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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: ChuckT on February 09, 2008, 02:44:14 PM

Title: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: ChuckT on February 09, 2008, 02:44:14 PM
What would you like to see in a new Amiga?

It is up to the new Amiga to put out a new computer that reads old Amiga drives, is bundled with at least C, Assembler and come with an updated language of Basic which would bring it into the next decade.  I think the computer's architecture has to be easy for the hobbyist to use which would include Movable Object Blocks / Sprites, and come with an autosensing wireless router built in.  I think it should support USB 3.0 or Firewire and come with a mini programmer's reference guide that the C-64 came with.  I think they should have expansion that could be wired for controlling robotics or at least there should be directions for wiring the USB for robotics.

I suggest that we send a petition to the new Amiga after we agree on what it should have.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Jeff on February 09, 2008, 02:53:54 PM
Availability:-D!

-Jeff
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Oli_hd on February 09, 2008, 02:53:59 PM
Quote
What would you like to see in a new Amiga?

Zorro slots and the OS in a fast onboard rom of some sort :-)
.......edit.......
oh and something that runs at 25Mhz yet runs programs faster than any PC on the market, that would really piss the Windows fan boys off.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: AMC258 on February 09, 2008, 03:11:35 PM
All it needs is Zorro III, a video slot, a G4, more RAM, SCSI, and a OS4 ROM.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: AndyFC on February 09, 2008, 03:12:06 PM
Current, industry standard connectivity i.e.
PCI
PCI Express (has version 2 just come out?)
USB
Firewire
SATA
IDE

and driver support (whether third party or OEM) for as much as the stuff as you can plug in to them as possible.

Also, support for Amiga as an open platform i.e. anyone can manufacture something which runs Amiga OS.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: ddniUK on February 09, 2008, 03:19:25 PM
A big sticker proclaiming that no proceeds from this device went to Bill McScrewem  :lol:
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: dammy on February 09, 2008, 04:02:30 PM
Probably a good time to except reality that there won't be another "Amiga" as we know it.  Instead of wishing for something that will never be, it's time to work for something that we all should feel comfortable with on existing hardware.  Apple excepted this years ago, and they have sales.  Why Amiga folks can't, is beyond me.

Dammy
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: AmiSake on February 09, 2008, 04:10:38 PM
Quote

dammy wrote:
Probably a good time to except reality that there won't be another "Amiga" as we know it.  Instead of wishing for something that will never be, it's time to work for something that we all should feel comfortable with on existing hardware.  Apple excepted this years ago, and they have sales.  Why Amiga folks can't, is beyond me.

Dammy


Indeed. An affordable "new Amiga" will have to be built
with readily available and cheap hardware.
I think what made the Amiga the Amiga, was the combination of
the OS and the then great hardware.
Just because the current hardware makers manage to screw up the design of the PC motherboards, doesn't mean someone cannot use the current hardware to build a good motherboard to run OS4 or any other OS that gives you the look and feel of the AmigaOS (and no I do not mean emulation, that's not the same thing in my humble opinion)
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: dammy on February 09, 2008, 04:26:25 PM
Quote
I think what made the Amiga the Amiga, was the combination of
the OS and the then great hardware.


Correct, Amiga was indeed great hardware, could have been even better hardware if C= management didn't screw everything up.  Had the tech been available, IIRC, the entire chipset would have been on a single chip.  Tech wasn't, and they had to do multiple chips to take the load off the 7MHz 68000 to make the machine as fast as possible with the capabilities they wanted.

Fast forward 20+ years and we have cheap hardware that can do what is needed for any desktop OS that hasn't been M$'d to death.  Even better, each couple of years and we get another major jump in tech after the big boys spend billions of dollars of R&D plus T&E.

Old motto comes to mind when talking about hardware, "Work smarter, not harder."

Dammy
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: TDScompute on February 12, 2008, 04:30:52 PM
Amiga should really be an OS that runs on industry standard hardware.

Ship with drivers for common video cards, audio, etc... and allow for new drivers to be written for new hardware very easily.

We have all the hardware performance we could ask for in a couple hundred dollar PC, and I think a fair number of people would spend $50 or so on a second OS for their PC.

Amiga OS 4.1 should run on the Intel/AMD platform!
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Ral-Clan on February 12, 2008, 04:35:16 PM
Quote

ChuckT wrote:

It is up to the new Amiga to put out a new computer...I suggest that we send a petition to the new Amiga after we agree on what it should have.


