Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: MarkTime on July 21, 2003, 07:35:29 PM
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OK, the piracy discussion doesn't appear to be producing anything new, so lets discuss a bit of strategy.
I personally believe the MorphOS team should release MorphOS for AmigaONE, and that this will actually help sales of Pegasos.
OK, first I think I understand why there is a belief it could hurt sales....after all if the AmigaONE is the only board that can run both OS 4 and MorphOS, then, that adds value to that solution.
On the other hand, in the absence of OS 4, I think AmigaONE owners would much rather run MorphOS than Linux (we aren't usually big Linux fans here, eh?).
In the long run is MorphOS captured the marketshare and hearts of Amigans, then the Pegasos, with its lower price point and elegant design, could very well benefit from MorphOS's popularity, and it would drive sales of the Pegasos?
Oh I know, I'm just a bystander, but if it were me, I'd release MorphOS for AmigaONE, and make it a priority...
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Oh no not again :-D
.. But what I have learned from past half a year, they tell, MorphOS is buggy, in beta stage, lacks features etc. etc.
Why would any selfrespecting AmigaOne owner want it when they have OS4 ?
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...Really soon?
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Well, speaking as an AmigaONE owner, i'd like to have MorphOS on here, even though i'm really looking forward to OS4.
Doesn't really bother me too much though; I plan to get a Pegasos, too :-D
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@hooligan
lol...well maybe they just can't admit it, that they want it, or don't know they want it.
but seriously, I wouldn't listen to users (in fact, I understand, that I'm recommending that you don't even listen to me!, lol)....
users don't know what they want, they think they want something....but who knows. I would think they would love to run MorphOS over linux, even if they love to criticize it, in its absence.
I wonder something else too, i will put to all PPC linux ppl....do you like it? I mean did you plan to go OS 4 only at first, but now you suspect you'll be dual booting, even after OS 4?
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Well, I think MorphOS looks great, and so does AROS. I can't wait till I have future versions of all 3 on my desktop :-D
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@Xeron:
Vote of confidence for AROS noted, I am sure Matt would be pleased to see someone say it too :¬)
@Marktime:
I see two threads of you being corrected was not enough, now we need a third so you can pontificate on piracy some more? Or are you HONESTLY (you like that word I know) going to discuss whether MorphOS ought to be ported?
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I am sure most of the ones running A1 with Linux would be very satisfied with MOS, but lets face it: there is lots of hatred and prejudice towards it.
That said, I would also like to run OS4 on my Peggie. Reason 1, it should be in more advanced stage than MOS1.3.. on the other hand in a week we will know where the current development of MorphOS actually is.
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@Gaidheal
Well, I don't know about confidence. At the moment, i'm rooting for OS4, and if OS4 lives up to its featurelist, it'll be my main OS for sure, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to play with AROS too :-D
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Using it at all is a vote of confidence, in my book :¬)
If it lives up to my expectations (and I do of course have a large part to play in that!) it should become my main OS. But I am likely to use NT5 for a long while to come yet, even with AROS as my preferred platform.
I hope AOS4 meets your needs as well as you would like.
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Technically MorphOS should run on an A1 without much change. You'd have to reflash the A1 to use OpenFirmware though. It wouldn't be too hard to write a boot image for UBoot, but don't expect the MOS team to do it - they're always far too busy.
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Hardware running both OSes will win. System running on both platforms will have more software.
Reasons: by buying hardware that runs both systems you can access all the software.
By making software for system running on both platforms you can get away with one version.
In case you ask it would be A1 + MOS.
But besides software availability there is a price. Pegasos is cheaper, therefore its likely that A1 users instead of upgrading would switch to Peg (unless they are excentric or fanatic :)
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@Gaidheal
If you think your rude, illiterate responses are going to have any impact on my posting habits, then you haven't been paying attention.
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I dont think MorphOS for AmigaOne's would work, because the MorphOS team believe the bugs are in the Artica, whereas Hyperion believe the bugs are elsewhere and are in the process of fixing them. This is not a MorphOS slander. I'm just saying, they will have the same problems with the A1 that they had with the BETATESTER because I dont think they know where the bugs are in the Artica based systems. Again, this not a MorphOS slander, please dont be upset with me, I'm not trying to start a flame war.
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@Marktime:
Rude? Matter of opinion.
Illiterate? LOL LOL LOL I actually choked laughing at this one.. nuff said :-D
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Gaidheal wrote:
@Xeron:
Vote of confidence for AROS noted, I am sure Matt would be pleased to see someone say it too :¬)
Aye :-)
I too hope that we can have all three to play with. My dream would be for each one to implement features which cause the other ones to improve, thus creating a massive improvemnt cycle!!!!
Nothing drives improvments faster than competition... except maybe money, but there's not a lot of that floating around the Amiga Comunity.
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This is an excellent idea! If Pegasos boards aren't going to have OS4 on them any time in the distant future, why not allow the AmigaOne systems to run MorphOS so people can do a real side by side comparison of the two paths. One problem though, by the time MorphOS is finished for marketing purposes, it would be all for not as OS4 is pending release. Personally I can't see MorphOS as a finished product until Ambient is running as it should. That's my view on it though, take it as you will.
:pint:
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The problem is that if OS4 is available for Pegasos then Eyetech is out of business. Nobody is going to pay almost twice the money for (in my opinion) inferior hardware to do the same job. For this reason there is no way that you will "officially" see OS4 on the Pegasos. Unofficially, of course, is a different matter.
The only reason people are buying A1's is that they want to run OS4. Take away that reason and its bye bye Eyetech.
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because I dont think they know where the bugs are in the Artica based systems
Of course they know where they are or else they wouldn't have been able to tell Mai how to fix them, or known how to create the April fix to bypass the problems.
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Since they don't make any money from MorphOS I don't think they see it as worth the effort and cost to do it. I don't think they gain much by it, it would only open them up to more competition from the A1 since they now run the same OS (Eyetech could potentially steal pegasos/morphos customers by undercutting their prices).
I also think there's so much bad blood between the two "factions" now so MorphOS for A1 would be like a sign of defeat for them now.
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Casper wrote:
I also think there's so much bad blood between the two "factions" now so MorphOS for A1 would be like a sign of defeat for them now.
Defeat or Wake Up Call?
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i for one would like to see morphOS on Amiga.I think
it might benefit Genesi and a lot of new users would
be able to get the feel for the OS.Having used Amigas
for quite some years and somthing iam familiar with.
To make the change i really would like to see it in
action and iam not willing to spend money on a pegasos .with MorphOS being free which is a major + in my book :-) but then again Genesi could be shooting
them self in the foot because there be no need to buy
a pegasos.Did i hear somewhere they where porting
it to Apple Mac -look nice on an IMac
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Eyetech and Hyperion have to pay license fees + expenses, while Genesi only has to deal with expenses. Money wise Genesi is the winner, however Eyetech and Hyperion has a name, which cannot be underestimated.
I see both OS-es only slighly different solutions of the same goal.
There are some questions though.
If it wasn't for AmigaOS4, would anyone purchase the AmigaONE just because the Amiga name? I doubt that. Eyetech depends on Hyperion not to make AmigaOS4 available for the Pegasos.
Having AmigaOS4 and MorphOS available on both platform with the current pricing - someone is deep in the water. Why all this won't happen? It's because Amiga Inc - to whom (I presume) a major part of license fees go.
Concerning MorphOS we have to face 2 important facts (both sides): circumstances given, in case of an agreement, it could have been _the_ new AmigaOS. That is one important fact to note. The other, not less important fact to note is: regardless of that, it isn't.
Having MorphOS for the AmigaONE means more MorphOS users, and less Pegasos users. Pegasos sales mean money to Genesi. Free MorphOS sales are not.
The only way I see it as a viable solution: having a commercial version of MorphOS available for AmigaONE owners for a specified price. (Something close to OS4 prices)
One question remains though - will it be enough compensation for them being generous and sharing their product (the major selling point for the Pegasos) with the "other" side?
Genesi is majorly a hardware company. The question is almost the same as for Eyetech - (putting Amiga Inc aside for a moment) - would Eyetech agree with having a commercial version of OS4 available for the Pegasos? I doubt that.
I am not CEO of any of the entities above. So reality check may show the problem can be solved - or not, we will see.
Sorry for the long post and my english :-)
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Sorry for your English?? You write better than most native English speakers do. :-)
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I agree MorphOS should be made for the AmigaOne.
Not as a free product of course but as a software solution. Price the CDROM at about a hundred bucks or so.
I also think Genesi missed the boat by not licensing AmigaOS for the Pegasos boards. Hyperion does not really care who they make the OS for. They just want to sell copies of the OS.
They have stated repeatedly a willingness to develope for the Pegasos board.
Bill Buck just needs to trank dart Frank. :) And talk to Hyperion. Hyperion would just need some infomation on the Specifics of the Pegasos BootROM and any hardware or Timing differences from the AmigaOnes hardware.
If there is concern about helping Eyetech they could write the HAL for Hyperion. But seeing how the Pegasos II board uses diferent hardware that should not be a great concern to Genesi.
I know a bunch of people who would have gladly purchased a Pegasos board if it had the ability to run AmigaOS or at least the prospect of being able to purchase AmigaOS for it some time in the future.
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Same as Kenny, I had no trouble with your English, Warface. I think you have a solid grasp of the realities too... but as you say, things can soon change :¬)
edit: removed typo which made my English look a LOT worse than Warface's LOL
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@BADHead
Isn't the Amiga1200 and Amiga4000 enough for MorphOS to run on for Amigas?
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kgrach wrote:
I agree MorphOS should be made for the AmigaOne.
Not as a free product of course but as a software solution. Price the CDROM at about a hundred bucks or so.
