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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Jeff on December 02, 2007, 07:21:12 AM

Title: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Jeff on December 02, 2007, 07:21:12 AM
I have 3 Amiga 1000's and one of them came to me with Kickstart 1.2 in Rom. Here is what the boot Roms look like. Did the dealer do this, or did it come from the factory like this? The labels look original to me.

Amiga 1000 Kickstart Roms (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2236=6)

I would like to program a set of 1.3 Eproms for one of my other machines. Is this a simple ODD-EVEN Split with a byte swap (from a 256k binary file) between a pair of 27256 Eproms or is it more difficult than that?

What about 2.x or 3.x, I assume that would take additional hardware as it is a 512k Kickstart?  If so, has anyone here successfully built this hack?

I have the stuff to erase and program my own Eproms as well as legit originals of all the OS versions (see my photo album). It would be nice to retire my Kickstart floppies:-)

Thanks for any advice.
Jeff
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: CLS2086 on December 02, 2007, 01:11:05 PM
Hi,
would you check the difference between your mobo and this photo :
http://amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a1000mbrev6.jpg
It seems that you have just 2 straps around W2 and W4 that enable the presence of the ROMs.
If you disable these straps, do you get back to the good old KICKSTART hand's screen ?

Try to dump the 2 roms, it's the only way to know if it's splitted by :
1st method : 16 bits word splitted in 2x 8bits word (1st in EVEN, 2nd in ODD... or may be the inverse !)
2nd method : simply divided in the 2 roms.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Zac67 on December 02, 2007, 01:23:03 PM
68k is big-endian, so the even address bytes are the high, odd the low bytes. The ROMs must be split in two ways byte-wise and in half (FC0000-FDFFFF and FE0000-FFFFFF).
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Jeff on December 02, 2007, 03:42:33 PM
Thanks! I'll do some more checking and get back with the info. The thing is, it looks like the extra pair of Eproms that were added are in locations U2N and U2P and I think they are soldered in on my board (not sure why they didn't use sockets). I may not go to the trouble to remove them just to dump them. I'll probably just start with another motherboard and some blanks Eproms using Zac67's information and see if it works first. I know I won't fry anything if the data is programmed wrong the first time or two. Good thing I have a few 1000's:-)

@CLS2086
Good eyes! I hadn't even noticed the 2 jumpers.

Jeff
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: CLS2086 on December 02, 2007, 04:24:02 PM
I hope you'll get success in your research, i'm not sure that would get better than kick 1.3. And I also think that you'll need to dump the 2 others roms.

I wonder about the 2 jumpers, if they are "open" may it turn back to a "standard" A1000 ?
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: rkauer on December 02, 2007, 09:23:17 PM
 Just a hint: the earlier versions of Amiga itself (= A1000, 500 and 600) have only one ROM chip, even for 3.1 version.

 So they use a "special" version of the ROM, without some functionalities (SCSI.device for A1000/500, for example).

 Try to find a 3.1 ROM image suitable for your A1000.:eureka:
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Zac67 on December 02, 2007, 09:38:27 PM
2.x+ need 512K - you need larger EPROMs and make sure the pinout is OK.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: djbase on December 02, 2007, 11:56:27 PM
Quote
What about 2.x or 3.x, I assume that would take additional hardware as it is a 512k Kickstart?  If so, has anyone here successfully built this hack?


I have an adapter which replaces Even/Odd and gives you a socket for a normal A500 Kickrom.

Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 12:52:07 AM
So those 4 sockets are for ROM upgrades???  I guess they are 27C512 chips?
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2007, 01:35:03 AM
@CLS2086
I pulled the jumpers at locations W2 and W4 and the machine won't boot (black screen), put them back in and it boots to a Workbench 1.2 prompt.

@DJBase
PM Sent for information about your adapter.

@Everyone
I guess the next step would be to pull the chips at locations U5N and U5P (since they are socketed) and see if they compare to the same chips in my other machine by reading them in to the eprom programmer. If they are the same and I can't find DJBases adapter, then I'll start working on some eproms for the empty locations in my other machines or build my own adapter.