I admire your sentiments, but seriously, you are either really naive or you are posting from the year 1997 when Petro was still heading up Amiga, Inc.

Amiga, Inc. of 2008 will NEVER do anything for us again.  It's up to the community produce new hardware.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: HopperJF on February 12, 2008, 04:35:36 PM
Quote

dammy wrote:
Probably a good time to except reality that there won't be another "Amiga" as we know it.  Instead of wishing for something that will never be, it's time to work for something that we all should feel comfortable with on existing hardware.  Apple excepted this years ago, and they have sales.  Why Amiga folks can't, is beyond me.

Dammy


Yes but Apple still release machines, iMac, Mac Pro, etc.
Amiga don't so this thread is to find out if Amiga release "their" answer to the Macs and PC's of this world, what would be inside.

Good thread :-)
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: HopperJF on February 12, 2008, 04:42:34 PM
I'd like to see the next operating system run on x86 and PC's but also for their to be new Amiga machines.
These will be tuned to the OS like Apple and so will usually perform better and have their own distinctive look. UNLIKE Apple though they will be much more expandable and keep the Amiga-feel and not be "closed".

The Amiga 1400 will come in a titanium keyboard wedge case with integrated graphics and sound for the low-end user, an internal 2.5" SATA 64Gb flash disk, 512Mb RAM and AmigaOS 4.1. It will use its own BIOS with a Celeron M processor clocked at 1GHz.
4x USB ports with an optional monitor or official Amiga external USB floppy disk drive capable of reading and writing to traditional Amiga floppy disks. CD RW standard on all models, DVD RW optional extra. Cheap as chips £350 with a software bundle.


The Amiga 5000 takes off where the 4000 left off although now the "big box" Amigas come in tower cases. It will include a whopping 2Gb RAM as standard, the new AmigaOS, 8x USB ports, DVD RW, dual Amiga-compatible floppy drives, 500Gb hard disk and PCI-Express graphics and sound (upgradable) and upgradable CPU chip based on the latest Intel range. Starting from £800 you get a lot of power for your money and of course the tradional Amiga-like smoothness and feel to the operating system.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Akira on February 12, 2008, 04:44:37 PM
I would like it to be in its classic, "console with a keyboard" form, not inside a PC-like tower/desktop fashion!
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: HopperJF on February 12, 2008, 05:10:01 PM
I feel the same but have carried on with the x000-style for power users, thus put my proposed Amiga 5000 into a tower case.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: DoogUK on February 12, 2008, 06:10:59 PM
I imagine a new spec a1200.in the same wedge shape case...being able to read the old floppies and be backward compatible with 68k software.

I'd sell off the Mrs to buy it. :lol:
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: alexh on February 12, 2008, 06:17:27 PM
If we are talking new "classic" Amiga. Then a 100+MHz 68060, a couple of big FPGA's to implement the chipset, peripheral phy's (10/100 Ethernet MAC, USB2.0 Host, Audio Codec, SATA Phy's etc.)

If we are talking a new platform for AmigaOS, then it has to be a standard off the shelf Intel x86-64 motherboard as found in PC's.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: leirbag28 on February 12, 2008, 06:22:20 PM


A REAL Amiga with Custom Chips like the PS3 including a common gfx chip, and expansion port that will be exactly the same on all future released Amiga models.  COMPONENT, HDMI, S-VIDEO, RGB, VGA and COMPOSITE OUT.............All at the same Time  like the regular Amigas. Possibility to upgrade to 100gig of Memory, a SATA and IDE and SCSI ports all on the Motherboard Buffered. Built In Genlock with Manual controls embedded next to the Arrow keys. Built in ChromaKey, Built in MIDI (NOT US freakin B) 4 dedicated Joystick ports (non USB)with wireless Joysticks/Pads. a Removable MP3 player built in.  Dedicated Chips soley for Playing DVD, BlueRay, MP3, MP4, MOV, AVI, FLASH, CD+G, DIVX.

Wireless built in or at least a PCMCIA port for adding it. BlueTooth, FIREWIRE.

