Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: dannyp1 on November 26, 2007, 11:48:55 PM
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I had always been under the assumption that the A4000 was the crown jewel of the Amiga line of computers. I was including the 4000D and 4000T together in this category. A person I met recently told me this wasn't true. He said that the A3000 was actually the best computer Amiga had made. Is there any truth in this? If so, what are the reasons. I have heard Gloomy's babble about the A2000 and had always just considered the source but this A3000 talk was new to me. Any opinions and reasons one way or the other would be appreciated as I have an opportunity to pick up an A3000 and wondered if I should. I already have an A4000 so it isn't a matter of making a choice. Thanks for any help that may be forthcoming. Dan :-?
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The A3000T is the best Amiga ever!
Ok, it lacks the AGA chipset, but have an internal, native, fully functional scandoubler/flickerfixer.
Plus it have SCSI.
The tower have room to toss anything you want inside.
And it's compatible with almost all cards even made for the A4000.
Did I forget something?
--EDIT--
D'oh! The A3000 (T) never have IDE on board.
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The A3000 I have a chance to get is not a tower but the desktop model. I should have mentioned this. Dan
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rkauer wrote:
The A3000T is the best Amiga ever!
Ok, it lacks the AGA chipset, but have an internal, native, fully functional scandoubler/flickerfixer.
Plus it have IDE and SCSI.
The tower have room to toss anything you want inside.
And it's compatible with almost all cards even made for the A4000.
Did I forget something?
Well, I have seen an A3000T with the AGA chipset and the DSP card (very rare!).
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i would say the 4000T is the best amiga...
it have the AGA chipset, a fully functional scandoubler/flickerfixer card.
Plus it have IDE and SCSI, 3.5hd floppy, cdrom....
The tower have room to toss anything you want inside.
it's compatible with almost all cards made for the A3000.
and it dont weight a ton like the a3000t does :lol:
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rkauer wrote:
Did I forget something?
It's too big.
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To OP: I'd say that the A3000D is prolly best overall. It has a lot of functionality straight out of the box.
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A1260 wrote:
i would say the 4000T is the best amiga...
it have the AGA chipset, a fully functional scandoubler/flickerfixer card.
Plus it have IDE and SCSI, 3.5hd floppy, cdrom....
The tower have room to toss anything you want inside.
it's compatible with almost all cards made for the A3000.
and it dont weight a ton like the a3000t does :lol:
Where? Only the A3000 have an internal scandoubler (Amber). In the 4k systems you need to bought an 3rd part one.
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rkauer wrote:
i would say the 4000T is the best amiga...
it have the AGA chipset, a fully functional scandoubler/flickerfixer card.
Where? Only the A3000 have an internal scandoubler (Amber). In the 4k systems you need to bought an 3rd part one.
Yes, but that's the only thing it is missing.
Picasso 4 card changes all that though. Plus, it's not quite as big as the 3000T.
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Depends on what u want it for really..
If u wana play games, then the A4000 is probably your best bet as it has AGA..
For productivity I think an A3000 or A3000T is probably better... (T prefered)
The A3000 has a much sturdier construction.. The A4000 case is pretty flimsy! The A3000T though has an ultra sturdy case and HUGE expandability space and ventilaton...
My personal choice is the 3000T (That's what I'm gunna be running OS4 on anyway!)
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I'll put my 2 cents in, the 3000 Tower motherboard has sockets which aid in replacement of chips faster and less pain. Dam you to hell CIA chips. The other great thing is I have one; serial number 175
Mike
San Diego
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So far as basic machine without expensive addons are concerned, I'd agree that the A3000 is best choice. According to some information I ran across earlier today, the A4000 was actually a prototype for an intended A3000 Plus computer that never got fully developed because of Commodore's business difficulties. As released, the A4000 was not considered by most product reviewers to be superior to the A3000, excepting for inclusion of the AGA chipset and ability to use 64-pin RAM sticks. So far as this point in time, three of three A3000s I've purchased are working just fine....after two attempts, I still don't have a properly running A4000. And, other things considered, I'd say that lack of socketed chips makes the A4000 a poor choice for keeping it alive in the geriatric ward of computerdom.
