Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Raffaele on March 18, 2008, 07:05:29 PM
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A friend of mine told me that MOS Tech buildings a.k.a. Commodore Semiconductor Group, are about to be demolished!
Site is under heavy cleanup from any pollution. The cleanup is performed by EPA (US Environmental Protection Agency).
The person who talked with this friend of mine has told him that in the warehouses are entire stocks of MOS chips that will be destroyed or given for free due to the fact that the boxes in which chips are stored has been ruined by water flood...
So it is not sure if these chips are still good or even functioning...
..But sure there should be plenty of 8520 CIA Chips that could be used as Amiga Classic spare parts...
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Recent news I found with a brief Google search about MOS Tech:
http://www.commodore.ca/text/mos.htm
http://www.antiquetech.com/companies/GMT%20Microelectronics%20Corporation.htm
http://www.epa.gov/reg3hwmd/super/sites/PAD093730174/index.htm
http://www.epa.gov/reg3hscd/npl/PAD093730174.htm
To contact EPA:
http://www.epa.gov/reg3hscd/super/sites/PAD093730174/index.htm#Contacts
MOS Tech/Commodore Semiconductor Group is based in Pennsylvania.
Is there any former amigan in Pennsylvania who could perform a survey and check if these stocks of chips are for real and it is also real that these chips are given for free?
Sites to be checked:
The Commodore Semiconductor Group site, located in Norristown, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania
Also (???)
integrated circuit manufacturing plant in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania.
I wonder if DiscreetFX or Individual Computers are interested in MOS CIA Chips, or even SID chips (if there any in the warehouse).
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If there are any chips there (which I humbly doubt), they need to be rescued!
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I live in Pennsylvania and I'm not far from West Chester, Norristown and Valley Forge but I don't know where the MOS buildings were.
I don't even know whom to contact or whom the chips would belong to.
I know that you could probably contact David Hayne or Bill Herd at jersey.net and ask them if they are willing to help.
I think jersey.net is owned by Bill.
How can I help?
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So it is not sure if these chips are still good or even functioning...
they just need a cleanup with isopropil alcool !!
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Something tells me that there isn't any inventory left in there. At least, nothing that would be of any interest to the Amiga community. There were reports/rumors that non-retail stocks of parts dried up very quickly after the bankruptcy and that Escom received no actual product with their purchase of Commodore. Their 8520s and Kickstart ROMs are even labeled "Amiga Tech" instead of CSG or MOS, strongly suggesting a new production run elsewhere.
Still, with the possibility of something being there and plenty of contact addresses at the EPA links, I think it'd be good if someone local did check it out.
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More than likely, any remaing chips are from GMT Microelectronics, the last users of that site. See the Antiquetech link.
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Stedy wrote:
More than likely, any remaing chips are from GMT Microelectronics, the last users of that site. See the Antiquetech link.
I'd say that's a very good assumption. GMT would have probably tossed any left overs from CMD in the bin when they moved in and took over the building. However there is always a slim chance some bit of buried treasure might be found. Too bad I'm so far away or I'd go have a look.
Plaz
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http://www.antiquetech.com/companies/GMT%20Microelectronics%20Corporation.htm
Pretty much looks like any CSG stock would be gone by now...
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If we cross all our fingers and toes, and wish really, really hard, someone might find the masks for the custom chips behind a filing cabinet or somewhere.
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A6000 wrote:
If we cross all our fingers and toes, and wish really, really hard, someone might find the masks for the custom chips behind a filing cabinet or somewhere.
Masks for processes that probably don't exist anymore... we are much better off with MiniMig/CloneA/NetAmi...
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bloodline wrote:
Masks for processes that probably don't exist anymore... we are much better off with MiniMig/CloneA/NetAmi...
Yeah, but wouldn't those help improve compatibility with the Minimig and/or give it a possibility of an AGA upgrade, etc?
I wonder if Amiga Inc still has them...
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alenppc wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Masks for processes that probably don't exist anymore... we are much better off with MiniMig/CloneA/NetAmi...
