrepreneurial genius.
I thought of that too but you can only buy 1 right now and it may take a while to get it.
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Ordered! Be able to put that old 22 inch monitor to some good use!
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matthey wrote:
jiminy wrote:
Ima buy em all and sell em on ebay. Bow before my entrepreneurial genius.
I thought of that too but you can only buy 1 right now and it may take a while to get it.
:lol: I was joking and hope you are too
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alexh wrote:
Yes it is an absolute.
The unit is based on the reference design for the Averlogic scandoubler chipset found in a lot of low cost LCDTV's. The AL250A and the AL875 which is not a 24-bit system.
This has been discussed time and time again.
With AGA games you will get some colour/detail loss.
Plus it is an external scandoubler which means there is Digtal->Analog->Digital->Analog conversion which never offers the top quality!
The prototypes had unsheilded ribbon cables which made things even worse.
But as has been said for $65 you cant complain ;-)
So you're saying that it won't display 24 bit colour? :crazy:
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It wont receive 24-bit colour, no.
RGB565 input only and AGA is RGB888
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alexh wrote:
redrumloa wrote:
I also don't think interlace modes will display on LCDs with my current unit.
If your LCD supports 50Hz vertical sync it will.
This is an important point - I have an internal scandoubler in my Amiga, but my LCD doesn't sync down to 50Hz so it doesn't display anything at all. It goes down to 56Hz but it isn't enough.
I suspect Roy's scandoubler is the same - it won't make a PAL machine display on an LCD that doesn't vertical sync down to 50Hz.
J
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I've ordered one also, it should work great (for OCS/ECS stuff) with my 17" Trinitron collecting dust.
There are rumors of a new internal unit to be out soon (from Jens IIRC), hopefully it's 24-bit, as I'm guessing it's intended for AGA... 16-bit in 2008 is just ghetto IMHO.
As an aside -- I wonder if amigan24 still thinks his bud's 16-bit Indivision is worth $900? :-P
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TheDaddy wrote:
I am confused.
Does it or does it not support 24 bit? :-?
It's 16-bit. Correct me if I'm wrong but all AGA games would be supported by that? (They were all 8-bit were they not?) It'd be certain HAM modes and demos that would not be supported fully - correct?
-Nyle
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Nlandas wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but all AGA games would be supported by that?
I'll correct you. You are wrong.
Nlandas wrote:
(They were all 8-bit were they not?)
Crap not another person who doesnt understand the difference between palettes entries vs colour depth ;-)
AGA is 24-bit. It has 256 palette entries each 24-bit.
How badly affected a game would be obviously depends on the 256 colours the game uses. If it uses lots of subtle shades of one colour the effect will be much worse than if it uses lots of widely different colours.
Nlandas wrote:
It'd be certain HAM modes and demos that would not be supported fully - correct?
Wrong. All AGA modes not fully supported.
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Placed an order! Hard to pass this up...
Bob
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alexh wrote:
Crap not another person who doesnt understand the difference between palettes entries vs colour depth ;-)
Hey now, I resembled that statement :-P
@Nlandas
Yeah, it would look the same as using an Indivision or DCE internal. (BTW -- I don't know WTF is up with the DCE unit, as it does have a 24-bit DAC. Though I sold mine long ago and can't test, it is rumored to be 16-bit, and if my memory serves certain demos *do* appear to have much more detail on a good 'ol 1084. I think that's pretty shoddy, especially since it's solely for use in AGA machines. The CV64/3D scandoubler is also rumored to be 16-bit. :shrug:)
Anyhow -- it's still entirely "usable" for AGA, most things will look OK. Back-to-back comparisons with certain demos (or even better, single-color gradients) will clearly reveal the color loss, though.
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alexh wrote:
Nlandas wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but all AGA games would be supported by that?
I'll correct you. You are wrong.
Nlandas wrote:
(They were all 8-bit were they not?)
Crap not another person who doesnt understand the difference between palettes entries vs colour depth ;-)
AGA is 24-bit. It has 256 palette entries each 24-bit.
How badly affected a game would be obviously depends on the 256 colours the game uses. If it uses lots of subtle shades of one colour the effect will be much worse than if it uses lots of widely different colours.
Nlandas wrote:
It'd be certain HAM modes and demos that would not be supported fully - correct?
Wrong. All AGA modes not fully supported.
alexh wrote:
Nlandas wrote:
(They were all 8-bit were they not?)
Crap not another person who doesnt understand the difference between palettes entries vs colour depth ;-)
AGA is 24-bit. It has 256 palette entries each 24-bit.
How badly affected a game would be obviously depends on the 256 colours the game uses. If it uses lots of subtle shades of one colour the effect will be much worse than if it uses lots of widely different colours.
Nlandas wrote:
It'd be certain HAM modes and demos that would not be supported fully - correct?
Wrong. All AGA modes not fully supported.
I am amazed every day at the number of really nice and helpful people here on Amiga.org and the number of rude ones. I was not arguing with anyone in my post, just asking some question to understand better.
Indexed color was always confusing to me. I roughly understand the the on screen palette of colors is selected from a "master" 24-bit palette and can be changed at any time affecting the whole screen. However, I never understood how a 16-bit "master" palette couldn't be changed on the fly as well to accommodate the actual colors selected for the smaller on screen palette.
