Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: motorollin on December 04, 2007, 06:28:54 PM
-
Now I'm only in Uni 3 days a week instead of 4, it's cheaper for me to buy tickets each day than the season ticket I bought in September. I've worked out that if I surrender the season ticket I'll save the best part of a £1000. So now I'm thinking of two options: put it in the bank for a rainy day, or spend a fair chunk of it on a CSPPC (if I can find one) so I can actually run the copy of OS4 I've got coming my way.
Any opinions on how good OS4 actually is on a classic Amiga (compared to OS3.9), and whether it's worth doing this, would be very much appreciated. Also, I have no idea how much CSPPCs are going for these days, so some guide price would be good.
--
moto
-
If you bought a CSPPC and sold your CSMK3 you would probably just come short a few hundred $
Good luck finding a CSPPC though......
Or you could just put it in the bank and see if OS4 gets some new hardware sometime.
-
OS 4 is a HUGE improvement over OS 3.9. IMHO if you enjoy using the classic and want to continue to do this...if you can secure a CS PPC that would be cool. I am sure you will like OS 4.
If you aren't so tied to the classic you may want to try and hold out for the possibility of new hardware to run OS4 or a used AmigaONE.
For me I enjoy using the Classic hardware...there is a certain feeling about it that you just don't really get with the new hardware. If the underlying hardware isn't there it really isn't the same experience for me - even though the same OS may be running.
Amithlon and of course the MicroA1 I have are pretty good, though :) MicroA1 is very speedy on OS4!
-
@spihunter
Oh yeah, I forgot I would have a MKIII to sell :lol: A £150 difference sounds like more of an upgrade and less of a massive investment.
@HammerD
Yes I do like the classic hardware. But if OS4 was able to run on non-Amiga hardware, I would still do that as a reliable, modern OS4 machine and keep my MKIII A4000 for classic usage.
A couple of questions which will sway my decision. Is OS4 100% backwards compatible? Put simply, if I run a 68k WHDLoad game from OS4 classic, will it work?
--
moto
-
A couple of questions which will sway my decision. Is OS4 100% backwards compatible? Put simply, if I run a 68k WHDLoad game from OS4 classic, will it work?
It might. You may have to disable Petunia using a blacklist and run it under an interpreted mode or try EUAE to get it to work. If it does work on the first try it should scream!
There are a few gotchas involved in using the Petunia JIT compiler. I don't think it supports vector base relocation like WHDLoad requires.
-
I'm guessing Petunia is the OS4 68k emulator? How does it perform compared to a real 060/50? And I'm also assuming that blacklisting it will make it run using the real 68k CPU instead of the emulated one? Are there any issues with custom chip access from OS4?
If someone with OS4 classic could try a WHDLoad game and report back it would be great.
--
moto
-
motorollin wrote:
I'm guessing Petunia is the OS4 68k emulator? How does it perform compared to a real 060/50? And I'm also assuming that blacklisting it will make it run using the real 68k CPU instead of the emulated one?
I doubt it, I can't see how OS4 could use the real 68k... I expect it falls back to an interpretor, which probably supports more CPU features!
-
This is assuming you find a CyberstormPPC in working order which also doesn't competitively go through the roof on eBay.
It's annoying I've got the A4000, the Mediator 4000Di and the PCI cards all ready but no CyberstormPPC.
Is it not possible to upgrade the Cyberstorm you've already got I wonder?
-
@motorollin
I read somewhere WHDload doesn't work under OS4, the easiest solution to setup a dual boot partition for OS 3.9, OS4, I believe Amigakit is developing a dual boot loader too :-)
-
@bloodline
Why shouldn't it? OS3.x is a 68k OS and can access a real PPC processor, so why shouldn't a PPC OS be able to access the real 68k processor?
@Akiko
Hmmm, that may affect my decision about whether to upgrade, since I use my Amiga mainly as a classic games machine.
--
moto
-
Why shouldn't it? OS3.x is a 68k OS and can access a real PPC processor, so why shouldn't a PPC OS be able to access the real 68k processor?