THis is minimum if it ever even plans to compete.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: kvasir on February 12, 2008, 06:59:43 PM
After reading the thread, I've realized (again) on of the biggest assets the original classic miggy's had was its versatility. Granted, the rest of the world has more or less caught up (granted, with the resource efficiency that could be compared to how many miles/gallon a DC-10 gets compared to a moped), and like the idea of a traditional wedge shape. (I'm typing this on my 1200 :-D ) The one thing I really miss in "modern" computers is native NTSC support (or PAL, depending on where you live), and had originally set up my 1200 with a VCR to tape youtube vids, though never was able to play them. (Been playing with ffmpeg, still have a bit to learn with it) Had to change that after getting a new 1200 with a scandoubler, so the old one will be the video machine when I get it up and running. (Plus the wifes Superfrog game machine...) Anyway, I get too distracted.. What it'd like is pretty much the aforementioned stuff, like a tower Amiga on x86 hardware, along with the console wedge design (as Amiga users are pretty varied in their computing tasted, which is why the OS itself needs to be as customizable as it is.) If there's custom hardware that is needed, (OS4.0/4.1 ROMS, NTSC modulator, etc...) It could be possible to incorporate it on a PCI compatable "geek card" for x86 tower systems, and just integrated into the wedge systems motherboard. Also, compatability with whats out there is a big problem, but that's mostly a software issue. If OS4 has a WINE port, it would fix some of that.(Or maybe it already does, I'm stuck using a 060, so I live with OS3.9, and don't keep up on the OS4.0 stuff much) JAVA would be helful, too. And Firefox. The Datatypes at least would need to include popular PC file formats. (I don't know the range of OS4 datatypes, either) Anyway, I'm onto rambling now, so I'll just hit send before my 2 cents turns into 20 bucks..  :-D
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Fester on February 12, 2008, 07:01:07 PM
Not interested in a new Amiga anymore.

I would have probably wanted to see a new Amiga OS run on the same hardware as my Windows XP, but WinUAE already does a good job for classic.

In the end, I would have enjoyed trying OS 4 but hardware was not available when I was ready to purchase and I'm not going to dish out money to run OS 4 on classic hardware.

Fester
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Terse on February 12, 2008, 07:37:00 PM
Quote

dammy wrote:
Probably a good time to except reality that there won't be another "Amiga" as we know it.

Dammy


All people ever do here is except reality.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Krusher on February 12, 2008, 07:41:11 PM
Quote

Terse wrote:
Quote

dammy wrote:
Probably a good time to except reality that there won't be another "Amiga" as we know it.

Dammy


All people ever do here is except reality.


I live in my own reality  :-D
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: smerf on February 12, 2008, 07:42:06 PM
Hi,

@TDScompute,

WOW, another reasonable person at Amiga.Org, What is this
world comming too!!!

I agree with you totally, the new Amiga should just be an
OS that will run on a standard modern PC, not like with
Amiga Forever or WinUAE, but a real operating system that
boots up soon as you turn the power on. One OS that not
only could run Amiga specific software but one that could
run regular PC software to but with the ease of use like
the Amiga OS has. Just maybe even Bill McScrewup could
possibly accomplish this OS system. Lets face it PPC is
really dead, the only thing left is Intel and AMD and I
agree that one of these two processors would be great, Nvidia
leads the way in graphics cards which not even Amiga AGA
or AAA chipset could touch. I think the new QuadCore chips
would really benefit the Amiga's multi-tasking mode. As far
as Zorro slots, well lets just ship Zorro back to Mexico, he
seems to be really needed there. (Come on all my Mexican
friends it is just a joke). Anyhow agree with you totally,
its the only way a new Amiga will make the commerce scene.

smerf
 
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Tension on February 12, 2008, 07:50:34 PM
this is a pointless thread.

there will never be a new Amiga.

ive been waiting since 1994 for something... anything... but in the last few months although it pains me to actually say it...  its too late... it`s over.

IT`S 2008 FOR CHRIST`S SAKE AND WE`VE HAD NOTHING FOR 14 YEARS!!
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Damion on February 12, 2008, 07:59:09 PM
There definitely won't be anything new from the jokers at A-Inc (aside from more comedy), but I am interested in projects that stand a high chance of actually materializing. Developments on the minimig/clone-a type ideas will be interesting... Implementations of "classic" Amiga hardware with some modern features should be pretty fun.



 

Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Tahoe on February 13, 2008, 07:25:07 AM
A soul. And that's something they'll never get again.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: coldfish on February 13, 2008, 10:13:47 AM
@Tahoe,

Amen brother.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Nlandas on February 13, 2008, 12:09:09 PM
Quote

TDScompute wrote:
Amiga should really be an OS that runs on industry standard hardware.