I never claimed to to be correct, hence the correct me if I'm wrong. Which you most certainly did.
The hardware developer did say - "The AL875 chip already outputs 24 bit . The bottle neck is the AL250. If I can find a 24 bit replacement who knows :)"
So if anyone knows a ready replacement let him know and he could make a version 2 that was 24-bit.
Either way, as others have said $65 is a very reasonable price for the product and I'm going to pick one up too.
-Nyle
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Nlandas wrote:
I am amazed every day at the number of really nice and helpful people here on Amiga.org and the number of rude ones. I was not arguing with anyone in my post, just asking some question to understand better.
I wouldn't worry about it, that's just alexh's way of showing affection :lol:
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Nlandas wrote:
alexh wrote:
Crap not another person who doesnt understand the difference between palettes entries vs colour depth ;-)
I am amazed every day at the number of really nice and helpful people here on Amiga.org and the number of rude ones.
Heh, you see the smiley winking face at the end. That indicates that the previous sentance is _sarcastic_. It was actually dig at -D- who asked me the same thing in a different thread several months ago.
Edit: Oh, I am so sorry! Sincerest apologies. I just noticed you were an American. You dont have sarcasm do you? ;-)
Nlandas wrote:
Indexed color was always confusing to me. I roughly understand the the on screen palette of colors is selected from a "master" 24-bit palette and can be changed at any time affecting the whole screen.
Perfect description.
Nlandas wrote:
However, I never understood how a 16-bit "master" palette couldn't be changed on the fly as well to accommodate the actual colors selected for the smaller on screen palette.
The scandoubler and the AGA chipset are not coupled in any way. The graphics have already been converted from 8-bit indexed to 24-bit direct colour by the time they arrive at the scandoubler. It does not matter that there are only 256 different colours, there is no way the scandoubler can know this, or do anything about it if it did! It just has a direct colour input. What you put in is what you get out and because the full 24-bits cannot be fed into 16-bits, the least significant bits (LSB) of each colour component (RGB) are not connected. Colours which were distinguished by these lost LSB's are now indistiguishable from others.
A 16-bit "master" palette as you call it can never display some of the colours contained in a 24-bit master palette, the information is lost.
Nlandas wrote:
The AL875 chip already outputs 24 bit.
The AL875 is an unremarkable chip. It is just a 3 channel ADC. There are lots of similar chips, from other manufacturers.
Nlandas wrote:
The bottle neck is the AL250. If I can find a 24 bit replacement who knows
Unfortunately when the colourspace is Chroma/Luma (found in CVBS / SVideo)16-bits is more than enough for accurate colour representation, this is why most chips just have 16-bit inputs :-( You're gonna find it difficult to find a chip which is as cheap as the AL250A or as integrated for the money. You could easily make your own 24-bit scandoubler with a CPLD and some RAM (akin to the internal DCE Flicker Magic) but the cost would go up to $120+
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I apologize, most sincerely, to those of you who have traveled to this message under the impression that it was, in any way, connected with the discussion of the new Scandoubler. This was due to an or the error in the scripting stage of the discussions title. This thread is actually a forum for alexh to joke about anyone not fully versed in indexed colour.
We apologize for the previous apology. This apology was unnecessary and appeared on this website owing to an administrative error. This thread is not, as stated in the previous apology, a forum for alexh to joke about anyone not fully versed in indexed colour, but a thread devoted to -- and hereafter totally taken up with -- the...
alexh wrote:
Crap not another person who doesnt understand the difference between palettes entries vs colour depth ;-)
Edit: Oh, I am so sorry! Sincerest apologies. I just noticed you were an American. You dont have sarcasm do you? ;-)
Oh, we get sarcasm - just fine across the ruddy pond. ;-) I just must have forgotten that dry British humor. Especially, referencing conversations or situations that the comedic receiver may have no actual form of reference to. ;-)
In fact I think the King's English would say that your statement wasn't sarcastic at all -
"Sarcasm is stating the opposite of an intended meaning especially in order to sneeringly, slyly, jest or mock a person, situation or thing. It is strongly associated with irony, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound. An example of sarcasm is using "that's fantastic" to mean "that's awful"."
But anyway, apology accepted.
Nlandas wrote:
Indexed color was always confusing to me. I roughly understand the the on screen palette of colors is selected from a "master" 24-bit palette and can be changed at any time affecting the whole screen.
alexh wrote:
Perfect description.
;-) Uh oh, I hope that wasn't sarcasm that time. ;-)
Nlandas wrote:
However, I never understood how a 16-bit "master" palette couldn't be changed on the fly as well to accommodate the actual colors selected for the smaller on screen palette.
alexh wrote:
The scandoubler and the AGA chipset are not coupled in any way. The graphics have already been converted from 8-bit indexed to 24-bit direct colour by the time they arrive at the scandoubler. It does not matter that there are only 256 different colours, there is no way the scandoubler can know this, or do anything about it if it did!
A 16-bit "master" palette as you call it can never display some of the colours contained in a 24-bit master palette, the information is lost.
That makes perfect sense. Thank you, for filling in the gaps in my understanding alexh. I appreciate your repeating yourself.