Yeah, but wouldn't those help improve compatibility with the Minimig and/or give it a possibility of an AGA upgrade, etc?
No, and the designs might still be covered by some kind of copyright... best to stay well clear!!!
I wonder if Amiga Inc still has them...
Amiga Inc never had them.
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If someone is living near the facility. Then check it out..?
If you assume there's nothing worthwhile in there, well then it will be selffullfilling profecy :-D
My plan would be to go there and have a look. (If there's someone on site, ask them for access/tour of the facility)
If anything worthwhile is found, then contact EPA and ask them for permission to rescue remaining chips.
Any offices could ofcourse also be checked out. In particular spaces that look deserted (behind drawers, storage rooms etc..). As they are the most likely location for any CSG stuff to have survived GMT. So:
* Don't wait.
* Check out site & photograph.
* Try to get indoor access.
* Get permission for anything to be removed.
Some pocket money + combo car for quick deals could be useful aswell :-D
Looking forward for the final photodocumentation of the site ..
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If anyone is willing to come to the Philadelphia International Airport then I may be willing to show them around if they can coordinate it with me.
I could survey the buildings but I wouldn't know what I was looking for. It would be an undertaking to post lengthy videos on Youtube and the quality wouldn't be that great and going back and forth would be an issue for me.
I'm sure anything there left behind might be trash they were too lazy to throw out and I might be just taking home something that didn't work.
Even if I did rescue something, how would you get an export permit to share it with any Amiga people worldwide?
I called and left a voicemail with one ex-commodore employee and they didn't call me back which doesn't make me feel confident.
If anyone wants to get something from there legally and use my car trunk or store something at my house then I don't have a problem with that but this needs a project coordinator.
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ChuckT wrote:
I could survey the buildings but I wouldn't know what I was looking for. It would be an undertaking to post lengthy videos on Youtube and the quality wouldn't be that great and going back and forth would be an issue for me.
Don't let not knowing stop you - most of the chips - if you find any would be labeled CSG.
Take a look at an Amiga 4000 motherboard for example.
Photo of A4000 MB from hardware database (http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a4000revbmb_1.jpg)
Others here would likely be able to give details on any chips that wouldn't be labeled. (I'd look for schematics too - and take any that you are allowed to but I doubt any are there.
-Nyle
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I emailed the appropriate person at the EPA and left a voice message. I asked for permission and the rest is up to them. Should I get permission to proceed, I need some contacts because I wouldn't know what to do from here on out.
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I would expect there will be nothing there at all, no office furniture, nothing.
You'll never get official access, the health and safety not to mention insurance problems would be huge.
If you "break in" if there are any chips they are likely to be in IC trays.
(http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11593422/Sell_Conductive_Velcro_Strap_IC_Tray_Strap.jpg)
Take care if there are any IC wafers, they are very sharp if broken and are very toxic.
(http://www.rpi.edu/dept/phys/ScIT/InformationProcessing/semicond/sc_content/images/wafer.jpg)
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All I can say is go get stuck in!
You could find all sorts of odds and ends, though not all necessarily CSG.
I don't know all that much about the exact IC's, and im thousands of miles away in the UK, but hey, im here.
My best advise is to spend as long as possible there, get as much stuff as possible, and sort through it later.
Previous posts: Yeah, stuff could be anywhere. So check everwhere ;-)
Hodgkinson.
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If whilst you're there you could take a few photo snaps of the insides and outsides buildings that would be great! :idea:
Its the last chance to see CSG :crazy:
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The most I might be able to get are pictures of the outside of the building if I can get close enough to it. I would be surprised if the signs are still up.
Hodgkinson wrote:
If whilst you're there you could take a few photo snaps of the insides and outsides buildings that would be great! :idea:
Its the last chance to see CSG :crazy:
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alexh wrote:
I would expect there will be nothing there at all, no office furniture, nothing.
You'll never get official access, the health and safety not to mention insurance problems would be huge.
I refuse to "break in" but all I have to do is sign a paper saying that I won't sue.
I haven't heard anything from anyone yet. Maybe someone else wants to call the EPA?