I also think Genesi missed the boat by not licensing AmigaOS for the Pegasos boards. Hyperion does not really care who they make the OS for. They just want to sell copies of the OS.
They have stated repeatedly a willingness to develope for the Pegasos board.
Bill Buck just needs to trank dart Frank. :) And talk to Hyperion. Hyperion would just need some infomation on the Specifics of the Pegasos BootROM and any hardware or Timing differences from the AmigaOnes hardware.
If there is concern about helping Eyetech they could write the HAL for Hyperion. But seeing how the Pegasos II board uses diferent hardware that should not be a great concern to Genesi.
I know a bunch of people who would have gladly purchased a Pegasos board if it had the ability to run AmigaOS or at least the prospect of being able to purchase AmigaOS for it some time in the future.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Do you seriously think that it is the Genesi who are holding up the porting of AOS4 to the Peg?!?!
Genesi have tried very hard to have as many OS's on their platform as possible (including providing generous support). Hyperion are the ones who call the shots with AOS4 and they decide the licencing deals... :-o
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@kgrach
Ok, where are you getting this information, because it's 180 degrees off of the information I have. Genesi is the group that has offered Hyperion the docs, even a free board, for getting AOS4 onto the Pegasos. Hyperion is the group that has flatly refused cooperation.
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I also think Genesi missed the boat by not licensing AmigaOS for the Pegasos boards. Hyperion does not really care who they make the OS for. They just want to sell copies of the OS.
I recall some troubles with the HW protection scheme (and exclusivity?) and some other maybe.
However, given the circumstances changed (Amiga Inc is in desperate need of income), if say dynamic piece USB dongled agreement can be reached with Amiga Inc/Hyperion and payment can be arranged so, that Genesi only pays after sold OS4 copies, and the license fee could be included in the "OS4 for Pegasos" price.... Now that'd be a solution.
Or even better, leaving Genesi partly out of the business: what about Hyperion setting a number, the number of guaranteed sales they'd develop a Pegasos version for. Then either Genesi or a 3rd person organizing a preorder campaign, with no money involved untill the Pegasos version of OS4 is available, yet guaranteeing the sales when it will be available.
That way only those users (sufficient or not) will be involved who would like to have OS4 as one of the many operating systems on their Pegasos. No ridiculous hassle and prepayment for Genesi, fix income for Hyperion for a little work (modification of the HAL)
Any objections to that from either parties? I bet, unless the number is intentionally irrational, it can be met.
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Well it is not Hyperion!!!!
It might be Amiga Inc but I doubt it anybody who waved money at AMiga Inc is welcomed considering how strapped for cash they are.
But seeing how certain Employees at Genesi have resisted and hindered the Porting of AmigaOS for the classic line.
I believe, and this is pure speculation that it is internal problem within Genesi.
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I agree with Warface.
But Hyperion would need at least some help from Genesi to Make this possible.
The boot ROM using one of Jens boards or a USB Dongle would be an exceptable solution
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Sorry for replying to my own post, but I left out something, which may save Eyetech - having a Pegasos OS4 version you will have two options.
Running AmigaOS4 on a say... err... what's that name... Yeah, Pegasos.
Running AmigaOS4 on an AmigaONE.
I bet the latter will be sufficient reason for many to pay a little more, for a machine bearing THE name.
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Well Warface then Genesi just needs to Rename certain models of the PegII to AmigaTwo.
That should make everybody happy. AII for people who want Amigas and PegII for people who want MorphOS
Yeh I know I keep editing this post and the UniOne for people who want both
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Warface wrote:
Sorry for replying to my own post, but I left out something, which may save Eyetech - having a Pegasos OS4 version you will have two options.
Running AmigaOS4 on a say... err... what's that name... Yeah, Pegasos.
Running AmigaOS4 on an AmigaONE.
I bet the latter will be sufficient reason for many to pay a little more, for a machine bearing THE name.
Hyperion must not own all the rights to the OS4 code. If they did, then they would be able to do whatever they want with it. Either they don't want to port to Pegasos (For whatever reason. Piracy/SmallerUserbase/Politics etc), or they can't due to Amiga Inc having some kind of control due to their licence of the code.
Ben/Hans/Thomas, tell me if i'm wrong? It's late and I'm rambling a bit! :-D
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@kgrach
Believe what you will. Mr. Buck has tried in both private and public to secure AOS4 for the Pegasos. As Genesi is a hardware company, this makes perfect sence. Or, as Bill Buck put it himself, "It would guarantee the sale of 400 more boards." 400 boards is a decent enough quantity to give the Genesi management incentive to overcome the personal dislike of Hyperion and give them a developers board and the documentation needed to get a port over.
And huh? What Genesi employees could have done squat with AmigaOS on the classic line?
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The problem as I understand it, is that Genesi do not want to apply for an OS 4.0 license. If they were serious about getting OS 4.0 they would apply. Simple as that.
Hyperion say, apply for a license through the official channels, Genesi say heres a free Pegasos, this should be all you need.
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I am sure most of the ones running A1 with Linux would be very satisfied with MOS, but lets face it: there is lots of hatred and prejudice towards it.
jealously?? :-?
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@jahc
What license is needed? From whom? And why?
License says "giving rights to." If Genesi is "getting a license to AmigaOS 4" then that means that Genesi is getting the source code *and* the rights to that source code. That is not what anyone is discussing here. They are discussing the current license holder, Hyperion, porting it to the Pegasos. Genesi is not porting any OS's to the Pegasos, hence no license is needed for these OS's. It is up to the owners of these OS's to decide if they want their software on the Pegasos platform or not. It's not up to Genesi to decide that for them. If Hyperion chooses to not port their OS to the Pegasos, it is their decision. No license from AInc can change that.
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@jach
I see you are slightly confused here. If Genesi were to distribute AOS4 with the Pegasos, they would need a licence to distribute the OS. However, if Hyperion were to do a port themselves, Hyperion could sell the port seperate from the Pegasos, no licence required. The only thing stopping this from happening is Hyperion or the "trinity licence."
I do not mean "trinity licence" in a bad way, but Amiga Inc. likely tied Hyperion and Eyetech together. Note, I said likely, I'm not privvy to this info.
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no licence required
Licence or whatever you want to call it... I thought the problem was that Genesi doesn't want to Agree to the Dongle thing. They want OS4 to run on their board, but won't aggree to put the dongle thing on their hardware.
OS4 would be good for both Hyperion and Genesi. Both sides probably know this. But if Genesis isn't going to Uphold the Copy Protection Scheme for OS4 then why should Hyperion port it?
What if Hyperion had used a Serial Number Scheme instead of a Dongle Scheme for their "Method of Copy Proctection" ?? Do you think that Genesi saying, " Here's a free Peg1 board PLEASE port a version of OS4 that DOESN'T require that Serial # so we can distribute it with our hardware" is any different then asking for a Dongle Free Version?
AmigaGuy
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amigaguy wrote:
no licence required
Licence or whatever you want to call it... I thought the problem was that Genesi doesn't want to Agree to the Dongle thing. They want OS4 to run on their board, but won't aggree to put the dongle thing on their hardware.
OS4 would be good for both Hyperion and Genesi. Both sides probably know this. But if Genesis isn't going to Uphold the Copy Protection Scheme for OS4 then why should Hyperion port it?
What if Hyperion had used a Serial Number Scheme instead of a Dongle Scheme for their "Method of Copy Proctection" ?? Do you think that Genesi saying, " Here's a free Peg1 board PLEASE port a version of OS4 that DOESN'T require that Serial # so we can distribute it with our hardware" is any different then asking for a Dongle Free Version?
AmigaGuy
Actually, Genesi is more than willing to put the Dongle on their boards but they don't want to foot the bill for it is all. They have offered to let a 3rd party modify the boards for them and sell the redone boards with OS4 legit, but the requirement is that MorphOS needs to be shipped with the modified design. Since the "dongle" restrictions require no other operating system asside from a chosen Linux package, the 3rd party modified boards won't happen. Not only that, but I don't think anyone is willing to pay the additional 300+ for 3rd party modifications just so they can have a licensed OS4 on their Pegasos. Think about it...
:pint:
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Edit I'm trying to avoid using the word license cause it'ls too confusing.
Casper wrote:
Since they don't make any money from MorphOS I don't think they see it as worth the effort and cost to do it. I don't think they gain much by it, it would only open them up to more competition from the A1 since they now run the same OS (Eyetech could potentially steal pegasos/morphos customers by undercutting their prices).
Well.. Somehow I don't belive Eyetech could (or even want to) suddenly slash their prices in about a half of what they are now selling. There is so much excess baggage on Aone pricing (deals with Hyperion, Ainc, Mai etc..) that they can't compete on pricing.
Besides.. As I see this situation at the moment: (note, I dont work for Genesi or any other company involved, nor do I represent them) There is no point on starting to sell MorphOS on boxes to some limited (one hundred? *see at the bottom*) of Aone users. Only way I can see it to happen would be Eyetech to make a bulk deal with Genesi of right to give a copy of Morphos with every AmigaOne sold. Of course this could allow Aone owners (at Eyetech's expense) to receive same updates etc as other Mos users ...
I also think there's so much bad blood between the two "factions" now so MorphOS for A1 would be like a sign of defeat for them now.
Hmm? defeat of who? Please explain this one a bit, cause it was quite oracular :-P (oracle like)
(bottom) .. A hundred.. It's a quick round number based on well known and open hostility of many AmigaOne owners against any Genesi product and my estimation of Amigaones sold so far. Anyhow a really small number.
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@JoannaK
Only way I can see it to happen would be Eyetech to license Mos to AmigaOnes and pay to Genesi for it.
