Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Ral-Clan on January 13, 2008, 03:19:26 PM
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What is the best way to render an animation created in an Amiga to a modern format (i.e. ultimately MPEG2 or DVD).
What I would like to do is create video animations using DPaint, ImageFX and Aladdin4D.
Then I need some way to distribute these on DVD.
There are products for the Amiga (i.e. DPS PAR Zorro Card). Which will allow you to output the Amiga's video to an external video recorder (like a DVD recorder).
But I'm wondering if in today's day and age, it would be better to just put all the frames of the animation in a directory, and have an application (on the Amiga or PC) render the frames into MPEG2 video which can then be burned onto DVD.
Something tells me the second way would result in higher quality rather than real-time recording.
But I'm just wondering if this is in fact is do-able and what software can do it (on the Amiga or PC)?
The reason I ask is that I know where I can get a PAR (Personal Animation Recorder card) but don't know if I should spend the money when MPEG rendering might be the way to go.
I should note that I have an A2000 with B&W composite output so that's not an option. I do have an A520 RF adaptor for the RGB port, but the quality is not up to professional standards (unless someone knows of a S-VIDEO hack for the NTSC version - I've only seen the PAL version hack).
Recommendations?
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If you want to use MPEG/DIVX etc which are not animation formats, but video formats I'd just run them in UAE and use UAE to record them.
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If you want to use MPEG/DIVX etc which are not animation formats, but video formats I'd just run them in UAE and use UAE to record them.
Yes, I understand that that MPEG/DIVX are video formats. But ultimately, Amiga animation creators have to get their .anims out to the "real" world in a video format useable in the "industry". This means either recording it straight to an external video recorder (VHS, U-Matic, BetaCAM in the old days - today a DVD recorder or as a digital video file like MPEG2 or .AVI, etc.)
It's quite possible to render Amiga animations to MPEG-1 video using a variety of Amiga software (ImageFX, or others). Generally you separate the ANIM into its individual frames, then run it through such an application which assembles the frames into an MPEG-1 video.
However, MPEG-1 is limited to VCD resolutions (I think). So I was wondering about MPEG-2 rendering solutions. Once the animation is rendered as an MPEG-2 video, I can burn it to DVD, as that is the native video format of DVD.
But the problem is that I don't know if there are any Amiga apps that render MPEG-2 video. So I was asking. Alternatively, I can burn the individual frames of any Amiga animation to CD-R, and use a PC program to assemble them to a digital video file (MPEG-2, etc.) if anyone can recommend one (preferably freeware!).
Recording from UAE is sort of a hack, and the real-time recording of an MPEG-2 video (or DIVX or whatever) is usually inferior to frame-by-frame rendering of the video file. With real-time MPEG-2 recording, the software & hardware doesn't have a lot of time to analyse the frames. With non-real time MPEG-2 rendering (like professional DVD authoring places use), the individual frames are analysed one by one, compared to the frames coming before and after, and the most optimal compression is used for best image quality in the assembled video.
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Obviously you re-encode the saved avi.
If you're worried about quality, choose "Full Frames (Uncompressed)".
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Piru wrote:
Obviously you re-encode the saved avi.
If you're worried about quality, choose "Full Frames (Uncompressed)".
Yes, obviously.
But that doesn't answer what I was asking. I'm looking for the best method of transferring Amiga animations to MPEG2 video. The UAE method you guys are suggesting is real-time video encoding (inferior) and then transcoding to another format (another degradation).
I was wondering if there was any MPEG2 encoders for Amiga, or a good shareware/freeware one on PC that would take a series of still images (making up an animation) and encode it to an MPEG2 video file.
Or barring that, I was looking for some feedback from DPS PAR users, or anyone else who had used methods to convert Amiga anims to digital video formats.
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The UAE method you guys are suggesting is real-time video encoding (inferior) and then transcoding to another format (another degradation).
"Full Frames (Uncompressed)" is lossless.
You then encode the video to whatever format you like. This is not real-time video encoding. The level of "degradation" depends directly on the encoding options you choose.
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Okay, that's great. Seems like buying a hardware solution, etc. etc. is not necessary, due the many software solutions available, including this UAE method.
Now, if UAE runs perfectly smoothly, (i.e. no skipped frames, good timing), everything should work.
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I would render/output separate, individual frames at either PAL/NTSC resolution, in 24bit.
Then use software on the PC (e.g. VirtualDub) to combine all of the frames into an AVI (use a lossless compression codec, such as Lagarith), before finally converting the video to MPEG2 with your favourite encoder.