However, would it be possible to write a software driver and pass the original "master" palette information to the scandoubler via serial cable to the scandoubler? The scan doubler could then map the used areas of the 24-bit master palette to the 16-bit palette to correct for the smaller master palette space. Of course it doesn't sound like this would allow for a cheaper implementation than using even the less common 24-bit chips you speak of below.
Does Amiga.org have a FAQ with things like this. I've been here long enough to see the topic discussed and if the different descriptions were pulled together into an FAQ. It would make it easier for you and others to just be able to refer to the FAQ.I think we all also see how to hook my Amiga to a VGA monitor at least once a month.
Nlandas wrote:
The AL875 chip already outputs 24 bit.
alexh wrote:
The AL875 is an unremarkable chip. It is just a 3 channel ADC. There are lots of similar chips, from other manufacturers.
That's probably why Roy chose it.
Nlandas wrote:
The bottle neck is the AL250. If I can find a 24 bit replacement who knows
alexh wrote:
Unfortunately when the colourspace is Chroma/Luma (found in CVBS / SVideo)16-bits is more than enough for accurate colour representation, this is why most chips just have 16-bit inputs :-( You're gonna find it difficult to find a chip which is as cheap as the AL250A or as integrated for the money. You could easily make your own 24-bit scandoubler with a CPLD and some RAM (akin to the internal DCE Flicker Magic) but the cost would go up to $120+
That sounds good to me. I don't know about you but I'd be happy to pay $120 for a reasonable quality 24-bit AGA RGB scandoubler/flicker fixer. $900USD for a Toastscan or $500USD for a Piscasso IV, just isn't going to happen. No matter how much I love my Amiga.
-Nyle
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You know what? I'm going to take back some of the things I said about you Americans ;-)
Nlandas wrote:
That's probably why Roy chose it.
I *think* his box is based on the Averlogic developers board that they ship to potential customers. Naturally it has as many Averlogic chips on it as possible.
And perhaps there is a price break if you buy the two (AL250a, AL8375) together?
I still stick to my guns and say there is no real profit to be had in making scandoublers just for the Amiga.
Internal scandoublers (the best kind) would need at least 3 different PCB's (A500, A2000/4000, A1200) unless you indend to disappoint some people. All adds to the R&D cost.
We'll see :-D
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alexh wrote:
You know what? I'm going to take back some of the things I said about you Americans ;-)
Well, thanks - I think. ;-) HEHEHE
Nlandas wrote:
That's probably why Roy chose it.
alexh wrote:
I still stick to my guns and say there is no real profit to be had in making scandoublers just for the Amiga.
Internal scandoublers (the best kind) would need at least 3 different PCB's (A500, A2000/4000, A1200) unless you indend to disappoint some people. All adds to the R&D cost.
We'll see :-D[/quote]
I don't disagree at all. However, we don't all do everything for profit in the Amiga Market. :-D Look at Roy, I don't think he's making any money off his OCS/ECS scan doubler or if he is it's not huge.
I'd be happy with a 24-bit external scan doubler. I know it's not as good an an internal but at least it will better reproduce the correct colors. Then we'd have Roy's OCS/ECS and someone else's AGA externals at least.
I'd likely be the first to order if it can be kept to around $120USD.
Anyone out there working on one?
Thanks Alexh. :-)
-Nyle
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mdivancic wrote:
Heck, when is the last time anyone got a scan doubler for $65?
Actually a few months ago! And under $20!
But, I was extremely lucky :-D So it doesn't count.
Seriously now, at $65 this is MORE than worth it. I'll be buying a version 1.0 at some point and hopefully if Roy can make a version 2.0 with the ability to pass-through 31Khz modes and maybe 24bit support, then will get a few of those v 2.0s
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alexh wrote:
Edit: Oh, I am so sorry! Sincerest apologies. I just noticed you were an American. You dont have sarcasm do you? ;-)
:laughing:
Alehx, man, you're caustic! But right on the point as well (and I know, I suffer from the Americano-no-sarcasmo syndrom as well, and need a jolt of reality once in a while). In fact, maybe the caustic sting will be enough to create a stronger association in the reader's mind of the error and the actual facts :-) Therefore new learning!
@Nlandas:
Don't take it so hard...
To Alexh's defense, these topics (16bit vs 24bit, SD/FF, etc) have been discussed to death in various threads. He's had to repeat himself a multitude of times. Search around for similar discussions and more illucidation on the difference between color palettes and color depths.
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Hi guys,
how can I place an order to buy this scandoubler?
I really want to buy one.
Thank you
Mauro
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Hi guys,
how can I place an order to buy this scandoubler?
I really want to buy one.
Thank you
Mauro
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@Mario
Why the echo?
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Mauro73 wrote:
Hi guys,
how can I place an order to buy this scandoubler?
I really want to buy one.
Thank you
Mauro
See the very first post in this thread by Marcb and follow the yellow bri ... err click the link :-)
1 scandoubler ordered :-D
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Eclipse wrote:
@Mario
Why the echo?
Keyboard has/had hiccups? :lol:
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ZeBeeDee wrote:
See the very first post in this thread by Marcb and follow the yellow bri ... err click the link :-)
1 scandoubler ordered :-D
Thank you very much, I've just sent an email to Roy to see if I can place the order.
