Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: redrumloa on July 26, 2003, 07:16:21 PM
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Not really a report, I saw people setting up yesterday but the only people I tried saying hello to were pretty rude. Oh well. Anhow the show is open now, but I am just outside San Fransisco in a cyber cafe type place. I'll probably catch the tail end of the show and then the banquet, I want to see San Fran and the Golden Gate Bridge etc.
One thing I will say about the hotel is, it is it has some annoying FEATURES. They told me when I reserved the rooms they had broadband internet access to plug my laptop into. BS! The have a WebTV type crap thing for $10+tax for till noon the next day. It also has in room gaing, sort of. $7 an hour to play old Nintendo64 games.. PFFFT. So I had planned on putting up a show report tonight with pictures tonight for you all, but that won't happen now. Oh well, maybe I will pay the crappy $10 and give you a text report.
So far San Fran is neat, and I only have 1 minute left at this crappy cyber terminal so I've got to go. L8r :-D
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Hey Red,
That s*cks about the inet stuff and all. Been there. Oh we have this but when you are there it is not.
I wanna see MOS 1.4 details etc. :-)
Ohh how about the C-One? Still no release? That is a must have babe.
Coder
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That is a must have babe.
What ? One babe not enough for you ? ;-)
So how's it to be far away from home?
@Red,
So that means no video report from you then ? :-D ;-)
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@Seer
That is a must have babe.
I ment the computer. :-)
So how's it to be far away from home?
Holland is nice after been away from it for some time.
Coder
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Hm, dunno if you'll be back but,
1. See what the WebTV's plugged into?
2. Maybe they meant 802.11b?
For something like this, may as well complain loudly and see what comes of it, at least when it's time to pay the bill. ;)
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That is a must have babe. ;-)
I ment the computer. :-)
Yeah yeah, I know all about you "bedroom coders" :-D ;-) :-P
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Ok I bit the bullet and paid for day of WebTV in the hotel room. God d*mn is this painful! Amigans complain about their browsers? WebTV's browser is much worse! Oh well.
The secret guest that as hinted at, that was Ben Hermans. He is here and has been giving OS4 Power Point presentations. I had the pleasure of meeting quite a few people so far, Wayne, Targhan, greenboy, bbrv(both), downix, kermit, codesmith and others. Very nice people i must say.
Anyhow show report? Not much to say at the moment really. I missed most of th day and only caught part of the last OS4 presentation which there wasn't anything that we don't already know. I didn't see wht machine is supposed to be demoing OS4, but mybe I missed it because I was late today. the MOS 1.4 demostration machine looks petty sharp. I got a Super Bundle:-)
GRRRRRRRRRR this WebTV is TERRIBLE! GRRR.. A C64 would bebtter! grrrr..
Anyhow, the banquet is soon so I've got to go. If anthing major is anounced I will report back. Otherwise I will take pictures tommorow and if nothing else put them up somewhere when I get back in Fl.
GRRR I hate WebTV!
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Hey, Web TV uses a 64 bit Mips CPU, should run CIRCLES around anything Amiga!!!! Because Amigas are old junky tech! ;-)
A1!
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I just want to know the status of today's MP3's. :-)
I was going to try to grab audio myself, but my setup said "uh-uh!" :-(
There were so many drop-outs that I could hardly make out what they were talking about. I was trying during the Hermans interview. I guess that's what happens when your 56k modem will only connect at 33.6. ;-)
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@red
I just got back from the show...I'm sorry we
didn't get a chance to meet! :(
@all
My overall impression of today...
The show was interesting, perhaps not as crowded
as I would have expected, but nontheless there
was a steady stream in circulation during the
time I was present.
Originally, I intended to try both OS4 and
MorphOS, but unfortunately the OS4 booth did
not seem to have any terminals available for
public use. The demonstrations from both Hermans
and the other fellow (can't recall his name, but
he is a CS prof. at a local uni) looked
promising; there were considerable
improvements to the GUI operations and
customization from 3.5/9. Also the "Mt. Ranier"
CD support and TCP/IP seems a nice added
benefit. My verdict...'IF" the OS becomes
available for the Peg I will buy it. Hyperion
does seem to be putting extreme efforts into
releasing a quality product.
Trying MorphOS for the first time, it was indeed
very responsive, and had quite a polished feel
about it in regard to overall appearance and
general OS operation (scrolling, opening progs.
etc). The G4 equipped Peg's were in action, as
well as the Superbundle. In my sleepy fog I did
not for some reason ask for details about the
Superbundle/MorphOS 1.4...but I was very glad to
hear that the Peg2 is still on schedule for
September...and...did I mention...the G4 card is
a work of art? Genesi had the biggest consistant
crowd at the show, by far. Targhan, Damien
and Nate are *very* (cannot stress this enough!)
nice people and represent the company well...
