Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: tonyyeb on November 30, 2007, 10:24:12 PM
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Hi all. A quick look at Nusims feedback on ebay shows well over 130 bare Minimig boards sold! I've only seen 2 complete ones sold on ebay (@ £220 each). So are there 100 Minimig v1.1's out there? Is it time to start a club and website? Anyone got photos of complete and the build process? And finally - anyone want to sell one to me?!?!
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We are all eagerly waiting for the next batch of Xilinx XC3S400 FPGA's to be on sale at Digi-Key :lol:
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sigh....Haven't even started building mine, I'm waiting to have some spare time (prolly after xmas). I don't plan to have it working before next summer tho.
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I bet that 99.99% of the PCBs are still wrapped in cellophane waiting to be soldered.
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@alexh
Like this?
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6784/blackminimigspp0.th.jpg) (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blackminimigspp0.jpg)
:-P :-D
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I fear that over 80% will probably stay in that state for the remainder of their lives :-(
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I got mine completed yesterday, now i have to get my pic programmed. I will post some pictures later.
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wizard66 sells the pic programmed for the ones that doesnt have a programmer.
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wizard66 built one for DiscreetFX and did a great job. What is the Digi-Key part number please for the Minimeg power supply anyone?
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u just need a 5v with a minumum of 100ma psu
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The two boards I've bought will get built when the last of the parts arrive and theres the time. Guess that'll be in January unless I'm lucky before I go on holiday but they'll get done.
Think you might be being a lil' pessimistic when you say 80%, 50% maybe.
Andy
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I was thought I was being rather generous.
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I am no engineer. Is anyone developing a retail product? Something we could find on AMigakit?
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sdyates wrote:
I am no engineer. Is anyone developing a retail product? Something we could find on AMigakit?
That would be nice :-)
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dont know why amigakit peeps dont put them together to sell...
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Crom00 had pursued a production run of fully assembled minimigs in China but the minimum production run is 1000 units, so this has been put on hold i guess!!
I dont think 1000 would be that far out of reach considering the 100 odd PCB's that have been sold, the interest is there!
Just need to get someone like DiscreetFX to help out with the upfront cots!!
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@taunusand
Perhaps it is something acube could look into. There is no doubt that there is a big market around this.
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Well, TobiFlex has created a 68000 FPGA CPU and ported the whole thing to the DE-1 FPGA development board. So, it seem that all we need is for someone with some technical skill to compile the whole thing together in an end user usable package so that we can order DE-1, install the software, and start playing.
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Amiga games look UGLY :vomit: on the DE-1 since the DE-1 is missing most of the colors. I don't think Discreet FX wants to damage its reputation by selling defective merchandise.
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Have you run MiniMig on the DE-1?
What Discreet FX wants is irrelevant to running MiniMig on the DE-1. They don't make the MiniMig FPGA design. They don't make TobiFlex's 68000 design, and they don't make the DE-1.
I am sure that there are a lot of people that would be happy with reduced colors to actually have a MiniMig. Also, as I understand it, there is no reason that the DE-1 couldn't have a simple mod that would direct graphics to a port that could handle all of the colors.
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I don't think Discreet FX wants to damage its reputation by selling defective merchandise.
What defective merchandise?
The minimig i used was near perfect!!
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@Michael
You used a real Minimig. You did not use a DE-1 minimig with braindamaged color output.
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my post with DiscretFX mentioned was about the minimig.
And how much of an issue would the colour output be?
It would only effect how many colours can be output at one time, wouldn't bother the majority of OCS games
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amazing wrote:
wizard66 sells the pic programmed for the ones that doesnt have a programmer.
I would like to buy an own programmer because i may have use for it in the future.
do you guys know any cheap but working programmer that will program the PIC18LFxxx?
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It's too much money up front for any small company to take the risk. Coupled with the possibility that MiniMig is in violation of copyright. It's not going to happen any time soon.
Add in the minor incompatibilities and the low capability of the v1.x design and you dont have a great product.
Shame cos it's so close to being viable.
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It's not a minimig it's just a "FPGA developer platform based on MC68000". I think as long as that claim is made and nothing else it would be hard to touch legaly.
And one could include a simple parallel port setup to program the PIC18. That way NO "software" is present.