Good luck!
Cheers,
James
x
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Thanks! Someone on the ImageFX forum also told me that VirtualDub could assemble video from individual frames. That is great news, as I already have the program (but did not know of this feature).
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As a sidenote, for doing this on a Mac, you can use Quicktime Pro to assemble a series of frames into a movie.
Then you can take this movie, and transcode it for .dv, and bring it into Final Cut (Express|Pro), or iMovie.
I've done this many times, works really well for me. (Visual Hub does a nice job of transcoding various formats to .DV for editing as well... which I believe is based on the ffmpeg library.
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Avidemux2 is also a great tool for this task.
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Hi,
I've done as follows:
1- I've installed 'Amiga Forever' (www.amigaforever.com)on my pc, and RTFM!
2- connected my A4000 to the pc: nullmodem cable between serial ports of A4000 and pc,
3- in windows explorer I could see my A4000 with all partitions and directories. I then moved the content of my "Work"-partition to the pc. It took about 2 hours to finish this operation!
4- installed 'Pro Motion' (http://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/index.php). Ik looks like DPaint and it can read amiga files like the animations I've have imported, see 3.
5- saved all animation files as avi, divx.
Hope it will work for you all!
Superfer
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yorgle wrote:
As a sidenote, for doing this on a Mac, you can use Quicktime Pro to assemble a series of frames into a movie.
The Windows version of Quicktime Pro can do this too. I use it at work to assemble frame sequences into movies. It's a good deal at $30.
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Hi,
I've also tryed Avidemux2 but it won't read .anim files, how did you do that?
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I did something similar a way back. I split the amin into separate images, transferred them to a PC, and used Jasc Animation shop to re-assemble the files into an AVI-file.
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At work I have to use multiple packages to create effects and graphics - a couple of the packages I use, mainly Proanimator for 3d treatments on logos, has some quirks in how it exports - so I have to export it as a series of TGA files.
When I import these into my Avid, there's a feature which will assemble sequentially named graphic files into moving video automatically.
This feature is pretty universal across their software - I've used it on my home setup running Avid Xpress, as well as work where I use a much higher end system.
I think Avid Free DV can do this as well, although last time I saw it you could only export to a video file, which is no big deal as you can export it to lossless quicktime with quicktime pro.
On an XPress system you could cut it to the tape system of your choice.
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@ral-clan
Quote:
There are products for the Amiga (i.e. DPS PAR Zorro Card). Which will allow you to output the Amiga's video to an external video recorder (like a DVD recorder).
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Definitely DONT do that....you would lose Quality.
The BEST and simplest way is to get a DVD recorder (Standalone) and just press record in the High Quality mode..............thats it! Trust me you wont notice the difference.
a Slightly better way would be to get a Cheap SONY Digital8 camera with S-Video inputs and get a S-Video genlock and output it to the Cameras VCR mode..............once you record it, you will have an excellent master...........then you can transfer it through FireWire to a Mac or PC.
There is NO easier way than this.
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leirbag28 wrote:
@ral-clan
The BEST and simplest way is to get a DVD recorder (Standalone) and just press record in the High Quality mode..............thats it! Trust me you wont notice the difference.
I've got a DVD recorder, and have considered using this method. But I've not found an easy way to rip video off DVDs for editing in desktop video software (like Windows Movie Maker). Is there an easy way to rip video straight from DVD to AVI or something without ending up with segments or VOBS or some such convoluted thing?
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a Slightly better way would be to get a Cheap SONY Digital8 camera with S-Video inputs and get a S-Video genlock and output it to the Cameras VCR mode..............
But... You don't have DVD recorder with RGB input like in Europe ?? Even Philips build some !
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I have been researching for a similar option for my Video Toaster and later when I purchase Flyerboard. One thing to note is the pixels on the Amiga are rectangle as opposed to the traditional square pixel format on the PC. I not sure about the Amiga PAR card any more (I used to own one.) I think This might help in the conversion to modern video such as MPEG2/DVD.
I was recently looking at a Sony D155 DVD recorder that retailed for $180 US dollars. A very nice unit, I believe it includes S-Video input as well as component, composit and a Firewire port.
The main point however is that with the S-video input being an Analog signal which is probably converted to digital on the fly; the recorder probably makes the conversion adjustment anyway. NTSC Analog and NTSC standard digital DVD still have the 720x480 pixel ratio. If I remember right The Amiga-PAR has 720X480 too. I will send the specs of this DVD Recorder in my next posting.
