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Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: HenryCase on January 04, 2008, 12:54:18 AM
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Looking for ways to get OS4 out of its current bad situation.
I know others have tried this before, but I would like a discussion on suitable Virtual Machine (VM) platforms for OS4, and the work required to build an OS4 VM.
PowerPC emulation is a must. Here are some VM platforms that can emulate PowerPC:
QEMU
PearPC
GXemul
PearColator may be of some use (has PPC support I believe):
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pearcolator/
Also, PowerPC support is being worked on for Xen, but currently work is only being done on PPC970, which AFAIK we can't use:
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenPPC/
Out of all the options currently listed, I think GXemul looks the most promising, as it's an active project, emulates PowerPC and has been able to run unmodified operating systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GXemul
Points I'd like to discuss:
1. Any other options missed?
2. What is needed to build a VM for OS4?
3. Value in the project?
Any thoughts?
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The AmigaONE bootROM or the Amiga Kickstart 3.1 image w/ an m68k emulator.
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@downix
Thanks man, helpful as always.
AmigaOne Boot ROM?
http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz:8080/amiga/frameset_html?func=download
Kickstart 3.1
http://www.amigaforever.com/
m68k emulator
I take it this is necessary for OS4 Classic rather than OS4 A1? QEMU has m68k support in user emulation (not sure what that means). Would that be enough?
http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/qemu-doc.html#SEC2
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@downix
You'd have to go the classic route to avoid encouraging piracy.
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UAE under morphOS maby?
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Isn't there also a RISC emulator? :idea:
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Gwion wrote:
UAE under morphOS maby?
There is already an OS4 emulator for MorphOS...
http://amigazeux.net/os4emu/
Interesting thread about it:
http://tinyurl.com/2y3g7w
I suppose we should concentrate on OS4 Classic so that more people would feel comfortable running it emulated. Does anyone know how much access to the m68k processor OS4 Classic needs on boot? If nobody knows, can someone with a suitable hardware setup do some investigating please?
Methuselas wrote:
Isn't there also a RISC emulator? :idea:
Which flavour of RISC?
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HenryCase wrote:
Which flavour of RISC?
Acorn, I believe?? :-?
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I there still no 3DO emulator? That's RISC... And like a half-blooded Amiga!
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Let's emulate PPC cards on classic hardware. ;-)
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@Methuselas
Yes its a Acorn RiscOS Emulator running.
I think it Emulates a StrongARM RiscPC.
(I have a 2 'slice' SA RPC)
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Methuselas wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
Which flavour of RISC?
Acorn, I believe?? :-?
OIC, so it emulates ARM processors. I'm not sure how similar PPC and ARM are, even though they are both RISC architectures. Thanks for mentioning it though, I'm sure plenty of people will find ARM emulation useful (GBA emulator anyone? :-)).
I noticed in the 'Amiga OS4 on old (PPC) Macs' thread that beakster2 was working on an OS4 emulation solution using PearPC. Fingers crossed that works out. (Beakster2, if you are reading this, well done for taking some initiative).
Can anyone explain how virtual machines do their job? Do you have to create an exact copy of hardware in software, or will approximations work?
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AMC258 wrote:
I there still no 3DO emulator? That's RISC... And like a half-blooded Amiga!
Of course there is (http://www.freedo.org/).
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I have spent a bit of time trying to get OS4 loading under PearPC and Qemu. I didn't get very far with either. In order to use Moana on something other than a MacMini 1.5GHz I think we will need the source code.
I think the best way to get OS4 emulation would be to add PPC support to UAE. This would give UAE the ability to emulate an A1200/4000 with a PPC card, and hence boot the OS4 Classic which is available to buy.
This could be done on any platform with PPC emulation code. A modern PC/Mac should be able to easily out perform a 603e under emulation. On a real PPC machine, it could use the real processor and potentially be faster than any of the official hard ware.
PPC emulation code is already available in the Open Source community, so it would just be a case of integrating it into UAE in such a way as to accurately emulate a PPC card. A job for the UAE developers I think.
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I think its just a matter of time before its done.
To emulate OS4.0 is not impossible, to emulate an PPC system is not imposible.
So its just a matter of some clever person to do just that and put it all together.
I will give it a year and we will see an emulated version of some kind that does work.
I can not afford a PPC card, or any thing that will run OS4.0, so for the likes of me and others I feel an emulation will be good.
Its going to happen sooner or later.
BUT if I could afford the money I would buy a PPC card or something that would be good enough to run OS4.0
But as it is a lot of people out there just dont have the money its as simple as that, so emulation comes in at some point. (noy JUST because of the money side of it)
But because it can be done.
