Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: arkpandora on January 19, 2008, 10:28:40 PM
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Hi,
Here is another LCD-TV-related newbie question. I am considering buying a small (20') LCD TV that can fit on my desk, but most of these TV have a native resolution of only 640x400. So what happens when they have to display 640x512 PAL High Res Laced or some higher resolution ? Unlike LCD monitors, are they all able to scale down higher resolutions than the native one ?
Thank you for any LCD-TV-related knowledgeable answer.
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It eighter downscales the image (bad) or it doesn't show it.
Btw, there are hybrid lcd/tv pc monitors who are more then capable of showing Amiga resolutions, 20" goes to 1680x1050
Look for the Samsung Syncmaster 2032MW; It's listed for €283 in my country.
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Can that monitor also handle lower resolutions well? A lot of LCD monitors have terrible display if not used with the native resolution...
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Flashlab wrote:
Can that monitor also handle lower resolutions well? A lot of LCD monitors have terrible display if not used with the native resolution...
An LCD monitor has only one native resolution (well, actually more, but you don't want to go that way)
It however looks a lot better then the other way around (downscaling a larger resolution on a low resolution screen)
And some monitors have an option to add a border to the unused part of the lower resolution, resulting in the same sharpness as the native mode. But you'll have to deal with the border(s)
Too bad they don't behave like CRT's, but that's just the downside of LCD's.
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Yeah I know how it works, but do you know about this particular Samsung monitor how it behaves? I have seen monitors that display non-native resolutions quite ok and some that make a horrible mess out of it.
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I have no experience with that monitor, perhaps you should ask people at http://gathering.tweakers.net subforum Videoplanken&Beeldkannonen or click me (http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_topics/8)
Please do a search first, they are picky like that if you start a topic without searching first.
For international users, it's a Dutch only site, but if you are friendly and post in English, people are willing to help.
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Thank you for your replies.
My current LCD monitor (a 17' NEC MultiSync LCD1770GX) has no RGB input and is unable to display any lower frequency than 56 Hz. As I also have a flicker-fixed Amiga, if I change monitors I would prefer the new one to be able to display 50 Hz through the VGA input. But the Samsung 2032MW is rated 56 Hz only as well. Has anyone tried to input 50 Hz through the VGA-in of this monitor ? Or does anybody know another LCD monitor that has both a SCART RGB input and the ability of displaying a 50 Hz VGA screen ?
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That Samsung model has both scart and a VGA input.
Basically what you need is an Amiga video cable with a vga connector and the scart connector.
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That's right, but then you have to select another input on the monitor every time you want to display a 50 Hz screen.
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It beats a dual monitor setup if you lack space and money :lol:
AFAIK there is no lcd monitor that is capable of using one input only on all resolutions.
And since CRT's are end of line, and cannot cope with Amiga PAL/NTSC resolutions anymore, you are out of luck.
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Some LCD monitors are definitely able to display 50 Hz VGA screens, what are PAL screens once they have gone through a flicker-fixer, so there may be such a monitor that in addition is equipped with a RGB input. Then not only could I use only one monitor whatever the Amiga, but I could use only one input if this Amiga has a flicker-fixer.
Given the late hour, I suppose that Buffy is now out vampire-slaying.
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I've never seen a VGA 50hz capable lcd monitor in my life. Well, the ones I looked at given a certain price range. Perhaps Eizo have them or Sony professional (broadcast) monitors, but they are VERY expensive. If you really need realtime switching (for what purpose?) then you'd be better off with a dual monitor setup. If you have a pc, you can use the dvi input as well, and span the monitor in Windows XP for extra large real estate :-D
But, again, I don't know your budget and if you have room for a solution like that.
edit:
Buffy is out indeed (looks at empty bed) :-(
Actually I tried to change my avatar but no luck, animated gif's aren't accepted :-?
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Well, no, I haven't the room or budget for such a solution. I will stick to one affordable monitor.
Thank you again for your help - and time.
Buffy is out indeed (looks at empty bed) :-(
How sad.
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My time is your time, we Amigans stick together you know :-D
Oh and about the empty bed, more room for me :lol:
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I forgot to add that displaying 50 Hz screens through an Amiga flicker-fixer connected to the VGA input, rather than the native Amiga output connected to the RGB input, has also the advantage of preserving a 24-bit palette, which to my knowledge is reduced to something like 16 or 18-bit when it goes through the built-in flicker-fixer of a LCD monitor's RGB input.
I see that the 932MW is another (smaller - 19' instead of 20) Samsung model that has RGB inputs.
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arkpandora wrote:
I forgot to add that displaying 50 Hz screens through an Amiga flicker-fixer connected to the VGA input, rather than the native Amiga output connected to the RGB input, has also the advantage of preserving a 24-bit palette, which to my knowledge is reduced to something like 16 or 18-bit when it goes through the built-in flicker-fixer of a LCD monitor's RGB input.
That depends on the build in scaler of the monitor. Modern hybrid tv/pc monitors won't have those issues.
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Buffy is always there when you need her.
At all hours of the day, I mean.
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I bought the Samsung SyncMaster 2032MW and I think it's great! Thanks Krusher for the tip!
It shows non-native resolutions quite well!
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Good to hear that! Can you post a photo of your setup?
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Sadly, apart from my monitor, I kind of still live in the digital stone age; I don't have a camera and my phone doesn't have one either...
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Flashlab wrote:
Sadly, apart from my monitor, I kind of still live in the digital stone age; I don't have a camera and my phone doesn't have one either...
Oh well, you can't have everything :lol:
Too bad though, would be a nice reference for other people if they also want a tft monitor.
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For reference I can tell you this:
I have connected to this monitor:
- PC (DVI)
- Amiga (VGA)
- Digital TV via SCART
And I will use the S-Video port for my Amiga when I get an RGB to S-Video adapter.
The monitor has very good image quality; for TV watching you need a good quality signal because the screen quality won't hide any of the noise.
Also there's the option to switch between 16:9 and 4:3 screen proportions with the included remote.
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Thanks Flashlab for your report.
The LG M1721TA and M1921TA models might suit a PAL Amiga better than the two Samsung models, because their native resolution is 1280x1024, that is both the same ratio as PAL Low and High Res modes, and an exact multiple. Scaling would then bring better results.
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True but the Samsung can display 4:3 in the correct ratio. It has a switch to do that. Besides that the non-native resolutions look really good!