I thought it was common knowledge that OS4 classic doesn't use the 68k CPU on the accelerator - I don't know why they did it this way but I can definitely tell you THEY DID. Sorry.
-
Maybe common knowledge, but I didn't know :-) So how does Petunia compare with an 060/50?
--
moto
-
Stunned.
I can't believe there is something Moto didn't know.
:-o :lol:
-
Heh, that's kind but my knowledge is tiny compared to some people's here :-)
--
moto
-
Its time for the whdload team to make wdload os4 freindly :)
If its possible :)
-
motorollin wrote:
@bloodline
Why shouldn't it? OS3.x is a 68k OS and can access a real PPC processor, so why shouldn't a PPC OS be able to access the real 68k processor?
Actually OS3.x can't access the PPC, which is why you need to have another kernel running in parallel, i.e. PowerUP or WarpOS. Those two old solutions were terrible, the currenlt OS4 approach (which is similar to the original MacOS PPC/68k approach) is a much better idea!
@Akiko
Hmmm, that may affect my decision about whether to upgrade, since I use my Amiga mainly as a classic games machine.
If I were to be mainly using my machine for games... I'd not bother with either a PPC or an OS upgrade... it yould be more fun to get a couple of second hand A500's instead and run all the machines at the same time :-D
-
bloodline wrote:
Actually OS3.x can't access the PPC, which is why you need to have another kernel running in parallel, i.e. PowerUP or WarpOS.
Ahhh I see. For some reason I always thought that PUP/WOS were optional extras. I understand your point now. By that reasoning, could a 68k kernel run alongside OS4 to allow access to the real 68k processor?
bloodline wrote:
If I were to be mainly using my machine for games... I'd not bother with either a PPC or an OS upgrade...
I know you're probably right. But I want OS4. I don't know why - I just do :lol:
bloodline wrote:
it yould be more fun to get a couple of second hand A500's instead and run all the machines at the same time :-D
At the same time, you say? :crazy:
--
moto
-
@Steve
My thoughts exactly. Maybe it's to try to encourage coders to either modify their code to be compatible with OS4's emulation or port them to PPC, with a view to move away from 68k architecture entirely.
[EDIT]
Thread is teh b0rked...
[/EDIT]
--
moto
-
Thats not really much good for software that needs to continue to be compatible with 68k machines though for os3.9 users.
-
It doesn't stop the developer maintaining a 3.9 compatible version. The way I look at it is this: Where would Apple be if they had clung to ancient architectures? Certainly not the success story they are today. There comes a time when the OS has to move on, otherwise it becomes bloated (Windows) or antiquated (AmigaOS). And lets face it, computers are so fast now that if you really want to run classic apps there is always emulation.
--
moto
-
motorollin wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Actually OS3.x can't access the PPC, which is why you need to have another kernel running in parallel, i.e. PowerUP or WarpOS.
Ahhh I see. For some reason I always thought that PUP/WOS were optional extras. I understand your point now. By that reasoning, could a 68k kernel run alongside OS4 to allow access to the real 68k processor?
That depends upon how OS4 is designed... but any solution like that will cause all the same problems that WOS and PUP had... Running 603 and a 68k on the same bus and trying to get them to communicate is just a nightmare! They can't really run at the same time...
bloodline wrote:
If I were to be mainly using my machine for games... I'd not bother with either a PPC or an OS upgrade...
I know you're probably right. But I want OS4. I don't know why - I just do :lol:
Yes, my BlizzPPC and Bvision certainly would like to run OS4... but I can't justify it at this time. To be fair I can't really justify keeping my PPC Amiga set up any more :-(
bloodline wrote:
it yould be more fun to get a couple of second hand A500's instead and run all the machines at the same time :-D
At the same time, you say? :crazy:
--
moto
Yeah!!! Now that's what I call FUN!!!
-
bloodline wrote:
motorollin wrote:
could a 68k kernel run alongside OS4 to allow access to the real 68k processor?
That depends upon how OS4 is designed... but any solution like that will cause all the same problems that WOS and PUP had... Running 603 and a 68k on the same bus and trying to get them to communicate is just a nightmare! They can't really run at the same time...