Meanwhile post your question here on the Newtek Amiga Video Toaster forum. They have a lot of good input on these exact kind of issues. I have seen similar discussions on this subject and Amiga owners getting very good results out putting to DVD. Even scaling up to HDTV screens. Many Toaster users have used PAR cards with there Toasters over the years too:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47
:-) :-) :-) :idea: :idea:
Amiga owner since 1992
A2000 with Derringer Platinum 030-50 mhz/68882 math coprocessor 50mhz, 18 megs ram
Data Flyer SCCI/IDE combo controller 400 meg SCSI HD
Video Toaster 4000
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Your best bet is to render individual frames to disk, as you thought. There are a few reasons for this.
First and foremost is that there's no additional hardware required :D
If for any reason you had a system failure in the middle of the rendering process (power failure, etc), you can simply pick up and continue rendering from where the failure occurred; if a failure occurred while outputting to a video format, you would have to start the output process over from the beginning...not happy if you're at the 99% mark after 10 hours of render ;)
By outputting to individual frames, you have multiple re-targeting options. You can use a batch-conversion utility (such as irfan) to convert your source images to your desired format. For example, I'll often bring frame anims into Maya for effects work or as a backplate for other animation; I'd convert the source images to .iff, TIF, or TGA format.
Another benefit of batch processing individual frames is the ability to process multiple tweaks, such as color correction, chromakeying/rotoscoping, sharpening/desharpening, and, maybe most importantly, pixel aspect ration correction/compression.
After outputting an frame archive, any number of utilities can be used to assemble the frames into an animated video, in any of several formats. As mentioned, VirtualDub is perfect for the job.
Just a couple of reasons there, but I hope they show that frame-based output is safer, easier, and much more robust pipeline than outputting directly to video formats.
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Dear Friend:
Use the pc version of aladdin 4d (Thru winuae)which comes included with aladdin 5. Then use the pc format to render the whole animation as single frames, then you can assemble the animation and save using the pc/pc tools.
Cheers!!!
rednova
-mobilis in mobile-
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rednova wrote:
Dear Friend:
Use the pc version of aladdin 4d (Thru winuae)which comes included with aladdin 5. Then use the pc format to render the whole animation as single frames, then you can assemble the animation and save using the pc/pc tools.
Cheers!!!
rednova
-mobilis in mobile-
Did I read that right? Alladin 5 for PC includes Alladin 4d for amiga?
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Seeing as Aladdin was only just bought out by Discreet FX from Nova Design in January, I dont' see how they could have made a PC port already.
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ral-clan wrote:
It's quite possible to render Amiga animations to MPEG-1 video using a variety of Amiga software ...
But the problem is that I don't know if there are any Amiga apps that render MPEG-2 video. So I was asking.
And it doesn't seem to be answered yet. It's just a different, but more CPU-intensive, encoding. So as you said, are there any Amiga apps that render MPEG-2 video? :-?
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ral-clan wrote:
What is the best way to render an animation created in an Amiga to a modern format (i.e. ultimately MPEG2 or DVD).
--snip--
I should note that I have an A2000 with B&W composite output so that's not an option. I do have an A520 RF adaptor for the RGB port, but the quality is not up to professional standards (unless someone knows of a S-VIDEO hack for the NTSC version - I've only seen the PAL version hack).
Recommendations?
I use this hack (http://members.iinet.net.au/~davem2/overclock/a520.html) for any NTSC Amiga with no troubles at all! The quality is just "good enough" (nothing like 1080i, of course). But works even for Eric Schwartz... ;-)
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rkauer wrote: I use this hack (http://members.iinet.net.au/~davem2/overclock/a520.html) for any NTSC Amiga with no troubles at all! The quality is just "good enough" (nothing like 1080i, of course). But works even for Eric Schwartz... ;-)
That page says the hack is only for PAL A520s. I've seen some discussions by the author and he states hasn't done the NTSC hack yet.
Are you sure you have an NTSC Amiga? You're posting from Brazil, where they use PAL-M, as I understand.
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ral-clan wrote:
That page says the hack is only for PAL A520s. I've seen some discussions by the author and he states hasn't done the NTSC hack yet.
I believe the PAL and NTSC A520 use a different circuit board. I've never seen a PAL A520, but I did have a PAL A1200, and the video circuitry was completely different from my NTSC A1200, not a matter switching a few components.