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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: TheMud on December 06, 2007, 05:50:36 PM

Title: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: TheMud on December 06, 2007, 05:50:36 PM
Is it really possible to install Leopard OS X on a normal PC ?

If ... Is my Laptop any good for it..:

AMD Sempron (3800+) 2,2GHz
1GB DDR II RAM
80 GB HD
DVD Burner (Double Layer)
Microsoft Vista Basic
15,4 " TFT
WLAN, Bluetooth inclusive!

And why says my Processor 3800+  (2,2Ghz) ??

or my other Laptop

Intel® Core™ Duo Processor T2450 2.00 GHz (Dual Core)
1GB DDR2-667 RAM
120 GB S-ATA HD
8x DVD Burner (Double Layer)
15,4 " TFT Display
WLAN inclusive
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: RRunner on December 06, 2007, 06:06:48 PM
There are several articles on the internet with step by step instructions on how to do this and I've even seen lists of what hardware is supported. I haven't tried it myself though.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Tahoe on December 06, 2007, 06:09:56 PM
Absolutely not in any "legal" way.

If you really do want to; try using a Core2 CPU, closer to the Apple's CPU, and consider running it in a virtual machine.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: motorollin on December 06, 2007, 06:10:45 PM
Quote
Tahoe wrote:
Absolutely not in any "legal" way.

Why is it illegal?

--
moto
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Trev on December 06, 2007, 06:15:53 PM
Not legal? Go to the store, buy Leopard, patch appropriately, install, done. What's illegal about that? If the required patches (I don't know the details) involve circumventing anything that Apple claims is meant to control access to the work, then yes, it might be illegal. Apple would still have to defend that claim in court, however. Regardless, Apple wants your money.

Plus, you're in Denmark. Look to your own legal system for guidance on how to proceed. The arms of the DMCA and its international treaty cousins may not reach you.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: TheMud on December 06, 2007, 06:20:56 PM
There is no Legal isue to do it in Denmark ... If you buy Software / Cd's / Films you are even legally allowed to make up to 5 copies :-) ... Just wanted to try it. My lappis has to run Vista anyway because of my work...

But at home I only use Mac's ... And Virtuel Amigas :-P
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Tahoe on December 06, 2007, 06:37:46 PM
Quote

motorollin wrote:
Why is it illegal?


From the Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard EULA, Section 2A: "This License allows you to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time."

[that does not mean hand labeling your Dell PC with an Apple sticker :-D]
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: B00tDisk on December 06, 2007, 06:42:02 PM
Quote

Tahoe wrote:
Quote

motorollin wrote:
Why is it illegal?


From the Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard EULA, Section 2A: "This License allows you to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time."

[that does not mean hand labeling your Dell PC with an Apple sticker :-D]


And how do I read that EULA?  E.g., where is it in the package?  (Note to Tahoe: I am not busting your chops at all, just working up to a point).
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: BlackMonk on December 06, 2007, 06:54:02 PM
The EULA may be on a printed piece of paper inside the package.  Yes, you will have to break the shrink-wrap on the package.

However, the Apple store you got it from might still take it back.

Now hurry up and get on your soapbox and do your thing about EULAs and legality and blah blah blah so we can get it over with.  Not targeting you, personally, but I've seen this whining come up time and time again and it just gets old.

At this point, it should be common knowledge amongst anyone at enthusiast websites/forums that there are EULAs inside shrink-wrapped software packages and that stores often don't accept returns on products that have the shrink-wrap broken.

I suppose if one really cared, you could open the package in the store and look for the EULA right in front of the clerk.  Or, look on the vendor's website or call them to find out the terms before purchasing their products.  Or, don't ever buy any software ever again since most commercial products have EULAs like this and you're screwed once you open the package.  Linux forever, opensource yay, etc.

I'm not defending the practice.  Hell, when you buy Vista, you don't even buy the product--you're buying a license to USE it and only on ONE computer EVER, which may be revoked at any time.  It's even more of a pain in the butt to transfer Vista from one physical machine to a different one, if you wanted to try, than it was with XP.  I am wholely against that practice AND the stealth EULAs inside shrinkwrap; some even are only on the installer screen!