Thanks,
Jeff
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: amigaksi on December 03, 2007, 02:45:39 AM
>I would like to program a set of 1.3 Eproms for one of my other machines. Is this a simple ODD-EVEN Split with a byte swap (from a 256k binary file) between a pair of 27256 Eproms or is it more difficult than that?

I programmed the amiga end of MPDOS into the ROMs of an Amiga 1000 using a standard a1000 motherboard (picture as given by CLS2086).  I used a pair of 27C256.  The ROM on the left in the picture contains the even bytes (D8..D15) and the ROM on the right contains the odd bytes (D0..D7).


Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 07:25:03 AM
a 27c256 is a 32k chip.  So how are 4 chips holding Kickstart 1.2? (256k)
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 07:39:50 AM
You know, these 4 chips looked familiar, so I just checked my Amiga chip stash bin and guess what?  I have these 4 chips and I did not know what they were for!  I copied them with my programmer.  So what do I need to do to get this working on my A1000????  Is there a way I can test the images to see if they are a valid kickstart?
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Piru on December 03, 2007, 07:59:01 AM
Quote
Is there a way I can test the images to see if they are a valid kickstart?

Merge the files and check the contents, look for "AMIGA ROM Operating System"?
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 08:23:42 AM
Tried and could not get it to work. (merged odd/even and combined files)

-edit-
I was right, these chips are 27C512!!!



Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Piru on December 03, 2007, 08:45:44 AM
Hmmmm, it looks like KS 1.2 ROM, at least the fe0000 half, but there's something rather strange stuff there. "intuition 33.702 (30 Sep 1986)" clearly suggests KS 1.2, but other stuff doesn't match.

Ah, the new archive is ok. That's KS 1.2 (33.180).

Which reminds me, you should probably take the archive down... :-)
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: mark_k on December 03, 2007, 09:38:12 AM
Hi Jeff,

Coincidentally, I was reading through my copy of the Commodore-Amiga 2nd Annual Developers Conference Notes (from 1986) this morning.

There are two articles which cover installing Kickstart EPROMs in 2-layer A1000 boards. There are several different methods, two of which remap the old Kickstart WOM/RAM to $F80000 (you use an AddMem program to manually add the memory at $F80000-$FBFFFF).

I'm anyone wants I can scan or type up the relevant pages. That should help a lot with your understanding of what's involved and the different options.

The EPROMs on your A1000 board look quite professional. Maybe they were done by a dealer, or maybe Commodore supplied the EPROMs to registered developers???


Update: Reading some old Usenet postings, it was mentioned that a company called CMI marketed a ROM conversion kit for the A1000. That probably used the same method as in the Commodore instructions, and included a set of EPROMs (presumably under license from Commodore). Maybe that's what you have in your machine?


-- M
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2007, 11:37:05 AM
@TJLazer
Thank You, looks like you were right!

@mark_k
I would like to read it. Let me know.

Thank You,
Jeff

BTW It looks like I may be purchasing the Amiga 1000 Kickstart adapter from DJBase.  I'll hold off a couple weeks and see if he makes some more. If that falls through then I'll continue on with the eproms.

Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Crumb on December 03, 2007, 12:40:31 PM
Quote

Just a hint: the earlier versions of Amiga itself (= A1000, 500 and 600) have only one ROM chip, even for 3.1 version.

So they use a "special" version of the ROM, without some functionalities (SCSI.device for A1000/500, for example).


That's not true because starting from KS 37.300 (Rom 2.05) all A500/A600/A2000 roms include working scsi.device for A600.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Piru on December 03, 2007, 12:45:24 PM
Indeed. The difference between 1 and 2 ROM chip setup is the 16bit vs 32bit wide access to the ROM.

My understanding is that A500/A2000/A600 3.1 ROM should work fine with A1000 too, assuming you can hack it (either 512KB ROM hack, 512KB WOM hack, or 256KB RAM + 256KB WOM + sw hack).
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: BuzzBrain on December 03, 2007, 01:34:08 PM
@Jeff
BTW It looks like I may be purchasing the Amiga 1000 Kickstart adapter from DJBase.
---------------------------------------------------'
Do you have more infomation about this kickstart adapter from DJBase? any tread, link or something?