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freqmax wrote:
It's not a minimig it's just a "FPGA developer platform based on MC68000". I think as long as that claim is made and nothing else it would be hard to touch legaly.
But there would be a small chance the MiniMig source code and all the binaries could be forced off the net, and with nothing to load onto it ;-)
It's been too long now. If any company was seriously considering a "jump-n-run" with the MiniMig 1.x boards they would have done it by now.
$50k for 1000 units (MOV) is too much for an individual or a small company to gamble with.
A design partner with someone like TerASIC is perhaps the best idea.
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Coupled with the possibility that MiniMig is in violation of copyright.
Assuming that the board is shipped without KS or OS and that Dennis did not glimpse the original OCS ASIC designs......(They got lost while he was still in diapers! :-D )
Could you specify exactly how the minimig could possibly be in violation of copyright?
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Andeda wrote:
amazing wrote:
wizard66 sells the pic programmed for the ones that doesnt have a programmer.
I would like to buy an own programmer because i may have use for it in the future.
do you guys know any cheap but working programmer that will program the PIC18LFxxx?
ther's a guy on ebay selling them..they called willem programmer..
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Colin_Camper wrote:
Could you specify exactly how the minimig could possibly be in violation of copyright?
It is a translation of the copyrighted & published work "Amiga Hardware Reference Manual", English to Verilog.
As a homebrew project I doubt there is anyone left who cares enough to bother, but as a fully commercial project no company could take that risk.
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It is a translation of the copyrighted & published work "Amiga Hardware Reference Manual", English to Verilog.
Ehh? Is this new Hermanism?
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It is a translation of the copyrighted & published work "Amiga Hardware Reference Manual", English to Verilog.
And...
How does that violate copyright?
You are in the U.K. You should know that reverse engineering is perfectly legal in the EU including Holland.
Have you not heard of ReactOS - the Windows clone OS built from the ground up using publicly available documentation.
Haiku
IBM PC Hardware
IBM PC BIOS
etc, etc.
but as a fully commercial project no company could take that risk.
You are wrong.
Are you saying, AMD, Compaq, Dell, Digital Research - none of these are commercial companies?
It's all very well talking rubbish on forums - but sometimes these witterings can add power to the bullies and intimidators like Scamiga Inc.
Look at the AROS name change - totally unnecessary but due in part to uninformed witterings on forums. :-)
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Look at the AROS name change - totally unnecessary but due in part to uninformed witterings on forums
For those of us who do live in the US, name change was a "good thing." Still further with an eye to OEMs eventually using AROS, it was very much needed, IMO.
Dammy
TeamAROS (http://www.teamaros.org)
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I agree that the name change was a good thing.
I prefer the new name. It's more aligned with the FSF/GNU/Open tradition now and less with the tradition of empty promises, scams and shady shell games.
I should have used a different example! :-)
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RE PIC programming questions, it is possible to assemble a cheap programmer out of readily available parts.
The Minimig currently uses a PIC18LF252. I think 'F' refers to Flash memory. Can anyone tell me what the 'L' stands for?
I am currently assuming the PIC18LF252 is pin compatible with the PIC18F252. If this is the case, this is a suitable PIC programming solution:
Website: http://www.ic-prog.com/index1.htm
Hardware: http://www.ic-prog.com/ER1400.jpg
Software: http://www.ic-prog.com/download.html
More Software: http://www.electronics-lab.com/downloads/mcu/001/index.html
Can someone with more electronics experience please tell me if the ER1400 programmer will support the PIC18LF252. Thanks.
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Colin_Camper wrote:
You are in the U.K. You should know that reverse engineering is perfectly legal in the EU including Holland.
I also know that publication of copyrighted material in translated form is a violation of said copyright.
Colin_Camper wrote:
You are wrong.
No I'm not.
Are you saying, AMD, Compaq, Dell, Digital Research - none of these are commercial companies?
All of these companies try to observe patents and copyrights owned by their peers. And whilst they reverse engineer IDEAS, they dont copy things 100%, register for register, bit for bit. If they have to, i.e. for compatibility, they license the technology from one another, usually through patent exchange etc.
You dont see AMD selling chips with 100% clones of an Intel P4 in them, and vice versa.
It's all very well talking rubbish on forums - but sometimes these witterings can add power to the bullies and intimidators like Scamiga Inc.