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I received an email from the EPA today. It says that the EPA doesn't own the Commodore Semiconductor property but I would have to get permission from the Rockwell Automation attorney and they gave me his number.
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"To the victor comes the spoils..." Good Luck Chuck, hope you find something, please report back...
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I contacted the lawyer and I am awaiting an answer.
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Hi all,
I received a call from Chuck and thought I would swing by to see what some of the details might be.
Not sure how much usable stock ever was on the premises, especially given the quality issues we had occasionally. I believe the Amiga chips were carried three times around the world in wafer form, unfortunately not stored correctly from what I heard.
As for the 8 but stuff, I would think that that really wouldn't have sat in a post production inventory but I could be wrong.
Might be some cool memorabilia, what I wouldn't give for just what I used to have in my office by way of wafers and plots.
Regards,
Bil Herd
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OMG, we used to hurl these at each other! I remember shaking the tiny shards of "glass" out of my hair from where one had shattered next to me.
I also tried to "cleave" one one time by lining up the flat edge with the edge of the desk and rapidly striking it. Again glass in the hair (I had lots of hair)
One day on eof the chip guys, Dave DiOrio mentioned how to knock a wafer into the geometric sections of the lattice, you take a pen point to the middle of the wafer and strike it like a punch. You git either 5 or 6 pieces depending on silicon if I remember right.
Bil Herd
alexh wrote:
I would expect there will be nothing there at all, no office furniture, nothing.
You'll never get official access, the health and safety not to mention insurance problems would be huge.
If you "break in" if there are any chips they are likely to be in IC trays.
Take care if there are any IC wafers, they are very sharp if broken and are very toxic.
(http://www.rpi.edu/dept/phys/ScIT/InformationProcessing/semicond/sc_content/images/wafer.jpg)
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Its an honor having you on this site Bil. I'm just about done reading the book "On The Edge". Read about your interview in the lobby, your fights (literally) with management, how you came about being a engineering wiz..all of it.. Again..all I can say its an honor having you here.
-Alex
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BilHerd wrote:
OMG, we used to hurl these at each other!
Heh. Perhaps I was toeing the Health and Safety line a little too much, but a friend took one home and his kid broke it and proceeded to cut their hands trying to clean it up. From then on all wafers given away had to be first sealed in perspex.
The wafers are made using some nasty chemicals, I am sure the risk is nominal, but I have always avoided "licking" them ;-)
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Dont know about you lot, but I never lick any computer components :-D :lol: :lol: :lol:
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JJ wrote:
Dont know about you lot, but I never lick any computer components :-D :lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't know, "Licking Silicon" can be fun. :-o
*wink, wink* *nudge, nudge* Know what I mean? Know what I mean?
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Yeah, but wouldn't those help improve compatibility with the Minimig and/or give it a possibility of an AGA upgrade, etc?
The masks for a chip are nothing more than a stack of camera film negative-like things. In order to learn the circuit you'd have to reverse-engineer the stack (probably 20 or 30 masks per chip) together, figure out what the curtiots are and how they connect, etc. all from nothing more than a bunch of IC pictures. That's possible, but it'd be **enormously** tedious. Then it'd help to have an understanding of timing, capacitance, etc. as to why certain things were done. This is basically the most inefficient use of one's time in improving minimig/clonea/etc. Different methods are much better use of one's time and energy. The masks, if they still exist, should be treated only as collectors items to show off to geeky friends and used for absolutely no other purpose whatsoever.
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Masks for processes that probably don't exist anymore
Yeah, but they would make really nice framed wall posters. :-)
Plaz
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@BilHerd
Welcome Bill, nice to hear from you.
strike it like a punch. You git either 5 or 6 pieces depending on silicon if I remember right.
Ah good times and good stories. Some how getting old glimpses of CBM "behind the scenes" makes retro computing even better. :-)
Plaz
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Plaz wrote:
Masks for processes that probably don't exist anymore
Yeah, but they would make really nice framed wall posters. :-)
Plaz
Aye, you have me there!!! :-)
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Welcome Bill,
I emailed you the lawyer contact for Rockwell Automation if you wish to visit the site one more time.