Ship with drivers for common video cards, audio, etc... and allow for new drivers to be written for new hardware very easily.
....
Amiga OS 4.1 should run on the Intel/AMD platform!


I agree 100%, the idea that what makes Amiga, amiga anymore is that it has to run on Motorola or RISC chip isn't grounded in todays reality. CISC vs. RISC isn't even really relevant anymore with the advancements of modern CPU design. I'd be happy if they went with AMD as the default supplier but there's no reason that it couldn't run on Intel too. That's just because I don't like the way Intel plays in the sandbox. If we keep choosing esoteric chips that aren't going to be readily available in the future or have their designs advanced that does us no good.

How about this -
Runs Amiga OS 4.X
PCI Express
SATA(IDE is obsolete and even optical drives are SATA now.)
USB 2.0/3.0 (Time frame?)
DDR2
ATX Form-factor(Standard now as BTC didn't catch on.)
Built on WUXGA and UXGA video.

Here's my minor twist - An emulation layer for OCS/ECS/AGA - either software or hardware depending on which offers best price performance ratio and compatibility. UAE already exists why not use it on the back end for running old software.

Then again hardware may be best, If you made this backwards compatibility depended on a PCI Express card and the OS run on standard x64 hardware then you could bundle the card with the OS. This would act as a great form of copy protection. If anyone wanted backwards compatibility they'd have to buy the card to put into their PC before they installed the OS.

Initial Accessories

Legacy user support)
USB HD Amiga compatible floppy drive(Read all old Amiga floppies)
USB Zorro III/video card cage case. (All the use of Video Toaster and other Zorro cards)


I'm just dreaming here though. Most of the new designs are RISC based and we already know the SAM440 and what Amiga, Inc. says they'll be releasing as new hardware.

I'd be happy to just have a stable platform to run AmigaOS 4.0 for less than $1000USD that isn't running on over 10 year old hardware.

-Nyle
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: McVenco on February 13, 2008, 12:26:59 PM
Quote
Tahoe wrote:
A soul. And that's something they'll never get again.


Sad but true. Very true.

The Amiga as a separate/independent hardware platform will never exist anymore. The only possible "new Amiga" will be an Amiga-like OS running on some standard hardware. And the "soul" in this system has to come from the community that uses it. Which, I'm sorry to say, hasn't got much soul left either apart from some people determined to at least do something for an Amiga-ish system (MorphOS, AROS).

IMHO, the classic Amiga users should be more like the Commodore 64 userscene: not having the impression that you system can compare to any modern system, but just try to get the max out of it's ancient hardware..
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: AndrewBell on February 13, 2008, 12:38:01 PM
Quote
after we agree on what it should have.


That doesn't seems likely to happen. Some want legacy compatibility, some want a clean break with the past.

Personally, I'd like a new machine to have the low price/high power of current AMD/Intel processors, with drivers for nVidia/ATI GPUs, fast wireless ethernet, and SATAII.

For the OS, keep it a single user system, and include a native version of VideoLAN Client, Opera, YAM, ACDSee, Nero and a cellphone application.
________
VAAAPP VAPORIZER (http://essentialvaaappvaporizer.com)
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Agafaster on February 13, 2008, 12:50:52 PM
Quote

Jeff wrote:
Availability:-D!

-Jeff


seconded:

The thing I'd most like to see in a new Amiga is:



 a new Amiga !
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: downix on February 13, 2008, 02:08:02 PM
Quote

McVenco wrote:
Quote
Tahoe wrote:
A soul. And that's something they'll never get again.


Sad but true. Very true.

The Amiga as a separate/independent hardware platform will never exist anymore. The only possible "new Amiga" will be an Amiga-like OS running on some standard hardware. And the "soul" in this system has to come from the community that uses it. Which, I'm sorry to say, hasn't got much soul left either apart from some people determined to at least do something for an Amiga-ish system (MorphOS, AROS).

You haven't studied what is available lately, have you?  While yes, there is a start-up cost, you can do semi-custom and even custom work for a fraction of the cost that was done back even a decade ago.  FPGA's, CPLD's,Structured ASIC's, all bring the cost of a custom machine down to at least the affordable range.