I've worked many years as a hardware engineer developing many chips, I've written many ASIC related patents and worked with many patent lawyers etc. I've done reverse engineering and been told how close I am alowed to copy another companies designs. While they are my opinion, they are not witterings. I'd be interested what experience you have? Ah.. yeah.. thought so :-)
Have you not heard of ReactOS - the Windows clone OS built from the ground up using publicly available documentation.
Publicly available NON COPYRIGHTED material?
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@henry case
why u want to build it your own if u can buy them for cheap on ripoffbay?
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It seems you know little about copyrights and Patents.
Cloning the hardware does not infringe copyright as the function of the Amiga has been copied NOT the design itself.
Patents in most places last a maximum of 20 years so anything on the market on or before 1988 is fine from a patent point of view.
The software loaded from the SD card is a whole different matter ! The software is however not supplied, so where no copyrighted material is supplied I cannot see what is the legal issue ?
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MiniMorph wrote:
It seems you know little about copyrights and Patents.
You'd be suprised.
Looking at your site, (assuming you are fordp) you come from a technical background?
Cloning the hardware does not infringe copyright as the function of the Amiga has been copied NOT the design itself.
The design is described in detail in the HRM, it has numeric constant values, state machines, timing diagrams etc. The author has said that he converted this documentation into what became MiniMig.
If it had been an abstract, high level description of the function of an Amiga, I dont think we'd be having this debate.
That said, there are quite a few subtle differences between the Amiga chipset as described by the HRM and MiniMig, maybe enough to differentiate them, maybe not. I'll leave it upto someone trying to sell it commercially to work out if it is enough.
Patents in most places last a maximum of 20 years so anything on the market on or before 1988 is fine from a patent point of view.
Yeah, sometimes 20, sometimes 25. I mentioned it several times in the past in other threads. If there are any patents covering AGA I speculated it would be a few more years for them expire.
But we weren't talking patents, we were talking copyright.
I was just trying to offer one possible explaination as to "Where are all the MiniMig's?" and why no company had picked up the manufacture, the point of this thread ;-)
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I'm not buying the copyright line. If documenting a product gave you infinite monopoly power, no one would bother patenting anything. They would just copyright everything. The description of the Amiga is also just a list of facts. You cannot copyright a list of facts. You can copyright the presentation, but not the data itself.
Now, I don't know Verilog, but it seems very unlikely that the code is laid out in the same order as the book. It is also very unlikely that it is truly a one for one translation.
For you to be correct, it would also have to be true that the use of reference materials for any other project, FPGA or not, is a copyright violation. I'm just not buying it.
How about some links to actual rulings on the use of reference works being copyright violations, because right now you are sounding an awful lot like a troll.
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@HenryCase
Can anyone tell me what the 'L' stands for
According to the Digi-Key catalog (http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T073/P0574.pdf) the LF version operates with a VCC range of 2.0 ~ 5.5V and the F version with a range of 4.2 ~ 5.5V :-)
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The design is described in detail in the HRM, it has numeric constant values, state machines, timing diagrams etc. The author has said that he converted this documentation into what became MiniMig.
But then WinUAE would be illegal too. And so would be AROS and MorphOS. AROS is Amiga Rom Kernel Reference Manual translated to C ;-)
Minimig is completely legal product as long as it does not violate Amiga patents and is not shipped with illegal copies of copyrighted material. That means they can not ship Minimig with the original Kickstart ROM without license from Amiga Inc but they could ship Minimig with Kickstart ROM clone instead (if there was any).
I was just trying to offer one possible explaination as to "Where are all the MiniMig's?" and why no company had picked up the manufacture, the point of this thread
I think real problem is funding and marketing. Especially marketing because Minimig can not be labeled as Amiga unless Amiga Inc loses its trademarks.
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itix wrote:
But then WinUAE would be illegal too. And so would be AROS and MorphOS. AROS is Amiga Rom Kernel Reference Manual translated to C ;-)
Heh, yeah maybe ;-) But if you were the company considering manufacturing them would you take the word of anyone who wasnt a qualified techie lawyer? Me neither.
Especially marketing because Minimig can not be labeled as Amiga unless Amiga Inc loses its trademarks.