Chuck
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Don't give up hope guys. I once worked at a printing shop in the mid 90s that was previously a packaging plant.
Once while rummaging thru some crates in the back of the warehouse, I found new old stock never been opened boxes of KOTEX labeled date, 1965. So never give up hope.
:lol:
(http://www.herbpalace.com/womens-health/kotex.jpg)
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bloodmoney wrote:
Don't give up hope guys. I once worked at a printing shop in the mid 90s that was previously a packaging plant.
Once while rummaging thru some crates in the back of the warehouse, I found new old stock never been opened boxes of KOTEX labeled date, 1965. So never give up hope.
:lol:
(http://www.herbpalace.com/womens-health/kotex.jpg)
Err... And... well... what did you do with them?
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bloodmoney wrote:
...
Once while rummaging thru some crates in the back of the warehouse, I found new old stock never been opened boxes of KOTEX labeled date, 1965. So never give up hope.
:lol:
Thanks, now I have beer all over my screen :lol: :-P
And welcome Bil Herd, great to see someone from ye olde times :-D
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@ChuckT:
Maybe you could prepare yourself while waiting for the rockwell lawyer answer by haveing these things available for quick action if positive answer arrives:
* Flashlight.
* Chemical proofed working gloves (approx $10).
* Rubber boots.
* Carbon filter breathing protection.
* Eye protection.
* Plastic storage boxes (IKEA has 2$ ones).
* Big plastic bags.
* Digital camera.
* Screwdriver ,flat + cross.
* Diagonal pliers.
* Tarpaulin (to protect the car).
* Backpack to keep tools & finds in while searching.
I think the primary items to collect is:
1) Documentation.
2) Bonded chips.
:alexh@
Toxic in which way?, if this is true. Then ordinary chip will be toxic aswell when broken or "smoked". And I think GaAs wasn't used much in the end of the 1980s.
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The lawyer for Rockwell got back to me and said that Rockwell doesn't own the buildings so I have to contact the EPA again to figure out who owns the buildings. Rockwell is only doing environmental remediation.
freqmax wrote:
@ChuckT:
Maybe you could prepare yourself while waiting for the rockwell lawyer answer by haveing these things available for quick action if positive answer arrives:
* Flashlight.
* Chemical proofed working gloves (approx $10).
* Rubber boots.
* Carbon filter breathing protection.
Thank you. I have access to bunnysuits and chemical gloves as well as masks.
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Bill Herd is one of the scene's legends, one of those who "made it happen". Shame there wasn't that same spirit or market to create new stuff in the same ethos of days gone by....
Oh well, we have the memories and the buildin.... oh they are knocking it down lol, well we have On the Edge and pieces of history preserved in things like the Deathbed Vigil.
Anyone notice how retro Amiga and C64 stuff is slowly getting more expensive? As time goes on, I see some historical computer pieces becoming an investment. Buy it now whilst you don't need to remortgage your house to do so and who knows, when your grand children are grown up they could sell the machines and buy a house with the proceeds!
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Thank you. I have access to bunnysuits and chemical gloves as well as masks.
Ok this is starting to sound like an episode of "Most Haunted". Team ready, hazard suits ready, video recorders ready, thermal imager with silicon detector ready.... time to move in to the old MOS building and look for ghostly remnants of computer components. :-D
I think I'd pay money to see that adventure on DVD. Time to check the popcorn supply. :-)
Plaz
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@a1200:
you're right.. a huge legend. If you havent bought and read "On The Edge", you're really missing out.
IMO if you're a real Commodore / Amiga fan you should own one of these books, its just awesome to read it. I also have Haynie's DVD pack.. those were the days.
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Oh! don't forget, a magnetic field measuring device thingy and a Geiger counter!
A legend indeed, is it a coincidence that you turn up now that things are starting to happen?
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According to Wikipedia one of the Commodore MOS buildings was bought by GMT Microelectronics and the company was liquidated so the problem would be finding the owner if the EPA doesn't get back to me since they sent me to the company doing remediation and the lawyer for the company doing remediation says it isn't their building and doesn't offer permission to enter. Anyone here resourceful at finding the owner or giving more help?