License says "giving rights to." If Eyetech is "getting a license to MOS" then that means that Eyetech is getting the source code *and* the rights to that source code. Eyetech is not porting any OS's to the A1, hence no license is needed for these OS's. It is up to the owners of these OS's to decide if they want their software on the A1 platform or not. It's not up to Eyetech to decide that for them. If Genesi chooses to not port their OS to the A1, it is their decision. No license from Eyetech can change that.
AmigaGuy
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Ok.. this License word seems to be something I have to look from some nice big book. .. Ok.. I'll rewrite my earlier post without using it cause it seems to mean different things depending on person ... :-D
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@Marktime
I believe that some A1 owners have got MorphOS working by reflashing
the BIOS. But you would need to buy a Pegasos aswell.
I will probably have Linux/OS4 dual booting, KWord is handy for MS
compatability, plus I'd just like to learn more about Linux.
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@Amigaguy
You are quite right, Genesi is the reason there will not be a port to the AmigaONE.... except that morphOS already runs on the Mai Teron boards that the AmigaONE is a copy of. Only eyetech's choice to use a proprietory bootROM system rather than an industry standard firmware is preventing MorphOS from running on the AmigaONE, so I understand.
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So far lots of people have replied to this one phrase, but I feel the need to now as well, so...
Casper:
I also think there's so much bad blood between the two "factions" now so MorphOS for A1 would be like a sign of defeat for them now.
As JoannaK said, that's a pretty oracular statement to make at this time, Casper. You don't know how good OS4 is or how it compares to MorphOS. There is already a huge gulf in their developments and OS4 won't run on an A1 for God knows how long. It may be that in the actual end users will actively beg for MOS, regardless of Genesi's stance. Better than linux for months, anyway.
AmiWest doth cometh. There we'll have a better idea of the relative merits of each, even taking the hardware differences into account. If I can be oracular in turn, it's pretty likely the defeat will not be Genesi's.
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I hope MOS never runs on an AmigaOne so all the fans can run Linux and have fun with that for a while... it adds value to the AmigaOne and thats the last thing Genesi would want to do...aside from that it would 'taint' the Pegasos/MOS group to be connected in any way with the Amiga.inc group of companies IMHO...so I for one wouldnt like to see it.
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Let me see if I have this right ... now some of you want a choice?
MorphOS for Pegasos
AmigaOS4 for AmigaONE
AmigaOS4 for Pegasos
MorphOS for AmigaONE
Personally, I think this is a very interesting idea.
But we have to face reality ...
Genesi and Amiga Inc./Eyetech/Hyperion are in fact competitors.
Generally, there are only four reasons why competitors would work together (it has nothing to do with the needs or wishes of the actual customers):
1) There is a mutually beneficial economic reason to do so.
2) One trying to use diplomacy to get the upper hand on the other.
3) One trying to use strong-arm tactics to get the upper hand on the other.
4) The competitors are joining forces to keep an invader out of the market.
The first one is used by companies of roughly equal size as a mutually beneficial way to cut down on the cost of competing in a small market. Generally, they have duked it out for years with no clear winner. Both companies end up making some sacrifices for the common (economic) good.
The second one is used by a larger company to swallow up a smaller competitor that provides service in an area that the larger one wants to serve or does not serve yet.
The third one is used by a company that wants to stamp out the competition. Sometimes this involves dropping the price of the goods to force their competitor to lose money if they wish to continue competing. Sometimes it means spreading misinformation to sully the reputation of the other, or taking advantage of the other's weaknesses, misfortunes or mistakes.
The last one is a last ditch effort by both companies to stay alive by working together to push out a third competitor or an invader that is theatening both of them.
Will Genesi and AI/Eyetech/Hyperion ever work together? IMHO the answer is NO.
---------------
redfox
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@JoannaK:
(bottom) .. A hundred.. It's a quick round number based on well known and open hostility of many AmigaOne owners against any Genesi product and my estimation of Amigaones sold so far. Anyhow a really small number.
OK Joanna, basing that number on your estimation of AmigaOnes sold so far makes sense, but would you please explain, for those of us in the back of the room, how "open hostility of many AmigaOne owners against any Genesi product" inhibits the "AmigaOne-buying" response from the remainder of the population? is it a testosteronal pheromone response? I guess it could be electromagnetic (those perspex cases do look like they leak a lot of UHF...)
:-D
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Note.. all my comments are IMHO even though I don't put it beginning of each line.
meerschaum wrote:
I hope MOS never runs on an AmigaOne so all the fans can run Linux and have fun with that for a while... it adds value to the AmigaOne and thats the last thing Genesi would want to do...aside from that it would 'taint' the Pegasos/MOS group to be connected in any way with the Amiga.inc group of companies IMHO...so I for one wouldnt like to see it.
Well... Imho you are a bit too cruel.. In the end it's not fair that Amigians who in good faith purchased their new systems have to suffer like that. Otoh, it was their own decision. I can't tell about others but I did try to warn people of this possibility while I was still active on A-one mailing list last year.. Not sure though if anyone actually listened.
About that Mos port though.. Not really likely to happen unless somehting major happens around Aone/os4. At the moment it's not really much of an market nor would I expect Eyetech to cry out for help after all that mud they (alongside AInc, Hyperion etc) has been throwing to Genesi.
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Imho you are a bit too cruel.. In the end it's not fair that Amigians who in good faith purchased their new systems have to suffer like tha
JoannaK we spoke on IRC and I explanied my position... I sincerely hope they get what they paid for (paying money to Amiga.inc they got what they paid for).....
it was their own decision. I can't tell about others but I did try to warn people of this possibility while I was still active on A-one mailing list last year.. Not sure though if anyone actually listened.
I respect that VERY much,,, but it is my (maybe harsh) opinon they deserve what they get....
Not really likely to happen unless somehting major happens around Aone/os4. At the moment it's not really much of an market nor would I expect Eyetech to cry out for help after all that mud they (alongside AInc, Hyperion etc) has been throwing to Genesi.
exactly my point... Genesi has been 'doing' work whilst Amiga.inc companies appear (to me) tbe floundering around trying to milk customers loyal to the name(tm) ... again this is just my OPINON
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@Meerschaum
IMNSHO I Don't think Amiga Incorporated is milking customers for money. Why? If they really were just trying to get the better of Amigans, they would have all this money they from their customers lying about to be used personally, as it would be for profit after all in a scam. Right now we know they have very little cash, they're very budget strapped and Commodore ain't gonna step in with 4 million bucks. They're doing the best they can, which ain;t much but it's what they got oh well.
OFC if Mcbill is really doing this to scam people and not get money from it, that's sicker than most American 'capitalists' I just can't see him getting pleasure from hurting so many people.
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meerschaum wrote:
JoannaK we spoke on IRC and I explanied my position... I sincerely hope they get what they paid for (paying money to Amiga.inc they got what they paid for).....
Yep. So do I .. In the end, this all will be a great learning opportunity to many.
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Only eyetech's choice to use a proprietory bootROM system
Last time I checked U-Boot was OpenSource...
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Ok, where are you getting this information, because it's 180 degrees off of the information I have. Genesi is the group that has offered Hyperion the docs, even a free board, for getting AOS4 onto the Pegasos. Hyperion is the group that has flatly refused cooperation.
Ok, where are you getting this information, because it's 180 degrees off of the information I have.
It seems that one's information is always colored by one's own belief. And for most cases, this "information" is exactly that - belief, nothing else.
But I am probably just wasting my time.
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There is so much excess baggage on Aone pricing (deals with Hyperion, Ainc, Mai etc..)
Yes, I am always amazed at the insight certain people have on internals that have never been published...
It's a quick round number based on well known and open hostility of many AmigaOne owners against any Genesi product and my estimation of Amigaones sold so far. Anyhow a really small number.
Again, you should know, shouldn't you?
-
@Rogue
You picked a wonderful time to enter the discussion! You are correct that most of the people here, including myself, do not know of the basics, let alone the details of the various licences, requirements, and other details surrounding the this idea. In fact the majority of this thread is speculation, because that is what the community has to work with right now, speculation.
I don't expect you to explain the whole thing from your perspective (I'm a firm believer in the 'two sides to every story' thing). However, I would appreciate it, and I belive the community would too, if you could take the time to tell us where you feel that magical middle ground is. If both sides could ever pony up and meet in the middle, what "middle ground" do you envision?
I'm asking this out of curiosity's sake alone. No bashing or hero-worshipping involved. That is the fifty dollar question, "where is the middle ground?"
On a final note, I would like to thank you for taking the time to post here. Whether it is you, your brother, Bill Buck, Raquel Velasco, or any of the other "Big Guys," you all mean a lot to the community, and I appreciate the time you take to post here.
-
Again, you should know, shouldn't you?
Nothing against you personally, but I'm pretty fed up with "answers" like that. This comes from all triarchy "officials" to serious questions. Something progressive instead?
-
@Joanna
Well.. Somehow I don't belive Eyetech could (or even want to) suddenly slash their prices in about a half of what they are now selling. There is so much excess baggage on Aone pricing (deals with Hyperion, Ainc, Mai etc..) that they can't compete on pricing.
I don't know wether or not they'd be able to undercut Genesi. My point was that as long as MorphOS doesn't run on the AmigaONE it is not possible for Eyetech to "steal" MorphOS customers by undercutting the price of the Pegasos. If they port MorphOS to the A1 they would open themselves to this possibiliy.
I also think there's so much bad blood between the two "factions" now so MorphOS for A1 would be like a sign of defeat for them now.
Hmm? defeat of who? Please explain this one a bit, cause it was quite oracular (oracle like)
I'm sorry for being a bit unclear with that statement.
What I meant was that, as you said yourself, there's been a lot of mudslinging going on between Genesi/MorphOS on one side and Eyetech/AInc/Eyetech on the other side. So if either one of them were to agree to a MorphOS port (or a port of OS4 for that matter) on the other side's terms would be like admitting what they have previously said was basically wrong (i.e. admitting defeat).
