Amiga.org
Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / Science and Technology => Topic started by: persia on February 18, 2008, 02:47:28 PM
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Toshiba loses face but saves money in DVD defeat
Reuters Monday February 18 2008
By Mayumi Negishi
TOKYO, Feb 18 (Reuters) - Japan's Toshiba Corp will have to swallow its pride, exiting from its DVD war with Sony, but analysts say it's a smart move to cut its losses now rather than later.
By pulling the plug, Toshiba will be able to save some $450 million in the year to March 2009 that would have otherwise be spent on sales promotion and restructuring costs of its HD DVD business.
"The potential losses are small compared to the savings," said Goldman Sachs analyst Ikuo Matsuhashi. "Nobody wants this format war to drag on."
Matsuhashi reckons Toshiba could chalk up a 10 billion yen ($93 million) loss to unload excess inventory and scrap assembly lines.
Toshiba shares jumped 5.7 percent on Monday after a company source told Reuters on Sunday Toshiba would concede defeat to the rival Blu-ray format, led by Sony and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co
The movie industry blames the format war, which triggered memories of obsolete Betamax players that lost out to the VHS videotape format, for confusing shoppers and slowing sales of high-definition DVDs.
SWIFT EXIT
The move could also mark an end to Toshiba's dreams to become a consumer electronics star, said an official at Toshiba.
Toshiba has said it wants to make home electronics a generator of growth along with microchips and nuclear power.
"Sony is hip, Panasonic tries, but Toshiba stays geeky," said the company official, who spoke on condition that his name was not used. "We learned that we need to work on marketing, but will we get more chances to do that? I don't know."
Toshiba's exit could be swift, given the small volume of production for its HD DVD players and recorders, said JP Morgan analyst Yoshiharu Izumi.
Toshiba has agreements with studios including NBC Universal's Universal Pictures, Viacom Inc's Paramount Pictures and DreamWorks Animation SKG Inc to support HD-DVD.
But a defection last month by Time Warner Inc's Warner Bros studio to Blu-ray tipped the balance and prompted U.S. retailers to follow, such as Wal-Mart Stores Inc, Best Buy Co Inc and online video rental company Netflix Inc
Blu-ray supporters include News Corp's 20th Century Fox, Walt Disney Co and Lions Gate Entertainment Corp Sony's PlayStation 3 game console also plays Blu-ray films.
A DROP IN THE OCEAN
Toshiba, which began sales of HD DVD players in March 2006, has sold 1 million units of its HD DVD players and recorders worldwide, including sales of drives for Microsoft Corp's XBox 360 game console.
That is a drop in the ocean for the world's No.2 maker of NAND flash memory, which also makes nuclear power turbines, elevators and washing machines -- but those are all products without consumer star power.
Toshiba doesn't need powerful brands to sell flash memory, which earns half its profits, or in nuclear power, said Atul Goyal, senior research analyst at CLSA.
"If Toshiba decides to exit (HD DVDs), it will be a sound decision," he said. "Very few companies are able to generate any profit from this kind of business on a sustainable basis."
Toshiba's digital products segment, which includes its Regza TVs, Dynabook notebooks and Gigabeat digital audio player, comprised 40 percent of the electronics group's sales last business year, but earned only 6 percent of profits.
That may all be true, but it would still be a wrench to see those businesses marginalised, said the Toshiba official.
"It's the closing of a door." ($1=107.85 Yen)
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I bet Sony covered some of the losses of Toshiba to have them pull out ... They recently had another deal where toshiba bought the rights to manufacture the CELL. or something like that ...
btw, what does this have to do with the amiga ?
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@countzero
Amiga can use CD/HD/DVD... so these news will affect us
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you know, I can't even imagine connecting a blueray to my amiga, let alone find 50 gb of data to fill it with :)
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countzero wrote:
you know, I can't even imagine connecting a blueray to my amiga, let alone find 50 gb of data to fill it with :)
But we can dream, can't we? ;-)
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countzero wrote:
you know, I can't even imagine connecting a blueray to my amiga, let alone find 50 gb of data to fill it with :)
I can, on both counts.
Hans
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Moving this to the Coffee House Sci-tech forum guys.