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Good point. But then at least the native resolution is not a multiple of the PAL one, so the monitor has to use anti-aliasing tricks, when a 1024-wide screen just uses several pixels instead of one.
OK, there isn't much difference between 1024 and 1050.
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Yeah I know, but somehow this monitor does that really good. I have seen some TFT screens that really suck at this but the Samsung does a great job. Damn I need pictures to show you ;-)!
Only "problem" is that I haven't been able to set a decent 320x240 resolution for now...
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What's the "problem" with 320x240 ?
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The resolution isn't filling the screen enough (about a quarter). Must try some more tweaking in CGXMode.
This is no problem for AGA screens because those are connected through S-Video/SCART.
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I thought you were talking about PAL Low Res, but if I understand you well your 320x240 is a custom mode of the graphic card.
So you can confirm that PAL Low Res 320x200(256) doesn't create problems when displayed through the SCART or S-Video input.
I will probably buy a monitor tomorrow, so the fate of my computing future is resting with you right now.
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Yeah I mean RTG modes; for playing around with emulators. For ScummVM I use 640x480 with double size screens.
The PAL screens work fine because they are handled differently; you do have to switch manually though but that's not a big problem for me.
EDIT: Don't put too much stress on me ;-)
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Flashlab, where about are you in our country? If it's in Noord-Holland I might be able to come over and take photo's if you wish.
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I'm in Friesland, I'll take a camera from work home tomorrow and make some pictures.
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Fryslân Boppe :-D
Hehe, I have some roots there.
Anyway, pics say more then anything :-)
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All right ! It seems there's nothing to choose between this Samsung and those LG, but as my Samsung vacuum cleaner was a real crap, I will probably buy a LG...
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Yeah Bopperdebop! I'm not Frysian anyway...
Will post some pics tomorrow!
So your vacuum cleaner really sucked! :lol:
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arkpandora wrote:
All right ! It seems there's nothing to choose between this Samsung and those LG, but as my Samsung vacuum cleaner was a real crap, I will probably buy a LG...
LMAO
Don't you dare compare Samsung vacuums to their monitor range! :lol:
It's like comparing Nilfisk vacuums to Amiga Inc. delivering something :lol:
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I'm sure I am going to dream of red and white gingham boing balls trying to escape fat and Stock-Exchange-diagram-blue Samsung vacuum cleaners tonight.
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Some pics here (http://flashlab.freepgs.com/Samsung/)...
I don't have a picture for AGA screens because I don't have the right cable yet but I tested the SCART and that works fine and you have a lot of options for screen size (4:3/16:9, Wide etc...). That will work with AGA screens too. I added a TV still so you can see.
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Nice pics :-D
But localized to Dutch? I never could get used to that.
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Yeah I think the translation isn't too bad ;-)!
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Thank you for this vivid preview.
I have ordered it today... the same Samsung ! The LG monitors I was interested in were either more expensive or unavailable here in Belgium.
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darn, I should have bought those Samsung stocks :crazy: :-P
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And we could have arranged some Beneluxsamsamigans meeting.
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Not a bad idea though, but arranging it would be a bit of an hassle (accommodation etc.)
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Looks like you got a good and steady screens.
That TV/monitor will be in my wishlist.
BTW: good pictures!
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Yes, I'm happy with my purchase. Very good screen quality and vivid colours. Also no ghosting during fast animations; good monitor!
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Not a bad idea though, but arranging it would be a bit of an hassle (accommodation etc.)
!
It was more a matter of not resisting to the need for a big stupid neologism.
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arkpandora wrote:
It was more a matter of not resisting to the need for a big stupid neologism.
:lol: I took the bait :-P
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I have just installed my new Samsung SyncMaster 2032MW. I must say I am really disappointed, for two reasons.
First, this monitor is unable to display interlaced screens : instead it displays only one line in two. In other words, a 640x400 interlaced screen will be displayed in 320x200.
Second, I was right to compare it to my bad Samsung vacuum-cleaner : the building quality is poor. The monitor emits a permanent sizzling noise which is unbearable in a silent environment. And there is no firm junction between the monitor and its stand, so that every move is tricky and it looks like the monitor may fall without warning...
So I have to sell it and find something else...
Can somebody help me answer the following question : is there any LCD monitor with video input which is able to display interlaced screens without losing half the lines ?
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I know from experience that the smaller Sharp "Aquos" TVs handle interlaced screens, in fact, they are rendered perfect with no flicker.
Couple of issues though:
While NTSC screens were fine, PAL screens would do weird things... even though the monitor is supposed to handle PAL (various flavors of PAL, NTSC, and SECAM are selectable). However, perhaps the units sold in PAL regions will perform differently.
AGA palette was reduced (16-bit). There are a ton of variations/different models, so all may not be the same.
**edit**
Also, I've tried the Samsung 171MP, which is an older (but still pretty nice) PVA panel (also handles AGA perfectly). Interlaced screens look decent, but they do flicker a bit. (Not like an old 1084, but noticeable.) Fantastic for most games though, even if 17" makes them look a tad blocky.
Only problem with my NTSC model was that it (aargh) didn't handle PAL. Not a problem for you, though. They've been out of production for a while, but they pop up on ebay. 170MP and 172MP *probably* work, but stay away from the 15" models as I'm pretty sure they were all TN.
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D, thank you for your answer.
Excuse me : my diagnosis was wrong. The monitor does display interlaced screen. As I was not testing the monitor with an Amiga but with a Philips CDI whose display specifications I don't know well although I'm used to them, I have been mistaken by the fact that this monitor's behaviour was unknown to me, and is too weird to be true. Besides the poor building quality, here are the two main problems of this Samsung monitor :
On the one hand, the monitor scales some resolutions down. This is what happens with a Philips CDI : the standard resolution of the CDI is 380x284, but this monitor displays it in about 320x200, losing on the way about 40 % of the picture's pixel count. As a consequence, this monitor is almost useless with a CDI and probably other computers or consoles.
On the other hand, the scan doubler quality is poor as well : the monitor takes about one second (!) to complete the signal processing. This has two main visual consequences :
1. Animation is awful, especially scrollings. Most of the time your Amiga looks like an emulated 50 Hz PAL Amiga on a 60 Hz screen. As the main advantage of a real Amiga over an emulator is the animation quality (if you can't manage to synchronize your emulated display on your real display), there is no much point in using a real Amiga if you have to use such a TV/monitor.