-
would it be too bad idea for Genesi to sell MorphOS latest version -0.1 for AmigaOne users for $299... I think some would buy it rather than use Linux on their boxes...
-
ah 'the dongle'
amigaguy wrote:
no licence required
Licence or whatever you want to call it... I thought the problem was that Genesi doesn't want to Agree to the Dongle thing. They want OS4 to run on their board, but won't aggree to put the dongle thing on their hardware.
Nor should they, Apple doesn't modify their hardware
or apply for licenses when Raven ports Quake to their
systems...
OS4 would be good for both Hyperion and Genesi.
Agreed.
Both sides probably know this. But if Genesis isn't going to Uphold the Copy Protection Scheme for OS4 then why should Hyperion port it?
It's the developers duty to ensure security on whichever
existing platform they develop for, not the opposite.
What if Hyperion had used a Serial Number Scheme instead of a Dongle Scheme for their "Method of Copy Proctection" ??
This probably would have been much better...conversely,
A-Inc could develop/contract and fund a hardware dongle
for the Peg if software protection was somehow deemed
inadequate (like a serial number).
As I 'myself' see this, only "the duo" loose by not exposing
their product to broader markets...(this BTW is completely
and entirely my OPINION 'only' and may/may not be
actually true).
-
@KennyR
As JoannaK said, that's a pretty oracular statement to make at this time, Casper. You don't know how good OS4 is or how it compares to MorphOS. There is already a huge gulf in their developments and OS4 won't run on an A1 for God knows how long. It may be that in the actual end users will actively beg for MOS, regardless of Genesi's stance. Better than linux for months, anyway.
My inability to express myself clearly seem to have caused a few people to interpret my statement in a way I didn't intend to, and I appologise for that.
See my reply to JoannaK above where I try to explain what I actually tried to say. :-)
-
As things are now (rather different from the situation even months or years ago):
- AFAIK Amiga Inc is short on money
- there are already Pegasos machines out there, demanding a motherboard modification is ridiculous
Question is:
As the return of the cost of an USB dongle for each copy and the cost of development can be guaranteed with a preorder scheme (involving no money untill the product is ready) (at least as methinks), is it a possible alternative?
Some reaction from those involved? Or prepayment is essential?
-
Reality check:
You can't just reflash the AmigaOne to OpenFirmware, you need to write the OpenFirmware first.
Case closed.
-
@downix:
"Only eyetech's choice to use a proprietory bootROM system rather than an industry standard firmware is preventing MorphOS from running on the AmigaONE, so I understand. "
Afaik U-Boot is GPL and supports other cpus too (like ARM)
-
Also, it isn't Eyetechs choice to use U-Boot, it's MAI. I can't believe the amount of misonformation people are using as fact these days.
-
-D- wrote:
Nor should they, Apple doesn't modify their hardware
or apply for licenses when Raven ports Quake to their systems...
Why in the name of sanity are you equating an proprietary Operating System with an open source game ? (with Quake, only the data is proprietary, or so it would appear)
-
@Rogue
Love the avatar!
-
>Why in the name of sanity
Well let's pretend for a second that Quake
is closed, and then make the same analogy...or
pick a different game or other software and
plug it in the comparison instead. :-)
-edit-
Whoops...it appears that ID sells Quake(3) for
the Mac and not Raven, my mistake.
-
Jeezus Nate, you are particularly ill-informed for somebody working at Genesi.
U-Boot is a GPL'ed open-source project, not a proprietary product at all.
If anything is proprietary, it's Openfirmware.
-
-D- wrote:
>Why in the name of sanity
Well let's pretend for a second that Quake
is closed, and then make the same analogy...or
pick a different game or other software and
plug it in the comparison instead. :-)
Great idea! And while we're at it we can pretend that the moon is made of green cheese and discuss the effects this will have on the sales of Gorgonzola.
Furrfu
-
I should also add that we NEVER received an offer from Genesi to obtain the full documentation of the Pegasos hardware including chipsets and firmware documentation.
Idiotic offers to come and pick up the hardware in Paris aside, this is exactly what is needed to even contemplate a port of OS 4 to the Pegasos I.
No hardware modifications are required incidentally, just access to the firmware.
Having said that, given the fact that there are at best only 600 Pegasos I machines out there and far fewer actually sold, it's hardly worth the effort.
The Pegasos I is a discontinued product which has no future and a permanently fixed userbase.
-
/me waves! :-)
Hello! Instead of blaming the users for their not-so-well-informedness, some answers to my questions? :-)
-
The Pegasos I is a discontinued product which has no future and a permanently fixed userbase.
Let's talk about Pegasos then, not Pegasos I.
"Only 600"
Given the number of AmigaONE's sold (of which I have no information, but I doubt that it's many times more than 600) - you are developing for it nevertheless. There will be future Pegasos users as well. An answer please? What number is needed for a port if 600 is not sufficient?
EDIT
A little more progressive answers - instead of reasons why we won't it'd be nicer to hear the conditions you can say yes to.
Untill that it's all about "We won't, and let that be enough". I'm pretty sure if you ask you will receive documentation for the Pegasos.
-
The main point here is that the AmigaOne userbase is not "closed". It can expand beyond whatever number is has now.
Not so for the Pegasos I.
The Pegasos II (if and when it is released) is a different proposition ofcourse.
But I won't be commenting on that until such time as the hardware is actually commercially released.
-
But I won't be commenting on that until such time as the hardware is actually commercially released.
Thank you for the answer :-) May I re-ask it then when either OS4 or the Pegasos II is released?
-
archaic_teapot wrote:
Great idea!
So you're saying it would be normal for a
hardware manufacturer (like Apple) to modify
their hardware at the request of a small
developer in order to run their software?
Anyhow, this is a pointless discussion.
Either "the duo" will make their software
available for 'existing' platforms (like most
do;-)) or not.
And while we're at it, we can pretend that the
moon is made of green cheese and discuss the
effects this will have on the sale of Gorgonzola.
You have quite an odd imagination...
-
The AmigaOne was never redesigned to accomodate the dongle. That should be a pretty big sign as to how much of an operation we're talking about...
-
@all interested
If there is a broad desire to have MorphOS running on the A1 we can organize the production of a free demonstration MorphOS CD.
Please send us an email to bbrv@genesi.lu if you have an interest.
Alternately, the tools could be provided for those that wish to flash back and forth at their own risk. We have had at least two very capable developers suggest they are ready to do this.
Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill :-)
-
Just for kicks....
When can I expect to see MorphOS and AmigaOS4 ported to my x86 PC?
:-D
-
The problem as I understand it, is that Genesi do not want to apply for an OS 4.0 license. If they were serious about getting OS 4.0 they would apply. Simple as that.
The problem is, as in reality, that Amiga Inc. are not about to give Genesi a license.
Amiga have some kind of "high standard" that resellers of AmigaOne and AmigaOS 4.x compatibles are supposed to meet with regards to quality and service support.
Although nobody but Eyetech has ever KNOWN what those requirements are.
Asking Fleecy for a list so you can bring your company up to that standard is impossible: he'll ignore you.
Amiga Inc. says that anyone can apply for an AmigaOS 4.x license and for an Amiga branding, even a reseller like Vesalia, but nobody has managed it yet.
It would be good if Amiga Inc. published the standards and requirements, then Genesi might be able to fulfil them and apply for "certification".
-
BTW this is about Amiga Inc. only.
I'm sure Hyperion would love to port AmigaOS 4.x
to Pegasos. There isn't an issue about "dongling", since there is plenty of stuff in a Pegasos that you can latch onto and use as "authentication".
It'd be painfully easy to add a "Pegasos device" to the OpenFirmware ROM. It'd also be easy to fake that too, I guess, but then it'd also be easy to fake it on a UBoot-style firmware too - remember, it's just a memory area to decode, and UBoot is GPL :)
-
bbrv wrote:
@all interested
If there is a broad desire to have MorphOS running on the A1 we can organize the production of a free demonstration MorphOS CD.
Please send us an email to bbrv@genesi.lu if you have an interest.
Alternately, the tools could be provided for those that wish to flash back and forth at their own risk. We have had at least two very capable developers suggest they are ready to do this.
Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill :-)
Now that's what I call an answer...
-EDIT-
And I have to admit, the idea of a free demonstration version is better than each I have came up with. Please Hyperion, can we have a similar demoversion of OS4 for the Pegasos too?
It's the best way to show the users of the other side what they are missing out.
-
Having said that, given the fact that there are at best only 600 Pegasos I machines out there and far fewer actually sold, it's hardly worth the effort.
The Pegasos I is a discontinued product which has no future and a permanently fixed userbase.
Sounds exactly like the maket for CyberstormPPC owners to me.
-
@BBRV
"If there is a broad desire to have MorphOS running on the A1 we can organize the production of a free demonstration MorphOS CD."
What broad desire would that be, when Amiga Future's "Which Compustersystem you use?"-poll indicates that there are twice as many Pegasos's than there are AmigaOnes when 2170 votes have been casted? At least, I'd imagine exactly those proud A1 owners would be the first ones in line to vote for it.
http://www.voteonline4.de/cgi-neu/vote0n.cgi?action=results&thema=696412
Waste of time and money if you ask me.
-
Flash WHAT?
Will Genesi also provide a working OpenFirmware that supports the southbridge in the new AmigaOne? Because I certainly have never seen one that does...
-
Waste of time and money if you ask me.
I disagree with. Polls are just polls. Many ignore the polls, some may vote multiple times, whatever - polls are mostly unreliable.
And such a demonstration compilation can be used on a variety of PPC systems - I think not even Apple will mind/can do nothing about a "Buy a Pegasos because we have this" MorphOS demonstration CD.