BB and RV also are friendly and professional
in person. There were many other polite people
present as well.
I also had the great experience of meeting
Wayne and others from the Huntsville group,
and must say that speaking with them turned
out to be the highlight of the show. There
is a definate quality about the character of
these individuals that is sorely lacking in
today's world.
-D-
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@Redrumloa
So is there anything about MorphOS and Pegasos at the show that we did not already know? Maybe MorphOS1.4 isn't a beta now? Or maybe Peg 2 isn't going to be a BT3 type project? Have they selected a northbridge supplier so they can make Peg3 real? C'mon spill the beans :-)
@-D-
Glad to hear someone other than me has picked up on the Hyperion quality obsession. :-)
I am split 50/50 about whether its a good idea, if they had done what Bplan did with MorphOS and "got it out there" regardless on PPC hardware it might have crashed a lot and we would kiss goodbye to the AmigaOS "reputation" for not being responsible for everyday crashes ( although lack of application space crash protection is still annoying ).
OTOH they might have saved themselves from a lot off troll-slam crap from the fanatics.
However MorphOS got itself a reputation for crashing ( deserved or not ) by being first out the "door". So which project management evil you gonna take? For once we have the opportunity to observe what happens to both methods of producing products in the real world. Interesting :D ( for me )
Expectations are running so high at the moment.
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>Glad to hear someone other than me has picked up
>on the Hyperion quality obsession.
Indeed. From what was demonstrated by Hermans, I
have no doubts that OS4 will make its users
happy.
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Now it is official - Wayne Hunt joins GENESI
See www.morphos-news.de
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> Now it is official - Wayne Hunt joins GENESI
> See www.morphos-news.de
Good for him. I'll have to start spending some time there.
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However MorphOS got itself a reputation for crashing ( deserved or not ) by being first out the "door
I never heard of that reputation. People who are running MOS 1.3 know that it is a beta and should accept it as such with whatever flaws it has...thats why they call it a "beta" release?
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You know I said as much myself, and got liberally flamed for it.
Want me to publish a list of links? :)
In fact, on a topic the other day, Hooligan spoofed the whole debate in a witty way, and you IIRC contributed to that topic, something like "MorphOS is buggy crap, only beta etc".
Heres the quote ( MorphOS on A1 )
Oh no not again
.. But what I have learned from past half a year, they tell, MorphOS is buggy, in beta stage, lacks features etc. etc.
Why would any selfrespecting AmigaOne owner want it when they have OS4 ?
Note that he finds someone calling it in beta stage "smud" so watch your back.
(end of edit)
Ambient was shown on a number of occasions, in public, most famously in WOASE ( ? ) where all people were doing for months afterwards ( even now ) was referring to its buggy nature.
Then we have the video microwave thing that also did the same ( again ).
Point is, its a beta, its not finished, but its in the public eye and people will have their bread and circusses.
You may wish to see here a prime example:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1057607185&category=news&number=71#comment
And see how it gets resolved down between me and one other person ( yet others keep butting in to try and start a flamewar over it ).
Dave. :-P
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>And see how it gets resolved down between me and one other person ( yet others keep butting in to try and start a flamewar over it ).
Now a major motion picture starring Arnold Schwarzenegger ;)
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LOL :-D
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@ -D-
Thank you for your post! :-) Very interesting to read.
@ redrumloa
Looking forward to a "maxi-report" soon! ;-)
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Now a major motion picture starring Arnold Schwarzenegger ;)
Plot summary:
A robot from the Dave P series travels back in time to destroy a dangerous new machine named Pegasos. Unlike its verbally-challenged predecessor ("hasta la vista, babe"), this terminator his designed to kill with words. He's soon tracked down by a renegade terminator from the future, codenamed bbrv. This is a highly advanced dual-brain machine, which, amazingly, meets little suspicion in chat rooms despite its dual structure. Using secret verbal weapons, Peg Pongs, Dave P's electronic circuits are overpowered and rebooted into a harmless state, mildly confused about anything named Pegasos. The original mission seems lost. But then things get real complicated with the arrival of a pair of identical terminators posing as programming twin brothers under the supervision of a Hyperion class terminator, a prototype based on the latest B.E.N. technology.
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Very funny and extremely innaccurate :) Now turn that talent to something useful ;)
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@ Dietmar
:lol: :lol: :roflmao: :lol: :lol:
Cheers!
