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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: TheDaddy on February 29, 2008, 10:00:28 AM
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Hi,
I have completed my review of the Minimig. Part two with more screenshots, comments, verdict and an initial list of working software is online.
I have also started working on a case for the Minimig, if anyone is interested please pm me.
Could someone please link my review to wikipedia for me?
I have worked on the site until 2 a.m., I am absolutely exhausted!
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Enjoy!
:-)
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Is the moving NEXT button some sort of interactive game?
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Nah, just too tired to try and adjust it... :-)
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Well done, great pictures!
...and, shoot, well now I *have* to find the last components for my Minimig. I'll go hunting for a Spartan-3 right now. :-)
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Cool review... Very well done!
The pictures really go to show what it looks like in the metal and what it can do - very nicely put together!
Cheers,
Mike.
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Well done. Great work. :-)
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Thanks :-)
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>>Cool review... Very well done!
The pictures really go to show what it looks like in the metal and what it can do - very nicely put together!
Thank you. If and when I recover from the tiredness I will try and clean the site up a bit.
:-)
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I can never understand why people turn the date and time "feature" on with a digital camera, its distracting, annoying and outright pointless as all that data (and more) is stored in the images exif :-x
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Great review! Have you tested with any TFT monitors?
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>> can never understand why people turn the date and time "feature" on with a digital camera, its distracting, annoying and outright pointless as all that data (and more) is stored in the images exif
Sorry I like the photos like that, with the date on. :-)
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Thanks straycat,
Not tested on TFT yet but I know already that it works and the quality on both my 19" CRT and TFT is very good. :-)
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Nice review... But now i have to beg the wife to get one.... :-D
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Retro_71 wrote:
Nice review... But now i have to beg the wife to get one.... :-D
These are small enough I reckon I can hide it! :lol:
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Almost 100% compatible with existing software
But....10 games in your test are listed as 'not working'.. :-?
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that is so freakin cool!
i wonder if i could use one to build a portable system....
hmmmmm... 5-7" LCD, couple of PSP battery packs...
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>>Nice review... But now i have to beg the wife to get one....
You get yourself a Minimig and buy your wife a present, expensive but it works! :-D
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>>But....10 games in your test are listed as 'not working'..
I know and some are my favourites BUT it might be my ADFs, they could be corrupted. I will have to test a few other images and the same games again from other Minimig owners, I can easily modify the results on my site.
:-)
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Nicely done!
One question though, why does the kick 1.3 take 512K of RAM if it's only 256K?
I mean, do you get an extra 256K if you are running 1.3 as opposed to 2.0+?
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Thanks Daddy for the review! Good effort, much appreciated. I'm now tempted to buy one, but i'll have to sell some of my A1200's first....
Has anybody tried running those good old demos on the minimigs with success?
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TheDaddy wrote:
I know and some are my favourites BUT it might be my ADFs, they could be corrupted. I will have to test a few other images and the same games again from other Minimig owners, I can easily modify the results on my site.
:-)
Wouldn't it be easier to plug the SD card into a PC and test the ADFs with WinUAE?
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TheDaddy wrote:
>>But....10 games in your test are listed as 'not working'..
I know and some are my favourites BUT it might be my ADFs, they could be corrupted. I will have to test a few other images and the same games again from other Minimig owners, I can easily modify the results on my site.
:-)
I still think you should list "limited compatibility" in the Cons section.
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>>Nicely done!
Thanks.
One question though, why does the kick 1.3 take 512K of RAM if it's only 256K?
I think you use the KICK.ROM (the 512K one not the 256K)
>>I mean, do you get an extra 256K if you are running 1.3 as opposed to 2.0+?
Sorry I have no idea...
:-)
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>>Thanks Daddy for the review! Good effort, much appreciated.
Thank you, it has been quite hard to do within 4 days but it's nice offering something to the community.
>>I'm now tempted to buy one, but i'll have to sell some of my A1200's first....
You won't regret it, it's a great little machine.
>>Has anybody tried running those good old demos on the minimigs with success?
Those coming up son, keep an eye on my site. :-)
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>>Wouldn't it be easier to plug the SD card into a PC and test the ADFs with WinUAE?
I have decided to JUST use the Minimig for testing to get an accurate result, but I'll keep that in mind. :-)
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>>I still think you should list "limited compatibility" in the Cons section.
Not quite, as you can see is already very compatible and we are going to test a lot more games, once I have tested 80-100 games and applications then we can make an average and decide...I need input from other Minimig owners too.
:-)
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TheDaddy wrote:
...
Not quite, as you can see is already very compatible and we are going to test a lot more games, once I have tested 80-100 games and applications then we can make an average and decide...I need input from other Minimig owners too.
:-)
I suggest you add your findings to the list here (http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility) :-)
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>>I suggest you add your findings to the list here
Thanks but I'll keep my list going for a bit... :-)
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We have Minimig in stock now:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=777
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The software list (http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility) is updated.
All your Amiga is now Minimig :-D
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Do you know if you can use WHLoad on the minimig so that you don't have to swap ADFs? :-D
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Thank you very much for a great review! Thinks...Minimig connected to my LCD tv via the VGA port.... Hmmm interesting.
Just a thought,- a few of the games in your compatability list were available as AGA versions I think (e.g Chaos Engine 2 , tower assault.) Did you test the AGA ADF`s on a OCS MiniMig by mistake?
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Also, does the FPGA have to be reprogrammed every time you boot, or just the first time? How long does the programming process take?
And can you "store" its programming somehow (like you would do with a flash memory for instance) or is it just temporary until you switch it off?
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amigakit wrote:
We have Minimig in stock now:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=777
OK, I'm a bit confused. I went to the USA shop to place my order and under PSU you have an option for UK or Europe. Does this mean that I get to select a PSU with a UK plug or European plug, the PSUs are only available for UK and European orders, the PSUs are 220-240v only or the drop down menu is buggered?