Mauro
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This is an important point - I have an internal scandoubler in my Amiga, but my LCD doesn't sync down to 50Hz so it doesn't display anything at all. It goes down to 56Hz but it isn't enough.
I suspect Roy's scandoubler is the same - it won't make a PAL machine display on an LCD that doesn't vertical sync down to 50Hz.
J
Well.. time to release some info on my forthcoming unit:
- A1200 internal, plugs over Lisa, no other chip-connections (other internal flickerfixers used an additional Alice-adapter)
- might fit in A4000T, but will not fit in A4000D or CD32.
- full 24 bit colour depth for all screenmodes and output frequencies
- all OCS/ECS/AGA screenmodes displayed and scan-converted, output is always over 60Hz and flicker-free
- fallback to legacy flickerfixer-type 49,9Hz modes at the user's choice
- optional scanline emulation for retro-feeling
- re-configurable design, new screenmodes can be added with a software upgrade
- Genlock compatible (Toaster/Flyer)
- no fiddling with adjustments, just plug in and use
- low power consumption, no heat problems (3.3V design, 2.5V core voltage)
http://think42.com/A1200_Flifi_proto.jpg
http://think42.com/A1200_Flifi_eingebaut.jpg
http://think42.com/PAL_SHires_lace_49Hz.jpg
http://think42.com/PAL_SHires_lace_62Hz.jpg
http://think42.com/High_GFX1.jpg
http://think42.com/High_GFX2.jpg
Production start by the end of this month, availability in summer, target price 129,- EUR each. Versions for A4000D and OCS/ECS Amigas coming up when the A1200 version started selling and some money is made back.
This flickerfixer breaks three rules in one product:
- 16 bit is not the limit in colour depth
- 50Hz is not a "must" when flickerfixing PAL screens
- SHires can be perfectly displayed and flickerfixed
The design uses only up-to-date parts and is moving more than 300 Megabytes of data per second.
Individual Computers: Good hardware for good computers.
Jens
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Well.. time to release some info on my forthcoming unit:
(http://www.whyzzat.com/forums/images/smiles/dancing_banana.gif)
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Re: Jens Announcement.
Great news Jens! I am looking forward to this becoming available... cant wait to get my hands on one!
Mark Fletcher
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WOOT!!!! :pint: It's software configurable, and has a 50Hz "fallback" mode? AWESOME!
Finally, it will be nice to watch AGA demos on a Trinitron... in full 24-bit. :D
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Are you accepting pre-orders on the scan doubler Jens?
Wouldnt want some greedy person to buy them all up and then sell them with a markup on evilbay...
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[/quote]
Well.. time to release some info on my forthcoming unit:
- A1200 internal, plugs over Lisa, no other chip-connections (other internal flickerfixers used an additional Alice-adapter)
- might fit in A4000T, but will not fit in A4000D or CD32.
[/quote]
Dumb question for you:
I've got an Elbox FastATA 1200 MK-III with 2 internal 2.5" HDs & a Subway USB (attached via a clockport riser) on my NTSC A1200, in addition to my p5 Blizzard 1260 accelerator & its Fast SCSI-2 daughter card, both with RAM on them. All this is still in its original A1200 case, as I haven't as yet towerized it. Will there be room to add your internal scan doubler in my A1200?
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Greate job! I think i need at least one!
Do you plain to release external version scandoubler later?
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*Drooools* Amazing
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Here is the new Individual Computer best seller !
I want one !!
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Egg-Chen wrote:
Here is the new Individual Computer best seller !
I want one !!
Careful! We don't want Amiga Inc to get back into hardware and decide that we cant build items for their supposably dead in the water platform. I guess they wouldn't know demand if it hit them between the eyes. They still havent replied to my email. Not a happy camper.
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@ Schoenfeld
where do i sign up for one :-D :devildance:
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Rabbi wrote:
Will there be room to add your internal scan doubler in my A1200?
That's why I added the links to the pictures: I left space over Gayle and the keyboard chip free, and kickstart roms also stay accessible. The Elbox Fast ATA might need a riser, but that's not a big deal.
Jens
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It would put potential buyers minds at rest if they knew if your new scan doubler would work with an Elbox Fast ATA with a riser and if the two would fit together in an A1200D desktop case.
If you don't own one, could you see if AmigaKit would kindly lend you one for testing?
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I believe like some said that compatibility with FastATA for desktop versions would be cool.
What about though towered projects with FastATA & Mediator?
Would this just leave them outside???
OFC for WB with RTG you don't need SD/FF but what about Gaming in Tower version in same monitor (with switcher ofc)?
Great work Jens no matter what! That was great news indeed
Keep up the good work
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Amithony wrote:
Egg-Chen wrote:
Here is the new Individual Computer best seller !
I want one !!
Careful! We don't want Amiga Inc to get back into hardware and decide that we cant build items for their supposably dead in the water platform. I guess they wouldn't know demand if it hit them between the eyes. They still havent replied to my email. Not a happy camper.