2. Picture is different during the processing and after the processing. During the processing, the moving parts of the picture are blurred and shaky. As a consequence, what you have on your screen is a real mess unless nothing is moving. Let's consider the mouse pointer : not only is it badly animated as I have just pointed it out, but it is blurred, trembling, and on the other objects (for example icons or drawers) it leaves behind him parasites that takes about one second to disappear.
In conclusion, I think that the Samsung SyncMaster 2032MW is a bad monitor that I would not recommend to anyone, as for the same price you can find better VGA-only monitors. Unless these problems only concern the SCART RGB input. I can't test the S-Video input as I don't own any device that can use it, but I will test the composite input someday.
@Flashlab
Can you confirm that your copy of this Samsung behaves the same way ?
This raises the following question : is every LCD TV/monitor that bad ? This one is my first LCD TV, so I can't tell. In that case, a usable replacement for CRT monitors is yet to be invented.
Would these problems be related to the "TN" technology D is referring to ? Yet they don't appear in analog VGA.
@-D-
D, you are saying that the Samsung 171MP is "fantastic for most games". Would my model or yours be an exception ?
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This raises the following question : is every LCD TV/monitor that bad ? This one is my first LCD TV, so I can't tell. In that case, a usable replacement for CRT monitors is yet to be invented.[/quote]
IMHO, dynamic images (still) do not appear as "fluid" as they can with a good CRT, though they can be entirely acceptable under the right conditions (and with a good quality LCD).
Would these problems be related to the "TN" technology D is referring to ? Yet they don't appear in analog VGA.
Probably not -- generally, TN may have an edge over other panel types when it comes to moving images. Only problem is color loss (edit -- and viewing angle), which can have a negative effect with AGA.
@-D-
D, you are saying that the Samsung 171MP is "fantastic for most games". Would my model or yours be an exception ?
Hard to say, since I've only tried a few LCDTVs. Bottom line is it's almost impossible to get a display that will do everything (or doesn't have at least one major shortcoming) without spending a lot of money, possibly thousands.
The 171MP (PAL version) should be a good LCD for playing games and demos, since it displays non-laced amiga screens very well (and is also decent PC monitor). Naturally, this is keeping in mind some of the limitations of LCD technology, especially with an older panel like the 171MP -- moving images will not be quite as fluid as a CRT (but not terrible, and I'm a little picky), and black levels are only OK. The upshot is colors are bright and beautiful, it makes a good PC (and TV) screen, and it should be easier on the eyes than your average CRT.
There are probably better screens for the task than what you got, and unfortunately it is a crapshot. You may have to try several before you find one that is acceptable. :( Plus, there's a huge subjective element here -- what one finds "perfect" might look like total crap to you.
I hate to say it, but a good quality scaler + good quality CRT monitor is probably the overall "best" for classic amiga use. Maybe Jens will release his rumored scandoubler sometime...
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I'm sorry you have a bad experience! I'm still very pleased with my 2032mw. I use it as my TV as well. I don't have any problem with the build quality; mine has a very sturdy foot and stands very stable.
About the picture quality; as I showed in my pictures (which are like I said of RTG screens), they are of good quality, at least in my opinion.
I still have to try AGA screens; I'm waiting for my S-Video adapter to try it. I will post when I have more info! What connection did you use for the Amiga to the monitor?
Once again I'm sorry you had this bad experience; I feel kind of guilty...
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@D
Thank you again for your help.
There is obviously no comparison between the problems I am running into and what you describe - which are definitely normal drawbacks of the LCD technology. I have used several LCD monitors in VGA until now, and none has ever brought me anything close to such an awful result, which doesn't show up with the VGA input of the same monitor either. So I suppose than the scan doubler is simply very bad.
Can you confirm that you haven't ever noticed the problems I mention on the LCD panels you have used, for example the awful mouse pointer animation, which can't be missed ?
@Flashlab
Thank you for your answer.
Don't worry : several A.org members had recommended Samsung monitors, and I had no reason to expect such a bad result as I expected every LCD TV to have a decent scan doubler.
Even if your Amiga screen pictures were taken from one of the video inputs, I couldn't judge anything from them, as only the moving parts of the picture are affected by these scan doubling horrors, and the Amiga default modes are not concerned by the downscaling problem.
The SCART input is the only video input I have tested until now. Why do you prefer S-Video to SCART for the Amiga ? I hope you won't be as horrified as I am.
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arkpandora, sorry to hear you have issues with the Samsung, but from what you say about it I think you have a bad screen from the start, I suggest you return it and claim your warranty on it. I've seen other people complaining about it and I supsect there is a bad production run out there.
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Well, maybe you are right. That's probably what I will do.
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arkpandora wrote:
@D
Thank you again for your help.
There is obviously no comparison between the problems I am running into and what you describe - which are definitely normal drawbacks of the LCD technology. I have used several LCD monitors in VGA until now, and none has ever brought me anything close to such an awful result, which doesn't show up with the VGA input of the same monitor either.
OK, cool. We are definitely on the same page then! :)
Can you confirm that you haven't ever noticed the problems I mention on the LCD panels you have used, for example the awful mouse pointer animation, which can't be missed ?
No, (except *maybe* the part of the screen being cut-off aspect) those things aren't normal. Amiga screens (that worked) looked just fine on the 171MP and the Aquos, the Aquos even handled the interlaced screens like a champ. I've even played a fair amount of "Battle Duel" on my 740T (using native "vga" modes) and it looked just fine. It does sound like your monitor is either broken or the scandoubler is poor.
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No, (except *maybe* the part of the screen being cut-off aspect) those things aren't normal.
Note that that in the case of the 380x284 CDI screen mode, what the monitor does is not cutting off what goes beyond 320 and 200, but displaying the whole screen as if it was a 320x200 screen. In other words, it degrades the picture.
I've even played a fair amount of "Battle Duel" on my 740T (using native "vga" modes) and it looked just fine.
Note also that the VGA modes run just fine : only the SCART input (and maybe the other scan-doubled inputs) is at fault.
So yes, either it is a bad scan doubler or a bad specimen.
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I'm going to use S-Video because SCART is already taken by my Digital TV. There's a guy on EAB doing a video port to S-Video adapter and I ordered one. Originally to feed it into a TV card for my G-rex but I don't have a suitable card (yet). Since the 2032MW has S-Video IN I'll try that.
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An EAB member has just told me in this thread (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=31303) that his Samsung model (a 225MW) has the same animation problems as mine. So it could mean that no current Samsung model is able to produce decent animation through an RGB input.