Also, I notice there is a drop down for the MMC card. The ACube Minimig came with a card supplied, so does this option indictate that there is no card with the USA ordered Minimigs?
Could you please clarify these points.
Cheers.
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>>Also, does the FPGA have to be reprogrammed every time you boot, or just the first time? How long does the programming process take?
And can you "store" its programming somehow (like you would do with a flash memory for instance) or is it just temporary until you switch it off?
This is new to me...can anyone confirm this?
:-?
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Minimig looks great. I only wish ACube put the thing in a clear lexan case. Anyone thinking of selling a plastic case with all the port cutouts already made?
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I have finished designing the case for the Minimig and I will soon post the pictures on my site.
I hope people like it! :-D
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Hello All,
This does indeed sound like a great games machine.
However, I'm not a gamer. Just out of curiosity, has anybody tried out any applications such as Deluxe Paint, or Final Copy?
If the board came with some kind of Fast Ram socket I would be interested for some legacy applications. (I have yet to see anything that does gradients as well, or as flexibly, as Deluxe Paint, for example.)
Good luck to all Minimig users!
Bob Kennedy
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Interesting review, thanks TheDaddy!
darksun9210 wrote:
that is so freakin cool!
i wonder if i could use one to build a portable system....
hmmmmm... 5-7" LCD, couple of PSP battery packs...
You certainly could. I would choose the Mini MiniMig board if I was going to make a portable system:
http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/mini-minimig/mini-minimig.htm
You might want to check out this video for inspiration (watch 1:18 to 1:32 in particular):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwP0t0kakW0
freqmax wrote:
The software list (http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility) is updated.
All your Amiga is now Minimig :-D
freqmax, can you correct the Chaos Engine 1&2 status please.
TheDaddy wrote:
Do you know if you can use WHLoad on the minimig so that you don't have to swap ADFs? :-D
I don't know, but Dennis is working on multi-ADF support at the moment, which should help.
TheDaddy wrote:
>>Also, does the FPGA have to be reprogrammed every time you boot, or just the first time? How long does the programming process take?
And can you "store" its programming somehow (like you would do with a flash memory for instance) or is it just temporary until you switch it off?
This is new to me...can anyone confirm this?
:-?
The FPGA gets reprogrammed every time the machine is switched on. The FPGA code is stored on the memory card. Programmable logic devices with permanent memory do exist, but I don't see the need right now. Boot time is approximately 15 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2NjNXHUi34
However, I'm not a gamer. Just out of curiosity, has anybody tried out any applications such as Deluxe Paint, or Final Copy?
I would imagine you'd need the multi-ADF support to do this, which Dennis is working on. Workbench runs so that's one part of the equation sorted. Currently the memory card is read only (so you couldn't save work you did), but there isn't any reason (AFAIK) why writing to the memory card couldn't be added to the current design.
I had a thought when reading your review conclusion about the Minimig TheDaddy, when you mentioned you'd like an on/off button on the Minimig. What about if the FPGA sources were amended so that pressing the Menu and Reset buttons at the same time switched the machine off (or on)? You could do the same with keyboard shortcuts. Alexh, if you're reading this, do you think it would be an easy feature to add (I was impressed by the work on NTSC Minimig modifications you posted about on amiga.org)?
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>>Interesting review, thanks TheDaddy!
Thanks :-)
>>freqmax, can you correct the Chaos Engine 1&2 status please.
Chaos Engine 1&2 not working on my minimig. :-(
>>I don't know, but Dennis is working on multi-ADF support at the moment, which should help.
Excellent. So do we just download the code and flash the chip to update it?
>>I would imagine you'd need the multi-ADF support to do this, which Dennis is working on. Workbench runs so that's one part of the equation sorted. Currently the memory card is read only (so you couldn't save work you did), but there isn't any reason (AFAIK) why writing to the memory card couldn't be added to the current design.
Multi-ADF would rock. Once installed Workbench on the SD-Card all you need is WHLoad for games like Body Blows! (mega disk swapping there!)
>>I had a thought when reading your review conclusion about the Minimig TheDaddy, when you mentioned you'd like an on/off button on the Minimig. What about if the FPGA sources were amended so that pressing the Menu and Reset buttons at the same time switched the machine off (or on)? You could do the same with keyboard shortcuts.
That is a great idea. I would love to see the ON/OFF key on the keyboard being used to switch it ON or OFF or maybe a combination of keys. This would be awesome! :-D
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@Krusher
I think you might have to correct the results on your page:
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility
Chaos Engine 1&2, Bubba, Agony, Alien Breed (both), Gods, Impossible Mission 2, Overdrive DO NOT actually work on my Minimig.
I have updated my list again if you need it:
http://www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/what_works.htm
Thank you.
:-)
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TheDaddy wrote:
Excellent. So do we just download the code and flash the chip to update it?
Updating the FPGA is achieved simply by swapping the minimig.bin file on the memory card. Updating the PIC (which is probably necessary for a few features) may require a bit more work, but should be straightforward enough, even if you don't own a PIC programmer.
I've had another idea of a feature I'd like the Minimig hardware to have, which is an MP3 player. Here is an open source project we could use the source from:
http://www.pjrc.com/tech/mp3/
Runs on a small Spartan FPGA, the Minimig hardware should have no problem running a modified version of the HDL code. You might even be able to get video player running on Minimig hardware.
Reason I think mp3 player for Minimig would be cool is that it adds value for money to the hardware, making it an easier sell, with increased sales = even more development (hopefully).
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I have added more titles to the list:
http://www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/what_works.htm
Strangely three games work but with the missing/invisible main character sprite... :-?