Look at Apple, while yes it might use commodity components, it uses custom PCB's and designwork, giving their equipment different properties than the usual PC design.  That is one approach that works for them.  Other options abound, you just have to quit being so defeated and actually look around.

Look at my buddy icon for a second.  Do you realize that Sun bucks the trend, with "the rule" that x86 is the only processor in the world for desktop, workstation or server work?  Also "the rule" that a CPU has to be from a single vendor, as their CPU's can be found made by both Fuji and TI, with no difference to the application code used.  They succeed where others fail, maybe you should look at things a bit more positively.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: persia on February 13, 2008, 02:14:19 PM
A simply box, everything nowadays is usb, so may 8 to 10 USB ports, a couple firewire ports, dvi video, sata hard drive, PCI video.  Gigabit ethernet.  Built in blue tooth. Built in wireless.  Come with a Quad Core Xenon with sockets for up to three more.

That's really all you need in this day and age.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: persia on February 13, 2008, 02:26:26 PM
A simply box, everything nowadays is usb, so may 8 to 10 USB ports, a couple firewire ports, dvi video, sata hard drive, PCI video.  Gigabit ethernet.  Built in blue tooth. Built in wireless.  Come with a Quad Core Xenon with sockets for up to three more.

That's really all you need in this day and age.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Agafaster on February 13, 2008, 02:27:06 PM
Quote
after we agree on what it should have.


 :lol:

If you get 3 amiga fans in a room, you'll get 5 different opinions.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Painkiller on February 13, 2008, 02:42:08 PM
CELL

and availability ;) Oh wait PS3! port AmigaOS over there, maybe the MorphOS team will drop us a bone :)
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: McVenco on February 13, 2008, 02:42:24 PM
Quote

downix wrote:

You haven't studied what is available lately, have you?  While yes, there is a start-up cost, you can do semi-custom and even custom work for a fraction of the cost that was done back even a decade ago.  FPGA's, CPLD's,Structured ASIC's, all bring the cost of a custom machine down to at least the affordable range.


I know very well what's available these days. It's indeed very comfortable not to have to design expensive chips since you can put pretty much anything in FPGA's or the likes. Still, you will have to make a custom mainboard then in some way so, although being cheaper, it's still going to be quite costly when you make very few of them for a small userbase (look at the SAM440 - it's a nice board but too expensive because it's not made in high numbers)

Quote
Look at Apple, while yes it might use commodity components, it uses custom PCB's and designwork, giving their equipment different properties than the usual PC design.  That is one approach that works for them.  Other options abound, you just have to quit being so defeated and actually look around.


Apple has been around for around 3 decades now. The Amiga has been pretty much dead for half of that time now. To design and build new hardware and software that can compete with modern day standards will need either a lot of time from a few people, or a hell of a lot of money. Probably both. That's why a "new Amiga" as in new hardware will never exist. Nobody wants to spend tens of thousands (millions?) of dollars/euros on designing something that is doomed to fail because only 351 people will buy that machine.

Quote
Look at my buddy icon for a second.  Do you realize that Sun bucks the trend, with "the rule" that x86 is the only processor in the world for desktop, workstation or server work?  Also "the rule" that a CPU has to be from a single vendor, as their CPU's can be found made by both Fuji and TI, with no difference to the application code used.  They succeed where others fail, maybe you should look at things a bit more positively.


Sun has been around a long time as well and has a long-time userbase. It's not that I don't believe in the possibility of a new Amiga system with non-standard hardware, I just believe (no, wait: I KNOW) that it isn't economically viable to design such a system.

Let the Amiga exist in the same way as, say, Haiku. An open source OS running on standard wintel-ish hardware (or a Mac or Sun for that matter). That way it's far more accessible for a large public, and still programmers can have their way to make use of the hardware in a very efficient and non-hogging way (unlike Vista for example).
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Ball000 on February 13, 2008, 03:01:20 PM
Wait... this thread is about AROS, isn't it?
:-p
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: swift240 on February 13, 2008, 03:32:40 PM
This is most obvious to every one,
DDR ram
PCI Express
SATA
OS4.0
Good sound, modern.
And a Video port that gives 15Khz for backward compatibility for those 500 games.
Doubler for 15Khz software auto switchable.
A switch ROM 500/1200
Serial port
Parallel port.
USB ports
Firewire.
SD card reader.
32 meg Chip Ram
Unlimited Fastram
Game port as well as USB.
Standard mouse port as in all PC`s
Hardware Firewall on chip
Ethernet.
memory protection
And a nice little program that when software is used and when the software is closed down the program auto clears memory in a full way/switchable to on off
Female voice "Hello (name) Amiga now starting all system are fine, enjoy my system."
And a boot up picture of an Amiga from the 500 to the modern hi-tech Amiga in light speed mode leaving microsoft way behind.
And then a message saying "Todays Amiga, using tomorrows technology."
A software program that will tell the user exactly what is being used and where.
Firefox ported.
Thunderbird ported.
OpenOffice ported.
Opera ported.
WIFI mouse/keyboard
Menu commands in female voice optional
PNG Icons.
Magic Menu.
Fully customizable menu system