-
When was this poll done? Remember that the AmigaOne is continually shipping, so basing something on numbers even a week old is _wrong_...
I would once again like to request information on this OF Genesi claims to have for the AmigaOne, because I've never seen it...
-
@Ole
It's on going. Been for awhile.
-
@Warface
Ok, maybe "waste of time and money" is a bit off board. Actually that poll was just an example and the one that came to my mind as it's on going.
They are useless if only a small amount of people cast vote, just like in real life political polls. But when we are talking of thousands they are getting more and more reliable.
-
They are useless if only a small amount of people cast vote, just like in real life political polls.
In real life polls it's unlikely that you can cast your vote twice :-)
However, I respect Genesi for the opportunity, and I hope that there will be many AmigaONE users asking them so, and a demo version of MorphOS for the AmigaONE will born soon.
It will cost them nothing but an email, and a bit of open mindedness.
-
@Warface
I can't think of a Pegasos user who would waste his or hers time to vote using different proxies... I assume you meant Pegasos users as they are leading atm? It's too freaking hot for such :-)
I have no doubt some people have voted twice, or even three times.. still we are speaking of thousands of voters here. Anyway .. back to the topic.
-
bbrv wrote:
@all interested
If there is a broad desire to have MorphOS running on the A1 we can organize the production of a free demonstration MorphOS CD.
Please send us an email to bbrv@genesi.lu if you have an interest.
Alternately, the tools could be provided for those that wish to flash back and forth at their own risk. We have had at least two very capable developers suggest they are ready to do this.
Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill :-)
:-o :-o :-D
-
Warface wrote:
They are useless if only a small amount of people cast vote, just like in real life political polls.
In real life polls it's unlikely that you can cast your vote twice :-)
However, I respect Genesi for the opportunity, and I hope that there will be many AmigaONE users asking them so, and a demo version of MorphOS for the AmigaONE will born soon.
It will cost them nothing but an email, and a bit of open mindedness.
Except they need to "reflash to OF", and I have still not seen ANY mention of what OF this is. Remember that the original Teron had a 686A chipset, and incompatibilities(whew) between the A and B version of this is why MAI ended up choosing PPCBoot in the first place.
-
@BBRV
Thank you as well for taking the time to post here. The same things apply as what I said earlier to Rogue.
Interesting thought, though, about a demo that can be run on the A1 hardware.
-
Will Genesi also provide a working OpenFirmware that supports the southbridge in the new AmigaOne? Because I certainly have never seen one that does...
I would venture that if you can run MacOnLinux on your AmigaOne, you have something capable of running MorphOS.
All we have to do is make MorphOS run on a rudimentary Macintosh :)
-
As for "porting" OS4 to Pegasos.. wake up, there's no OS4 for the A1
yet! Nothing to port!
In fact, it seems a long way to go, still. At least that was my
impression of what Ben said at the "OS4 on tour" in Sweden. He said
they were in the process of porting the AmigaOS modules from 68k to
PPC, but with custom hardware still present. He said they had done a
few modules, with about 40 to go. Each one would take about 2-3 days,
he thought. Maybe he or any of the Friedens could comment on whether
they have kept that rate so far?
Well, when that's done, I guess Hyperion will want to release OS4 for
PowerUP cards. Then they can start porting it to the AOne. This will
certainly be a lot of work.
I'm sure there are people who are willing to wait forever, but
speculating about ports to the Pegasos at this time is quite useless..
are we talking about the Pegasos 1, 2, 3, 4.. here?
As for porting (releasing) MorphOS for the A1, I guess there are some
issues. It might be a smart move from Genesi if they want to kill off
OS4, by getting the A1 people to run MorphOS "meanwhile". If
"meanwhile" is as long as I think it will be, they might very well be
convinced MorphOS users long before OS4 comes along.
The downside from the Genesi perspective is of course that there might
be some people buying an A1 (despite the price) because they believe
"it is the only system that will run both OS:es". I'm not sure how big
this group is. I don't know how many people bought an A1 yet. Ben
didn't want to tell at the "on tour" show, although he said it was
more than those buying a Pegasos (whether this included future A1
sales, or what number he was comparing to, I don't know). Well, not
too convincing if he can't even give a number out. Personally I think
about half as many A1 sales as Pegasos sales seems like a fairly good
guess, without having any hard figures.
-
Merko wrote:
The downside from the Genesi perspective is of course that there might
be some people buying an A1 (despite the price) because they believe
"it is the only system that will run both OS:es". I'm not sure how big
this group is. I don't know how many people bought an A1 yet. Ben
didn't want to tell at the "on tour" show, although he said it was
more than those buying a Pegasos (whether this included future A1
sales, or what number he was comparing to, I don't know). Well, not
too convincing if he can't even give a number out. Personally I think
about half as many A1 sales as Pegasos sales seems like a fairly good
guess, without having any hard figures.
No need to panic there... eventually all machines will run AROS, so it doesn't matter what you bought...
Have fun people!!!! :-D
-
(edit.. a majore tone-down..)
olegil wrote:
Remember that the AmigaOne is continually shipping, so basing something on numbers even a week old is _wrong_...
IMHO (apperently I need to put this into every posting to keep some smartasses making bunch of nonreplies).. Not meaning you, Olegil :-D
It would make a LOT easier for all of us to make this kind of discussions IF Eyetech annouced sales/deliveries on public. But as it is, only thing left to us is guesswork. (so.. all numbers in this are just estimations.. nothing more).
-
Neko wrote:
I would venture that if you can run MacOnLinux on your AmigaOne, you have something capable of running MorphOS.
All we have to do is make MorphOS run on a rudimentary Macintosh :)
Maybe I'm a bit lost here, but it sounds rather like you're implying MOS is a clone of MacOS 9.x - which it isn't - or a variant of xxxxBSD, which I doubt it is either.
Doesn 't make sense, but then I can't understand why people would want to run OSX (basically a tarted-up *nix clone) using MOL.
Maybe I need another drink :-? :-?
-
KennyR wrote:
Technically MorphOS should run on an A1 without much change. You'd have to reflash the A1 to use OpenFirmware though.
Mmmm. While I agree that technically it shouldn't be difficult, I doubt reflashing the ROM would be a good idea : it's the ROM that's got the key to running AOS4 when it comes out (and it is when, not if, with that "when" looking increasingly similar to RSN).
If your ROM has been wiped, you've just thrown your Earlybird licence down the cludgie.
To be sure of being able to use MOS while waiting for AOS4, and without burning your bridges, either MOS would have to be rewritten to be compatible with uBoot, or else some sort of hardware dual boot method - a bit like the old Amiga ROMS - would be needed.
-
@anarchic_teapot
Well, cheers then!
-
Last time I checked U-Boot was OpenSource...
OpenSource doesn't mean it's non-proprietory. All it means is that it's open-source. Can you find uBoot on other retail-box PPC machines? Nope. While it might be open source, it is also a proprietory, that is it does not follow any of the established PowerPC conventions (PREP, CHRP nor POP).
-
Afaik U-Boot is GPL and supports other cpus too (like ARM)
Doesn't make it a standard now, does it?
There are 3 clearly established PowerPC platforms, PREP, CHRP and POP. Anything outside of those are, by definition, proprietory. The Pegasos is a CHRP machine, an open standard platform. The AmigaONE is not PREP, CHRP nor POP, it is Mai's proprietory design, only differing from CHRP by it's boot-ROM, in this case the open-source uBoot.
-
Sorry Nate but first you are going on about U-Boot being proprietary.
This was clearly wrong as the definition of the word "proprietary" means that it is a specific entity's property.
GPL'ed software by definition cannot be proprietary as the GPL license puts the code in the public domain.
So you suddenly reverse course and claim that it's the actual Mai hardware that is proprietary.
This is again wrong unless the design were protected by some kind of intellectual or industrial property right which it clearly is not.
Anybody can copy the Mai motherboard.
You would ofcourse need proprietary chipsets like the Articia S and the VIA unless you choose to develop your own replacements.
Bottom-line is: the Pegasos design is no more proprietary or less proprietary than the Mai motherboard.
The fact that it adheres or not to a "standard" like POP etc. doesn't change that one bit.
Unless you are suggesting you can build a POP board without using proprietary CPU's and chipsets.
-
@HyperionMP
http://playground.sun.com/pub/p1275/
Read up before you open your mouth again and have to insert your foot.
The IEEE 1275 booting mechanism used by the Pegasos (commonly called Open Firmware with the implimentation used by the Pegasos called Smart Firmware) is an industry standard system originally proposed by Sun Microsystems and Apple Computers, and used by millions of machines in the US alone.
In other words, it's not proprietory.
Now, yours and others claim is that if the system uses GPL software, it is non-proprietory. Well then, please feel free to rebuttal my arguement:
TiVO
A clearly proprietory system, running GPL'd software.
So deal with it, the AmigaONE is a proprietory system based on a non-standard BIOS while the Pegasos is a CHRP platform using the IEEE-1275 Open Firmware based boot system. And what's the difference, really?
The boot ROM.
-
Ben, you can argue all you want. But the fact is that OpenFirmware is
a standard that runs on PPC machines from more than one manufacturer.
U-boot does not, despite its open source status.
What this means, is simply that something made to run with
OpenFirmware can easily be ported to other hardware that runs
OpenFirmware. Meanwhile, something made for U-boot can easily be
ported to other hardware that uses U-boot.. well.. except that no
such hardware exists.
-
@olegil
Don't know what Open Firmware is? Glad you asked.
Open Firmware, also known as IEEE-1275, is an industry standard firmware, that is ROM-based booting system, used by hundreds of manufacturers worldwide to support SPARC, PowerPC, MIPS, 68k, Coldfire, ARM, PA-RISC, Alpha as well as other lesser-known processors. The root of the system is the programming language FORTH, well known for it's performance and CPU-agnostic approach to handling tasks.