It's just that I'm sick of hearing about it time and time again since nothing ever changes.  In the end, people still buy the stuff and still ignore the EULA anyway when it suits them.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Tahoe on December 06, 2007, 06:55:05 PM
It's the screen people blindingly press

(there should also be a printed version in the box, however not owning one I wouldn't be able to tell you for sure)

(or read it here (http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macosx105.pdf); online)
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: EDanaII on December 06, 2007, 07:00:15 PM
osX86 Project (http://www.osx86project.org/).

I've tried installing Leopard on my T30, without success. It is on their "compatibility" list, however, I tried installing a version later than the one that was identified as compatible. It's possible that only that one specific version was. I'll probably try again later.

As to the legality of it all. If I can install it and get it working, I'll gladly purchase a valid copy and pay for the license.

Ed.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Tahoe on December 06, 2007, 07:07:38 PM
And you would still be running it against the EULA.

The version you install on what-ever-but apple hardware involves tinkering with boot code/drivers etc, which is an infringement of copyright laws. OSX checks for specific apple ROM code, if none is present it won't work. No regular PC, physical or virtual has this code.

Yes, I CAN install Vista on several machines and hack it so it works. Yes, I CAN install OSX on a xxx branded PC and use it.

It's just not legal, that's all I said, no matter what way you try to turn it.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: EDanaII on December 06, 2007, 07:14:18 PM
You're confusing legality with contractuality. A contract is a legally binding agreement, but it is not law.

The EULA only states that, by not honoring the agreement, the provider is not obligated to help you. It does not state that you cannot do with it as you please.

Imagine buying a car and signing an agreement that says you can only drive it down odd numbered roads or only roads with names that begin with "Z." No such contract would ever be considered legal because of the ridiculous standard it raises.

But, as I said, the EULA is only an agreement on the providers obligation to help you. Violating the EULA is not breaking the law.

Ed.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Tahoe on December 06, 2007, 07:17:37 PM
Point 2 was, making OSX think it's running on MAC hardware IS copyright infringement.

You should delve a little deeper in your legal system, if a EULA was "just a piece of paper" as everyone seems to think it is we would all be running OSX (legally)
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: EDanaII on December 06, 2007, 07:28:42 PM
Again, you appear to be confused. Copyright infringement is taking someone elses work and selling it as your own. If someone manages to install osX on a PC, they are not violating copyrights, only the EULA. And, in violating the EULA, the only thing they have to worry about is not getting help from the manufacture.

Now, if they installed it on a PC, rebadged it as their own and tried to sell it to the public, THAT would be copyright infringement.

Ed.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: monami on December 06, 2007, 07:28:49 PM
leopard will only be around for a year till apple decide they have amassed 500 whacking improvements justifying a new os... don't waste your money ms give better support than that.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Trev on December 07, 2007, 06:07:55 AM
@Tahoe

The mere presence of terms in an EULA does not necessarily make those terms enforceable. Ultimately, our court system decides on a case-by-case basis what is enforcable and what is not. Very few precedents have been set regarding EULAs. Regardless, it is usually not possible for software publishers to enforce terms which are designed to specifically limit or circumvent the rights of a consumer under copyright or other laws. For example, the right of an end-user to reverse engineer software, short of circumventing copy protection schemes, for the purposes of interoperibility is almost always upheld.

What constitutes "copy protection" is quite arguable, however. For example, Nintendo stopped the import of Gameboy Advance cartridge writers on the premise that the binary representation of the Nintendo logo was a technological measure--a password, in this case--designed to prevent copying and that allowing it to be written to a cartridge constituted circumvention of that measure, even for the purposes of booting perfectly legal software. US customs agreed and began blocking shipments. I don't believe this one ever made it to court.

The fact that Apple is not the market leader weighs heavily in their favor; however, as their market share increases, their control over their products will most likely decrease. Then again, with the "iPod" on the verge of gaining synecdoche status, e.g. Coke, Kleenex, and Xerox, Apple should tread lightly.

Trev
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: persia on December 07, 2007, 02:31:41 PM
Again the EULA debate needs to be put to rest in court.  Unfortunately it will take big money to and a long time fight  Until EULA is dead in court everyone needs to tread lightly.