In that thread I give the following more detailed description of the problem.
"Here is what any moving part of the screen looks like :
1. When an object moves off, it becomes blurred and starts flickering.
2. As its new position is slowly updated, you can see the objet at a new position while it has not yet been erased from a previous one : for example, when it moves you can see several copies of the mouse pointer (at best it is like the mouse pointer of a PC), while the Amiga mouse pointer's animation is normally perfect.
3. Once the object has been erased from a previous position, it leaves on the picture various distortions that disappear progressively.
4. The picture and objects take about one second to recover their normal appearance.
In addition, I noticed that the 380x284 resolution of the Philips CDI is scaled down to something like 320x200, which makes this monitor unusable with a Philips CDI and maybe other systems, although the CDI works well on any CRT TV or monitor."
Could anyone using an Amiga connected to any LCD TV or monitor's RGB input tell me whether the same symptoms arise ?
Thank you again.
@Flashlab
Please inform me of your results !
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Well, my second SM2032MW has just turned up. The first one had a defective left speaker and has just been sent back.
Hopefully this one will work better than the last.
PS. Super-high res laced modes from the AGA chipset have more horizontal resolution than my XP PC! :-o The only problem is that the mouse pointer shimmers and wobbles on the screen when its moved over objects on the workbench (Also set to high res).
Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.
PPS. Currently using a AmigaKit 23pin RGB - SCART cable with the shielding modified to be now properly grounded.
PPPS. I chose the SM2032MW after reading all your comments here :-D Now I can run both my PC and A1200 on the same monitor ;-)
Hodgkinson.
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Hello,
Thank you for your comments.
Well, my second SM2032MW has just turned up. The first one had a defective left speaker and has just been sent back.
This may again illustrate the poor building quality of the Samsung products.
The only problem is that the mouse pointer shimmers and wobbles on the screen when its moved over objects on the workbench (Also set to high res). Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.
It looks like it is the same problem I describe in the previous post, isn't it ? However, as far as my copy of this monitor is concerned, the mouse pointer always behave this way, and what's true for the mouse pointer is true for every moving or changing object (including for example the objects the pointer is moving over), so that animation in general is of very bad quality (for example any normally smooth scrolling is always jerky).
Can you tell me whether your symptoms (in PAL High Res or Low Res through SCART or any other video input) are exactly those I describe in the previous post, or not ?
Currently using a AmigaKit 23pin RGB - SCART cable with the shielding modified to be now properly grounded.
If your answer to my question is "yes", then I suppose trying another cable wouldn't be of any help for me either. I have tested the two different SCART cables I have always been using with my Amiga, without noticing any difference between them. I don't know if they are properly grounded : how can I see that ?
Now I can run both my PC and A1200 on the same monitor
Then you mean that your Amiga on this monitor looks like an Amiga. My monitor has been sent back to Samsung : I'm waiting for a replacement.
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Im still unpacking the monitor ;-)
I've only noticed the shimmering in the super high res laced modes so far (Having said that I've never had the interlace modes work decently on any other monitors/TV's before), and all the other modes seem to be nice and stable on the "old" LCD. I've tried the old montitor with the composite and its amazing just how much of a improvement RGB makes.
On the same basis Deluxe Galaga and Starfighter look fine with movement on the LCD in their native modes (Yey!), albeit they don't quite fill the screen.
Re shielding, I did it since I could see noise in the dark areas of the screen - It seemed to make a slight improvement. To shield the cable, I connected the screen of the cable to the D Connector shell - Thus grounding the shield. Its important that it isn't grounded at both ends though as this results in ground loops.
When I get the new monitor hooked up I'll try to remember come back and let you know what its like.
Hodgkinson.
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I've only noticed the shimmering in the super high res laced modes so far (Having said that I've never had the interlace modes work decently on any other monitors/TV's before)
On my copy, the problem shows up in every screen mode, interlaced or not. It's even worse in interlaced modes, but as things are it doesn't make a difference. Even in interlaced modes, the result on a normal CRT monitor or TV is incomparably better, except that the screen as a whole does not flicker on the Samsung - but every moving object does badly so it doesn't make a difference either.
all the other modes seem to be nice and stable on the "old" LCD.
On the same basis Deluxe Galaga and Starfighter look fine with movement on the LCD in their native modes (Yey!), albeit they don't quite fill the screen.
Then your copy seems to be better than mine.
To shield the cable, I connected the screen of the cable to the D Connector shell - Thus grounding the shield. Its important that it isn't grounded at both ends though as this results in ground loops.
In case my new copy is as bad as the first, I will try this option if I can.
When I get the new monitor hooked up I'll try to remember come back and let you know what its like.
OK - thank you very much.
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Hang fire with the RGB cable mod - I'll see if I can upload a photo of the alterations.
I might be able to help you better if you could identify the screen modes that appeared worst, what aspect ratio and brightness settings were on your monitor at the time, and what screen mode/size/colour/overscan/Icontrol settings you were using so that I can attempt to match my A1200 to your system settings.
I’m assuming that the video is directly from the AGA chipset and fed into the monitor via the SCART plug.
Hodgkinson.
PS. My opinion is that the monitor bases themselves are reasonable, but on the other hand it feels like your going to break something when you try to attach the base to the monitor! :crazy:
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Thanks for your help.
The only video input I have used is the SCART input. I first tried a standard PAL Philips CDI system with a standard SCART cable, then a PAL Amiga 600 with a standard RGB to SCART cable, both systems I am used to. On the Amiga I tested the default High Res and High Res Laced screen modes in 4 colours, and ran a great variety of Low Res games. In any case the result is what I described.
As for the monitor settings and aspect ratio, they don't change anything to the result either.
PS. My opinion is that the monitor bases themselves are reasonable, but on the other hand it feels like your going to break something when you try to attach the base to the monitor!
I too almost had to sit on the monitor in order to fit it into the base. Then suddendly both fit together, but as there is no noise you are not sure whether you have to stop pushing or not. And the whole is not very stable. Compared to my other LCD monitor, an outstanding NEC LCD1770GX, this Samsung looks like a child toy.
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The RGB Cable mod photo/description has just been uploaded to the photo section of this site. It should be visible <24hrs.
Hope it’s of some use,
Hodgkinson.
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Thank you !
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OK Then. Just fired up the new SM2032MW monitor on the Amiga after testing it out on the XP PC (Everything’s fine with the PC and the left-hand speaker is now operational!).