Sun has good documentation on Open Firmware at: http://playground.sun.com/pub/p1275/
Using the public documentation, one should be able to program any drivers needed to make their hardware "Open Firmware compatable."
The IEEE-1275 implimentation used by the Pegasos is called Smart Firmware, and is made availible from Codegen, Inc. a world-renouned supplier of Open Firmware for 3rd party platforms. (Apple, Sun as well as others use their own implimentations)
Any other questions?
-
@HyperionMP
GPL'd software itself can be used as proprietory, as TiVO shows. This is the case in the AmigaONE. While sure, anyone can download Linux and run it on their machines, it doesn't allow them to run the TiVO's special software, does it? Just because someone can install uBoot doesn't mean that suddenly they can run AmigaOS4 now, does it?
-
HyperionMP wrote:
I should also add that we NEVER received an offer from Genesi to obtain the full documentation of the Pegasos hardware including chipsets and firmware documentation.
Idiotic offers to come and pick up the hardware in Paris aside, this is exactly what is needed to even contemplate a port of OS 4 to the Pegasos I.
I don't think the offer of come to paris to pick up the hardware is idiotic. This is part of business.
Why do you want to assume this to be idiotic?
No hardware modifications are required incidentally, just access to the firmware.
Having said that, given the fact that there are at best only 600 Pegasos I machines out there and far fewer actually sold, it's hardly worth the effort.
The Pegasos I is a discontinued product which has no future and a permanently fixed userbase.
The majority of the first run Pegasos boards out there are in the hands of developers & power users. These are the people preparing the way for the second generation or second run pegasos, which looks to be produced in a much larger volume.
Can you say that there are 600+ AmigaOnes running OS4 in the hands of developers? Probably not... but if there was then the OS4 would be a much stronger platform to develop for, right?
As it is, I don't see how selling 600 AmigaOne's running Linux to end users would be of benefit to Hyperion or the users themselves.
By the time OS4 ships, the AmigaOne's will drop in price to 200Euros or less, right? :-D
-
Ya know, I really feel like showing off my full nerdiness tonight.
Ben Hermans, you want full docs on how to port your OS to a CHRP platform, then let's start at the source:
PowerPC(tm) Microprocessor Common Hardware Reference Platform: A System Architecture
ISBN 1-55860-394-8
Published by Morgan Kaufmann Publishers, Inc.
they can be reached at:
1-415-392-2665
In addition, it can also be obtained from IBM at:
+39-39-600-4455
Please refer to the above documentation for full understanding of the CHRP bindings for the IEEE-1275-1994 Open Firmware.
-
Ya know, Ben Hermans, ya really got me to thinking.
So here is the answer to your problems:
http://www.openbios.info/
An open-source implimentation of Open Firmware. While under-finished, it is no more underfinished than PPCBoot was when you started.
-
Number of points to pick up on.
1. How comes Ben has to go to Paris to collect a board when Genesi will ship to any other developer anywhere in the world?
2. If Bill is so desperate to get AOS on board, why doesn't he just send them the fricking board and docs, rather than you guys piss and moan about "them" not accepting your offers.
3. Let's be honest here, a large part of the reason that there is no co-operation is not to do with licencing, dongles etc. It's the reason why here in July 2003 the classic Amiga scene is so bad, and that is the oversized egos of certain developers.
4. How is urguing about what's proprietry and what isn't helping the situation?
All I see here is the same people comming out with the same old crap. Pull your heads out of your own arses for 5 seconds and see exactly what has been achieved in the last 5 years aside from olympic standard finger-pointing
-
@uncharted
the original offer was to send it to Hyperion IIRC. After being rebuffed, it's been reduced to either a) coming to paris or b) Ben Hermans showing up at one of the Amiga shows and bbrv handing it over in-person.
But you are right, the major issue is that of ego. The "My way is the right way" attitude of the Amiga community in general.
And without that ego, there wouldn't be an Amiga community at all, it is what defines us.
-
downix wrote:
@uncharted
the original offer was to send it to Hyperion IIRC. After being rebuffed, it's been reduced to either a) coming to paris or b) Ben Hermans showing up at one of the Amiga shows and bbrv handing it over in-person.
I'm sure Ben would say differently. TBH I can't be arsed to work out who's telling the truth, there should be no need.
But you are right, the major issue is that of ego. The "My way is the right way" attitude of the Amiga community in general.
And without that ego, there wouldn't be an Amiga community at all, it is what defines us.
I'm not talking about general zelotry here, but rather those with the ability to do something (software developers, business men, hardware designers), whose egos have been and still are blocking progress. So much has happened becuase of an individual or group, putting thier own selves pride and arrogance in front of that of technological, market and community progress.
Ultimately the community is left to kiss butt, stroke egos and fight it out amoungst themselves.
-
You are still very much wrong Nate.
It is clear that GPL'ed software like U-Boot is not capable of being owned by anybody on the basis of the GPL license alone.
I'm sure you are not denying it.
Can one builld proprietary hardware using GPl'ed software?
Sure. But that would imply that the proprietary nature of the hardware design and of the design alone (e.g. protected by a patent) would give rise to its proprietary nature.
This is not the case for the Mai motherboards.
Neither the hardware nor the firmware is proprietary in this case.
With respect to Open Firmware:
First of all, the IEEE standard was withdrawn. It is in fact no longer an IEEE standard.
Take a look at:
http://www.openfirmware.org/
"The IEEE-1275 Open Firmware standard was not reaffirmed by the OFWG and has been officially withdrawn by IEEE. Unfortunately, this means it is unavailable from the IEEE. "
Has this any impact on its proprietary nature?
No.
A "standard" and/or its implementation can be completely proprietary.
Companies developing firmware on the basis of the Openfirmware "standard" are developing proprietary software because that specific implementation is protected by copyright.
I am not allowed to strip out a Mac's firmware or the Pegasos's OF rom and distribute it because that is a violation of copyright law.
Hence, while something might well be an "open" standard (ie in the public domain), the actual implementation of that open standard is nearly always proprietary i.e. protected by copyright law.
Not so for U-Boot which is GPL'ed.
-
We don't need a "free" Pegasos, we are capable of obtaining one ourselves.
In fact, no less than 3 OS 4 developers have a Pegasos.
What we would really need is full disclosure of the hardware documentation (all chipsets) and of the firmware including the ability to reflash the rom.
There was NEVER an offer on the table for that.
The hardware by itself is useless.
-
Not if that were finished, it would indeed be a non-proprietary implementation of Openfirmware.
And we have been aware of that project for some time.
Don't forget that the original Teron boards used a proprietary OF Rom developed by Softex.
Mai didn't feel like continuing with more proprietary firmware so they chose PPCBoot instead which they could freely adapt and copy themselves.
So we did look into that open source project at the time but its state was very much unsuitable for our purpose.
U-Boot is in fact used by tons of embedded system hardware using a variety of different CPU's like PPC and StrongArm/X-Scale.
Why?
Because if they went for OF instead, they would have to hire a company to adapt its proprietary OF implementation to a specific piece of hardware.
No such problems with U-Boot.
You can either adapt it to your own hardware or hire somebody else to do it.
Either way, you'll get full disclosure of the source-code and are free to copy and adapt it.
-
Nate
industry standard system originally proposed by Sun Microsystems and Apple Computers, and used by millions of machines in the US alone.
In other words, it's not proprietory.
Your argument boils down to something isn't open if it does not follow
an IEEE, W3C or OMG managed standard? Come on! But lets move on from
that - we know that it isn't a proper standard. So your second part is that it is
standard because its used by millions of devices.
So..... ..... is Windows more "Open" than AROS?
So, given that it is not a proper standard, its not more open or less than U-Boot (GPL) how
about you just live with it. U-Boot is not proprietary.
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Hello,
"What we would really need is full disclosure of the hardware documentation (all chipsets) and of the firmware including the ability to reflash the rom."
http://www.mai.com/ (I'm sure you already have the documentation for this one)
http://www.via.com.tw/ (I'm sure you can have documentation for the southbridge easily from them as you should already be under NDA with them for the AmigaOne southbridge)
http://www.codegen.com/SmartFirmware/index.html
(Should not be too difficult also)
I'm sure that if you start investigating and start to work already on the port, you'll see it's not as much difficult as you think.
Regards
-
@Frodon
I recall in one of Alan of Eyetech’s power-point lectures; they mentioned problems with obtaining the appropriate documentation from some of the said companies.
-
is Windows more "Open" than AROS?
Which Windows? Does Windows CE ring any bell? “Windows CE” was the first Windows to be “open sourced” by Microsoft.
-
@Frodon:
If they don't have those docs already I wonder how the hell they're coding on the AmigaOne if, and that's a big if, they really do have anything substantial to show besides a text-based boot loader. Somehow I doubt they have :)
@HyperionMP:
Just because IEEE "withdrew" the standard does not make it less of a standard or a current technology. The IEEE standards process requires that for a published document the working group needs to constantly work on it: and when they stop, the standard "lapses" - or to be more positive, becomes "finalised" and nothing more is added to it.
All it means really is that you can't buy the paper docs from the IEEE anymore, there is no discussion, and no more work is going to be done on it in terms of standards process.
Given that Sun and Apple (note that neither of them "own" it), and use it with great success, this does not do much for your "it's no standard" issue, and makes it non-proprietary.
UBoot, however, is a completely custom and by dictionary definition, proprietary interface designed to boot many machines into Linux, primarily. It has minimal functionality, and a non-ratified API. It may be OpenSource, but that just means the specification and code is free to use: not that it is not proprietary.
The GPL actually PROTECTS author ownership of code, that's the whole point of the GPL!