Ohhhh yes and a bucket so the Microsoft fans can throw up in.


Mike.

Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: downix on February 13, 2008, 04:48:22 PM
Quote

McVenco wrote:
Quote

downix wrote:

You haven't studied what is available lately, have you?  While yes, there is a start-up cost, you can do semi-custom and even custom work for a fraction of the cost that was done back even a decade ago.  FPGA's, CPLD's,Structured ASIC's, all bring the cost of a custom machine down to at least the affordable range.


I know very well what's available these days. It's indeed very comfortable not to have to design expensive chips since you can put pretty much anything in FPGA's or the likes. Still, you will have to make a custom mainboard then in some way so, although being cheaper, it's still going to be quite costly when you make very few of them for a small userbase (look at the SAM440 - it's a nice board but too expensive because it's not made in high numbers)

Quote
Look at Apple, while yes it might use commodity components, it uses custom PCB's and designwork, giving their equipment different properties than the usual PC design.  That is one approach that works for them.  Other options abound, you just have to quit being so defeated and actually look around.


Apple has been around for around 3 decades now. The Amiga has been pretty much dead for half of that time now. To design and build new hardware and software that can compete with modern day standards will need either a lot of time from a few people, or a hell of a lot of money. Probably both. That's why a "new Amiga" as in new hardware will never exist. Nobody wants to spend tens of thousands (millions?) of dollars/euros on designing something that is doomed to fail because only 351 people will buy that machine.

Quote
Look at my buddy icon for a second.  Do you realize that Sun bucks the trend, with "the rule" that x86 is the only processor in the world for desktop, workstation or server work?  Also "the rule" that a CPU has to be from a single vendor, as their CPU's can be found made by both Fuji and TI, with no difference to the application code used.  They succeed where others fail, maybe you should look at things a bit more positively.


Sun has been around a long time as well and has a long-time userbase. It's not that I don't believe in the possibility of a new Amiga system with non-standard hardware, I just believe (no, wait: I KNOW) that it isn't economically viable to design such a system.

Let the Amiga exist in the same way as, say, Haiku. An open source OS running on standard wintel-ish hardware (or a Mac or Sun for that matter). That way it's far more accessible for a large public, and still programmers can have their way to make use of the hardware in a very efficient and non-hogging way (unlike Vista for example).

Well, let us look at this for a minute.  One of the proposals I put forth awhile back was to cut a deal with a PC motherboard vendor for a custom run of their boards, with the BIOS removed and a custom firmware, such as the Amithlon kernel, embedded in its place.  You'd suddenly have a new Amiga with minimal R&D and start up costs.  Only a minimum order # for them to preload the ROM for you (100 units, incidentally).  You might have a standard PC board, but you would eliminate 99% of the headaches of PC's, that is getting parts to work.  You do the same with the peripheral cards, video and such, and put them into a prebuilt system.  While yes, you can use non-approved cards using special drivers, the cards you provide have the firmware pre-installed and prepared, for only a nominal extra charge...
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: huronking on February 13, 2008, 05:10:25 PM
Blinking text.

And a 16M Chip Ram jumper.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: McVenco on February 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote

downix wrote:

One of the proposals I put forth awhile back was to cut a deal with a PC motherboard vendor for a custom run of their boards, with the BIOS removed and a custom firmware, such as the Amithlon kernel, embedded in its place.


Congratulations, so you have a 2008 spec computer running a 1994 operating system (or a derivate of it). Sure, it may be fast but you will still have the drawbacks of the ancient stuff. You need to do some serious programming to be able to use all of the modern hardware that can make use of that new system, and I'm not even starting on modern software.