The other ballgame would mean that there would have to be a public hearing and getting involved with local officials which would involve other scenarios before time runs out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology
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Can anyone confirm is this is the building we're talking about? It's a satelite of the address given for MOS and GMT Electronics....
950 Rittenhouse Rd Norristown, PA (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=950+Rittenhouse+Road+norristown+pa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=54.796264,108.984375&ie=UTF8&ll=40.124652,-75.418353&spn=0.004266,0.009978&t=h&z=17)
Plaz
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Ok, I think I found the latest owners....
Velodrome Management Group and ...
Dunbar indicated that a private investment partnership, American Management Group, LLC, is providing financial backing for the project and has entered into an Agreement of Sale to purchase the former semi-conductor plant at 950 Rittenhouse Road, a structure that has been vacant on the 14-acre site for nearly a decade. The existing building will be demolished to make room for the 130,000 square foot arena and a 150-room hotel on the property. It is estimated that the velodrome will be completed within 18 months, ideally by early 2008 for Olympic preparation. Several architects are being considered for the project.
Here's the like to the entire document...
Velodrome Management Group (http://www.lowerprovidence.org/documents/FINALVelodromeannouncement11206consumerpress.pdf)
And their contact...
Velodrome Management Group
2550 Eisenhower Ave, Suite 206
Norristown, PA 19403
ph: 610-676-0390 fax: 610-676-0391
I'd be happy to call (and maybe I will in a few minutes), but it's far after business hours right now.
Plaz
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And here's one more article about the sale and developement...
Velodrome developement project article. (http://washington.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2006/10/30/daily49.html)
Plaz
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Thank you for the information. It seems that only one site is being demolished. Maybe we can find out information about the Valley Forge site?
I may take pictures of the outside of the Norristown building from the road if conditions are good. I already have yahoo map directions. Is there a preferred resolution because my camera takes up to 6 megapixels.
The EPA got back to me and gave me the number of the EPA's lawyer.
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@ChuckT
Thank you for the information
Happy to help. I love a good internet data hunt. :-)
I called the number I posted above and I only got a hard to hear message instructing me with names and v-mailboxes. Perhaps a call after the weekend will reach a human.
Plaz
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I visited the site of MOS technologies (Commodore Semiconductor Group) and took nearly 70 pictures today (3/30/2008) and some video. The sign outside says, "GMT Microelectronics" and underneath it says "Integrated Circuit Manufacturing". According to my map, I was in the right place and one of the locals thinks it was the building.
I'm just wondering how to post it and I wish to give the public a free public license to keep them in the Amiga community if they wish.
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Hi Chuck,
You should be able to upload the pictures here shouldn't you? This would certainly be an appropriate place.
Fester
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I've got my server you could share them from (www.amigaatlanta.com), but it might be a little slow. Or we could put them in a torrent.
Plaz
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The board here says my pictures are too large :( I will have to make them smaller.
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imageshack.us
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I love this. :-D
It's like some archaeological adventure in search of some ancient lost artefacts. You could almost make a movie about it...oh wait, they did.
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m301/aaronlittle/c_jones1.gif)
"Tune in next time when you'll hear our hero say...'OMFG!! The original AGA chipset schematics!!'
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Xamiche wrote:
I love this. :-D
It's like some archaeological adventure in search of some ancient lost artefacts. You could almost make a movie about it...oh wait, they did.
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m301/aaronlittle/c_jones1.gif)
"Tune in next time when you'll hear our hero say...'OMFG!! The original AGA chipset schematics!!'
:roflmao: :bow:
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Two relatives of mine are sure the owners of the building are going to say 'no' to me being able to look around the inside of the building due to insurance regulations. Besides offering to not sue and not filing insurance claims, does anyone know how to ask?
Here is the link for one of the pictures I took Sunday:
Commodore MOS Semiconductor Group (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2487=49)
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Perhaps if your angle was you were writing a story about the end of an era and would be promoting the velodrome then maybe they would provide you with an escorted visit?