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I would say the A4000T is the best Amiga, and their rare (only 5000 made). The Amiga 3000 is cool but it won't even do the realtime color effects on the Video Toaster 4000.
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rkauer wrote:
The A3000T is the best Amiga ever!
Plus it have IDE and SCSI.
The A3000T has no IDE.
Imho the best machine is an A3000+ (A3k with AGA+DSP, could use more slots though) or an A4000T (the only thing it misses is a flicker fixer).
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Apart from all the functional reasons that are summed up above this post, there is one more reason why the A3000 is better than the A4000:
It's pretty!
The A4000 is just an altered Commodore PC desktop case, while the A3000 is a design of it's own.
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The A3000(T) is nice and stable hardware wise, but both the desktop and the tower are not mechanically very nice for expansions.
There's no room for anything in the desktop, even though it looks nice.
I'm considering relocating my A3000T into a generic ATX fulltower case, just because the original tower's construction sucks so bad. (vertical drive bracket, drive rails, millions of screws that need to be in to keep the system rigid, otherwise everything falls apart constantly)
Sure, it's sturdy, but that's the only positive feature about it.
Yet still I regard the A3000T as the best Amiga commodore ever mass produced. The A4000T is probably the second..
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McVenco wrote:
Apart from all the functional reasons that are summed up above this post, there is one more reason why the A3000 is better than the A4000:
It's pretty!
The A4000 is just an altered Commodore PC desktop case, while the A3000 is a design of it's own.
pretty? i never understood that! ever since it was released i thought it was ugly! each to his own taste i suppose! as to if the original poster should buy the A3000! it depends! price/what you want to do with it? there is very litle space inside an A3000D if you wish to upgrade with cpu etc..
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Dont believe the hype. (most being re-iterated in this thread)
The A4000 is "the best" Amiga ever made to date.
It is everything the A3000 is, and it has AGA.
How can the A3000(T) be "the best" Amiga when it doesnt run (and can never be made to run) a proportion of Amiga software?
"But the A3000(T) has a better looking, higher quality case!"
So what? I dont know about you, but I tend to look at the screen when I am using my Amiga.
"But the A3000(T) has a built in scandoubler!"[/b]
So what? You can buy one for the A4000(T), I'd like to see you buy AGA support for the A3000(T). (i.e. you cant)
"But the A3000(T) has SCSI!"[/b]
It's slow SCSI-1 and the A4000T has fast SCSI-II! Plus the A4000(T) has IDE for cheap drives. If you want SCSI-1 on your A4000D you can get a comparable Zorro-II SCSI card very cheap.
Also A3000(T) motherboards have to have INT2 mods done before you can use accelerators with SCSI controllers!
"But the A3000(T) has faster motherboard RAM!"
Yeah, stoopid, expensive, hard to find ZIP RAM! A4000(T) has nice, cheap, easy to find 72-pin SIMMS. Any speed differences is negated to zero when you get an accelerator (with RAM).
A4000T has a second video slot meaning you can use a video toaster AND an RTG card.
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@alexh
I have to agree completely with everything you stated. :pint: 8-)
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alexh wrote:
Dont believe the hype. (most being re-iterated in this thread)
The A4000 is "the best" Amiga ever made.
It is everything the A3000 is, and AGA.
How can the A3000 be "the best" Amiga when it doesnt run and can never be made to run a proportion of Amiga software?
The whole Amiga Community I knew when the A4K was released in 1992, all sighed with dissapointment at the lack of onboard SCSI.
Since the demise of the Big C=, everyone has forgot just what SCSI was all about & how it intergrated with the Amiga Hardware.
Sure, the A4 series wern't as solidly built as the A3 series, but as Alex says above, the A4 was capable of more colours & newer/faster software to take advantage of AGA.