Thanks :)




Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 02:58:03 PM
@Piru

Did you merge the roms to make a valid KS 1.2 file?  How did you do it?
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Piru on December 03, 2007, 03:38:18 PM
@TjLaZer
Code: [Select]
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
  if (argc == 4)
  {
    FILE *f1 = fopen(argv[1], &quot;rb&quot;);
    FILE *f2 = fopen(argv[2], &quot;rb&quot;);
    FILE *f3 = fopen(argv[3], &quot;wb&quot;);
    if (f1 && f2 && f3)
    {
      for (;;)
      {
        int a, b;
        a = fgetc(f1);
        b = fgetc(f2);
        if (a == EOF || b == EOF)
        {
          break;
        }
        fputc(a, f3);
        fputc(b, f3);
      }
    }
    return EXIT_SUCCESS;
  }
  fprintf(stderr, &quot;usage %s: infile1 infile2 outfile\n&quot;, argv[0]);
  return EXIT_FAILURE;
}

Code: [Select]

p@abit:~$ gcc -Wall -O2 merge.c -o merge    
p@abit:~$ ./merge "A1000 U5N FC-EVEN.bin" "A1000 U5P FC-ODD.bin" fc.rom
p@abit:~$ ./merge "A1000 U2N FE-EVEN.bin" "A1000 U2P FE-ODD.bin" fe.rom
p@abit:~$ cat fc.rom fe.rom > ks12.rom                                
p@abit:~$ md5sum ks12.rom
85ad74194e8[censored]de1a9443b7a  ks12.rom
p@abit:~$
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: da9000 on December 03, 2007, 04:35:57 PM
Quote

Piru wrote:
Code: [Select]

85ad74194e8[censored]de1a9443b7a  ks12.rom


OK Piru, fess up! This is not just a simple hash collision! You rigged the md5sum!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 04:54:44 PM
Well I tried to use WinHEX to do it manually and it did not come out right, was close but not valid. (I could see the copyright texts, etc but some letters were off a tad.)

I will try to install this in one of my spare A1000's.  It would be cool to have Kickstart 1.2 in ROM.  I would also like to try and do Kickstart 1.3, if I can figure out how to split the files properly!
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 06:04:12 PM
Quote
I pulled the jumpers at locations W2 and W4 and the machine won't boot (black screen), put them back in and it boots to a Workbench 1.2 prompt.


I think that will not work because I believe the two chips at locations U5N and U5P are boot ROMs for the kickstart disk.  By removing the jumpers the machine does not know how to load kickstart as it might be expecting the boot roms instead of half of Kickstart 1.2!
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 06:45:01 PM
Quote
DJBase wrote: I have an adapter which replaces Even/Odd and gives you a socket for a normal A500 Kickrom.


Can you elaborate on your adaptor?  Does it plug into the 4 sockets on the MB and provide a single A500/2000 style ROM socket? I might be interested in one.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: djbase on December 03, 2007, 07:07:25 PM
Quote

TjLaZer wrote:

Can you elaborate on your adaptor?  Does it plug into the 4 sockets on the MB and provide a single A500/2000 style ROM socket? I might be interested in one.


It needs only 2 sockets (like U5N and U5P) on the MB and provides a single A500/2000 style ROM socket.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on December 03, 2007, 11:08:24 PM
Thanks, how much for 1?

Also, are the other 2 sockets just extras?  Like in this set of 4 ROMs that I have.  Not sure how you can go from 4 sockets to 2 and it working.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: CLS2086 on December 04, 2007, 06:58:01 PM
Hum, it sounds interesting to rebuild some of these adapters !
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Zac67 on December 04, 2007, 07:49:42 PM
I think I remember the 4 sockets being two pairs with different pinouts each for different chip types (mask ROM vs. EPROM).
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: amigaksi on December 06, 2007, 07:22:59 AM
>There are two articles which cover installing Kickstart EPROMs in 2-layer A1000 boards. There are several different methods, two of which remap the old Kickstart WOM/RAM to $F80000 (you use an AddMem program to manually add the memory at $F80000-$FBFFFF).