Great news, just not Amiga-related.
Wayne
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I kinda expected this. And if one format had to win, then from a technical point of view I'm glad it's Blue Ray... Despite how much I may dislike Sony.
Though I expect this to be the last of the Optical disk format... It might get a capacity upgrade, but SSD's (or some other storeage medium) should take over in the next few years.
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countzero wrote:
you know, I can't even imagine connecting a blueray to my amiga, let alone find 50 gb of data to fill it with :)
I know how :sealed:
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I am glad that at last M$ lost at *something*. If you read about it, the whole issue started with M$ not wanting to use Java but insisting on their own proprietary crap, that's how the Blu/HD formats split.
It's a bit too late to change anything, but for once a superior format has triumphed...
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alenppc wrote:
I am glad that at last M$ lost at *something*. If you read about it, the whole issue started with M$ not wanting to use Java but insisting on their own proprietary crap, that's how the Blu/HD formats split.
While I totally agree about how good it is that M$ have got shafted... I actually prefer their interactive content system over the Java one... If you look at the HDi System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDi_Interactive_Format) it's based on ECMA script and XML... which I think is superior to the Java based VM system that the BlueRay guys went with...
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bloodline wrote:
alenppc wrote:
I am glad that at last M$ lost at *something*. If you read about it, the whole issue started with M$ not wanting to use Java but insisting on their own proprietary crap, that's how the Blu/HD formats split.
While I totally agree about how good it is that M$ have got shafted... I actually prefer their interactive content system over the Java one... If you look at the HDi System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDi_Interactive_Format) it's based on ECMA script and XML... which I think is superior to the Java based VM system that the BlueRay guys went with...
Superior in what way? It's easier to create content with HD-DVD's scripting system, but Java is more powerful. Disney, in particular, loved this, as including extras such as games really fits in well with the kind of movies they make.
Hans
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Is Java more powerful? What advantage does it offer over ECMA Script?
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Ehm, Java has a complete 'Virtual Machine'? And, java is partially compiled (or completely, if one uses a java chip which often can be found in cell phones)
I mean, it's a complete fourth generation programming language, while such a scripting language can barely called a third generation language (if it can be called a programming language at all).
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Ehm, Java has a complete 'Virtual Machine'? And, java is partially compiled (or completely, if one uses a java chip which often can be found in cell phones)
ECMA Script is provided with well documented and powerful API's (libraries and toolkits ), it's more widely used and runs on more platforms... JIT compilers also exist for it...
I mean, it's a complete fourth generation programming language, while such a scripting language can barely called a third generation language (if it can be called a programming language at all).
Might be an idea to google ECMAScript (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECMAScript) before commenting....
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I've worked with it more than once, Bloodline, I know what I'm talking about. ECMA is utter sh*te.
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
I've worked with it more than once, Bloodline, I know what I'm talking about. ECMA is utter sh*te.
Not saying it isn't, but I think it's a better fit than Java for this application, and you've not told me yet why I'm wrong...
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bloodline wrote:
it's more widely used and runs on more platforms...
Er, no. Java in it's various forms is much more widespread.
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uncharted wrote:
bloodline wrote:
it's more widely used and runs on more platforms...
Er, no. Java in it's various forms is much more widespread.
I'm not convinced that Java is more widely spread than ECMAScript, which is currently available on almost every single web browser currently surfing the internet...
Anyway that is neither here nor there... we are talking about an interactive content authoring system for use on the next generation of Digital Media... I personally think the XML/ECMAScript is a much better fit for this task, and no one here has told me why Java would be better...
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If I ever fit a 20+ GB hard drive in my Amiga I will need a Blu-ray writer to back it up.
The alternative is to use about 24,000 Floppy disks. :-)
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bloodline wrote:
I'm not convinced that Java is more widely spread than ECMAScript, which is currently available on almost every single web browser currently surfing the internet...
Every modern mobile phone has at least one JavaVM. SIM cards use JavaCard. And of course most modern phones have J2ME on them as well.
There are a large number of mobile and embedded Java devices that you probably aren't aware of. As you implied, ECMAScript is largely limited to web browsers.
Anyway that is neither here nor there...
Just correcting your erroneous statement, I don't give a {bleep} about HD or geek battles over which language is best.