They are not going to answer your email. I emailed them one year ago about their new hardware that they was about to release, but no answer yet ;-)
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At last a brand new scandoubler that supports AGA (24-bit) modes. Great news and great job. :pint:
One question:
When you say it might possible fit in an A4000T you mean the tower from Amiga Technologies or any A4000 tower like Mirage series from Elbox? :crazy:
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ofcourse the original A4000T motherboard is implied, no the D version will not fit regardless what zorro/pci busboard is used.
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The best side of the story for me is its price.
Congrats,but be sure to make a video slot desogn as well for all towerised amigas.
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Holy Crap Jens. Bring it on. Nice one & respect with thanks for the Amiga Community.
Wicked! :cheers:
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Thank you Jens.
The best Amiga news I've had in ages!
Do you have a website and is there an option to place a pre-order?
Many many mahalos :-D
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Great news indeed from Jens, now we have the best of both worlds!
Roy has posted me his scandoubler, I hope to have it within the next few days so I'll give everyone an update on how it goes with OCS/ECS.
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We are official distributors for Individual Computers so we will stock the scandoubler once production/QA is completed.
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I havent been following this post, what does it do?
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amigakit wrote:
We are official distributors for Individual Computers so we will stock the scandoubler once production/QA is completed.
Even better news, Amigakit has got to be the fastest shipper to Australia I've ever dealt with!
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Gwion wrote:
I havent been following this post, what does it do?
In a nutshell, Roy's is a scandoubler/flickerfixer for non-AGA Amigas, Jens' is a scandoubler/flickerfixer for AGA amigas...
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Oh ok thanks, I dnt think i'll be needing one since i have just got a Amiga 3000
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Gwion wrote:
Oh ok thanks, I dnt think i'll be needing one since i have just got a Amiga 3000
I'm envious, would love one myself...
What about a scandoubler for your other machines tho'?
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The A3000 is the most powerful i have so theres no point.
But hope the scandoublers sell well!
Good Luck!
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Schoenfeld wrote:
>Well.. time to release some info on my forthcoming unit:
How about releasing a mach chip for a unit of yours
thats been around for awhile? The X-SurfII you said
you'd send one for in Dec of 2006.
>Individual Computers: Good hardware for good computers.
Jens
I'd love to be able to use this good hardware again.
Bob Reising
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DAM! Just when i thought it was safe to save up for NatAmi and CloneA.............
Oh Well since i have one of Robs on order the right thing to do is get one from Jens (Twists Arm :-D ) And I guess I'll also have to wait for the A4000 version too..... :lol:
Thanks for all your hard work Guy's !! :cheers: :bow:
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@ Amigakit.com
damn great :-D I always have great service with you guys :pint:
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So theres one for AGA's now?! :-o
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Schoenfeld wrote:
Well.. time to release some info on my forthcoming unit:
- full 24 bit colour depth for all screenmodes and output frequencies
- all OCS/ECS/AGA screenmodes displayed and scan-converted, output is always over 60Hz and flicker-free
- low power consumption, no heat problems (3.3V design, 2.5V core voltage)
Production start by the end of this month, availability in summer, target price 129,- EUR each. Versions for A4000D and OCS/ECS Amigas coming up when the A1200 version started selling and some money is made back.
The design uses only up-to-date parts and is moving more than 300 Megabytes of data per second.
This is só frakking cool! I have had a DCE Scan Magic flickerfixer (internal) for years now, and it has been (and still is!) serving me well, but the above mentioned improvements are exactly what I was having concerns about with my current unit: less heat, >=60 Hz and full 24 bit support.
Especially the >=60Hz support is very nice! :-)
I assume it needs a Sub-D 23-pin (RGB) to Sub-D 15-pin High Density (VGA) monitor adapter?
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What's the maximum vertical sync? It would be nice if it could framedouble a 50Hz display to 100Hz so scrolling would stay smooth on displays that can't go down to 50Hz but can go up to 100Hz.
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Jens, can we preorder these yet ;-)
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Will Jens' scandoubler work with ALL LCDs? or it has to work at some low frequency rate?
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All that have analog VGA inputs.
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Ah cool - thanks :D
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still chomping on the bit for this one.......
can't wait!
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Schoenfeld wrote:
Production start by the end of this month [April 2008], availability in summer, target price 129,- EUR each.
Any news?
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Two more weeks.
:-D :-D
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Hell! I'm on vacation in two weeks! :-(
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Oh no the "two more weeks" jokes have started. :cry:
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Any news on this is it still going ahead as planned? Can you smell the desperation? ;)
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CaptChaos wrote:
Can you smell the desperation? ;)
Yup. All across the planet...
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another thing to add to the list of invisible amiga hardware :lol:
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Take a look out for the new internal scandoubler / flickerfixer for A1200 computers that is made here.
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.php?p=178076&postcount=444
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TheDaddy wrote:
I am confused.
Does it or does it not support 24 bit? :-?
The confusion comes from the discussions of Jens scandoubler which is 24-bit but not available yet and Roy's which is not 24-bit.
Roy's unit is not 24-bit.
Jen's unit is 24-bit.
I have great respect for both of them for making products available to the Amiga market.
I'm looking to get Roy's for my A2000 and Jens for my A4000D.
-Nyle
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Nlandas wrote:
TheDaddy wrote:
I am confused.
Does it or does it not support 24 bit? :-?
The confusion comes from the discussions of Jens scandoubler which is 24-bit but not available yet and Roy's which is not 24-bit.