Pretty much the same as the last monitor as far as the Amiga picture is concerned when operating with 15Khz RGB from the video port and into the monitor via SCART. A fair amount of noise in the background (Of any image) - Even with the RGB cable mod - Although this could be due to any number of environmental factors.
Also, the high and super-high res modes (PAL or NTSC) - And especially the interlaced counterparts of those modes - Seem to be susceptible to some kind of flickering/fogging with moving objects on the workbench. For instance, the mouse pointer (Set to high res mode in my case) seems to leave a foggy trail behind it whilst the monitor updates. The same applies when dragging a drawer, the outline of the drawer leaves a trail behind it. Opening and closing drawers sometimes has a more pronounced effect (As you'ld figure).
On the other hand, this effect doesn't seem to be noticeable in games that bring up their own screen or bash the hardware directly, probably due to the vastly reduced resolution that they use.
For the tests I’ve been using the fixed wide-mode on the monitor with all the colour settings left on some particular fixed mode. For this particular monitor mode interlacing seems to be a necessity with the higher resolution modes in order to get the aspect ratio of objects on the screen to appear correct - Without it objects are stretched vertically.
At the moment, the composite input looks exceptionally crummy (Mind you, a phono cable with RF running down the opposite channel might have something to do with this...), letters tend to fade into themselves in the super-high res mode. I've yet to test the tuner by feeding the A1200 RF modulator output into the RF socket (Need to find a coax adaptor) – Hopefully this might allow Picture-In-Picture when running with a PC on the VGA input.
Hodgkinson.
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Thank you for this review ! It seems that your monitor is not much better than mine - if it is better at all.
The background noise seemed negligible here in comparison with discolouration, but on plain colours I especially noticed vertical stripes.
Your moving objects' flickering/fogging resemble feature 2 of the animation problem description I gave above :
1. When an object moves off, it becomes blurred and starts flickering.
2. As its new position is slowly updated, you can see the objet at a new position while it has not yet been erased from a previous one : for example, when it moves you can see several copies of the mouse pointer (at best it is like the mouse pointer of a PC), while the Amiga mouse pointer's animation is normally perfect.
3. Once the object has been erased from a previous position, it leaves on the picture various distortions that disappear progressively.
4. The picture and objects take about one second to recover their normal appearance.
Could you confirm you see these four features too ?
On the other hand, this effect doesn't seem to be noticeable in games that bring up their own screen or bash the hardware directly, probably due to the vastly reduced resolution that they use.
As far as my copy of this monitor is concerned, animation in every Low Res game is as bad. Only feature 3 maybe is not as marked. For example, any scrolling (especially vertical) will be jerky and you can see every moving object's drawing petrify (change from its moving look to its static look) in the second after it stops moving.
For the tests I’ve been using the fixed wide-mode on the monitor with all the colour settings left on some particular fixed mode. For this particular monitor mode interlacing seems to be a necessity with the higher resolution modes in order to get the aspect ratio of objects on the screen to appear correct - Without it objects are stretched vertically
I don't understand what you mean, as I suppose that Amiga screen modes in the wide-mode should be stretched horizontally, so that interlacing them would only emphasize that stretching. Do Low Res and High Res look decent in 4:3 mode ?
If composite looks crummier than SCART, then I don't want to imagine what it looks.
a phono cable with RF running down the opposite channel might have something to do with this...
I don't understand either : what do you mean in simple words ?
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Just a quick reply...
As for the animation, without going and double checking I'd say that mine was doing pretty much what you describe there. Not sure about the exact specifics at this point in time though, but I have noticed the effect sometimes on the majority of the screen, espicially when booting.
It’s odd that you notice the odd animation effects in the low res modes. As I turn the screen resolution down, and turn off interlacing, the animation problems *virtually* disappear. As for Deluxe Galaga and Starfighter that run in their own screen I can't see any artefacts at all except for the noise in the black areas of the picture.
The wide mode on the monitor is the only mode that allows the image to fill the whole screen (Along with autowide), so that's the mode that I've concentrated on testing. I wanted to avoid the autowide mode to avoid having my overscan settings screwed up, and it seems wasteful to have a huge monitor and not make best use of it. If I find 5 minutes I'll give the other settings a try.
Oh, I did try out the NTSC monitor mode. Although it did work, no improvement in the animation front there im afraid and bright colours generated a halo around them (Such as the mouse pointer).
Re the cable, I had a stereo phono cable, with one channel plugged into the composite output and the other plugged into the RF modulator for testing purposes. The composite side of the cable went into the AV input on the monitor (And the RF channel remains disconnected due to a lack of a suitable adaptor at the moment), and im figuring that, in hindsight, that RF pickup and radiation from the other channel of the cable could of distorted the composite image. I hope that makes sense.
Hodgkinson.
PS. I’m looking around for some ferrite clip-on beads for the SCART cable to try to further remidy my background-noise problem.
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Given the light building quality of this monitor, I wouldn't be surprised if every copy behaves differently.
If the animation problem is the same on your monitor in Low Res as on mine, then you should at least notice features 1 and 2 from my description. Feature 1 would be obvious in screens that use a mouse pointer, pop-up menus or any sprite of which you can control the movement or presence on a still screen. The mouse pointer and pop-up menu in the game "Future Wars" are perfect examples. Feature 2 may sometimes only be obvious in constant speed scrollings that are normally perfect on a CRT monitor. I have tried a great variety of games, but not Deluxe Galaga or Starfighter. You may notice it clearly in the intro of "Test Drive II" or the intro text scrolling in "Vroom".
that RF pickup and radiation from the other channel of the cable could of distorted the composite image. I hope that makes sense.
It does : now I understand, thanks.
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I'll have a look at the low-res modes when I find chance ;-)
I've got some connectors coming in a few days to allow me to make up a super-duper-composite lead for the monitor in an effort to improve the composite mode - For some reason the monitor allows PIP (When using the VGA input on a PC) with the RF or AV inputs but not with SCART :-(
The plan is to have both the RGB and composite connected from the Amiga to the monitor so I can use RGB for full screen work and composite for PIP.
Hodgkinson.
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I will try PIP through SCART when I have my monitor replacement : as things are, it might work.
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Just sent a complaint to Samsung.
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It's good to hear that you can use an Amiga with an LCD/TV. But I have a lot of questions to ask.