UBoot is copyright of, property of, proprietary to, the UBoot project, in any legal or non-legal sense.
.. therefore, since Pegasos is based on a standard hardware platform, designed by a group of very large hardware and software companies a while back (CHRP is an Apple/IBM/Motorola invention and is well documented) and utilises OpenFirmware - another standard, used as specified by the CHRP standard - and the actual components of the motherboard are rarely different to the ones on AmigaOne (same Northbridge, all the old Via southbridges have very similar ATA100, USB etc. register sets), you can port it.
@Whoever asked why Ben has to go to Paris:
You really think we don't want to talk to him about the project he's about to undertake, and possibly demonstrate other systems and solutions for him?
He could run away and take the board to Thomas and Hans-Joerg and have it working on his own if he wanted to, but you'd really rather like to talk to the hardware designers, right?
@The guy with the butterfly:
Bill has said before that one of the ideas is to distribute software written for MorphOS with a copy of the OS on an "autorunning" CD for certain platforms. Mac might be one of them (imagine putting a game on there and it being MorphOS underneath). This would be MorphOSOnMac, in the same way that you have MacOnLinux.
The other possibility is that since MacOnLinux has the ability to load an Apple OpenFirmware ROM from disk, you can hijack it like Linux does on a real Mac (effectively being MorphOS running native, insofar as Linux runs native after Apple's bootstrap finishes).
Since MorphOS only needs OpenFirmware to boot, all you'd need then is some rudimentary drivers for system components (most of the operation of which can be derived from the emulations in MacOnLinux)
-
Matt, I'm not going to debate the definition of "proprietary" to death here but the point is that "proprietary" refers to something being somebody's property, being "owned" by someone.
In the context of intangible assets, proprietary refers to the existence of intellectual and industrial property rights governing these assets.
In that sense an implementation of OF by a specific company is proprietary because they hold the copyright on this implementation.
This is impossible with the GPL license.
With respect to U-Boot versus OF, U-boot is very widely used as well by numerous vendors.
Moreover, the U-Boot shipping with the current AmigaOne hardware is by far more feature-rich that the Pegasos' OF (to the extent that anybody cares).
-
Hello,
"With respect to U-Boot versus OF, U-boot is very widely used as well by numerous vendors.
Moreover, the U-Boot shipping with the current AmigaOne hardware is by far more feature-rich that the Pegasos' OF (to the extent that anybody cares)."
Do you care to elaborate please?
Regards
-
Just a few examples: U-Boot nows has tons of configuration menues which allows you to tweak all kinds of Articia S settings (PCI/AGP), the location of parallel and serial ports & modes, selection of booting devices, integrated diagnostic code, support for Port 80/Post type cards, support for the Catweasel controller etc. etc.
-
Hello,
"Just a few examples: U-Boot nows has tons of configuration menues which allows you to tweak all kinds of Articia S settings (PCI/AGP), the location of parallel and serial ports & modes"
Well I'm personnally not a fan of GUI for BIOS/Firmware (so I don't really like PC BIOS as most have GUI), as for me advanced settings like that are only for people who know what they do.
And normally these people are used to command lines and scripts and for me command lines/scripts are far more powerful for advanced settings than a GUI.
And so additionnaly, command lines/scripts for these kind of advanced settings discourage normal users to tweak them and so it's help to avoid users that don't know what they do to do bad things on the BIOS/Firmware.
But that is just my personal opinion. That's why I really like the OF on both my Mac and my Pegasos, and far more than a BIOS on a PC.
But of course for selecting what OS to boot, a GUI is useful. In fact just like what my Mac do :) The OF in itself is text based, but there is a graphical boot selector (you get it by pressing Alt at boot time) to select on which OS you want to boot.
Regards
-
I really don't understand that.
I mean, it is not like you accidentally end up in the firmware configuration menues, you need to take action to do so.
If you have no business there and that should hold for most users most of the time, you'll never even notice that these menues are there.
-
Hello,
@HyperionMP
Well my point was more that command lines/scripts are IMHO far more powerful (it can even allow to access to more than the available settings that a GUI would limitate to (as in that case you are limited to the entries in the menus)).
But it's just a matter of opinion, if you don't understand, then just forget it.
Regards
-
I haven't seen the AmigaONE boot, yet I think the boot handling part is a "the less I see it the better" thing.
So it has absolutely no interest of the user, unless something gone way wrong. If you can then fix it, then good. If not, then bad bad bad.
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@Neko:
Not quite what I asked for, but ok. If that's your plan, port MOS to Mac hardware and I'll give it a go under MOL ;-)
Personally, I have the only AmigaOne that runs with Softex Openfirmware (that I know of), due to it having a 686A chipset. So if Genesis sends me a flashrom with Softex on it and a CD with MOS, I'll be happy to test it. I can't promise I'll keep it installed, but I would certainly give it a once-over ;-)
But the AmigaOne as sold today doesn't AFAIK support OF...
-
In this case,what it really matters,is the choice.As in the U-Boot you can use both menu or command line whatever you prefer.
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@downix:
Thanks for that insult.
Now go back and read my posting again. The problem is THERE IS NO WORKING OPENFIRMWARE IMPLEMENTATION _AS FAR AS I KNOW_ THAT SUPPORTS THE AMIGAONE WITH A 686B SOUTHBRIDGE.
Thanks for playing, but you'll need to insert more coins.
The problem is then that YOU CAN'T REFLASH THE AMIGAONE WITH THE TERON OF BECAUSE IT WILL NOT BOOT, HENCE IT WON'T BOOT MOS EITHER.
Got it now? I didn't think so.
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@Warface:
I think Frodon means that since HE doesn't like to have a GUI, _I_ shouldn't be allowed to type "menu" if I want to move IRQs or change the boot arguments or something. Quite normal in the Amiga "community". See it all the time.
"We don't want configurable options, we want MY preferred settings burned into the ROM!!!"
Yep, that's the attitude ;-)
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olegil wrote:
@Warface:
I think Frodon means that since HE doesn't like to have a GUI, _I_ shouldn't be allowed to type "menu" if I want to move IRQs or change the boot arguments or something. Quite normal in the Amiga "community". See it all the time.
"We don't want configurable options, we want MY preferred settings burned into the ROM!!!"
Yep, that's the attitude ;-)
At first I think that was Frodon's own opinion. Maybe he likes OF better because he uses that. And you like UBoot better because you use that.
In my opinion (as an Amiga user) VGA character screens suxx. I'd like to haveAmiga like graphical GUI's - but I bet it's a dream given the circumstances, just like having a custom graphic chip architecture.
-
I wonder something else too, i will put to all PPC linux ppl....do you like it? I mean did you plan to go OS 4 only at first, but now you suspect you'll be dual booting, even after OS 4?
no i wont be dual booting my a1 it has debian linux installed but ppc linux is crap compared to x86 distros with nvidia drivers. :-D
i would like morphos on my a1 instead of linux but i will get a pegasos some time later on.Im sure someone will work out how to do it without bios flashing. :-D
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but don't expect the MOS team to do it - they're always far too busy.
I know they are there in more forums than any other hardware supplier. :-D
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Ok, where are you getting this information, because it's 180 degrees off of the information I have. Genesi is the group that has offered Hyperion the docs, even a free board, for getting AOS4 onto the Pegasos. Hyperion is the group that has flatly refused cooperation.
From what i remeber they did it in a forum and not directly by contacting hyperion . :-?
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What broad desire would that be, when Amiga Future's "Which Compustersystem you use?"-poll indicates that there are twice as many Pegasos's than there are AmigaOnes when 2170 votes have been casted? At least, I'd imagine exactly those proud A1 owners would be the first ones in line to vote for it.
but that site is german i cant read much german and it is not a well known site besides amigaones are all over the country not just germany. :-?
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@amigamad
Actually they tried to contact Hyperion privately at first, but to no responce. As a last resort, they brought it to public, so as to say "hey, at least we tried."
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Actually they tried to contact Hyperion privately at first, but to no responce. As a last resort, they brought it to public, so as to say "hey, at least we tried."
So they say cant have tried very hard. :-o
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@HyperionMP
Rather than fight you Ben, I decided on instead focusing on our different viewpoints.
If Open Firmware is proprietory, then so is: PCI, AGP, USB, Firewire, AC97
As they all obey the same rules as open firmware: establish a standard that allows any company to make their product able to work within the standard.
In fact, that is what defines a standard.
But, if you'd like a clarification that will halt this arguement:
SmartFirmware is a proprietory piece of software on the Pegasos motherboard that follows the Open Firmware standard, enabling it to configure the system, add expantion cards and even boot up OS's in accordance with the Open Firmware specification and is guaranteed by the Open Firmware standards group.
uBoot is an open source piece of software on the AmigaONE motherboard that has no standards body behind it, thereby not guaranteeing it to work with any product, peripheral card, expantion port nor even an OS thereby making the implimentation on the AmigaONE proprietory to the AmigaONE.
Unless, of course, Hyperion is willing to guarantee uBoot will do the same things Open Firmware's trade association does, namely state that any firmware that follows the defined spec will work exactly how the spec details. If you'd like to set up a trade association for uBoot, a friend of mine does this for a living and I'd be more than happy to pass along his contact information to you.
In the end, as with all things, it depends on your point of view. I view things in terms of how they communicate. Now, I might be wrong here, but you appear to view them in terms of ownership. Neither viewpoint is invalid, but they don't see eye to eye either.
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@amigamad
They didn't try hard with any OS group. They e-mailed NewOS, some BSD'ers, the OpenBeOS group, some Linux guys... no problems with any of them. Why would Genesi offer more to yet another OS group than they did for the majority? Is Hyperion special in some way?
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@AmigaMad
but that site is german i cant read much german and it is not a well known site besides amigaones are all over the country not just germany.