I like the idea, but I have very serious doubts that it can be done - not without major work from lots of people, or it won't be done until 2022 (and then the competition will be 14 years ahead still....)
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: Ancalimon on February 13, 2008, 06:25:10 PM
I'd like it to support easy to find hardware. And I'd like it to have a perfect browser and some multimedia applications that meets todays standards. That's all. :)
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: amigadave on February 13, 2008, 06:36:01 PM
A combination of Amithlon and WinUAE to provide backward compatibility and speed on modern hardware.  What is needed more than anything else, is modern software that meets and exceeds the capabilities of other OSes and to accomplish that goal programmers must have all the tools necessary to create great software quickly and easily for the AmigaOS.  How can we bring all the Amiga programmers together on a common modern Amiga platform and how can we entice the former Amiga programmers to come back and work on new Amiga programs again?

Amiga has a great wealth of software in archives such as Aminet, but how much of that software is truly useful today?  Some Open Source software may be able to be ported to the AmigaOS, but what made the Amiga special during the "Glory Days" were the creative minds of Amiga programmers that were inspired to create software that had not been dreamed of before.  

The new Amiga must do all the things that Windows, Linux and Mac computers do and many new things that the others currently don't do, or can't do.  The new Amiga must solve human problems, or offer new services that have not been thought of yet.  To make any kind of impact in the minds of people that use other OSes, the new Amiga must have some kind of "WOW" factor.  Something that will make them sit up and take notice of what is being offered that is so much better and different that it will be seen as a breakthrough, just as the original Amiga was when it was introduced.  This time it will not be because the hardware is unique and better, it will be because the OS and the applications written for it are so revolutionary and superior.  The philosophy of doing more with less naturally makes for a more efficient design.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: downix on February 13, 2008, 06:53:12 PM
Quote

McVenco wrote:
Quote

downix wrote:

One of the proposals I put forth awhile back was to cut a deal with a PC motherboard vendor for a custom run of their boards, with the BIOS removed and a custom firmware, such as the Amithlon kernel, embedded in its place.


Congratulations, so you have a 2008 spec computer running a 1994 operating system (or a derivate of it). Sure, it may be fast but you will still have the drawbacks of the ancient stuff. You need to do some serious programming to be able to use all of the modern hardware that can make use of that new system, and I'm not even starting on modern software.

I like the idea, but I have very serious doubts that it can be done - not without major work from lots of people, or it won't be done until 2022 (and then the competition will be 14 years ahead still....)

You don't need to use "all" of the modern hardware, only a subset that will give you the functions needed.  So, we'd be limited to say ATI *or* nVidia cards, but not both, for example.

Focus on getting the core together, to give one spec or a limited SPEC that can be worked from.  Software wise you are quite right, our apps have vanished, save some hangers on like Aladdin and ImageFX.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: theformula on February 13, 2008, 07:48:55 PM
The style, feel and fun of an old amiga but update to modern standards.
Title: Re: What would you like to see in a new Amiga?
Post by: persia on February 13, 2008, 08:00:29 PM
And there is the dilemma, you have a 1994 OS running on 1994 hardware.  If you upgrade the hardware you break the OS, if you upgrade the OS you break compatibility.  

Apple made it through this dilemma because it was a living company, CBM, Amiga Inc and Escom are all long dead, had their been a living company directing the development of the Amiga you would have seen a slow development of a PPC Amiga OS with a compatibility solution for 68000 code, software updated to PPC standard, then a radical shift to say a new GUI on top of QNX or Linux, with a compatibility solution back to the old PPC software but not the 68000.  The developers would at each level be updating their code.

Now what you are faced with is that a quantum leap in hardware and software is required, there's nothing gradual about it at the cost of compatibility with all your existing software.  This without a company at the head, without developers and without financial backing and wit only a small fraction of what was a small user community left.  It's an impossible situation.

At todays prices the best bet would be to produce Amiga Classic replicas for the hobby folks.  That's pretty much the Amiga market these days.  But you would need to be careful, the market is small and you run the risk of flooding it.  Produce a limited edition collectors series.  Each machine would be engraved with a plate bearing sequence number, Say Amiga Classic 3000 Collectors Edition #1 of 100.  That *would* sell, though in a classic PPC board on top.  The market would bear several thousand dollars on that.  It's still a small market, maybe a 1000 machines with a thousand dollar profit on the machine is still only a million dollars.