EULA currently is enforced by the Good Cop/Bad Cop system.  In the same way Microsoft enforces it's "trademarks" on common words.  One set of lawyers comes and says we'll bleed you to death in court, the other set arrives and says we'll buy your name, ID, product for a very generous offer...
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: beakster2 on December 07, 2007, 03:47:32 PM
On my company Laptop I now run Tiger as my primary OS.  I used Norton Ghost to make an image of the windows installation first, then installed that inside VMWare on Tiger.

This means I can still get onto the company domain and get emails and stuff from VMWare but I don't have to use Windows for everything else!

Its fantastic!  I do have a few issues with sound, PCMCIA and wireless, but I've been running like this for 6 months now and very happy.  I wouldn't want to go back to using windows as my primary OS.

If the company IT people knew they wouldn't be best pleased, but all they see is the Windows installation inside VMWare :)
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: AmigaHeretic on December 07, 2007, 04:20:19 PM
@BlackMonk

Quote
At this point, it should be common knowledge amongst anyone at enthusiast websites/forums that there are EULAs inside shrink-wrapped software packages and that stores often don't accept returns on products that have the shrink-wrap broken.


Come on get off your soap box.  Let's be real for a minute here.  At this point, it should be common knowledge amongst anyone at enthusiast websites/forums that NOBODY reads EULAS.  I've been using a computer since the TRS-80 color computer II (not the three the two :-( )   I have never read a complete EULA.

Quote
I suppose if one really cared, you could open the package in the store and look for the EULA right in front of the clerk. Or, look on the vendor's website or call them to find out the terms before purchasing their products. Or, don't ever buy any software ever again since most commercial products have EULAs like this and you're screwed once you open the package. Linux forever, opensource yay, etc.


Ooops, you left out, they could just buy the software and install it anyway. ;-)



@TheMud

I'm pretty sure you are safe from getting sued.  I just can't see Apple going to a judge and saying, "Hey, FTW?  This guy paid us well over $100 for our product AND is using it!!"  GASP!! LOL! :lol:

On the moral side I think you'd be in even better shape. I think you would be one of the few that even "bothered" to purchase it to run on PC as upposed to getting it from a torrent.  So again I think Apple would be in awe of you.

Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: TheMud on December 07, 2007, 06:10:53 PM
*LOL* ... Well Im not scared of getting sued - I live in Denmark and here there a no such thing as forever prison or an electric chair :-D ... I got the 2 Laptops above, a MacBook Pro, a MiniMac, an iMac G4 (FlowerPot), and a brand new 24" iMac...

So one innocent extra install of Leopard I guess is ok :-P

Any ... I have it running now on the Dual Core laptop... But it seems different to use. It runs ok ... But something is different  :-?  .. Think I'll put Vista on it again...
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: EDanaII on December 20, 2007, 07:40:59 PM
I finally got OS X to run on my IBM T30. Now I'm free! FREE!!! Free forever from M$ domination! Muahahahaha!!!

OK, maybe not, but I can dream can't I? ;-)

So far, it runs nicely. I'm posting from it now. I think I'll try it for a month and if everything works OK, I'll happily purchase a license for it.

Ed.

P.S. Let the lawsuites begin! ;-)
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: TheMud on December 20, 2007, 08:58:39 PM
Got some hints and tricks and libs and thingys from someone who knows it all on thepiratebay.com, and now my stinkynormallaptop runs so great with Leopard :-O ... Im thrilled... It's running 24/7 and perfect :-)
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: EDanaII on December 22, 2007, 04:32:32 PM
So it's running without any problems whatsoever? Kudos.

I'm finding some issues: some apps fail, running under VESA, no Airport support. But, other than that, I'm finding the experience very pleasing. Certainly smoother than XP. Imagine that.

If I can get these issues ironed out, I'll definitely buy that license.