Actually, the A4 series should never have been released. The A4 was a prototype for the A3500 which was planned as an A3000 with Flicker Fixer, SCSI & AGA chipset. The A4 series was a result of a cheaper product to manufacture, but should really have been the AAA chipset. This was the final nail in the coffin for C= as their marketing strategys were simply just not aggressive enough. C= sat on their arses too long raking the money in as a gaming computer. The hardware developers must have been really pissed off at not seeing AAA implemented.
I had an A3000D before my A4000 in 1993. I loved it, but it moved sideways after I threw a SCSI card & PicassoIV in the A4KD.
I never looked back. ;-)
LOL Alex...I can't keep up with ur Editing! :lol:
I agree with Invisix too. 10/10 :-)
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+1 for the A3000+.
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-D- wrote:
+1 for the A3000+.
Unreleased prototypes dont count! The lines between truth and myth blur too much.
Zac67 wrote:
Imho the best machine is an A3000+ (A3k with AGA+DSP, could use more slots though) or an A4000T (the only thing it misses is a flicker fixer).
Did you know the A3000+ didn't have a scandoubler either?
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I think the A4000D/T is still the best. Yes it doesn't have all this as standard but I don't think you can really go without AGA. The 4000 can have all that if you fork out a bit more.
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By just looking at the standard machine (not taking into account any addons like an accelerator or Picasso-IV) I will still vote for the A3000.
To modern day standards the SCSI-I is slow, true, but that's not what retro is about (and to me, Amiga is retro, and not competing to any modern day computer).
The only advantage of a standard A4000 are AGA and easy memory adding via SIMMs (which was just as expensive as ZIP ram back in the days), but AGA has not much of an advantage over ECS when you use it as a productivity machine (which they both are - want to play games? buy an A1200!). Who needs a 262,144 color Workbench when you're coding or writing some documents?
As for the tower versions and expansions: sure, the A4000T has faster SCSI, but when you add a Cyberstorm and/or Picasso, you must do that to the A3000T as well to have an honest comparison. Result? Still not much difference between the 2, apart from AGA, which you don't use much with that Picasso installed anyway. 2 video slots? Nice, but people who don't do any video-related stuff on their Amiga aren't likely to have much use for it.
The cases in overall view indeed again: each to his own taste. I find the A4000D very boring, and the A3000D very pretty. The A3000T might be a heavy beast with lots of screws, but at least you can take a side panel off without the need to topple the machine over because the A4000T's side panel also includes the top and bottom side of the case. But then again, I find the looks of the A4000T nicer than the A3000T (which looks a bit too massive)
Conclusion:
I would choose the A3000 when it comes to desktops and the A4000T when it comes to the tower versions. Any comparison between an A3000D and A4000T (or the other way round: A3000T vs. A4000D) is nonsense in my opinion. As for functionality, it's almost a tie between them. Like I said: you don't buy an A3000 or A4000 to play games, so please don't mention AGA. The only useful program that I know that uses AGA is DPaint.
End of rant. I'm now going to think happy thoughts again :-)
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The 1000 is best by most meanings of the word "best."
Perhaps you meant to ask which Amiga is the most expandable?
*edit*
You also didn'tsay for what expansion. I saw a guy with a 2000 the other day with a 486 card, macintosh card, sound blaster, VGA card, NIC, Apple IIe card, RTG card, 060 card, and I think a toaster. He said he used it for retro game shows becuse it could test IBM, Amiga, older Mac, and Apple 2 disks using one box. I think the Amiga has a 300watt PSU and more ISA slots than the 3000 or 4000, (but maybe not the tower.) So for that purpose I'd say the 2000 may be the "best" machine.
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@dannyp1
He said that the A3000 was actually the best computer Amiga had made. Is there any truth in this?