1. I want to use my A1200 only to play games and a little workbench, that means the native modes (ECS,AGA games).
2. That cable from AmigaKit (RGB -> SCART), is the best solution to connect your Amiga to an LCD/TV?
3. You get the same picture quality like the original monitors of Amiga (1084S)? I care mostly in ECS and AGA games.
4. Searching for that LCD/TV the horizonal frequency must starts from 15KHz?
I heard that LG monitors are most suitable connecting to an Amiga.
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Hi,
Well,
1. The quality of the result depends on the quality of the scan doubler, whose role is to change the PAL/NTSC video signal into a VGA signal displayable on a LCD. My only experience with LCD TV is the Samsung 2032MW I'm talking about in this thread. In my opinion, its scan-doubler is too bad for anything else than watching movies/television and word processing. So if you want your Amiga to look like an Amiga, then you have two solutions : either finding a better TV, or use a good external scan doubler between your Amiga and the monitor (in that case the monitor must meet the requirements of the scan doubler instead of the Amiga). Hodgkinson has just showed me a video that compares the Samsung to a Sony KDL-26U2000 LCD TV : although the result on the Sony is worse than on a CRT TV or monitor, it is much better than the Samsung.
2. To my knowledge, SCART is the best solution indeed. Component may be an alternative, but as I'm not a specialist somebody else should answer you. According to Hodgkinson, the SCART cable from AmigaKit will do the job. At http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2449, he posted some more information. An external scan doubler may impose a particular format. In any case, don't use Composite or Aerial if you want the best quality.
3. I believe that picture quality will always be worse, unless you manage to find a perfect LCD TV, but even in that case pixel upscaling would bring you a worse result. On my Samsung, everything is bad : animation, colors and upscaling.
4. Any LCD TV will accept the default Amiga screen modes which are used in a default Workbench and most games. If you want to connect your Amiga through a VGA (D-Sub) input only, then the LCD must accept 15 KHz through the VGA input indeed. If you use an external scan-doubler, then you don't need 15 KHz, but the monitor must meet the scan doubler's other requirements.
LG monitors are probably better than my Samsung, but I cannot assure you of that.
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Quotes from emails to Samsung (As there doesn't seem to be anything that would prevent me from uploading this info...):
My message
Hello,
Please see the attached files for a video of the previously described problem. Also attached is a photograph of the setup, two more photos showing the screen settings used for the video, and a txt document with a few notes relating to the equipment in the setup.
As the video shows, especially in the interlaced ('laced') mode, the monitor exhibits a fogging, ghosting-like appearance behind any moving object on the screen, and often objects may appear to flicker when they cease moving across the screen. As you can imagine; when the monitor’s RGB capability is being used to display a computer desktop image the flicker and fogging effects are quite noticeable.
The computer equipment used to create the display is a Commodore Amiga A1200 computer, which was originally designed for the video industry, and as a result the RGB output is known by many users for its' crisp sharp quality and smooth, judder-free scrolling.
Samsung reply
Thankyou for your email.
Unfortunately at the time in which the Amiga personal computer was released the technology was not designed in a way to allow for future proofing of this standard, this screen being LCD/TFT will produce a slight distortion in the way shown in the movie. even on the average PC this will happen to a very small degree but due to the limitations of the Amiga used this may be even more so. Unfortunately there would be no way to resolve this as it is more an issue of compatability between the equipment you are using.
OK, I probably shot myself in the foot by mentioning the Amiga :horse: but it doesn't help not letting them know what the equipment is, and besides they probably would of asked what the equipment was at some point anyway.
Im going to make the files that I sent to Samsung available online in a short while.
Hodgkinson.
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Files now online here. (http://www.booni.info/downloads/Samsung.ZIP)
Hodgkinson.
EDIT: Link edit...New web page and im not sure what im going to do with it... :insane:
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@Hodgkinson
As a point of info for others : The Samsung.ZIP is 25 Megabytes in size.
I very much appreciate all of the information in this thread. My conclusion is that LCD is a bleeding edge technology for Classic Amigas. No LCD solution compares favorably with CRTs as of 2008-03-23.
Would you all state why you subject your Amiga experience to other than CRTs?
ggw
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@Phantom
You Signature mentions CyberVision64 CD, so I turn my attention to you.
I am looking for the specifications of the CyberVision3D. If this is easily supplied I would be grateful.
Are CyberVision3D and CyberVision64 3D the same?
Does this discussion of LCD's poor performance with Classic Amigas also apply to LCD's connected to the CyberVision?
ggw
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Would you all state why you subject your Amiga experience to other than CRTs?
-Uni (Lack of space, LCD needed anyway)
-Don't have any 15Khz monitors
-Can't fit/don't have spare scandoubler
-Don't have Gfx card (A1200D)
-Current VGA monitor is only 15"
-Nuisance of having to have a spare TV hooked up for 15Khz screenmodes
-And probably one or two other reasons...
As a point of info for others : The Samsung.ZIP is 25 Megabytes in size.
Oh yeah, thanks. I tried to shrink it using other formats since with the original AVI's it would of been >100MB !
Hodgkinson.
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@Hodgkinson
1. Uni (Lack of space, LCD needed anyway)
Uni?
LCD required?
2. Don't have any 15Khz monitors
How does LCD solve this? I thought they don't do 15KHz.
3. Can't fit/don't have spare scandoubler
So LCD has built in scandoubler? or in some way LCD avoids interleave flicker but nature of LCD?
4. Don't have Gfx card (A1200D)
Good reason.
5. Current VGA monitor is only 15"
Very good reason.
6. Nuisance of having to have a spare TV hooked up for 15Khz screenmodes.
Same as #2 above?
7. And probably one or two other reasons...
Please add them as they come to you. I value your input.
ggw
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1. Current PC monitor is a 21" Sony Trinitron (As opposed to the A1200D with the 15") with a dying brightness control EPROM that needs regular hacking with some feedback resistors to bring the brighness back right again.
Due to it's sheer size, there's no way that it'll fit on the accomodation desk - It'll probably flatten it!
2&3&6. The 2032MW Samsung, as reviewed here, has a RGB 15Khz SCART input...
Other points - The 2032MW has a built in tuner, so it'll also work as a TV, and similarly with the SCART it can be used with a VCR.
So one monitor => PC, Amiga and TV. Oh and more than one at a time with PIP.
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@Hodgkinson
So #1, it would be fair to say, is truly a foot-print issue, both weight and size? I still don't know to what "Uni" refers, what did that mean?