No such thing as bad publicity.
You'd have to work on your cover story a bit. Sell it to them.
If they still say no. Send them an example of a few headlines like
"Velodrome to re-CYCLE historical Commodore brownfield site"
OR
"Velodrome to be built on legacy Toxic Waste dump. Are our children safe?"
I think they might offer you a look around given the latter of the two headlines ;-)
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I'm thinking what's needed is some liquid nitrogen in a can, a glass cutter, a black skivvy & balaclava and some good sneaking music.
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m301/aaronlittle/sneak.jpg)
Sneaking Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFxPIqcat1Y)
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ChuckT wrote:
I visited the site of MOS technologies (Commodore Semiconductor Group) and took nearly 70 pictures today (3/30/2008) and some video. The sign outside says, "GMT Microelectronics" and underneath it says "Integrated Circuit Manufacturing". According to my map, I was in the right place and one of the locals thinks it was the building.
Wikipedia says you are correct. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology)
I'm just wondering how to post it and I wish to give the public a free public license to keep them in the Amiga community if they wish.
For the photos, Imageshack has already been suggested, but the last time I checked, Flickr also is not abusive to a photographer's inherent copyright (beyond making you agree that your stuff can be shown on Flickr). That seems to be where these things end up these days, and at least it can handle the load and take care of the resizing.
Have you contacted commodore.ca (http://www.commodore.ca) or the SWoC (http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/) folks about a more permanent host?
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I'm just wondering how to post it and I wish to give the public a free public license to keep them in the Amiga community if they wish.
I just use Photobucket (http://photobucket.com)
Not sure what their copyright position is though.
Edit:
I just read their TOS (http://photobucket.com/terms). They say that whatever you upload remains in your ownership and the copyrights stay yours, though while the images are stored on their server, they can use it royalty-free for whatever purpose.
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Right Side of Commodore MOS building on Van Buren Street (http://s278.photobucket.com/albums/kk105/chuckamiga/?action=view¤t=CommodoreMOS072VanBurenStreetview.flv)
I'll post more when I have more uploaded but this process is slow because there must be a lot of people on Photobucket or maybe the site is converting the data. It is only a 9 second video.
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Someone definitely pays for the groundwork there. The trees are nicely trimmed and the grass cut.
Hardly the ground zero I was expecting from the 10 years of abandonment and the EPA website about the place.
Did you take any closeups?
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alexh wrote:
Someone definitely pays for the groundwork there. The trees are nicely trimmed and the grass cut.
Hardly the ground zero I was expecting from the 10 years of abandonment and the EPA website about the place.
Did you take any closeups?
That's the States for you... it seems to be some kind of industrial park, the whole place probably gets tended to on a single contract.
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My album is here. I'll try to have all the pictures uploaded in two or three days as it takes time. Feel free to copy and share what you want as my intent is to make the pictures free to the Commodore / Amiga and Amiga.org community.
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Nice work Chuck. I hope you manage to get permission to enter the building. Then we can call you Indy from here on in. :-D
Whip and hat are in the mail.
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http://s278.photobucket.com/albums/kk105/chuckamiga/Amiga%20Pics/?action=view¤t=CommodoreMOS015.jpg
This is the first picture that makes the place look abandoned. They've pulled up the grids and added concrete blocks so that you cannot get to the car park by the looks of things.
But hey, the flags are still flying, and they dont look too tattered or weathered as they would after 10 years of being out.
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Now that photo does look sad :boohoo:
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I only looked at a few photos. Did I miss the No Trespassing signs? If the doors aren't locked and there aren't No Trespassing signs up then it's not breaking and entering or trespassing, is it?
If I lived closer, I'd have no problem walking in if a door was open anywhere on the building and there weren't No Trespassing signs up.
Now removing stuff might be another question.
-Nyle
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If someone else wants a tour of the building, they can call around and ask permission, do the work of tracking everyone down because I'm a little aggravated.
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There wont be anything inside. And even if there was, do you think you could help yourself if you were being toured?
Maybe you can skip dive in the evenings/weekends when the demolition begins.