Fair enough. Looks like the developers made a good call disabling it.
bloodline wrote:
To be fair I can't really justify keeping my PPC Amiga set up any more :-(
You don't have to - you've already got it. I'm trying to justify buying one :-)
--
moto
-
motorollin wrote:
bloodline wrote:
motorollin wrote:
could a 68k kernel run alongside OS4 to allow access to the real 68k processor?
That depends upon how OS4 is designed... but any solution like that will cause all the same problems that WOS and PUP had... Running 603 and a 68k on the same bus and trying to get them to communicate is just a nightmare! They can't really run at the same time...
Fair enough. Looks like the developers made a good call disabling it.
Yeah, I think so... It's a shame Phase5 even put a 68k on the board at all... Instead, it would have been better if they had just run a 68k Emulator as a task on the PowerUP kernel and run AmigaOS in emultion.
bloodline wrote:
To be fair I can't really justify keeping my PPC Amiga set up any more :-(
You don't have to - you've already got it. I'm trying to justify buying one :-)
--
moto
But watching the price these boards are going for is making my PPC and BVision combo an asset I can't really afford to keep... especially since I really don't need them any more... The only thing that keep me hanging on is sentimental value!
-
@bloodline
Quote:
Yes, my BlizzPPC and Bvision certainly would like to run OS4... but I can't justify it at this time. To be fair I can't really justify keeping my PPC Amiga set up any more
--------------------------------------------------------------
You are right! sell it to me :-) and iff you want.........I will sell it back to you in 2 years........
-
leirbag28 wrote:
@bloodline
Quote:
Yes, my BlizzPPC and Bvision certainly would like to run OS4... but I can't justify it at this time. To be fair I can't really justify keeping my PPC Amiga set up any more
--------------------------------------------------------------
You are right! sell it to me :-) and iff you want.........I will sell it back to you in 2 years........
The thing is, my A1200 is all I really have left from my Teenage years... so I cling to it with an unhealthy obsession.
-
bloodline wrote:
It's a shame Phase5 even put a 68k on the board at all... Instead, it would have been better if they had just run a 68k Emulator as a task on the PowerUP kernel and run AmigaOS in emulation.
It's cos all classic games and demo's which banged the hardware directly would not have worked.
It was the best and only call to make back then.
Note: It is still true today. AFAIK OS4 cannot run the majority of classic games, demos, WHDload etc. because the 68k CPU is completely disabled and the 68k emulator doesn't interact with the classic hardware to the level needed. A reboot to OS3.x is required :-(
-
alexh wrote:
bloodline wrote:
It's a shame Phase5 even put a 68k on the board at all... Instead, it would have been better if they had just run a 68k Emulator as a task on the PowerUP kernel and run AmigaOS in emulation.
It's cos all classic games and demo's which banged the hardware directly would not have worked.
It was the best and only call to make back then.
Note: It is still true today. AFAIK OS4 cannot run the majority of classic games, demos, WHDload etc. because the 68k CPU is completely disabled and the 68k emulator doesn't interact with the classic hardware to the level needed. A reboot to OS3.x is required :-(
But those Games/Demos would run fine on the 68020 already in the A1200... Just disable the PPC card when you don't need the CPU power.
-
Yeah, an emulation layer for the 68k would have been tits. AmiJoe would have been exactly that, had it been finished.
Anyway, this is essentially how MOS works on classic PPC hardware today. F.e, a lot of demos run much better because of the 68k emulation (faster than any real 68k as I understand it), yet they still have access to the AGA chipset. Pretty cool. Must be the only way to watch Starstruck on classic hardware without stutters. :-)
-
bloodline wrote:
But those Games/Demos would run fine on the 68020 already in the A1200... Just disable the PPC card when you don't need the CPU power.
It means you have to reboot, run the game or demo and then reboot. Not very user friendly.
-D- wrote:
F.e, a lot of demos run much better because of the 68k emulation (faster than any real 68k as I understand it), yet they still have access to the AGA chipset.
