Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: fatman2021 on July 30, 2003, 09:27:12 PM
-
If you would like to see the PowerPC G5 CPU on
AmigaOne EX systems reply here...
-
baby steps first.. let 'em get Aos 4 out. ;)
-
A G5? To raise the A1 price even higher, delay it even longer, only to have people demand a G6 when they're finally shipping?
-
AmigaONE EX? Do you mean the XE :-P
I'd love to see a G5 AmigaTWO or something. The current XE isn't up to it obviously (even if it could handle the 970, it doesn't have all the fast busses and stuff needed to get max performance)
-
Hey, who wouldn't? Thing is, the processor bus is an entirely different animal from the MPX(?) bus used on most G3s/G4s, and even with huge caches around the CPU, the math doesn't work out for most memory accesses.
Remember, if you can't fetch or write to RAM, you're spinning cycles doing nothing, and that doesn't equate to better performance. Prefetching and write buffering can help, but PC133 just doesn't cut it too well for a chip that can actually bust out work at GHz rates, and by the time you work out the bridge chips necessary to go from MPX<->"Elastic bus(?)" [What's Apple's name for the new one, anyway?], you've created something that probably costs the same as a 'straight' quad-CPU box from IBM.
Remember, one of the things that made the original Amiga so great was that the memory ran *faster* than the 68000; the custom chips could sneak in on opposite clocks, and the CPU rarely had to take any wait states. Contrast this to other designs of the time, where DMA was rare, and the CPU actually had to direct the fetching of every piece of data, and the sending of it to RAM, framebuffer or disk.
-
Hmm, Mai was making some chipset for the G5 if I remember (? ), maybe they'll have boards like the Teron soon. So It's not completely out.
-
Sure. But lets get the 32bit OS rewritten and running on 32 bit hardware first.
Then add the new 3D api.
Then add the new Filesystem.
Then get the apps moved away from 68k... etc etc :-D
-
Keep on dreaming this wont happen anytime soon . :-o
-
I demand a G5 upgrade for my Apple //e first.
PS: You still don't have an OS :lol:
-
PS: You still don't have an OS
You might find this is why a lot of people don't like you and mostly skip your posts.
-
It would not be realistic.
But I would like to see a G5 capable CPU slot in AmigaTwo (&peg3), in y2004-2005.
In the meantime, let's try to get AOS4 (&peg2) out first.
-
@ strobe
PS: You still don't have an OS
A bit sad.
-
MPX<->"Elastic bus(?)" [What's Apple's name for the new one, anyway?],
I think it is API, Apple Processor Interconnect. Designed by Apple and made/implemented by IBM.
It's something like that, anyway.
Don't forget that the PPC970 supports many multiples. So one could possibly run a 2.0 GHz PPC970 with, what, a 500 MHz FSB? I forget the exact multiples but a motherboard manufacturer might be able to take some "shortcuts" if the high FSB is an issue.
(FSB meaning the p2p CPU connections to the northbridge, not to include the memory bus or PCI bus, etc.)
-
From listening to the AmiWest mp3's I have heard that the 970 is actually less expensive in quantity than the motorola chips---already. That alone might signal a reason to have such a beast available. It might be cheaper.
-
BlackMonk wrote:
I think it is API, Apple Processor Interconnect. Designed by Apple and made/implemented by IBM.
It's something like that, anyway.
Don't forget that the PPC970 supports many multiples. So one could possibly run a 2.0 GHz PPC970 with, what, a 500 MHz FSB? I forget the exact multiples but a motherboard manufacturer might be able to take some "shortcuts" if the high FSB is an issue.
(FSB meaning the p2p CPU connections to the northbridge, not to include the memory bus or PCI bus, etc.)
Sounds right; I think they were abbreviating it ApplePI, now that you remind me. I forgot about that little announcement, and for some stupid reason I've been assuming this was a serialized design (a-la HyperTransport)... The Ars article says different, though: it's DDR, and "Since the bus composed of two unidirectional channels, each 32 bits wide," ... so maybe it's within the realm of feasibility, if someone (IBM?) coughs up an MPX bridge cheap.
The thing is, though, everyone knows Motorola's lost the desktop race for now, and appear almost happy to be out of it, what with potentially putting the processor unit up for sale. IBM's going to have to balance the desire to support their own legacy customers ("Hey guys, have we got an upgrade for you!") -- including Mai, Marvell, Eyetech, Genesi, and all the other little and not-so-little guys that form the broader market for PPC -- with the desire to push forward with the competetive chip, avoid paying more 'cooperation fees' to the Motorolan black-hole for MPX -- (wonder how much AltiVec cost them?), and move forward the architecture that actually *is* competetive, shipping low-clock, low-bus-speed versions to cover the fat end of the embedded market, which could always use more power anyway. I'm going to bet the "Appleness" of the interconnect is only an encumbrance for northbridge manufacturers, so that aspect should be encapsulated away in epoxy or ceramic by the time Mai or Marvell ship a supporting product. (One has to doubt whether Apple really *likes* designing all their own bridges, anyway; I'd wager they'd rather be designing added value to hang off them, a-la Firewire and the like. Of course, that'd force them to *think,* and Jobs is at the helm, so you never know.)