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The FPGA can't turn itself off in the current design. But it would be possible to snoop the keyboard. And make the MCU forcefully reload the FPGA and let the FPGA clear the memory on boot.
Any better than this will require a hardware modification. My personal opinion is that the power supply part should have an onboard +5V regulator. Putting that requirement on the external adapter is a bad design practice.
It's very easy to change the software list wiki by yourself. But I have updated some now:
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility
Please date any findings/additions. It makes a lot easier to update anything. An explenation as to why the software fails may be useful for futire bug fixing. Just a tip ;-)
The MCU (PIC18) could be updated by makeing a small circuit board that stack an ICSP connector + MCU socket. And then use that to wire to a programmer. The next minimig board maybe should have an onboard ICSP connector.
(ICSP - In circuit connector for programming)
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When you say that all the Kickstarts work, do you mean 2.04,3.0 and 3.1 by renaming them to KICK.ROM?
Also have you tried the failing games with other versions of Kickstart other than 1.3? For example 2.04?
:-)
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I do not have access to any Minimig. So it's a compilation of what's available from other sources.
Minimig will load whatever is in the file 'KICK.ROM' and expect it to be of 512 kByte size no matter what. And use it as kickstart.
I don't know which kickstart that was used to run the games.
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My personal opinion is that the power supply part should have an onboard +5V regulator.
@freqmax
Illuwatar (http://www.illuwatar.se/) has implemented an internal, switched regulator on his mini-ITX Minimig. We could also use the other great improvements he made like S-Video and Composite video outputs, buffered audio and a larger PIC :-D
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An onboard linear regulator is easy to accomplish. A switched solution is more complicated and costly.
S-Video/Composite will complicate and add cost.
Unless the current MCU is too small for floppy write capability and HDD emulation. I don't see the need.
Designing a new board, a switch solution can be tricky due EMI interference.
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Be carefull with the static electricity of your hands! Don't touch the board components and get a case as soon as possible... You've been lucky.
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it doesnt matter what kickrom u use as long as u rename it into kick.rom
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freqmax wrote:
The FPGA can't turn itself off in the current design. But it would be possible to snoop the keyboard. And make the MCU forcefully reload the FPGA and let the FPGA clear the memory on boot.
Doesn't the PIC load before the FPGA does? If it does, you could have a 'standby' mode when the power supply is plugged in, right? Don't know if it would do much to protect the circuitry, but it might have some benefit.
freqmax wrote:
The MCU (PIC18) could be updated by makeing a small circuit board that stack an ICSP connector + MCU socket. And then use that to wire to a programmer. The next minimig board maybe should have an onboard ICSP connector.
(ICSP - In circuit connector for programming)
Are the pins used to program the PIC connected to the FPGA? If so, wouldn't it be possible to use a customised FPGA core to reprogram the PIC?
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Well...I have tried renaming kickstart 2.04 and 3.0 to KICK.ROM and all I get is a red screen and nothing else.
It seems only to work with 1.3 (512K).
I was going to test the failing games with 2.04 but it won't boot (just red screen). :-?
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TheDaddy wrote:
Well...I have tried renaming kickstart 2.04 and 3.0 to KICK.ROM and all I get is a red screen and nothing else.
It seems only to work with 1.3 (512K).
I was going to test the failing games with 2.04 but it won't boot (just red screen). :-?
Are those ROM images from an A500? I think you need to extract the image from a ROM that is meant specifically for an A500. At least there is an A500 variation of the 3.1 ROM available.
Have you tried putting WB in an ADF and tried loading that?
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>>Are those ROM images from an A500?
Yes, I have also used the ones from my Amiga Forever cd.
The 2.04 is the one from an A500 Plus.
>>I think you need to extract the image from a ROM that is meant specifically for an A500. At least there is an A500 variation of the 3.1 ROM available.
>>Have you tried putting WB in an ADF and tried loading that?
That is my next step, I need to find my WB 1.3 disks...
:-)
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TheDaddy wrote:
Well...I have tried renaming kickstart 2.04 and 3.0 to KICK.ROM and all I get is a red screen and nothing else.
It seems only to work with 1.3 (512K).
I was going to test the failing games with 2.04 but it won't boot (just red screen). :-?
RedskullDC has done his tests with the minimigtg68:
minimigtg68 (http://gamesource.groups.yahoo.com/group/minimigtg68/)
I have never seen a picture from a minimig with a 2.04 bootscreen. But the minimigtg68 can boot all versions of kickstartrom.
Now I found a little but important difference in the 68sec000 and the TG68 IP Core.
The tg68 is a 68000 Clone. But the 68sec000 insn't a 68000 and isn't a 68010. That is the Problem.
The Move from SR is priviligated in the 68sec000. Kick >= 2.04 use this Instruction to check the CPU Type.
For the kick 2.04 is the 68sec000 a 68010. But the 68sec000 has the exception stack frames from the 68000. That can't work without a patch.
But the TG68 use the Move from sr in user state and use also the 68000 exception stack frames. That works fine.
I think the TG68 IP Core is the better choose for the minimig!
Viele Grüße
TobiFlex - the creator of the TG68 Core ;-)
PS: any infos about Kick 3.1 - is there the 68sec000 known???
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HenryCase wrote:
I would imagine you'd need the multi-ADF support to do this, which Dennis is working on. Workbench runs so that's one part of the equation sorted. Currently the memory card is read only (so you couldn't save work you did), but there isn't any reason (AFAIK) why writing to the memory card couldn't be added to the current design.
Going by this am I right to assume you cannot save your game position on the Minimig yet?
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HenryCase wrote:
Currently the memory card is read only (so you couldn't save work you did), but there isn't any reason (AFAIK) why writing to the memory card couldn't be added to the current design.
what implies to upgrade to this feature?
reprograming the pic and/or change the .bin file?
if i am an unexperienced user..., what will be the dificult to do this?