I dunno anything about trademarks. Not something an engineer ever deals with. I would have imagined they could get away with the phrase "Amiga(TM) compatible" on the box and put appropriate TM acknowledgement bits in small writing?
But then again if "Lindows" and "Mike Rowe Soft" were trademark infringements who knows?
Like I said before, if no-one at Amiga Inc. cared about the classic then there would be no problem. However they have a track record of trying to milk their ownership of Amiga for everything they can.
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@alexh
I also know that publication of copyrighted material in translated form is a violation of said copyright.
You obviously have not grasped what Dennis did with verilog or how he used the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual to help achieve this. :-(
No I'm not.
I imagine you never are wrong. :-D
they dont copy things 100%, register for register, bit for bit.
Nor did Dennis. Did you even read the minimig thread?
You dont see AMD selling chips with 100% clones of an Intel P4 in them
Of course not. They sell (effectively) 100% software compatible chips just like Dennis produced a reasonable compatible version of the OCS.
I've written many ASIC related patents and worked with many patent lawyers etc.
Patent numbers? No I thought not. :lol:
I'd be interested what experience you have? Ah.. yeah.. thought so
Twenty five years in commercial electronics and IT. Ah.. yeah.. and I'm not an arrogant {bleep}. :-)
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Weather the minimig1 hardware is possible to challenge without software, I dault it.
The configuration (*.bit) files might be another story. But forcing that of the net.. Not likely to succeed. There's a lot of other software where the infrigment is clear. And it's still online.
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Colin_Camper wrote:
I imagine you never are wrong. :-D
Hey you've met me ;-)
I am wrong all the time and openly admit it, like all good engineers. You learn from your mistakes and you go on. Makes you a better engineer.
they dont copy things 100%, register for register, bit for bit.
Nor did Dennis. Did you even read the minimig thread?
I think he did or it wouldnt be compatible? The underlying bus structure is different (he said he merged chip&slow) because of his CPU-RAM interface. It's these differences I talked about earlier in this thread.
They[AMD] sell (effectively) 100% software compatible chips
Ah, yes but to get compatible (and they are still not 100% compatible) they license technology from one another SSE, MMX etc..
Twenty five years in commercial electronics and IT.
As an engineer? Blackpool eh... not much there in terms of ASIC stuff... (I know I grew up around there) Hmmm, BAE systems?
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Another question, where is the best place to get MMC cards that work the best with Minimeg?
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amazing said:
@henry case
why u want to build it your own if u can buy them for cheap on ripoffbay?
I didn't realise you could buy PIC programmers so cheaply off eBay, thanks for the tip Amazing. If anyone living in the UK is looking for a cheap PIC programmer (that will work with the Minimig PIC chip I believe), check this out: http://tinyurl.com/yru47g
£7 'Buy it now' price, £3/£4 postage. Unbe-f*
CD32Freak wrote:
According to the Digi-Key catalog (http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T073/P0574.pdf) the LF version operates with a VCC range of 2.0 ~ 5.5V and the F version with a range of 4.2 ~ 5.5V :-)
CD32Freak, thanks for the info. So I'm guessing L = Low Voltage.
CD32Freak wrote:
By the way, the RoHS Replacement of PIC18LF252-I/SP is the PIC18LF2520-I/SP and the RoHS Replacement of PIC18F252-I/SP is the PIC18F2520-I/SP ;-)
I got the part name off the American Digikey price list I found on this forum. Am I right in thinking the US doesn't have to follow RoHS guidelines (I thought it was a EU directive)?
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I very busy and too lazy to find the right power supply for Minimeg in the USA. Someone want to do it for me and I will pay them a little extra for their trouble?
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@Pyromania
Do you keep referring to the MiniMig as MiniMeg out of some kind of protest, or did you just read it wrong the first time, and never noticed that it is MiniMig?
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Pyromania wrote:
I very busy and too lazy to find the right power supply for Minimeg in the USA. Someone want to do it for me and I will pay them a little extra for their trouble?
You need a REGULATED 5 volts DC PSU (I Have a 1 Amps PSU).
100Ma is to light, the minimig withe a optical mouse draws aprox 100Ma.
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alexh wrote:
itix wrote:
But then WinUAE would be illegal too. And so would be AROS and MorphOS. AROS is Amiga Rom Kernel Reference Manual translated to C ;-)
Heh, yeah maybe ;-) But if you were the company considering manufacturing them would you take the word of anyone who wasnt a qualified techie lawyer? Me neither.