Does it state anything about the type of EPROMs supported by standard A1000 motherboards-- 27C256 or 27C512 or both?  

I was thinking that even if you have only two EPROMs on a standard A1000 motherboard, as long as they have the extra address line (A15), it should be possible to losslessly compress the KS 1.1 (at least) into the 128KB EPROM space and decompress it into the 256KB KickRAM when you boot up A1000.  Thus, you won't have to solder any new ROMs-- it would just be a simple plug and play solution.  This of course assumes, the Kickstart does not call functions in the bootstrap kickstart in the EPROMs while loading Workbench.

The Decompressor would have to fit into the same space as the compressed KS EPROMs.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: eroom on January 06, 2008, 07:36:36 PM
Just got round to reading this thread and after a bit of digging found this which you may be interested in

http://amigahardware.mariomisic.de/cgi-bin/showhardware_en.cgi?HARDID=1731

Paul.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Jeff on January 06, 2008, 07:46:01 PM
I purchased (2) of the A1000 Kickstart adapters from DJBase. The adapters are TOP quality as is DJBase's knowledge and tech support.  My 1000 is now happily running 3.1.

There are a couple of simple changes to the daughter board and motherboard needed to get the adapter working. Once done you will be glad you did it. It really is a slick kit and well worth the price and you NEED his instructions.

Thanks DJBase for all of your help!

Now if I could just add an IDE68K:-D

Jeff

@eroom
It looks like one of my 1000's probably has this kit installed. Thanks for solving the mystery. I bet that special PAL would be impossible to find these days even if you made the eproms.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: TjLaZer on January 06, 2008, 07:51:19 PM
I wonder what happens if you do not do this step:

Quote
Replace the 20pin PAL 16L8A-2CN chip located at U6J on the WCS daughterboard with the new chip supplied in the kit
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Piru on January 06, 2008, 08:31:49 PM
@amigaksi

Indeed, compressing with LZMA (the best compressor there is pretty much):

116644 ks 1.1 ntsc
116139 ks 1.1 pal
121084 ks 1.2
120795 ks 1.3

The decompressor is very small. In my lzmaLoader (http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/lzmaloader/) I could fit a PPC executable decompressor into 3584 bytes (this includes a lot of support code too, not just the decompressor). m68k decompressor should be even smaller.
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: Computolio on February 25, 2009, 12:53:45 AM
I'm trying to burn an A1000 Kickstart 1.3 ROM set, and all I'm getting is a black screen and occasionally a purple or scrambled screen. I'm pretty sure I've split the ROM properly, and I've been trying every jumper combination with no success. Is there something I'm missing?

These are the default jumper settings (for the Kickstart loader boot ROM):

W1 = 1-2
W2 = 2-3
W3 = 2-3
W4 = 1-2
W5 = 1-2

And these are supposedly the settings for Kickstart in EPROM:

W1 = 1-2
W2 = 1-2
W3 = 2-3
W4 = 2-3
W5 = 1-2

Has anyone done this before? How does DJBase's upgrade work (i.e. where are the extra wires connected and how are the jumpers set)?

Do I absolutely need the new PAL to do this upgrade?
Title: Re: Amiga 1000 Kickstart Eproms/Roms
Post by: os62 on June 25, 2011, 12:27:26 AM
Quote from: mark_k;359254

Coincidentally, I was reading through my copy of the Commodore-Amiga 2nd Annual Developers Conference Notes (from 1986) this morning.

There are two articles which cover installing Kickstart EPROMs in 2-layer A1000 boards. There are several different methods, two of which remap the old Kickstart WOM/RAM to $F80000 (you use an AddMem program to manually add the memory at $F80000-$FBFFFF).

I'm anyone wants I can scan or type up the relevant pages. That should help a lot with your understanding of what's involved and the different options.


Would there be any chance to post this information, still?