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But the 68sec000 insn't a 68000 and isn't a 68010. That is the Problem
Exactly.
Afaik, all roms recognize the MC68SEC000 incorrectly.
What the kickstart code does is the following
(this is the disassembled kickstart 1.2 code by Markus Wandel):
FC03E2 move.w $0128(A6),D0 See if we are running on a 68010/020.
FC03E6 btst #0,D0
FC03EA beq.s FC041E Skip the following if not.
; Special initialization for machines using a 68010/020.
FC03EC lea FC087C(PC),A0 Point at 68010/020 bus error handler.
FC03F0 move.w #8,A1
FC03F4 move.l A0,(A1)+ Fix the bus error vector.
FC03F6 move.l A0,(A1)+ Fix the address error vector.
FC03F8 move.l #$FC08BA,-$1C(A6) Use a different Supervisor() routine.
; Fix GetCC() for 68010/020 processors.
; We simply load the instruction sequence "MOVE.W CCR,D0 / RTS" into
; the place where the library jump vector to GetCC() normally is.
FC0400 move.l #$42C04E75,-$0210(A6)
I think the "move.w $0128(A6),D0" is wrongly disassembled and should actually be the Move from SR instruction. As this instruction is priviliged the code for 68010/68020 will be executed. The bus error and address error vectors are patched; no problem for the Minimig as these are not generated. The GetCC() is also (wrongly) patched. This is a problem for the Minimig. Luckily, this function is only used very rarely so Kickstart 2.04 (V37.175 tested here) runs fine on the MC68SEC000, as does kickstart 3.1.
Dennis
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straycat wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
I would imagine you'd need the multi-ADF support to do this, which Dennis is working on. Workbench runs so that's one part of the equation sorted. Currently the memory card is read only (so you couldn't save work you did), but there isn't any reason (AFAIK) why writing to the memory card couldn't be added to the current design.
Going by this am I right to assume you cannot save your game position on the Minimig yet?
Correct. The hardware can do it, but the PIC+FPGA code don't allow it yet. I imagine this will be a feature that is added early on, so I wouldn't let it worry you too much.
neuroflip wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
Currently the memory card is read only (so you couldn't save work you did), but there isn't any reason (AFAIK) why writing to the memory card couldn't be added to the current design.
what implies to upgrade to this feature?
reprograming the pic and/or change the .bin file?
if i am an unexperienced user..., what will be the dificult to do this?
Good questions neuroflip.
There are two programmable elements in Minimig v1.1, the FPGA chip which houses the OCS chipset recreation and the PIC chip which helps to boot the system and controls memory card access (AFAIK).
When updates for Minimig are available, upgrading the FPGA is very easy. All you would need to do is change the .bin file on the memory card.
Upgrading the PIC is slightly different. At the moment, it would involve taking the chip and putting it in a PIC programmer. PIC programmers are fairly cheap to make or buy. However, there might be an easier solution, which would let the Minimig update its own PIC through a .bin file, which would make updating the PIC as easy as updating the FPGA (I asked freqmax earlier to see if this would be possible, but if anyone can answer my question please do so).
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I think it's possible to make the FPGA update the PIC, provided that the MCLR and some other pins can be used for this.
However, there's currenly hardly ANY i/o pins available. I would suggest to use a XC3S500-PQ208 for the next version.
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freqmax wrote:
I think it's possible to make the FPGA update the PIC, provided that the MCLR and some other pins can be used for this.
Excellent! :-)
freqmax wrote:
However, there's currenly hardly ANY i/o pins available. I would suggest to use a XC3S500-PQ208 for the next version.
Not going to be an issue. I'm not proposing the PIC programming code be built into the standard Minimig FPGA core, it would be a separate core, written for the sole purpose of updating the PIC, so you'd have all FPGA pins at your disposal.
Bigger FPGA in the next Minimig version is desirable, but it's not necessary for adding PIC updating functionality.
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No I/O available, change fpga or no room for this.
(maybe there is but it will be REALLY tight)
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freqmax wrote:
No I/O available, change fpga or no room for this.
(maybe there is but it will be REALLY tight)
I looked into this matter, here's what I found...
According to the Minimig v1.1 schematics (found here: http://home.hetnet.nl/~weeren001/downloads/minimig11_schematics.pdf), the following pins of the PIC and FPGA are linked:
Link name PIC pin FPGA pin
FPGA_SEL0 3 93
PROG_B 4 207
INIT_B 5 83
CCLK 7 104
SPI_CLK 14 90
SPI_DOUT 15 19
SPI_DIN 16 85
RXD 18 185
DONE 24 103
FPGA_SEL1 26 86
FPGA_SEL2 27 87
DIN 28 92
According to this page, http://home.earthlink.net/~davesullins/software/pic18f.html, the pins you need to reprogram a PIC (18F series) are: SDATA/RB7, SCLK/RB6, PGM/RB5, Vpp/MCLR. On the PIC in Minimig v1.1 these are:
PIC pin name PIC pin number
SDATA/RB7 28
SCLK/RB6 27
PGM/RB5 26
Vpp/MCLR 1
In other words, three of the four pins we need are already linked to the FPGA. The last one, pin 1, is linked to a 'programmers button' according to the Minimig schematics. As far as I can tell, pin 1 isn't a data line, so as long as you hold down this button you will be able to reprogram the PIC using the FPGA.
So why do we need these extra pins again? :-P
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First off, amazing.
i am really impressed with that board. i don't even mind that it does not come in a casing. for hardcore fan's will create their own anyway.
sadly, it does not have hdd support right now. so you really looking into disk only operation.
but for just playing games its alright.
since i don't have an amiga at all (still regret to sold my previous ones) that might be an option.
is there a software list, what is supportet and what not? i read that there are some games that do not run.