Roy's unit is not 24-bit.
Jen's unit is 24-bit.
I have great respect for both of them for making products available to the Amiga market.
I'm looking to get Roy's for my A2000 and Jens for my A4000D.
-Nyle
Im interested in an A4000 scandoubler as well. Unfortunately the first batch from Jens will be A1200 only... but he's said that if the A1200 version sells in sufficient quantities he's open to developing one for the A4000!
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mfletcher wrote:
Nlandas wrote:
TheDaddy wrote:
I am confused.
Does it or does it not support 24 bit? :-?
The confusion comes from the discussions of Jens scandoubler which is 24-bit but not available yet and Roy's which is not 24-bit.
I'm looking to get Roy's for my A2000 and Jens for my A4000D.
-Nyle
Unfortunately the first batch from Jens will be A1200 only... but he's said that if the A1200 version sells in sufficient quantities he's open to developing one for the A4000!
Yep, I caught that too. However, I suspect that all of the A1200 ones will sell handily. There are a lot more A1200 users that the community thinks. ;^)
I might even go nuts and get one for my A1200 too. I don't know if the missus will be happy if I spend that much USD on them though.
-Nyle
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Nice pics but it's all in German.
Can anyone paraphrase it into English?
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Nice.....
Scan doublers FOREVER
When will it ship? When it's ready!
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ManRaven wrote:
Nice pics but it's all in German.
Can anyone paraphrase it into English?
???
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So when will they be ready??????????????
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I hope it is readable! I am not that good in translating someones texts on the fly :-)
--------------------
Little summary from a whole day of building the prototype:
Components in place:
A1K2_Flifi_proto2_1.jpg
Now on the table to let you view all parts:
A1K2_Flifi_proto2_3.jpg
And now something discussed in another thread called "Platinen-Thread" about Georg´s selfmade A1000 mainboard: used "peelable mask". Nice looking even on prototype.
A1K2_Flifi_proto2_2.jpg
For now Im too tired for checking all functions. Im happy that it is working in the first way of building up.
If you are looking closely, you will see that there are changes in supplying power to the circuit. Reason for that was an interfering external power supply. It was already the strongest A1200 PSU that I had... viewing the +5V on an oscilloscope made it clear: noising voltage that was disturbing the clock signal too much.
It was only while high power consuming at "start of burst" of 2ns (nano s.) but still strong enough to cause display trouble and show vertical lines right at the moment where the S-RAM burst starts. With additional filtering this trouble was gone.
Tomorrow´s scheduling is to proofe and to check how much the +5V is oscillating and how much will kick the PLL out of sync/operation. For that I prepared a fan to make enough noises to the power line. That will make new fun.
(Jens)
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Jens, if you ever read this, regular updates would keep potential customers from going with an inferior, but available solution.
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Is there a hardware hacker out there who is willing to post the circuit diagram for this flickerfixer-scandoubler monster device? It can't be more difficult to build that than GB's A1000 board...
We had a little "situation" today with one of the Macs: the Classic ("Superclassic" because it is motorollin with 040) stopped buzzing along. No power on, nothing. Just a tiny high-frequency pitch from the power supply. Now, if I could only find a screwdriver that matches those Apple screws that hold the front face of this industrial-design beauty. It is great for workout too. By the time I get it to work again, I will have moved it half a dozen times and lost at least a few pounds (Sterling and otherwise).
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The circuit diagram is useless without the code stored within the programmable logic chips
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@alexh
Anything Amiga hardware-related seems to have that unique catch-22: without hardware, no software. Without software, no hardware. Or, you have software but no hardware. Or hardware is vaporware but you have an SDK and an OS.
Now we are down to programmable logic chips and their supersecret software.
Time to worship 1084S LOL
And A520 modulator. This little thing, with an NTSC converter connected to composite video (because most of these on ebay are PAL) work nicely with Amiga. With a composite video sorted out, one can find a nice LCD to watch favorite Amiga games on :) Or a big screen TV if you have one :)
This flickerfixer scandoubler business sounds like a joke to me. Too much fuss for no or little payoff. I saw one go for close to $500 on ebay the other day. That's just ridiculous. I would like to know *what* a scandoubler can do better than A520 with composite video output (in Amiga's present situation).
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@a-pex
ok, I looked. Flickerfixin' Wow. Superawesome (just quoting Bill gates here).
Scandoubling flickerlicious. :)
Doubleplusgood!
How do we build one out of off-the-shelf parts?
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@alexh. You asked for a translation of that a1k page with flickerfixer.
It basically says, see here, here and here. Look 'ma, flickerfixer superdoublin' and boy do I have fun with it. Not much else in that post.
Time to kick the tires on that good ol' Motoroller 68K.
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This flickerfixer scandoubler business sounds like a joke to me. Too much fuss for no or little payoff. I saw one go for close to $500 on ebay the other day. That's just ridiculous. I would like to know *what* a scandoubler can do better than A520 with composite video output (in Amiga's present situation).
The basic answer is composite looks like ass, and laced modes may still flicker/not display properly/etc on LCD's unless the image is properly processed. But you are right, $500 is absolutely retarded for an external 16-bit scandoubler.