Is that true? I know that Trance (the MorphOS 68k emulator) can be faster than a regular 68k but do the majority of games and demos even run with it?
I dont know, I dont have a PPC.
The demo you mention is a very late demo, 2006, and may have been written with MorphOS in mind. Not that I am saying it was... it just might have been.
Curious.
-
alexh wrote:
bloodline wrote:
But those Games/Demos would run fine on the 68020 already in the A1200... Just disable the PPC card when you don't need the CPU power.
It means you have to reboot, run the game or demo and then reboot. Not very user friendly.
If the Game/Demo hit the hardware in such a way that it couldn't use an emulated 68K you would have to reboot anyway...
Anyway, point well made... One could simply run MorphOS for Classic Amigas... that is Free, right? Ok then!
-
I'm sure Starstruck ran on my 060 without stutters.
You have got me thinking now.
I will have to try it again tomorrow.
-
-D- wrote:
F.e, a lot of demos run much better because of the 68k emulation (faster than any real 68k as I understand it), yet they still have access to the AGA chipset.
Is that true? I know that Trance (the MorphOS 68k emulator) can be faster than a regular 68k but do the majority of games and demos even run with it?
I dont know, I dont have a PPC.[/quote]
Yeah, such is the word on morphzone. I'm not sure about compatibility, but I've heard mention of several demos running this way, and running a little smoother due to the increased 68k (emulated) horsepower.
The demo you mention is a very late demo, 2006, and may have been written with MorphOS in mind. Not that I am saying it was... it just might have been.
Curious.
AFAIK it was intended for real 68060 and AGA, but you never know. I imagine it would run better that way since it seems it needs a little more CPU.
@TiredOLife
I have yet try Starstruck above 50 MHz, but it does seem to bet a bit choppy here and there at that speed. I'll have to to some more checking sometime soon also, maybe there was something else about my config it didn't like. I'm hoping it does run better though, as I bought my last 1260 card almost exclusively to run some recent TBL releases, LOL.
-
@Moto
Going off further comments, it sounds like you're only real option would be to dual-boot. Well, that's if you really HAVE to own and run OS4.
I personally think this is a lot of hassle. I mean.. how much lifespan do these PPC cards have left in them anyway?
-
@-D-
Starstruck run perfectly on my A4000 (see sig) - no stutter at all.
@Fixer
The prospect of dual-booting isn't ideal. It would basically mean I would boot in to OS4, look at it and think "that's nice" then boot back in to 3.9 to play some games :roll:
What do existing OS4 users use their OS4 installation for?
--
moto
-
Difference between cost of season ticket and daily train fare > credit card balance + iPhone
Monthly saving of credit card payments > iPhone contract
Hmmmm.....
--
moto
-
motorollin wrote:
iPhone contract
What's that? ;-)
-
It's the thing that gives me unlimited data :-)
--
moto
-
@alexh
Is that true? I know that Trance (the MorphOS 68k emulator) can be faster than a regular 68k but do the majority of games and demos even run with it?
Trance is as compatible as the static emulation, pretty much. Trance has no blacklists for example.
Obviously apps that use self modifying code will fail, but those would fail with >68010 CPUs anyway.
I'd estimate many games / demos don't work because they hit too low level HW, not because of the lacking CPU emulation.
-
You could always run EUAE on OS4, but god that would crawl on a 603e or 604
-
motorollin wrote:
It's the thing that gives me unlimited data :-)
--
moto
It's worth it!
-
Running UAE on a BlizzPPC is a very traumatic experience and not one I'll bother to repeat!
-
So it looks like I have 2 options:
1. Get a CSPPC
a. Use OS4 for whatever people use OS4 for
b. Use OS3.9 for games
2. Keep my MKIII
a. Miss out on whatever people use OS4 for
b. Use OS3.9 for games
c. Get an iPhone :-D
So really what I would like to know is this: OS4 users, what do you actually do in OS4? What tasks do you perform in OS4 that you can't do in OS3.9, or perform significantly better in OS4 than they do in OS3.9?
--
moto
-
I think you know the answer!