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@Dennis
I think the "move.w $0128(A6),D0" is wrongly disassembled and should actually be the Move from SR instruction. As this instruction is priviliged the code for 68010/68020 will be executed.
Nope. That sequence is move.w AttnFlags(a6),d0 ; a6 = sysbase
btst #AFB_68010,d0, and it is correctly disassembled.
This is not the CPU detection, it's done earlier, at FC02A8. Here a subroutine FC0546 is called. At FC0564 it does "movec d1,vbr", which is illegal instruction on real 68000 (at least). Apparently it is not illegal for 68sec000(?), and thus the processor is considered a 68010. [EDIT] It is illegal on sec000, too, see below for update [/EDIT]
Now, some have said that the 68sec000 would use the 68000 stack frames. But if this was the case, then the OS would not work at all: Any call to SuperState or Supervisor would nuke the system, aswell as any bus error or address error.
So assuming the 68sec000 CPU really is detected as a 68010, and the KS ROM works unmodified, then it actually means the CPU uses 68010 compatible stack frames. Ohwell, I guess I could just consult the pdf.. :-)
[EDIT]
Ok I read the docs now. The CPU is detected as 68000 just fine. The problem is that "move.w sr,EA" is privileged on 68EC000 and 68SEC000. Thus exec/GetCC() (in user mode) will nuke, aswell as any old application/game/demo using "move sr,EA" (in user mode). IMHO MiniMig should be made to scan the KS ROM for the "move.w sr,EA" bit pattern and patch those to "move.w ccr,EA" (it's 1 bit change, the instructions are almost identical). Obviously the KS checksum should be fixed after the change. That would take care of exec/GetCC().
That would not fix games/demos/apps using the instruction directly, however.
If it would be possible to somehow "hijack" the privilege violation exception vector transparently, then that would be the perfect solution. The exception handler would read the instruction word, determine which EA to write the result to, and then fetch stackframe SR and store it to the correct location (for data registers the lower 16bits), and finally skip the original instruction. That'd basically emulate the "move sr,EA" transparently.
The trouble here is that to function effectively it'd need to do this without relying on the exception vector table which is poked by KS ROM, games and demos directly...
[/EDIT]
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@HenryCase:
Now you got to check:
1) Does using these pins "the wrong way" interfere with anything else?
2) How to handle the MCLR.
I assume the PIC18 is 3.3V or we have another issue aswell.
I suspect with a special HDL-code and the user holding down the PROG button. One can reprogram the PIC18.
Provided power glitches doesn't happen and certain bits aren't set which requires highvoltage reprogramming.
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Piru wrote:
This is not the CPU detection, it's done earlier, at FC02A8. Here a subroutine FC0546 is called. At FC0564 it does "movec d1,vbr", which is illegal instruction on real 68000 (at least). Apparently it is not illegal for 68sec000(?), and thus the processor is considered a 68010. [EDIT] It is illegal on sec000, too, see below for update [/EDIT]
You are right. "movec d1,vbr" is the Instruction to detect the 68010 and this is also illegal on the 68sec000. So the 68sec000 is detected right to 68000.
Yesterday i make a test with the TG68 Core. For the test I change the mode for the "Move from SR" Instruction to use in supervisor mode only. All Kickroms starts also fine.
But what is then the TheDaddys Problem?
TheDaddy wrote:
Well...I have tried renaming kickstart 2.04 and 3.0 to KICK.ROM and all I get is a red screen and nothing else.
It seems only to work with 1.3 (512K).
I was going to test the failing games with 2.04 but it won't boot (just red screen).
:-?
-
Well, if TheDaddy is using the
ones from my Amiga Forever cd
, then this might be his problem (the Amiga Forever images are encrypted).
To use them you need to start the emulation and use some tool to grab the KS ROM just like from real amiga.
-
>>(the Amiga Forever images are encrypted).
To use them you need to start the emulation and use some tool to grab the KS ROM just like from real amiga.
But those roms (amiga forever ones) work fine with WinUAE or this doesn't matter?
Do you think that the failing games fail because of the encrypted roms? Even if this is the case it would be a pain to have to rename 2.04 rom (KICK.ROM) for example to play some games and then put the 1.3 back in to play some others...
I have also used the 1.3 from amiga forever cd and that works fine.
What do you think?
:-)
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>>is there a software list, what is supportet and what not? i read that there are some games that do not run
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
have a look :-)
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But those roms (amiga forever ones) work fine with WinUAE
WinUAE has decryption support for the Amiga Forever encrypted images. As far as I know MiniMig does not.
The Amiga Forever encrypted images are of size 524299. Unencrypted ones are 524288 bytes.
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What about the fact that the 1.3 rom from the Amiga Forever cd works fine?
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What about the fact that the 1.3 rom from the Amiga Forever cd works fine?
That file is 262155 bytes. AFAIK MiniMig requires 524288 byte file, that is the original (decrypted) 1.x image put to a file twice.
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TheDaddy wrote:
Do you think that the failing games fail because of the encrypted roms? Even if this is the case it would be a pain to have to rename 2.04 rom (KICK.ROM) for example to play some games and then put the 1.3 back in to play some others...
:-)
When you've figured how to get Kickstart 2.04/3.0 working I wonder if you might be able to use an ADF of Relokick to revert the Minimig to 1.3 for some games? This might solve your problem of needing to rename the Kickstart for certain games.
-
if u use this list then u know what kickstart u need
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility
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What I don't understand is this:
Isn't the minimig supposed to work just with KS1.3?
Has anyone tried the failing games with KS2.04 or 3.0?