With one device (which happens to be this model of LCD) you :
o reduce the depth required, giving you more room in front of the monitor, and
o worries about the effects of weight on your desk +
o effort (and dangers) of moving heavy things by reaching are significantly reduced
2 Fewer monitors are required for the specialized need of 15KHz for the boot screen (the only truly required need) since this model supports 15KHz
You included #3 in your reply, but didn't address the "interleave" flicker. How does LCD avoid this?
#6 can be dropped as it is covered by #2.
I know nothing of SCART, so I go now to read about it where ever Google leads me.
Thanks
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"Uni" means "I soon go to university and, you know, I want to seduce girls".
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@gwyche
LCD displays are better than CRT displays in many important respects : that's the only reason why I wanted to abandon CRT. However, until I find an LCD that gives better results through the video (15 KHz) inputs, I will go on using LCDs with VGA (31 KHz) computers only, and CRTs for 15 KHz appliances.
Any LCD monitor that works well with today computers should work well with Amiga graphic cards such as the Cybervision, as they use VGA (31 KHz) screen modes like today computers. Our discussion only concerns the 15 KHz screen modes. But on some (if not all) monitors, some animation problems may arise too when 15 KHz PAL modes go through an external scan doubler to the VGA input, because the native refresh rate of LCD displays is 60 Hz, not 50 Hz (and most don't accept 50 Hz through the VGA input anyway).
To my knowledge any LCD TV supports 15 KHz screen modes, as analog TV broadcasting standards use 15 KHz. Not all LCD displays do however - when they don't we call them "monitors" instead of TV.
So yes, LCD TVs have a built-in scan doubler, which is probably responsible for the problems we describe.
I don't understand what you mean by "interleave" flicker.
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@arkpandora
Good luck with your Uni goals.
Thanks for the clarification.
By flicker I meant the action that occurs for which "flicker-fixer" hardware for the Classic Amiga was made.
Many people find that the time that the CRT electron gun takes to write the screen is seen as a flicker, specially when you dart your the focus of your eyes from one place to another. It is "doubly" bad when the interlace mode is not present many lines have to be drawn.
The more lines, the more time it takes to traverse them all.
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I have another question.
No one on these threads talks about a "driver" program for these LCD monitors.
A member of our Amiga Club went to a sales place to buy an LCD to work with his CyberVision3D. His 1st purchase stayed black no matter what, so he took it back and was referred to the manager. The manager claimed to have owned an Amiga2000 a long time ago. He said that all of the LCD monitors (that they had?) required "drivers" and that he knew that no drivers were made by the manufacturers that would run on an Amiga. He suggested that our club member might look on the internet for a 3rd party driver.
What is that about?
ggw
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@arkpandora: :roflmao:
University accommodation flats aren’t exactly overly-spacious, and desk space can be somewhat limited. Most people just have a laptop and a printer, but as I want to take my medium-sized XP tower, and hopefully my main A1200D, I’m going to need a new, space saving monitor. Hence the reason for the LCD due to space.
Hopefully I'll get a room somewhere high in the block (Good for any Amateur Radio stuff that my dad wants to do), so imagine carrying this (http://www.nvnews.net/reviews/prolink_gf3_ti200/sony_e500.jpg) up all those stairs!
Re drivers, the 2032MW can have special drivers installed on the PC just for the monitor, but I didn’t notice any major difference between having the drivers installed and not having them installed, apart from the display options box now showing the correct monitor.
I've not tried it on my A1200D with DblPAL via VGA yet...
As for 15Khz, I find many games revert to a 15Khz screen, so having a monitor that can handle them is a big bonus.
SCART is a bit like a higher quality version of composite or SVideo, with seperate RGB lines and Sync rails. Since you amiga isn't having to encode to composite, then your monitor decode to RGB, there's a big increase in display quality over other traditional "TV" modes. (Albeit for some reason, the 2032MW doesn't support VGA with PIP SCART input, so im going to have to have to composite connected up specially for PIP...)
Oh. There seems to be a fine line between what is classed as a LCD monitor, that supports TV-Style inputs, and a LCD TV, that supports monitor-style inputs. Maybe im just over-complicating things, but I should imagine that it makes a big difference over the performance of the unit when being used for different roles.
EDIT: Interleave flicker - None noticible on the 2032MW with a static screen.
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@gwyche
University is a past concern for me (girls are not yet hopefully).
The Samsung 2032MW's scan doubler is a flicker-fixer as well, so that interlaced PAL screens don't flicker as a whole. But on my copy the result is so bad that I find a flickering screen more natural and pleasant ; you can preview this result in Hodgkinson's video. Not all LCD TVs have a flicker fixer obviously.
A driver is not required even on the Amiga, unless you can't manage to make your computer display the right screen mode. If the screen stays black, then one has to try another screen mode. Or it means that the monitor is unable to display the computer's screen mode(s), in which case drivers won't change anything. I think that today monitors have some sort of ROM that contains the informations that in the past you had to give the computer in the form of a driver ; if your setup is recent enough, the computer should be able to detect these informations.
Before you ask : "PIP" means "Picture in Picture", a special mode some TV/monitors are equipped with, which allows a video input to be shown in a window over the VGA input.
@Hodgkinson
That's right : maybe LCD "TV" that are not marketed as "monitors" have better video inputs and worse VGA inputs than the others, and vice versa. Then I have to give up the hope of having only one - and reasonably small - screen on my desk.
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@ arkpandora
Sorry to be dense, but if the screen stays black how can you do ANYTHING?
I was not with this guy when he tried to hook it up to his A3000 with Cybervision3D. I take him at his word. Stayed black. Hmmm. I assume that even if you don't connect it to anything at all, that some box, at least, shows up saying "No Signal Detected" or the like.
I suppose I could take my CRT over to his house (he lives about 20Km away) so we could set some trial resolution, then switch over to the LCD and see if it works. Keep trying different ones.
Oh yes, he emailed today to say that the one he got (and returned already!) was
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a Samsung Model 2253BW 22" LCD with 8000 to 1 contrast ratio, 2ms response time, 1680 x 1050 resolution, and VGA + DVI.
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ggw
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@ Hodgkinson
This behemoth (http://www.io.com/~cjwyche/2008/20080324/20080324SunMonitor107.jpg) is what I have lugged more than I have ever wanted to. I'm
glad it finally got soooooo dim I begged for a replacement (only to get another gigantic CRT, not quite as heavy).
You shame me with your willingness to make internal changes to resistors to keep the contrast useful on your CRTs at home.