-
What, the answer to "what do people do in OS4"? Is it "not much"? ;-)
--
moto
-
No bloodline means get an Iphone :lol:
-
Well Moto, didn't you used to own a PegII with MorphOS on it? What kind of things did you used to do on that?
You might even be able to answer your own question here. ;-)
-
JJ wrote:
No bloodline means get an Iphone :lol:
I'm getting too predictable! :-)
-
Yes but the peg2 os 1ghz, then mplayer works fine on all movies files
and dvd.
But this wont work on the classic as it is too slow.
So what to use OS4 for ? Instead of still use 3.9.
-
krize wrote:
Yes but the peg2 os 1ghz, then mplayer works fine on all movies files
and dvd.
But this wont work on the classic as it is too slow.
So what to use OS4 for ? Instead of still use 3.9.
My personal preference would be AfA on OS3.x... With the current rate of AROS progress, it holds a large degree of excitment for me!
-
JJ wrote:
No bloodline means get an Iphone :lol:
He's the only person in the country who has one :lol:
(kidding :-D)
@ moto
Don't listen to that iPhone salesman - get yourself a PPC ;-)
-
@Fixer
Yes you're right, I did used to own a PegII with MorphOS. And I spent a great deal of time configuring it to look and work just like Workbench :roll: In fact, I used my PegII for playing games (using UAE) and surfing the web (under iBrowse). While it was a fun novelty to have a fast, new Amiga-like system, I soon realised that there was nothing I used the PegII for that I can't do under Workbench 3.9.
@bloodline
I also love AfA. But currently it only seems to offer cosmetic improvements to 3.9. If OS4 will actually allow me to do things I can't do with 3.9 then I will consider the CSPPC.
--
moto
-
motorollin wrote:
So it looks like I have 2 options:
1. Get a CSPPC
a. Use OS4 for whatever people use OS4 for
b. Use OS3.9 for games
If you mainly use your Amiga for games and other retro activities (demos, playing around with old apps - stuff like that) then you better forget about OS4 right now. The limited backwards compatability of OS4 will be a problem for you.
OS4 is for people that (try to) use their Amiga as a modern desktop computer. It runs existing apps faster (slightly faster, it's still just a 200 Mhz CPU), it offers lots of small improvements for everyday use (like the context sensitive popup menus on Workbench, a competent screen manager, AA font display, very good Postscript and PDF viewers, the best TCP stack available to Amiga users etc.) and the amount of utilities and small but useful Unix ports available to you increases a lot.
Some Examples:
After switching to OS4 classic, I'm now running a native version of YAM. If you, like me, often get emails with big attachments, the increased performance of YAM alone makes OS4 a useful purchase.
Thanks to AntiWord and AmiPDF I can now view and print Word documents (including pictures and all formatting) by double-clicking them. I have replaced most of my smaller Apps with PPC native equivalents which are still actively developed, offer more features or run more stable etc. (TuneNet, Organiser, WookieChat, AmiFTP, YAM, AmiDVD...).
I'm now using ppc native, up-to-date and usually more stable ports of dozens of small converter tools from the Unix world. My 68k apps run faster than they did on OS3. Last but not least, the whole thing looks and feels like a product from this century again, not like a badly hacked and patched leftover from the eighties ;)
These are just examples, and I know the list doesn't sound all that impressive - the point is: If you're using AmigaOS daily, you're going to love all these small improvements, they do make a difference.
If you're not an AmigaOS user but a nostalgic Amiga enthusiast (a retro gamer, a hardware fetishist, a member of the demo scene...) or if the computing power of a Cyberstorm doesn't meet your requirements, you're going to be dissapointed.
-
If you want to see what you can run on OS4, why not pay a visit to OS4Depot (http://os4depot.net/) and see what's been ported to it already.
-
Thanks for all the responses. I think I've come to the conclusion that OS4 doesn't offer enough to me yet to justify the expense of the upgrade. I just know I'm going to end up feeling disappointed, since as cgutjahr so succinctly put it, I am a retro gamer and hardware fetishist, not someone trying to use my Amiga as my main computer.
Thanks again!
--
moto