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MiniMig works with A500/A2000 KS ROMs, 1.x, 2.0 and 3.1 at least.
The file must be 524288 bytes (so KS 1.x must include the 256KB ROM twice).
As far as I know you must use the vanilla KS ROM Image, not any Amiga Forever encrypted one (the encrypted have size 262155 and 524299).
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>>The file must be 524288 bytes (so KS 1.x must include the 256KB ROM twice).
>>As far as I know you must use the vanilla KS ROM Image, not any Amiga Forever encrypted one (the encrypted have size 262155 and 524299).
I thought this was one of the requirements:
from vesalia website:
http://www.vesalia.de
So people who get a minimig will get Amiga Forever too...I am getting confused!
:-?
-
Let me try to explain again.
The files on the Amiga Forever are encrypted. WinUAE decrypts them at loadtime, and when the emulation is running the KS ROM are available in memory.
You must use some program to grab the KS ROM from within the emulation, with for example SaveROM program in BlizKick archive (http://aminet.net/package/util/boot/BlizKick).
For 256KB KS ROMs you need to merge the file with itself so that you get 512KB file (for example "join kick13.rom kick13.rom to kick13_512k.rom").
-
So basically you are saying that the kickstart roms from Amiga Forever cd don't work?
I am sure that I have used the Kickstart 1.3 ROM from the Amiga Forever CD when testing the games on my list.
What I would like to know is if anyone has tested the reported failing games with other versions like 2.04 or 3.0.
Do you think it's a good idea if I run Amikit and grab the roms from within emulation (1.3, 2.04 and 3.0) and then test those games again?
The 2.04 and 3.0 roms I have used (AF CD) didn't work on the minimig (red screen) I could give it a go but this means re-installing Amikit... :-)
-
Minimig requires the KICK.ROM to be exactly 512kB (524288). In the case of a 256kB rom you can simple pad the rest so that it becomes 512kB. It doesn't matter.
As for using different kickstart, it's a simple matter of reprogramming the OSD menu. Then we can have KICK13.ROM, KICK20.ROM etc..
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@TheDaddy
So basically you are saying that the kickstart roms from Amiga Forever cd don't work?
They do not. As I've stated many times already, they're encrypted, and MiniMig requires vanilla unencrypted images.
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@freqmax
In the case of a 256kB rom you can simple pad the rest so that it becomes 512kB. It doesn't matter.
Oh, interesting. Typically most implementations that require 512KB ROM will place the whole 512KB at address 0xf80000, in which case with 256KB ROMs the 2nd 256KB will actually be used as the ROM (0xfc0000).
If it manually handles the mirroring then it IMO could have directly supported 256KB files, too.
-
A little off topic, but I can't believe how small 256k seems now...
Only yesterday I was grumbling to myself how useless my 2Gig USBdrive is for anything but the smallest project! :-D
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How do you explain my minimig working with the rom from amiga forever cd?
Also is the rom.key (3kb) needed by the minimig? :-)
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Sorry double post ARGH! :-(
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bloodline wrote:
A little off topic, but I can't believe how small 256k seems now...
Well, in this case it's not that small as you have only 2 MB of RAM on the Minimig...
So are the compatibility issues maily due to the 68sec000 or the chipset implementation? Would it actually help to add a "standard" 68000 maybe connected through a voltage regulator?
-
Missing sprites and such glitches are due to chipset implementation and should be possible to fix easily.
68ec000/68sec000 only causes trouble with games/demos/apps that use "move from sr" in user mode, or call GetCC() [as long as GetCC is not patched].
I'd estimate most trouble are from the chipset emulation issues, rather than "move from sr".
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@TheDaddy
How do you explain my minimig working with the rom from amiga forever cd?
Well, I checked with AF6. At least that CD only has encrypted KS 1.3 ROM.
What is the location and size of the file on the CD? And which AF version is it?
-
>>Well, I checked with AF6. At least that CD only has encrypted KS 1.3 ROM.
I can't find my AF6 cd (I think it is) but I have them all saved on an Amiga hard disk and two of them are 524,288 (one 3.0 the other 1.3).
I am going to rename the 3.0 one to KICK.ROM and see what the minimig makes of it. If it reads it fine I should get the animated floppy is this correct?
But you might be right though it looks like all the other Kickstarts I have are XXX,299 (encrypted) plus one or two 256KB.
I'll let you know what happens to the minimig when it boots with the 3.0 renamed to KICK.ROM.
Also, I forgot to ask, does the minimig need the rom.key file (3KB)?
Thanks :-)
-
MiniMig does not support decrypting the image so the keyfile won't help.
AF/WinUAE uses that key to decrypt the other files. As said before, you can save the decrypted files from within emulation...
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im testing all games with an original grab of the kickrom
i know wizard66 uses the originalls too
as the list stated he tried all kickstarts and they work
if a game fails in kickstart 1.3..then later on we can test them in other kickstarts
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility
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Just a clatification: AF kickstart roms are 100% identical to the "original" ones, after you save the decrypted version.
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@ Piru and amazing
Good news!
I have got 2 working Kickstarts (3.0 and 1.3 both renamed to KICK.ROM) and they both work!
Like you said Piru, the not crypted ones should work. It doesn't look like it makes any difference by using the 1.3 over the 3.0 (apart from the animated diskette in 3.0! NICE!) because I have tested the games failing under 1.3 and they fail the same under 3.0.. Same story for the ones which have graphics corruption or missing sprites. Same results for both. So I might just as well use Kickstart 3.0 which looks better :-)
I am afraid for compatibility issues will have to wait for an updated minimig.bin...
What do you think?
Piru thanks for the help I'll mention you in the review if it's ok with you. :-)
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freqmax wrote:
@HenryCase:
Now you got to check:
1) Does using these pins "the wrong way" interfere with anything else?