My mentor counciled me to NEVER work on CRT (TVs), because I would be inundated with TV problems from people (friends!). He said it was like owning a pickup truck.
I think I have enough information to begin weeding through the LCD monitor/TV offerings here in Austin, TX.
ggw
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:pint: :lol:
Re the huge Sony I mentioned, we've only persevered with it because we got the monitor free (And the fault came with it free as well...).
Apart from that its one of the largest (Screen size, not sheer bulk) and highest quality monitors that we have :-D
Oh, im and my dad's worked in the TV trade for some years, so that kinda helps.
We've just scrapped off 5 older 13"/15" CRT monitors the other day, most in working condition, due to the sheer lack of space in the garage. Another 3 to go still...If anyone in the UK wants one for parts be my guest. Just Pmail me and pick them up (Some have dry joints, etc, others work fine).
Hodgkinson.
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@gwyche
Well, if the screen stays black, definitely you can't do anything, including installing drivers, so that drivers don't make a difference. However, if you have a spare monitor that works, you may select other screen modes then try them on the black monitor. If no standard screen mode works (a 31 KHz 60 Hz 640x400 or 800x600 screen mode should always work), then a driver may be useful, since it would select compatible screen modes for you. But if no standard screen mode works, it probably means that the monitor is not compatible with the computer for some reason, and probably a driver would not help.
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@ arkpandora
A reasonable summation of the situation.
Thanks.
For closure I'll report back if he ever gets a LCD to work.
ggw
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Re the Samsung 2032MW, i've just noticed that, occasionally, maybe once an hour or so, the monitor seems to loose sync for a split second. I’m still using SCART RGB and Super-High res interlaced PAL, and the loss-of-sync was noticed with a completely static WB screen.
Just wondered if anyone else might have noticed this?
Hodgkinson.
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Just wondered if anyone else might have noticed this?
Your British phlegm is adorable. Well, you're just adding another flaw on top of the pile.
My computer shop has given me my Samsung back, saying that in their opinion every problem is normal so that Samsung would probably not accept any exchange, and that I shouldn't have ordered such a bad monitor.
OK, following your example, I will stay calm, give this piece of TV to my little sister, and find something else (but not before trying the PIP through SCART - I will let you know).
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I've just uploaded a photo of my attempt at making a really decent pair of composite and RF leads. They might show up in a hour or so.
EDIT: Ah ha. Its online here. (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2480=13)
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@ Hodgkinson
Bravo! Good piece of work.
I can imagine what an attempt on my part to make such a beautifully constructed cable would look like!
ggw
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@ arkpandora
Showing my provincialism here, I nearly sputtered my beer out my nose in laughter when I read your opening statement.
In these parts (Austin, TX) phlegm is the crud you cough up when you have had a bad cold!
My better educated wife alerted me to your meaning... before I reached the clarifying 3rd paragraph.
I definitely will not allow our club member to get a 2032.
ggw
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It means the same here, too.
I had to check in a online dictionary to find the true meaning. And im British :crazy:
On that basis, thanks for the kind comment arkpandora!
Hodgkinson.
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Funny misunderstanding : I had forgotten this medical meaning although both are linked by the same word in my native French too. But in French this meaning is less common than the other, as we more often refer to the British than the latter to themselves.
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Hello folks, long time no post!
I bought a Samsung monitor from Woolworths just over a year ago and VGA, SCART and composite were all rubbish in native Amiga modes. This is not the Microvitec-substitute of the LCD world.
In fact, I have never come across an LCD monitor worth using on PAL/NTSC screenmodes - surely this can't be that hard for manufacturers such as Philips/NEC?
I think probably the crispest display for OCS/ECS/AGA Amiga owners will still be the Microvitec 1437/1564/1701 CRT monitors.
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Hi,
Thanks for this information.
Which Amiga screen modes have you tested in VGA ? Can you tell what is wrong with them ? Doesn't VGA at least give better results than SCART ?
If the Microvitec monitors are the best video CRT monitors, nevertheless I have to note that to my knowledge _any_ common video CRT monitor will give incomparably superior picture than a Samsung 2032MW LCD monitor through SCART. And I don't even take the resolution upscaling into consideration.
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I just fired up Term 4.7 today and whoa, the 2032MW really doesn't like it in the current screen mode (PAL Interlaced SCART). The sync is completely messed up - The screen is jumping around all over the place and seems to have a tendency to sit half-way across the screen, with the frame blank in the middle. As for composite it’s stable, but the frame blank is still in the middle of the screen and it’s accompanied by a rainbow pattern at the edges of the frame blank and flashing diagonal lines. The RF mode may as well as be white noise.
Might just be Term, but Term worked fine on the 15" PC CRT I used to use (Multiscan Productivity, 640 x ? screen size)
If someone else could try Term out (From Aminet) on a 2032MW I’d be interested to hear what it looks like.
Hodgkinson.
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Still using this horrible thing ? ;-)
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Yup ;-) Actually I've barely used it so far.
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I finally did a test with my 2032mw to see the SCART input from my Amiga and I must agree with arkpandora that it's bad! While VGA works like a charm and non-native resolution adaptation is very good, SCART input is not.
I'm going to try a NeoBitz S-Video module with my 4000 if I can get one!
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Correct me if I’m wrong here, but one of the biggest problems seems to be (From what I can see) is the in-built interpolation for movement of an image. If it were turned off, the display would be reasonable, but since it cannot be turned off by the user it results in any moving object on a uniform background taking on a ghostly, shimmering appearance...
Hodgkinson.
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That and the slightly dark picture; even on full brightness the white isn't quite white.
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@Flashlab
Thank you for your evidence.
non-native resolution adaptation is very good
As I said earlier, the monitor is unable to recognize the resolution of a Philips CDI console for example : it scales it down.
@Hodgkinson
I'm not a computer specialist, but as discussed before it seems to me that it is not interpolation which is at fault, but the scan-doubler, as animation in non-native VGA modes is normal.
any moving object on a uniform background taking on a ghostly, shimmering appearance
... among other problems, which destroy 2D animation. And colours are bad as well. So to my knowledge this monitor's video inputs are only usable for cheap television or movies, and maybe 3D games if the console doesn't use 2D animation at all (as for me even the Amiga mouse pointer is unbearable on this monitor).
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With non-native resolution adaption I mean resolutions like 640x480, 800x600 etc. are nicely displayed without blocky and unevenly spread pixels like you see on some other LCD screens.
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Sorry, I didn't realize you were only considering VGA screen modes : then I agree.