:pint:
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@Dave P
Its funny that such a cute avatar can hide such a troll! You are talking absolute BS about MorphOS. I have been running MOS 1.3 since April and it is more reliable than OS 3.9 and Amiga 4000T here. ** The reason there was no OS4 on a computer for the public's use on the show floor is because IT is Crash Prone and not even BETA yet.. that is sad considering how long they have had the project.
I do like Hyperion a lot as I like Eyetech and Alan. However, we can all see the AINC is D E A D... long live Amiga!
Genesi and Pegasos is the way of the future... it is obvious with the organization of the platform, the Amiga people associated with it, and the state its in with Native Applications and a Free Software System.
Hyperion better get OS4 for A1 soon or it's too late...
Although its cool that alot of the MOS native apps can be easily ported... All Amigans need Amiga Inc out of the picture so Amiga can Live!
magnetic
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would kiss goodbye to the AmigaOS "reputation" for not being responsible for everyday crashes
LOL!
By the way many ex-Amigians remember infamous Guru Meditation very well. Fault in OS or not many still consider Amiga was nothing but an unstable piece of crap.
But AmigaOS was never qualified as a stable operating system. A/Box is same piece of crap as AmigaOS was (in regard of MP).
Anyway, I know some things that can crash A/Box but not AmigaOS.
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Unlike its verbally-challenged predecessor ("hasta la vista, babe"), this terminator his designed to kill with words.
Then maybe Genesi should have let that terminator do the talking at Amiwest, because it was clear that the three or four they had up there didn't have a clue about what they were suppose to be talking about.
:-P
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???
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Glad to hear someone other than me has picked up on the Hyperion quality obsession.
I am split 50/50 about whether its a good idea, if they had done what Bplan did with MorphOS and "got it out there" regardless on PPC ....
As Janne responded to you at ann.lu, the lower layers of MorphOS were done first, and then the higher level things worked on (still in progress), so it was possible to "get it out there" early since the functional parts were ready, and the hardware available. I suppose partly because Genesi was the "outsider," there was greater motivation to create a public impact early on, whereas with the Amiga line, people are accustomed to waiting.
An early beta release hasn't been an option for Hyperion, since they've had the higher-level parts in progress longer, but are still working on the low-level things (though apparently getting close). So it has never been possible for Hyperion to "get it out there" since it only now is running -- to some extent -- on expanded Amigas, and still isn't running on AmigaOnes to speak of.
So at bottom it hasn't been "quality obsession" that has kept Hyperion from releasing a beta of AOS4 to the public. It's been the fact that there isn't a functioning beta to release (or at least hadn't been up to the point of the AOS4 World Tour) equivalent to the early MorphOS releases, and of course still isn't for the AmigaOne, as far as we know. Of course, it could very well be that Hyperion want to keep it in-house until a runs like a Swiss watch, but that's an issue separate from the fact that AOS4 still isn't complete enough to release, except just recently for expanded Amigas.
-- gary_c
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Why the hell can't we have a show in Florida??!! *sigh*
Anyway, IF a show comes to Orlando *hint*hint* let me know and I will check with the hotel about the ammenities, including highspeed access, for ya!
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>Why the hell can't we have a show in Florida??!!
>*sigh*
>Anyway, IF a show comes to Orlando *hint*hint*
http://www.morphzone.org/shows/Orlando/ (http://www.morphzone.org/shows/Orlando/)
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I am split 50/50 about whether its a good idea, if they had done what Bplan did with MorphOS and "got it out there" regardless on PPC hardware it might have crashed a lot and we would kiss goodbye to the AmigaOS "reputation" for not being responsible for everyday crashes ( although lack of application space crash protection is still annoying ).
See? They could have released it earlier BUT they know they will get crucified if its released earlier than it otherwise would be.
I haven't said "Oh yes well AmigaOS4 would have been released before MorphOS otherwise" or even that this is the only reason.
Sheesh.
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@Magnetic
@Dave P
Its funny that such a cute avatar can hide such a troll!
Grow up dude.
You are talking absolute BS about MorphOS. I have been running MOS 1.3 since April and it is more reliable than OS 3.9 and Amiga 4000T here.
No, you fool, go and read it again, I said that it got a reputation deserved or undeserved for being crash prone after two erroneous showings where Ambient crashed like hell.
I never said it was less reliable than AmigaOS, I pointed out the two project management choices you have - release something to the public that is less than ready and claim the laurels of being first out but take the rough when it visibly sucks in public ( WOASE prime example ) *OR* sit on it until it is totally bug free ( unrealistic ) 'OR' somewhere between A and b.