Ed.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: monami on December 22, 2007, 06:15:36 PM
hi,

what do you get to run that you don't get from ordinary linux considering that a licence must cost you £75? just curious...
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Tripitaka on December 22, 2007, 07:24:20 PM
I was stunned to see that the Leopard  EULA stated the machine to be run on as having to be "Apple Labelled".
WHAT!! That's bloody lunacy, the Leopard website itself gives the requirements for an Intel machine and I would consider that the approach of the site IMPLIES that you could run Leopard on an appropriate machine, Apple branded or not.  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-? :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-? etc.....
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Tripitaka on December 22, 2007, 07:26:04 PM
For the record, I was damned impressed by Leopard.  :-D
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: EDanaII on December 23, 2007, 04:17:43 PM
@ monami

Quote
what do you get to run that you don't get from ordinary linux considering that a licence must cost you £75? just curious...


* I'm not fond of Linux.
* To make an honest man out of me.
* To support an alternative OS.
* For professionally supported apps.
* A sharp stick it in M$'s eye.
* A chance to encourage more development.
* A smoother more stable experience.
* A More competitive environment.
* To convince Apple to open their architecture to competition.
* To make Bill Gates cry.

Ed.
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: monami on December 23, 2007, 04:35:22 PM
8-) yeah some good reasoning there...
but have apple followed ms with the kind of one os one pc and activation now? i suppose an official version on pc would suit me for music making. i think podxt has drivers too. and at least their wouldn't be as many viri out there also curiosity factor. do you need to run a virus scanner though?
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: bloodline on December 23, 2007, 04:43:46 PM
Quote

EDanaII wrote:
So it's running without any problems whatsoever? Kudos.

I'm finding some issues: some apps fail, running under VESA, no Airport support. But, other than that, I'm finding the experience very pleasing. Certainly smoother than XP. Imagine that.

If I can get these issues ironed out, I'll definitely buy that license.

Ed.


The trouble is that, after you've used MacOS X on a regular PC for a bit, you'll almost certainly end up buying a Mac... It's quite a cunning strategy by Apple... See if you can figure out how they did it :-)
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on December 23, 2007, 05:13:24 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

EDanaII wrote:
So it's running without any problems whatsoever? Kudos.

I'm finding some issues: some apps fail, running under VESA, no Airport support. But, other than that, I'm finding the experience very pleasing. Certainly smoother than XP. Imagine that.

If I can get these issues ironed out, I'll definitely buy that license.

Ed.


The trouble is that, after you've used MacOS X on a regular PC for a bit, you'll almost certainly end up buying a Mac... It's quite a cunning strategy by Apple... See if you can figure out how they did it :-)
Nowadays, the only reason why I do not have a mac, is that I cannot afford it. When I am finished studying, and got myself a job, I'll buy a nice slimline macintosh laptop, I think, or a big desktop  macintosh to use as a media-centre/emulator/productivity machine. Really, nowadays we can, again, use the computer without Microsoft. :-)
Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: KThunder on December 23, 2007, 05:50:07 PM
companies can claim and order anything they want in a eula. they always put the disclaimer in that some or all of this eula may not apply to you. they can claim anything they want knowing that there is no way to enforce it.

btw the eula is not a fully legally enforced document. you dont sign an agreement. and people under 18 can legaly install an os courts would make a distinction between a legal document and an agreement such as this.

Title: Re: Leopard on a "Normal" Pc ?
Post by: EDanaII on December 23, 2007, 07:56:11 PM
@ monami

Quote
do you need to run a virus scanner though?


Not yet, but then I've only just been trying it for a few days. Once I'm convinced I can use it, I'll probably spring for one.


@ bloodline

Quote
The trouble is that, after you've used MacOS X on a regular PC for a bit, you'll almost certainly end up buying a Mac...


Are you kidding? :-) I would have bought a Mac years ago but for the overpriced hardware. Crap, even after M$ decided to stick me in the shorts, I was hesitant to spring for an Intel based Mac. But then that's what eventually led me to find the OSx86 project (http://www.osx86project.org/): M$ denying me a license to the software I rightfully paid for...

Quote
It's quite a cunning strategy by Apple... See if you can figure out how they did it


I actually see it the other way around, just as IBM lost the PC market to clone manufacturers, this is another crack in the door that (I hope) will force Apple to reopen to their clone market.

But then, I've always considered Apple closing that particular door to be anything but smart.

Ed.