I would not take the word of anyone, especially not from the Internet, saying that manufacturing them would be illegal.
I rather would check it from online resource, i.e. www.finlex.fi in my case. If I suspected there could be some problems I would check if such case has been in the court already.
You dont have to be a lawyer to understand it. Understanding legal terms will help, though.
Like I said before, if no-one at Amiga Inc. cared about the classic then there would be no problem. However they have a track record of trying to milk their ownership of Amiga for everything they can.
I know they milked Amiga users with their Amiga DE scam but it was many years ago.
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There was one for sale in germany
(ebay http://tinyurl.com/2q8vnr)
I sent the seller a question if he would ship to Norway when there was 0 bids, and one day to go. No answer.
The acution ended with no bids.
It breaks my heart...
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arnljot wrote:
There was one for sale in germany
(ebay http://tinyurl.com/2q8vnr)
I sent the seller a question if he would ship to Norway when there was 0 bids, and one day to go. No answer.
The acution ended with no bids.
It breaks my heart...
There is no FPGA in that minimig, so thats why nobody is interested in it..
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Andeda wrote:
There is no FPGA in that minimig, so thats why nobody is interested in it..
I see, makes sense. I don't understand any german :)
Only before I bid I'll make use of google translate to see if there are any snags... :)
Google translate wrote:
Herewith, I offer an almost complete MiniMig as drawn up by Dennis van Weeren designed. Almost completely because of the Spartan 3 because availability is not yet on the board soldered. It's still missing a ELKO, but what will be included because he previously at the Spartan 3 soldering would disturb. And it might not be the 3.5 mm audio jack, which I still could not make out. I have reviewed all the solder joints and there were höherwertigere components used as Dennis van Weeren recommended. For example, as one of transceiver Linear Technologies instead of a budget version. I had the part but has not yet closed to the network, but carried out several tests, which ensure operational readiness. Even the PIC controller is programmed so that only the missing components to be soldered and the fun can begin. Since the last sold on eBay complete Minimigs for approximately 300 EUR weggingen I offer my due to the absence of Spartan 3 (price approximately 30 EUR) for a relatively low price. Have fun.
UPDATE: Today (19.11.07), I get the call that I am the Spartan 3 in 4-5 weeks delivery. Upon request, and against 30 EUR fee, I will deliver it. With Instant-purchase account for the surcharge.
UPDATE (23.11.07): Because some inquiries I say again that the PIC is already programmed. Esfehlt really only the Spartan 3, a ELKO (is), and the audio connection. Otherwise, the device is running.
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Pyromania wrote:
Another question, where is the best place to get MMC cards that work the best with Minimeg?
Pyromania, I wanted to reply to this because I've seen you ask this question a couple of times without much of a response.
I guess as one of the early owners of a Minimig, the responsibility for finding the best supplier of MMCs might be down to you (trial and error and all that). However, that isn't being helpful. Take a look at this picture:
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=1211
Looks like Dennis used an Apacer MMC.
Google US product search:
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=Apacer+MMC&um=1&ie=UTF-8
So prices are around $17.98 USD for a 1GB card.
Hope that helps.
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Thanks very much for the info HenryCase, now if I can only track down that elusive power supply for the USA.
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@Belial6
My mistake, I'll call it by it's proper name from now on (MiniMig). I have seen it on the internet both ways. Thanks for the free spell check.
:)
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Pyromania wrote:
Thanks very much for the info HenryCase, now if I can only track down that elusive power supply for the USA.
Would any of these be suitable as a Minimig power supply?
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=13646+PS
http://tinyurl.com/2nsotb
http://www.hobbytron.com/CK341V5.html
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=6601+PS
I'm going on info from wizard66's post, but I really don't have much of a clue!
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Here's a list for a related project in regards to flashmemory card:
http://jderogee.tripod.com/FAQ_1541.htm
Here's some issues with the SD-Card connector, which may be the reason behind some of the problems:
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Board_v1.0_issues#Issue:_SD.2FMMC
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i just order the programmer for my Minimig PIC, seller says that delivery can take up to 15 days. Thats a very long time when my minimig is waiting for me here on the desk.. :-D