Blah blah snip propaganda. Get over it and next time read properly Magnetic. Bread and circusses mate.
Neither you or Gary_C have any idea about the internal state of the AmigaOS4 project, or what priorities they have set. However suffice to say you have to admit if they released something that crashed when a mouse was moved on the desktop they would get burned in hell by you guys :-) This is, dear Magnetic, what I am pointing out to you.
The reason they have not released a public Beta is that they are not, and may never, run a public Beta, and certainly never claim its a final product, unlike some of the more fanatical and stupid "camp" members of the blue team did with MorphOS.
READ IT PROPERLY BEFORE FLAMING ME NEXT TIME!
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@Dietmar...
You really should write Hollywood action movies, you know :)
Here's a toast for a good laugh. Thanks.
Sincerely,
-Kenneth Straarup.
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For having a pre-April Pegasos board and MOS 1.3...it sure does run ALOT better then my A3k did..only time it (MOS 1.3) crashes is when I experiment to see if some old Amiga programs work with it. Other then that, its stable as hell, and VERY fast.
Pegasos/MOS is the future.. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!
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No DaveP, they CAN'T release it, they are still working on the low level drivers, not because they decided to be wierd in the way they go about it, but because the old OS was so insanely mixed with it's hardware, besides the multitude of assembly code they had to rewrite, they have to 'unhook' everything from the old chips, no mroe agnus, denise, paula, gary or whatever. The low level stuff has gotta be hardest because they really are porting the original OS.
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DaveP:
OTOH they might have saved themselves from a lot off troll-slam crap from the fanatics.
To be honest, the trolls don't matter :-) Trolls are a general annoyance especially to those that are their target, but nothing more.
What does matter is the person that buys AmigaOS 4 and expects a well-rounded, stable and finished product. That is what we are trying to achieve.
Trolls, please fire away ;-)
( although lack of application space crash protection is still annoying ).
We are planning to provide a special kernel to developers that has exactly this feature. It is mostly unsuitable for the general user since it will make life very hard for most existing applications, but for those that want to test and try their development on a kernel with isolated address spaces, this will be both a testing aid as well as a means to introduce this feature in the not-too-distant future.
Having said this, OS 4 has the permanent enforcer running because of its memory subsystem (featured in the upcoming CAM edition), and general stability improvements by write-protecting application code and ro-data.
You can also allocate memory as non-public (i.e. just ommit the MEMF_PUBLIC flag) when appropriate; this will later on shield your application data from outside access.
Finally, application stack will be allocated into a special segment that has holes between the different stacks that are access protected, so that a program running out of stack space first gets its own stack enlarged (up to a defined maximum), and runaways that just go into an endless recursion and eventually exhaust their maximum share of stack space wil get hit over the head.
(Hey, did I mention that all of the above also applies to 68k programs? :-) )
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Neither you or Gary_C have any idea about the internal state of the AmigaOS4 project, or what priorities they have set. However suffice to say you have to admit if they released something that crashed when a mouse was moved on the desktop they would get burned in hell by you guys
No, Dave, you must be confusing me with somebody else. I've never flamed about AmigaOS4. I recognize that it's a tough job and the Hyperion staff and others working on it are doing what looks like a great job to bring it along as they have. The criticisms I've had are about Amiga, Inc. management, not the coders of AOS. I could ask you for URLs where I was critical of AOS4, but I'll save you the trouble of looking; to the best of my knowledge, there aren't any. I have argued with you about your idea that Hyperion held back on releasing an early beta of AOS4, but I haven't knocked the OS itself; in fact I acknowledge that in some ways it is ahead of MOS development and it'll be a challenge for MOS to match it in those departments.
-- gary_c
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I received a mail from someone with the topic "Stack Space" as a result from posting here, but there was a false sender on the mail, so I cannot reply.
If possible, could the sender mail me again, with an intact From: please :-)
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@redrum:
I had the pleasure of meeting quite a few people so far, Wayne, Targhan, greenboy, bbrv(both), downix, kermit, codesmith and others. Very nice people i must say.
Hey thanks :-) You're allright too. I mostly hung around the C64 crowd (Jens, Jeri, Joe Torre, etc) and drank Ben Hermans' margaritas :-D The Genesi crew seemed horribly busy all the time, so I only got a chance to chat with you, Downix, Greenboy and Neko. I would've liked to say hi to Bill Buck, but every time I looked at him he seemed to be coordinating something and I didn't want to interrupt (or does he always look like that? :-P ) That was definitely a fun show, I'm looking forward to going again next year.