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A6000 wrote:
If I ever fit a 20+ GB hard drive in my Amiga I will need a Blu-ray writer to back it up.
The alternative is to use about 24,000 Floppy disks. :-)
I already have an 80 GB drive in my Amiga (A1-XE), so I'm already there. I'll be waiting until Bluray rewriters drop under $100 first though.
Hans
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Hans_ wrote:
A6000 wrote:
If I ever fit a 20+ GB hard drive in my Amiga I will need a Blu-ray writer to back it up.
The alternative is to use about 24,000 Floppy disks. :-)
I already have an 80 GB drive in my Amiga (A1-XE), so I'm already there. I'll be waiting until Bluray rewriters drop under $100 first though.
Hans
...Talking of which, does anyone remember those things that allowed you to use a VHS recorder as a hard disk backup spooler ?
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Yep, I remember reading about those VHS backup solutions. It seemed like a very nifty and cost effective backup method at the time.
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@uncharted
Just correcting your erroneous statement, I don't give a {bleep} about HD or geek battles over which language is best.
I think you did yourself in with that one. ;-) There's no direct correlation between the language and the services provided by the underlying system. Java without its standard libraries and a complete JVM, e.g. a piss poor subset of J2ME, is no more useful than ECMAScript without a host environment. For what it's worth, I use ECMAScript as my primary scripting language in Windows, and coupled with custom type libraries, it can do just about anything any other COM-aware language can do. I guess it's all about how you use it. (Think of the Visual Basic hacking days of yore--a time that redefined rapid development and permanently changed the face of in-house software development.) Some day, Sun will revoke its runtime license grants and force all Java developers and users to pay exorbitant license fees.
@all
I'm rather sad that Blu-Ray "won." From a consumer standpoint, HD-DVD was the superior choice: 1) players are backward compatible with DVD (not compulsory for Blu-Ray players), 2) the standard was finished (Blu-Ray is coming up on Profile 2.0, and nothing currently on the market other than the PS3 is forward compatible--in other words, eff you Early Adopters), and 3) HD-DVD lacked region coding. Add to that the Blu-Ray "feature" that allows a vendor to disable your player on the fly if it thinks it's been tampered with, Sony's typical proprietary license structure, and the lack of direct retail competition (apart from legacy DVD), and Blu-Ray is going to have consumers bending over and taking it for years to come.
I'll give Blu-Ray kudos for its capacity lead over HD-DVD, but I buy movies to watch movies. I'd rather cut down on the extras than put up with media providers trying to control what I do and when I do it.
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Trev wrote:
3) HD-DVD lacked region coding. Add to that the Blu-Ray "feature" that allows a vendor to disable your player on the fly if it thinks it's been tampered with, Sony's typical proprietary license structure, and the lack of direct retail competition (apart from legacy DVD), and Blu-Ray is going to have consumers bending over and taking it for years to come.
Actually, both formats have region coding, and both formats are designed to allow studios to disable your player if they think that it's been tampered with (it's called key revoking). I'm pretty sure that this is something that the studios insisted on having in return for their support.
Hans
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Blu-Ray not backwards compatible? Or is backwards compatibility possible but not defined as standard?
-edit- AFAIK the Playstation 3 is compatible with the Playstation 2, so the Blu-Ray medium can take DVD's, and as such, the latter must be true.
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@Hans_
I don't think region coding was ever added to the HD-DVD specification. I believe there were talks to add it, but at this point, I guess it doesn't matter.
Re: key revoking. Isn't this implemented using key recovation lists on HD-DVD media? I don't have the technical details, but I don't think it's possible for a new HD-DVD title to prevent a player from playing an older HD-DVD title; however, I do believe it is possible for a new Blu-Ray title to completely disable a Blu-Ray player. Trying to sort out the technical details....
@Speelgoedmannetje
For a Blu-Ray player to be backwards compatible, the optical bits would have to support reading CD and DVD media. Such compatibility is not mandatory for Blu-Ray players.
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@Trev
You're right about the region coding, which they were, at one stage going to have.
AFAIK, player key revocation exists for HD-DVD. They're using the same content protection system as Blu-Ray.
Hans