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codenetfx wrote:
I would like to know *what* a scandoubler can do better than A520 with composite video output (in Amiga's present situation).
You are kidding..........right?
Composite output is terrible compared to any scan doubled/flicker fixed display I have seen from any Amiga.
Maybe for a few games it doesn't make any difference, but for most games and everything else, composite is $h!tty, bad, nasty, unacceptable, crap.
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The wait is nearly over ;-)
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LOL @ all the complainers in the thread:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=821
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@AmigaKit,
Please bring at least one of these to AmiWest 2008 and I will buy it for sure.
Looks great and from the specs quoted, it may just be the best scandoubler/flicker fixer ever produced for the Amiga. I wonder if it fits in the A4000(T) as well?
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OK - added to the Amiwest list :-)
It is the most advanced scandoubler/ff ever produced for the Amiga- it should work on the A4000T (not desktop) - however, we need confirmation from Jens first.
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Party! :banana: :banana: :banana:
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Jiffy wrote:
Party! :banana: :banana: :banana:
X 2 :-D
Already ordered mine :-)
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Thank you!
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remove your link cv643d. That is linked to someones amigakit account a winston keuger from the netherlands. I can see his history etc...
btw ordered one for myself... on my account... not poor Winstons... ;-)
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@CaptChaos
You wouldn't be George of Preston would you?
If so, Amigakit has some issues with their website which should be fixed up pronto.
tiffers
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Yes... {bleep}... :-o
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I was just wondering if Highgfx mode is as fast as hireslaced?
I mean, if it is as fast as that then it would be possible to have a relatively fast 1024x768 8 color WB for MWB for example.
I can not decide if I should preorder now or wait untill later, something tells me these are going to go for 800 dollars on ebay in a couple of years :lol:
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PMail sent.
Please use this link and not the link above:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=821
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Fixed the link... the session id was put in the querystring before thats why you saw names and such.
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Are you expecting a fairly good quantity of these? I have a friend that may want one but he won't be available for a few weeks and I'm debating about ordering one for him along with mine on the off-chance that they'll come and go. I'd just as soon not have a spare should he decide he didn't want it. :)
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We have paid for a large quantity. However, the last time the external Indivision was produced, they sold out quickly. There *may* be a second production run though.
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amigakit wrote:
The wait is nearly over ;-)
holy %%$%^%^ !!! :-D Ordered mine baby...yehhaaa :-D :-D :-D
thank you..THANK YOU :cheers:
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Thank you - appreciate your order :-)
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order placed !!!!
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@DDNI
Great - many thanks!
@cv643d
Thank you - much appreciated :-)
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Preordered one now too!
(better be safe than sorry later) :-)
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Ordered!
Thanks AmigaKit! :D
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Hmmm panic setting in :-)
How many preorders so far????
Will there be stock to fill them all?
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Any info on a version for the 4000D or other models? I can't put my toaster or flyer in my 1200. :-)
Plaz
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This scandoubler looks like being popular so it is likely we will put funds into a A4000 project- but I dont think this will be developed until the new year.
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And another order placed... :-D
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@Jiffy
Thank you :-D
@DDNIUK
Dont worry - your order is booked and reserved.
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This scandoubler looks like being popular so it is likely we will put funds into a A4000 project- but I dont think this will be developed until the new year.
Good news indeed.
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amigadave wrote:
@AmigaKit,
Please bring at least one of these to AmiWest 2008 and I will buy it for sure.
+1
This is a good excuse for me to take a nice day ride to Amiwest (and spend a bunch of money). :)
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No problem- time to make a list of request for Amiwest.
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Hmm, I just tried to pre-order a scan doubler (I had it in a cart with dust cover). Once I logged in, my cart was emptied and now there's no "pre-order" button anymore. Did I miss out?
Also, I wanted a PS/2 mouse adapter but I can't find it on the site anymore....
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My order is in :-D , thanks Jens and amigakit for making it happen!!
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@merax
Pre-order button is back
Cocolino PS/2 adapter is here:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=88
Please retry- thanks.
@Firedawg
Thanks for the order :-)
Jens deserves the plaudits for this great bit of kit.
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Ordered here too, there was no way in the world I couldn 't have done it ;)
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@merax
Pre-order button is back
Cocolino PS/2 adapter is here:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=88
Please retry- thanks.
Order placed, thanks :)
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@merax @amigaz
Thanks guys!
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Hehe ordered one today early in the morning along with a lot other sexy Zorro hardware :D
Thanks again once more AmigaKit...
And ofc a great thanks to Jens for one more outstanding product!
Cheers
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amigakit wrote:
OK - added to the Amiwest list :-)
It is the most advanced scandoubler/ff ever produced for the Amiga- it should work on the A4000T (not desktop) - however, we need confirmation from Jens first.
It would also be good to know if the new scandoubler will fit on an A4000D mobo installed inside a PowerTower case. If/when you contact Jens, please inquire about that possibility as well.
If Jens wants to send me one of the units for testing the fitting clearances, I will be happy to do such testing for him. :-D
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That was clearly stated by Jens on his first announcement. Indivision 1200 can't work inside an 4000D! Next A4000D version will be made if boards will sell and funds will raise :)
Check page number 4 :D
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This device is A1200 only.