2) How to handle the MCLR.
I assume the PIC18 is 3.3V or we have another issue aswell.
I suspect with a special HDL-code and the user holding down the PROG button. One can reprogram the PIC18.
Provided power glitches doesn't happen and certain bits aren't set which requires highvoltage reprogramming.
Page 140-141 of this document, http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds099.pdf , shows pin capabilities for XC3S400-PQ208 (used in Minimig v1.1). Pins 86, 87 and 92 are described as "Configuration pin, then possible user I/O". Good to know these pins aren't input only.
The PIC used in Minimig v1.1, PIC18LF252, runs at 3.3V. However this may be an issue:
http://web.comhem.se/illuwatarproject_pages/minimig/minimig.htm
"I didn't realise that erasing a PIC requires 5 V"
However, as you can see, Illuwatar has already achieved a form of ICSP for the PIC...
"A larger PIC to make the board funnier. This addition was not really needed, but I wanted to have the option to add an LCD. To simplify things, I just changed the PIC18LF252 to a PIC18LF452. By donig this, I could still use the original code by keeping the original pin assigment. I also added ICSP, but that ended up little bit odd in the first version. As an AVR-guy, I didn't realise that erasing a PIC requires 5 V... The solution will be a bootloader that allows programming of the firmware via the serial port."
We might be in luck, it's possible PIC reprogramming can be done with the current Minimig design:
http://home.hetnet.nl/~weeren001/minimig_building.html
"Although the PIC can be directly programmed with the necessary firmware, I strongly suggest the use of a bootloader. A bootlader makes it possible to reprogram the PIC through the serial port. To serial select jumper is designed to facilitate this. By setting the jumper to "MCU", a null-modem cable can be used to connect the Minimig to a PC. This way, new firmware can be downloaded without removing the PIC from the Minimig board. I use the Tiny PIC Bootloader by Claudiu Chiculita. This bootloader is easy to use and works reliably. Please follow the link on the links page to download the bootloader. When you use this bootloader (and you should!) program the file called "tinybld_18F252_20MHz.HEX" (inluded in the Tiny PIC Bootloader archive) into the PIC using a programmer. Then use the Tiny PIC Bootloader download tool to download the Minimig firmware into the PIC. This will make future updates much easier."
How can we check that ACube have included the Tiny PIC Bootloader Dennis recommends in their builds? Is there a way of reading PIC contents at runtime?
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TheDaddy wrote:
I thought this was one of the requirements:
http://www.vesalia.de/?(and a LONG STRING)
@TheDaddy
Could you please edit your URL to use tinyurl (http://tinyurl.com/) in your message instead?
It screws up the formating of the forum.
-
@denli
No need to use tinyurl. Just use:
{url=fullurlhere}description{/url}
and replace {} with [].
-
Hi,
I have updated the compatibility list, if anyone is interested;
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
ACube have sold all the available Minimigs so please email me your results.
Thanks :-)
-
They've sold them to other shops... the shops may not have sold them. They are still listed as in stock in AmigaKit.com for example.
-
Vesalia sold out too... It's only AmigaKit ATM... :-D
I wonder how many MiniMigs were produced in this first line of production. Any ideas? :-?
-
hahah and nobody wanted to buy a broken a500? :-D :-D
-
That's what I originally said. Looks like I was proved wrong.
But if they only made 10, it's hardly amazing they sold out ;-)
-
But if they only made 10, it's hardly amazing they sold out
10? What kind of manufacturer are they? :eek:
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Piru wrote:
@denli
No need to use tinyurl. Just use:
{url=fullurlhere}description{/url}
and replace {} with [].
That would work to of course :-)
-
I hope they have some more available in July.
Want one for the new house I'll hopefully have by then.
-
Hattig wrote:
I hope they have some more available in July.
It's a shame that Acube won't invest in MiniMig development...
-
I sent them an email to see if they would send me a developers board in return for a few hours work towards the NTSC changes but never heard back, which is not suprising :-)
-
Piru wrote:
Missing sprites and such glitches are due to chipset implementation and should be possible to fix easily.
68ec000/68sec000 only causes trouble with games/demos/apps that use "move from sr" in user mode, or call GetCC() [as long as GetCC is not patched].
I'd estimate most trouble are from the chipset emulation issues, rather than "move from sr".
This is really weird. I've just had a friend try out a CPU checker I wrote, his MiniMig executes "move sr,d1" just fine in user mode.
In fact, when I read the sec000 documents, they say it's object code compatible with the ec000, and in ec000um.pdf, move from sr is NOT marked as being supervisor only.
What the *** is going on here? Which document says it's supervisor only? Has anyone confirmed it is in fact privileged? I'm not going to offer my checker for anyone to try, it would be better with another separately developed program, I'm not ruling out any bugs in my code just yet ;)
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riftcon wrote:
Which document says it's supervisor only?
M68000PRM.pdf Page 6-17
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TobiFlex wrote:
riftcon wrote:
Which document says it's supervisor only?
M68000PRM.pdf Page 6-17
Interesting. 1-15 in EC000UM.pdf says it isn't.
I'm fairly certain my code is correct, as it correctly detects '000 to '060, the instruction is used as the very first check. If the code didn't work, '010 detection would be broken. Very odd.
-
EC000UM.pdf indeed suggests it would be ok from user state. This wouldn't be the first time the motorola/freescale documentation is wrong.
If it indeed works in from user mode then the CPU should be pretty much fully compatible. That'd be nice indeed.
[EIDT]
But hmm that pdf looks like SCM68000 manual. How very confusing.
[/EDIT]
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riftcon wrote:
Interesting. 1-15 in EC000UM.pdf says it isn't.
The EC000UM.pdf describe the SCM68000. This is a freescale core processor. With other words: this is the 68K IP Core from freescale and this is not a document about the 68EC000.