WINuae and Amikit is an idea of what can be done.
My signature is my Amiga system, I cant see it getting any better than that because I dont have the money so an emulated system would be great and I would go for that.
There are a lot of people out there who rely on emulated Amiga systems of one sort or another.
I have the real thing and AmiKit, If I am truly honest I use Amikit over the real thing simply becasue its faster more powerfull.
I think the same would be for OS4.0 as an emulation. (depending of your PC that is)
Mike.
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beakster2 wrote:
I think the best way to get OS4 emulation would be to add PPC support to UAE. This would give UAE the ability to emulate an A1200/4000 with a PPC card, and hence boot the OS4 Classic which is available to buy.
That would be the most compatible and fun for sure, but don't think it's just a simple case of adding a PPC emulator thread to UAE... I suspect the PPC has complex timing interactions with both the Amiga and the 68k which have to be met in order for it to work like a PowerUP board :-(
Probably the only person here with even the slightest knowledge on the subject is Piru, and even then I doubt he has the time or the motivation do undertake such a task :-)
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downix wrote:
or the Amiga Kickstart 3.1 image w/ an m68k emulator.
That is incorrect. A small 68k program called Bootloader is used to load the Kickstart directory contents into ram and reboot the machine in PPC only mode. An emulator modified to boot OS4 could do this automatically and negate the need for 68k and KS3.1.
Amiga chipset emulation, on the other hand, does seem to be necessary, at least in my one experience of installing OS4. During installation the only video output I could display was from the RGB connector, my CVPPC seemed to be initialised but did not output any signal.
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Vermont Marijuana Dispensary (http://vermont.dispensaries.org/)
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bloodline wrote:
beakster2 wrote:
I think the best way to get OS4 emulation would be to add PPC support to UAE. This would give UAE the ability to emulate an A1200/4000 with a PPC card, and hence boot the OS4 Classic which is available to buy.
That would be the most compatible and fun for sure, but don't think it's just a simple case of adding a PPC emulator thread to UAE... I suspect the PPC has complex timing interactions with both the Amiga and the 68k which have to be met in order for it to work like a PowerUP board :-(
Those timing interactions are only relevant when the 68K and PPC have to co-exist, and under OS4 the 68K is turned off.
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Digital Vaporizer (http://vaporshop.com)
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@AndrewBell
What frequency is the output of AGA during the OS4 installation? Is it standard 31khz or 15khz?
Thanks,
Jeff
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Jeff wrote:
@AndrewBell
What frequency is the output of AGA during the OS4 installation? Is it standard 31khz or 15khz?
Thanks,
Jeff
15KHz, I had to connect to the TV during install. After I posted about that I looked at the CD startup-sequence, and it seems that my CVPPC was ignored because my Cyberstorm has the last firmware, with the G-Rex cybpci.library. The SS checks for its' presence, and if found will ignore the CVPPC.
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Ford futura (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Futura)
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Thank you for the reply:-)
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I did install OS4 on my A3000 without AGA... In fact, I didn't need the ECS either. My Voodoo 5500 worked from the gitgo.
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AMC258 wrote:
I did install OS4 on my A3000 without AGA... In fact, I didn't need the ECS either. My Voodoo 5500 worked from the gitgo.
When I said AGA might be needed, I actually meant Amiga chipset emuluation might be needed. After a closer look, I found out that my issue was caused by using the last version of the CSPPC firmware without a G-Rex. I didn't plug my Voodoo in until after I had installed OS4.
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Herbal Vaporizers (http://vaporizer.org/forum/herbal-vaporizers/)
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maybe a day we have WinUAE PPC..
sheepshaver emulates a MacOS PPC very well with a P3 1 GHz, as 603e (not MacOSX, but Macos PPC from 8.5 to 9.04)
I think isn't impossibile to add PPC emulation to WinUAE.
Today i think many winuae users want a PPC emulation.
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Yes, thats because if a G-Rex is present, if the install disk tries to initialise a CVPPC, it crashes. Without G-Rex documentation they couldn't fix this.
In most cases, the OS4 install automatically shows up on any connected OS4 compatible gfx card screen.
I'm pretty sure Hyperion would consider any usage of OS4 on an emulator to be against the EULA. Whether or not that stops you is up to you i guess.
I'm also pretty sure the hardware situation will be sorted out.
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Would it be possible, if you already owned an A!, to save the CVPPC information to a file and then use that file with PearPC?
Actually the information must already exist in Moana, has anyone looked at what Moana is supposed to do?