-------------------
can't find your logic here. I am from Finland, non-german aswell. I have studied german only for a couple years, its like hebrew to me.
Since when the majority of Pegasos's been in german either? :)
It is not a well known site, I think I wrote something like "just for an example" earlier, plus my comment was a bit off topic anyway.
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>but that site is german i cant read much german
>and it is not a well known site besides amigaones
>are all over the country not just germany.
1. There is an "english" translation for the poll.
2. The Poll has been announced on various non
German websites, like amiga.org or ann.lu
3. Not every Pegasos owner is from Germany ;)
4. Germany has most probably still the majority of
Amiga users.
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@downix et al:
I notice noone is answering my question about what OF you would reflash the AmigaOne with. I want to see this, you know...
-
by olegil on 2003/7/23 19:41:21
@downix et al:
I notice noone is answering my question about what OF you would reflash the AmigaOne with. I want to see this, you know...
----------------------
From ann.lu:
Posted by Olegil (x.x.x.x) on 23-Jul-2003 16:27:03
"Personally, I choose NOT to repeat my opinion more than strictly necessary, because I know that if I hear someones opinion too many times I will start to ignore it."
----------------------
Thats being ignored, mate ;-)
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Neko wrote:
@Whoever asked why Ben has to go to Paris:
You really think we don't want to talk to him about the project he's about to undertake, and possibly demonstrate other systems and solutions for him?
And exactly how many of the other OS developers have had to do this? If AmigaOS 4 is "just another OS" why this special treatment? I think the answer is obvious.
He could run away and take the board to Thomas and Hans-Joerg and have it working on his own if he wanted to, but you'd really rather like to talk to the hardware designers, right?
Then why go to Paris? BPlan are in Germany. Surely as the hardware designers are in Germany and the AmigaOS developers in charge of the HAL/Kernal/firmware are also in Germany, then it would make sense to meet in, um Germany rather than both parties travelling to France.
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Except this isn't an opinion, it's a rather fair question. Genesi claims you only need to reflash, I ask "with what?" and get no answer. So, I take it the answer is "nothing"?
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I guess I am being ignored. Even when I know I have the right answer people still keep asking others. So maybe I should just stop posting here alltogether. Would save me a lot of time not answering user questions like I've been doing. *sigh*
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Who claimed, or even implied, that there would be an OpenFirmware
implementation available for anyone to install on their A1's?
The obvious answer to the question is "there isn't any", but why do
you ask it?
Yes, it'd take a little effort to port MorphOS to the A1. Genesi would
have to modify SmartFirmware to run on the A1. Who denied this? What's
the issue?
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@Downix:
They didn't try hard with any OS group. They e-mailed NewOS, some BSD'ers, the OpenBeOS group, some Linux guys... no problems with any of them. Why would Genesi offer more to yet another OS group than they did for the majority? Is Hyperion special in some way?
Think you answered the question by yourself: All this groups are afaik open source projects. Hyperion is a company that has to earn some money...
Maybe that's a little extreme, but please also ask yourself: Will Microsoft port WindowsXP to the Pegasos if Bill will offer to send them a board?
-
Hi
#
I notice noone is answering my question about what OF you would reflash the AmigaOne with. I want to see this, you know...
------
Come on now Ole-Egil :-)
A few weeks ago you asked me to relax... now I have to ask you the same... please relax !
No need to scream things out. If Genesi will make a free, maybe time-limited version of MorphOS for the AmigaOne they of course also will make whats needed to have it to run, don't you think ?
Hmm... maybe I can ask you, don't you like to have more software available for the hardware ?
All the best !
/Gunne
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@Mason
if Microsoft benefit financially, no doubt.
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@Hooligan_DCS
if Microsoft benefit financially, no doubt.
Maybe you hit it! Hyperion might do not see a market for OS4 on the Pegasos, as MophOS is to good...
And here we go to the schizophrenia part of the story as some people of the MorpOS side claim how great their system is and on the other hand blame Hyperion for not porting OS4 to their system.
Strange...
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Well I was answering just the Microsoft related question, nothing else. I have no opinion what so ever about OS4 vs MOS, except I expect OS4 to be FAR more advanced than MOS 1.3. Maybe even 1.4.
So if you're referring me with your last sentence, go take a cool shower now :) Quick quick when the sweat is still there :-D
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Sorry, I don't want to harm you!
It was just about the hole discussion.
... but I think a cold shower will be good too, based on the weather conditions in europe ;-)
-
About the weather, tell me about it.. I have burned my back three times (but I DO have a sexy tan :-) )
Now, me off to celebrate Amigas's 18th birthday ... till tomorrow ppl.
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@Mason
Nobody is blaming Hyperion for not porting AOS4 to the Pegasos. But nobody is granting them favors either.
And I'd note, QNX, a closed-source commercial OS *IS* being ported to the Pegasos w/o any special arrangements being granted other than a single e-mail to their management and mailing them a board.
-
Maybe that's a little extreme, but please also ask yourself: Will Microsoft port WindowsXP to the Pegasos if Bill will offer to send them a board?
For potential answers, refer to issues that surrounds the MS Windows NT 4.0 PowerPC Edition…
-
For potential answers, refer to issues that surrounds the MS Windows NT 4.0 PowerPC Edition…
I actually own that, surprisingly.
Never tried to use it tho.
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downix wrote:
For potential answers, refer to issues that surrounds the MS Windows NT 4.0 PowerPC Edition…
I actually own that, surprisingly.
Never tried to use it tho.
Have a play with it Nate, it'd be fantastic to see it running on a Pegasos, the list of supported OS's would be even geekier with Windows on it!
-
Let me at'em!
:-D
-
Ben, why would you need to reflash the ROM?
The Linux people don't need to reflash. The BSD people don't need to
reflash. The OpenBeOS people don't need to reflash. The QNX people
don't need to reflash.
Why would you want to reflash? To make sure nobody could use the
computer to run MorphOS/Linux/BSD/BeOS/QNX anymore?
Been listening too much to Häusser telling you that the flashrom is
part of a diabolic plan to put Amiga users under the dominion of
Laire/Linux/graverobbers from outer space?
Just for your information: No, using a computer containing a flashrom
programmed by Ralph Schmidt does not mean he's able to eat your soul.
-
Would it be possible to run MorphOS on "Mac On Linux"? It would be slower, but perhaps good enough for a demo?
:-?
-
>Would it be possible to run MorphOS on "Mac On
>Linux"?
Something I would also like to see would be a
"Mac On Morph" type of setup...kind of like
Shapeshifter but for MorphOS/OSX.
-
-D- wrote:
>Would it be possible to run MorphOS on "Mac On
>Linux"?
Something I would also like to see would be a
"Mac On Morph" type of setup...kind of like
Shapeshifter but for MorphOS/OSX.
Yeah, that would be [color=0000CC]*really*[/color][/b][/i][/u] nice! :-)
-
I prefer Os4 but I would realy prefer MOs to linux
Linux is cool but MOs is much closer to an amiga
as far as I'm concerned :-) .........
I'd use MOs till Os4 roled out
(and acording to nay-sayers that would be quiet a while)
-
And here we go to the schizophrenia part of the story as some people of the MorpOS side claim how great their system is and on the other hand blame Hyperion for not porting OS4 to their system.
No, it's not a contradiction. Yet I see, many OS4 ppl has the "one machine one OS" approach, which is about to change with the AmigaONE/Pegasos. I already use 3 different OS - depending on what I'd like to do, and which is best for the purpose.
OS4 is among many, and Pegasos users would like to see it beside MorphOS (and the rest) and not instead of it.
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@takemehomegrandma
In theory, yes. Actually, that's not a bad idea at all. I'll mention it to Bill when I see him tomorrow.
See everyone at AmiWest.
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downix wrote:
@takemehomegrandma
In theory, yes. Actually, that's not a bad idea at all. I'll mention it to Bill when I see him tomorrow.
See everyone at AmiWest.
Maybe Bill could talk to Christian Bauer about doing a Mac-on-MorphOS? http://www.uni-mainz.de/~bauec002/ (http://www.uni-mainz.de/~bauec002/)
Would it be possible to have a 'M-Box' like we have an 'A-Box' and 'Q-Box' and the talked about idea of the 'ST-Box'? That would be cool! :-D
-
(http://user.it.uu.se/~larsoe/Utbildningstips/Errors/ErrorPictures/tjat.gif)
Now, do you want a third opinion? Well, if you close your eyes and then reopen them . . . you'll 'see' a third (AND fourth) opinion! :-)
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@ vortexau
Once I in Windows (NT4 or 2k I think) I got a "Error opening the error requester"-requester. How about that? :-o :-D
-
I think running Linux on MorphOS, via some kind of box, like the one Mac on Linux provides (without actually running Mac OS X, which is illegal) would be a lovely idea.
There is also another one, dear to my heart. ARANym, which is a very strange acronym, but stands for Atari Running on Any Machine. It is a full 68K including FPU and MMU!
It allows you to run Atari software...including a completely legal clean box TOS called FreeTOS, but the idea here, is that with that MMU support, you might also be able to run Linux m/68K and/or FreeBSD.
ya ya sure sure, so what...not the most sought after OS's in the world...but it would be a fun geeky thing, if no other emulator was available, you could still get a linux live of sorts on your machine.
Apples old A/UX actually does run inside of Fusion on a real amiga, ....wild, wacky stuff.
I was originally working on porting linux m/68k to some kind of virtual machine, but now I simply think its a good idea, but won't work on it. I'm thinking of getting AROS, and maybe poking around a bit, but it doesn't seem to be finished yet.
-
@MarkTime
I think running Linux on MorphOS, via some kind of box, like the one Mac on Linux provides (without actually running Mac OS X, which is illegal) would be a lovely idea
Damn you like getting your point across