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TobiFlex wrote:
The EC000UM.pdf describe the SCM68000. This is a freescale core processor. With other words: this is the 68K IP Core from freescale and this is not a document about the 68EC000.
Fair enough. I don't know what the 68SEC000 is based on, but I'm now 100% certain that user mode move from sr works on the MiniMig. I've tried out a real simple program that reads sr and prints it to the console (the result here is 0004 which is what I would expect), it doesn't try to be clever and detect the CPU.
There's a bootable ADF containing the program AND its source here (http://rapidshare.com/files/99676099/detectcpu.zip.html), for people to try out (it's neither fast, pretty or clever). If move from sr doesn't work in user mode, it will crash. If it does, you should see the sr register's contents (after which the cpu detect program is run and detects it as a 68000). If the first program crashes, the DetectCPU program should print 68SEC000, although you will have to edit the startup-sequence to not run PrintSR so it actually gets that far.
-
Perhaps is "Move from SR" privileged on the 68EC000 and not privileged on the 68SEC000 ???
Very intresting!
What about "Move from CCR"? It is illegal on the 68000.
[EDIT]
What's matter on the 68ec000 and 68sec000?
[/EDIT]
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TobiFlex wrote:
Perhaps is "Move from SR" privileged on the 68EC000 and not privileged on the 68SEC000 ???
Very intresting!
What about "Move from CCR"? It is illegal on the 68000.
What is happend on the 68ec000 and 68sec000?
I just don't know. I'm kinda thinking that they've fixed the hardware in the documentation - perhaps they've simply documented the instruction as being privileged to stop people from using it in user mode to ensure compatibility with other later chips, while still being 100% compatible with old 68000 code?
Regarding kickstart 2.0 on the MiniMig... these are not the droids we're looking for :-D
EDIT: And yes - this is extremely interesting. I wonder if there's another way to detect the SEC.
-
Update: Had my friend try out a program with the "move from ccr" instruction on the MiniMig. This crashes, so the SEC looks like it's a standard 68000 so far...
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riftcon wrote:
Update: Had my friend try out a program with the "move from ccr" instruction on the MiniMig. This crashes, so the SEC looks like it's a standard 68000 so far...
Ah! Thank you for this. Now we must find somebody who can try this on a 68EC000. Is anybody here???
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TobiFlex wrote:
Ah! Thank you for this. Now we must find somebody who can try this on a 68EC000. Is anybody here???
Who is likely to have this type of processor? Would it need to be in an Amiga?
-
More than anything I am getting worried about the compatibility...I have been testing more games and some real classics and they all fail...
Any news about an updated minimig.bin file? :-?
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@TobiFlex
What about "Move from CCR"? It is illegal on the 68000.
It is.
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Piru wrote:
@TobiFlex
What about "Move from CCR"? It is illegal on the 68000.
It is.
That is what i say.
but i also ask
"What's matter on the 68ec000 and 68sec000?"
For the 68SEC000 is the answer:
it is illegal.
But now the question:
Is "Move from CCR" on the 68EC000 illegal or privileged?
-
Does anyone know if there is going to be an update for the minimig? Compatibility issues are really starting to annoy me! :angry:
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@TheDaddy
Unbelievable...I don't know what to say...
From AlexH on EAB:
"The first was a Wiki one, made so could edit it to add new titles
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_..._compatibility
And then some stoopid git decided he wanted to start his own non editable one and some mindless people have supported it:
http://www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/what_works.htm
Doesnt everyone realise that co-operation and user editable content is the future of the internet?"
Now what I would like to know is:
1) Is there a need to call people stupid?
2) It doesn't say anywhere that other people can't start their own list, as we know there is at least another one around. Is this the way you get repaid for your hard work, for wanting to spread the word and invite people to support and buy new Amiga products?
3) This isn't the best way to encourage people is it?
4) If I am not mistaken, my list and review came way before the wiki one
5) What is wrong with having more than one list, I think it's a positive thing so we can cross reference and double check.
6) What is this rubbish; "Doesnt everyone realise that co-operation and user editable content is the future of the internet?" And who says so? I am not going to allow people to modify my list, there is an email contact for that, and there is wiki.
7) :-x and :-(
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TheDaddy wrote:
@TheDaddy
Unbelievable...I don't know what to say...
From AlexH on EAB:
"The first was a Wiki one, made so could edit it to add new titles
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_..._compatibility
And then some stoopid git decided he wanted to start his own non editable one and some mindless people have supported it:
http://www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/what_works.htm
Doesnt everyone realise that co-operation and user editable content is the future of the internet?"
Now what I would like to know is:
1) Is there a need to call people stupid?
2) It doesn't say anywhere that other people can't start their own list, as we know there is at least another one around. Is this the way you get repaid for your hard work, for wanting to spread the word and invite people to support and buy new Amiga products?
3) This isn't the best way to encourage people is it?
4) If I am not mistaken, my list and review came way before the wiki one
5) What is wrong with having more than one list, I think it's a positive thing so we can cross reference and double check.
6) What is this rubbish; "Doesnt everyone realise that co-operation and user editable content is the future of the internet?" And who says so? I am not going to allow people to modify my list, there is an email contact for that, and there is wiki.
7) :-x and :-(
People should try to add more games to these compatibility lists, thats what they are there for.
I dont see any problem with having two lists
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Andeda wrote:
People should try to add more games to these compatibility lists, thats what they are there for.
I dont see any problem with having two lists
I know theDaddy is working hard on his list and I've been adding a number of games and programs to the Minimig Wiki (http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Software_compatibility) recently. I would urge all Minimig owners to add their testing to the lists (you don't need to sign up for the Wiki) and help the Minimig project :-)