@mfilos
Thanks for the order- your other items will be shipped immediately.
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I got MINE several months back and beta tested it...
does works very well..
Guys..
Worth the wait and if your a classic Amiga guru you can hook any svga monitor to this puppy thank GAWD Roy did this for us...
Joe
IOWA SURFER
DEAD MOINES, Iowa...
www.hawkeyefilmworks.com
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IOWASURFER wrote:
I got MINE several months back and beta tested it...
does works very well..
you're talking about some other product, dont you? Indivision AGA was not sent to any betatester overseas.
Jens
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@IOWASURFER
Yeah, your thread kinda got hi-jacked with a different doubler from Amigakit.
Plaz
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Plaz wrote:
@IOWASURFER
Yeah, your thread kinda got hi-jacked with a different doubler from Amigakit.
Plaz
Sorry 'bout that. The products don't really compare, as Indivision AGA is not a scandoubler, but a 24-bit S-Hires flickerfixer. It does not double the framerate, but goes x2.5 to reach 60Hz or more on each and every screenmode.
That said, it's off-topic here. Let's discuss that in the news item ;-)
Jens
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Is the reorder done? I don't see any way to add to cart.
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ordered mine today too, i had it in my shopping cart since yesterday :-D, i hope that isn't a problem since i could not find the "buy" button.
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amigakit wrote:
This device is A1200 only.
Why ? is there a difference between A4000 and A1200 Lisa ? or it simply doesn't fit in the A4000 case ?
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countzero wrote:
Why ? is there a difference between A4000 and A1200 Lisa ? or it simply doesn't fit in the A4000 case ?
Lisa is the same, but it's rotated and the Zorro daughtercard would be in the way.
Jens
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mfilos wrote:
That was clearly stated by Jens on his first announcement. Indivision 1200 can't work inside an 4000D! Next A4000D version will be made if boards will sell and funds will raise :)
Check page number 4 :D
Thanks for the clarification. I am really lazy about going back through threads to read every page.
It looks like the funds to start on the A4000 version should not be a problem, as there appears to be a lot of interest and pre-ordering going on in this thread.
I just hope that AmigaKit will have at least one Indivision 24bit Flicker Fixer left from their initial order, or that a second production run will be completed prior to Oct. so they will have more to take to the AmiWest show. I have too many other financial obligations right now to order one out of this first group of stock. It appears that they are selling very fast.
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ordered :-)
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Ordered mine allready but still wondering: does the fixed signal come thru rgb-interface (so rgb-to-vga adapter is needed?) or does scandoubler has its own monitor-interface; eg. standard VGA.
pictures anyone?
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It will have it's own VGA connector just like any other internal scandoubler.
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Looking at the photo it seems to have a "pin header" at the side, you will need to have a lead coming off that going to a VGA socket mounted in the a1200 case somewhere.
So you'll have to make a rectangular hole in the case to take the socket.
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@Chrome
In Jens news post 7/25 he states, I quote "The VGA display is connected directly to the Indivision AGA 1200. Further connections are not necessary.". The Indivision AGA 1200 is connected to a 15 pin female vga connector included. Jens also includes technical data on the Indivision AGA 1200 that may answer some other questions you may have, it is linked in his news post in pdf format.
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Is it a flicker-fixer aswell then?
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It is the most advanced flicker fixer for A1200 as well:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=821
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cv643d wrote:
I was just wondering if Highgfx mode is as fast as hireslaced?
I mean, if it is as fast as that then it would be possible to have a relatively fast 1024x768 8 color WB for MWB for example.
HighGFX 1024x768 Laced is fast as Superhires Laced (1280x512).
You can try this new screenmode without sd/ff on IDEK5017/5021, Nec 3D and M1438 Monitors.
(54 Hz / 22 kHz)
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Cool, should be resonable fast then :)
I have run 1280x512 on my WS TV before.
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Hate to be rude but wouldn't it be cheaper to import? I know prices have gone up constantly but is this the right value now?
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@Schoenfeld
And where was I comparing products? I said the thread was "hi-jacked". I agree this thread is way off. Amigakits announcement should have it's own thread.
Plaz
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Ordered my two! Much as it pains me to do so I must use this to describe my feelings: :banana:
Could someone clarify something for me: With the Indivision plugged into an NTSC 1200 I'll be able to ouput 1024 x 768 to a standard VGA monitor?
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gklinger wrote:
Could someone clarify something for me: With the Indivision plugged into an NTSC 1200 I'll be able to ouput 1024 x 768 to a standard VGA monitor?
Every Amiga with ECS or AGA is able to display the highgfx mode (1024x768).
The only limitation is your monitor.
In the past you must own a display that can handle 54hz,22khz.
With the new FF you can display the resolution on normal frequencies for vga-displays.
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The add to cart is missing for the FF @ Amigakit :-?. I was about to secure a second FF for my other A1200. I guess that means the pre-orders have sold out?
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Has anyone thought about fitting it into the CD32?
Probably won't fit, but worth a thought.
Now that I have decided to sell my last CD32, it won't matter to me.
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We are stlll taking orders, BUY NOW button is there again so you can checkout.
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Are you going to have to modify or remove the upper RF shield in order to be able to fit the Indivision or is there enough space beneath the shield?