IBM seems to think the 750GX is good enough for now, and they have the resources to run off an entire new *CPU* with a different interconnect if they want.
But... why is it unlikely to see them bother? Let's face it; board manufacture itself is cheap. The Inquirer (http://theinquirer.net/?article=10567) says it, and whether or not you want to trust them, you can't deny the surprisingly healthy state of the x86 board market, even with new chipsets (and thus new designs) every few weeks, the global economy somewhat in the toilet, the whole SARS thing, and little compelling in the CPU area until the Opteron launched. What's expensive are the initial investments - setting up the businesses around the boards, ensuring the equipment is up to date (able to operate with enough precision for ever-shrinking components) - R&D costs - and, in the case of outsourcing small runs, paying for all the setup times (and *their* equipment costs) when the company could be running off commodity DIMMs, thermostats, or something else that doesn't change much. All the big names from Taiwan have already gone through this, probably getting a boost from the .com boom; our favorites in the game have missed that chance, but as long as they live to get over the hump, and pay down past mistakes (each company's had one, after all) there're clear skies, bigger volumes, lower prices, and a 'sustainable' market to look forward to.
Having to redesign for 970 will cause some grumbling, especially as everyone's taken a hit for one reason or another, but meanwhile, the GX doesn't look like a bad little chip, and it's the northbridge companies' jobs to produce implementable solutions, and the board companies' jobs to design boards. Unless Mai or Marvell screw up, I'd think we could avoid the underclocked buses (hmm, wonder if Apple can impose price-hikes for bus licenses based on MHz?), and stick to playing in the same leagues as the big boys.
-
I have bad feelings about adapting a G4 board for use with the new PPC970, it is not a bus question but a more complex question: there is a range of things to fix in order to achieve the expected performance level from these CPUs and Apple know this well.
According to one of their Tech-notes
(http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2087.html)
the list of DOs and DONTs is quite long and involves even such common things like type conversion, cache access, ...
Oh, I was forgotting the best: the 970 lacks some cache control instructions the G4 implements, so the cache section of the AmigaOS 4 would have to be rewritten anyway!
Bye,
Claudio
-
I doubt the OS can be "delayed" any longer by any action MAI logic can take. In fact MAI seams to like Hyperion, the conversations I had with Ben Hermans at AmiWest where very positive regarding MAI. I'm sure when the OS is done the work to support a 970 board should just be a matter of drivers. Given that similar drivers need to be created for the current shipping AmigaOne mobo's the work should proceed rapidly.
All that said I'm upbeat about Hyperions chances on releasing OS 4 for CSPPC this year and possibly a few months before Chrismas! I also think that OS 4 for AmigaOne will be available 2 to 3 months after OS 4 CSPPC. I'm guessing that when the smoke clears both MorphOS and OS 4 will be running on shipping 970 based product around the same time. Assuming both efforts still exist :)
Bill "tekmage" Borsari
OS 4 is coming... prepare your self!
-
strobe broke the NEWS:
PS: You still don't have an OS:lol:
Thank you -- that was much-needed information.
(Actually, little-good would it do me as I'm still awaiting my XE system)
-
I think it is API, Apple Processor Interconnect. Designed by Apple and made/implemented by IBM.
It's something like that, anyway.
The 970 bus is not an Apple thing, IBM were showing off this technology a few years ago.
Apple have a tendancy to rename things whether they belong to them or not.
Also, Altivec is not a Motorola thing - it was a joint project but designed by Apple. Only the name belongs to Motorola. Apple called it "Velocity Engine"
The GX sounds interesting but if anything they should put the new bus onto it and get the benefit of the new NorthBridges.
On the other hand I think IBM should do an AMD and put the memory controller on die and add Hypertransport for the 980. That way we could use Opteron chip sets and save ourselves a *lot* of hassle and get PCI express in a reasonable time frame.
-
Hi Dudes!
*ANY* AMiGA machine with a G5 processor series would rule!
Have Fun Infected Incubes!
-El Puto DeQ
-
@fatman
Yes ... that would be 8-) .
:idea: ... maybe it will be used in the "consumer" version :-D .
---------------
redfox