I have owned/own various amiga models (A500/A600/A2000/A3000/A4000/A4000T)
A3000 is overrated. IMHO it's crap compared to an A4000:
-It doesn't have ROM3.1 (you have to buy it)
-It doesn't have Buster11 (you have to buy it)
-It has a crap and slow SCSI interface that heats up DMAC chip and usually has problems with multiple devices. A4000T has IDE and a much better SCSI controller.
-It doesn't have IDE interface. A4000 has IDE.
-You may have to replace DMAC+Ramsey because ZorroIII sucks on A3000. In addition to that A3640 has problems with it so forget about cheap accelerators.
-The case is rubbish. You have to modify it (cutting it) to fit a proper accelerator and it doesn't have space for CDROM. A4000 in contrast has space for 4 3.5" devices and one 5.15" device. A3000 loses with just 3 3.5" devices but cut that to two if you fit an accelerator. In addition to that A3000 doesn't provide good air flow to the cpu accelerator. It doesn't provide you space to put a proper scsi controller external connector so you have to cut the case (again).
-You can't put inside an internal Mediator4000Di or GREX4000. The only solution is using a Prometheus and waste a lot of slot space.
-Oh yes, it doesn't have AGA. That means it's useless for demoscene stuff and even a crap A1200 will be much more fun for that.
-It uses crap ZIP memory. For those who don't know what's that it means you have to deal with small chips that don't want to fit inside the damn socket, have 200 more chances of failing than SIMMs due to bad contacts and that are expensive and hard to find.
The only good point A3000 has is the internal flickerfixer. But it's useless and rubbish compared to PicassoIV flickerfixer.
In addition to that you can add a cheap scandoubler to your A4000 that will make your A4000 run rings around the old A3000. You may argue that "oh, an scandoubler doesn't come as standard" but it's much cheaper and better than upgrading an A3000.
A4000T is clearly the best if you want to expand it.
A1200 is the best features/price if you don't plan to expand it much.
A3000 is a hole where you can throw a lot of money and you won't get a system that can do all you can do with the two previous.
For those who think I hate A3000 I must say I own one with CSPPC, CV64, Toccata, Prometheus... but it's crap compared to my previous A4000 and I had to waste a lot of money upgrading it. And after wasting a lot of money it won't never be as good as an A4000 (Tower or desktop).
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McVenco wrote:
Who needs a 262,144 color Workbench when you're coding or writing some documents?
Depends if you are coding for AGA ;-)
Like I said: you don't buy an A3000 or A4000 to play games, so please don't mention AGA.
Maybe not back then, but now, yes you do. I did. The majority of A4k users today did. We bought our A4k's for demos, games and Zorro III RTG workbench.
The only useful program that I know that uses AGA is DPaint.
The days of any Amiga program being "useful" are over. It is now purely a machine for nostalgia and fun.
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Your all mad! A1200 is the best Amiga. AGA and fits in a wedge or a tower. As for an SD/FF, why? I'd rather spend cash on a monitor that can suppport my machines video then spend it on converting signals and suffering any signal degradation.
SCSI is an issue I guess, but not a hard one to fix for the 1200. :-D
Feel free to disagree, my opinions are my own.
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alexh wrote:
Depends if you are coding for AGA ;-)
Then you probably are coding demos (or games), so then the A1200 is the machine you really want :-)
We bought our A4k's for demos, games and Zorro III RTG workbench.
I disagree with the demos and games. Sure, I may be a nutcase with way too many Amigas but when I came back to Amiga I wanted a bigbox to do productivity stuff and a wedge cased Amiga for games - games just 'feel' better when played on an A500 or 1200 :-)
The days of any Amiga program being "useful" are over. It is now purely a machine for nostalgia and fun.
And that's exactly the reason why it bothers me that people call the A3000 a useless piece of machinery. I have used an unexpanded A3000 as my main computer for several years (about a decade ago). It ran almost 24/7 and it never gave me ANY problems. I had an external Apple PhotoCD player as a single speed SCSI CD drive which was just perfect.
An A3000 can't take a Mediator? So what? If I want "retro" with PCI cards I'll buy a Pentium 2 and run windows 3.11.
If you value an Amiga by the way you can expand it then please throw away all A1000s and A600s since there's almost NO way to have use for these machines then.
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McVenco wrote:
throw away all A1000s and A600s since there's almost NO way to have use for these machines then.
Absolutely agree. Why anyone would want anything other than an A1200, A4000 or CD32 is beyond me.
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alexh wrote:
Why anyone would want anything other than an A1200, A4000 or CD32 is beyond me.
Anybody ever tell you you're an AGA wh*re? :-)
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Can I just point out that a Military Spec A2000 is by far the best Amiga available and that the rest are all crap (so I'm told by an (un)reliable source. ;-)
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Well as you can see this thread hasn't made it any more clear. I do have to put my vote with the A3000 as well though. Why? Well when te system was being developed the engineers were a lot better. They put everything in sockets, the board is very well made, it's case is built to last as can be seen by just how many are still in use today. It came with everything every Amiga user was asking for out of the box, and you paid the price for all that too.
The A4000 was a cost saving version of what the next A3000 was going to become. The engineers for forced to make cuts, built it as cheap as they could, and take a lot out of what they wanted to put into it. In the end it had a lit of great features, but nothing like the A3000+ has and I know, I have one and it works. All of this lead to a ton of dead A4000 systems, a ton of revisions to attempt to fix the issues, and resulted in a even poorer model in the end. How many have seen the cost reduced version of the A4000?
So in terms of engineering and design the A3000 is by far the best Amiga ever produced.
Oh and for those saying the A3000 cant take a mediator? I think you better look again, mine has one in it and it s working great with a Voodoo 5, a soundblaster card, a 100MB ethernet card, a USB card and a TV card in it.
http://buy.elbox.com/cgibin/shop?info=209M3D&sid=266e2c82
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The amiga 3000 sux it needs several fixes and even a buster upgrade to be usable AFAIK with newer hardware. It also has little room inside comes with ECS chipset and weighs a ton . Wow it has scandoubler so does my amiga 1200ds right no amber but still ....
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Okay okay, I'm gonna simplify my opinion on this:
Best out the box (functionality/productivity):
The Amiga 3000D
Best Amiga for general things (games/AGA/simple add-ons):
The Amiga 1200
Best Amiga:
The Amiga 4000T (or 4000D as long as it is expanded)
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alexh & Crumb for the win!!!!!!!! the a3000 fanbois have been crushed! :-D
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My A1200T r00lz u all! :crazy: *WAHAHAHAAAA!!* :roflmao:
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A1260 wrote:
alexh & Crumb for the win!!!!!!!! the a3000 fanbois have been crushed! :-D
Meh, I still don't see a winner. Most arguments against the A3000 are that it's a b*tch to upgrade, and expensive to upgrade... Also, people tend to forget that the A3000 is quite some years older than the A4000, so that's another reason why you can't compare them in a neutral way. They both are completely different machines for that matter.
And finally (I'm going to stop ranting now, honestly), it's all a matter of taste, and what you use your Amigas for.
Therefore *I* think the A600, A1000, CDTV and AmigaOne completely suck (burn all of them!), and the A500, A3000 and A4000T are cool.
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Crumb wrote:
@dannyp1
He said that the A3000 was actually the best computer Amiga had made. Is there any truth in this?
I have owned/own various amiga models (A500/A600/A2000/A3000/A4000/A4000T)
A3000 is overrated. IMHO it's crap compared to an A4000:
-It doesn't have ROM3.1 (you have to buy it)
-It doesn't have Buster11 (you have to buy it)
-It has a crap and slow SCSI interface that heats up DMAC chip and usually has problems with multiple devices. A4000T has IDE and a much better SCSI controller.
-It doesn't have IDE interface. A4000 has IDE.
-You may have to replace DMAC+Ramsey because ZorroIII sucks on A3000. In addition to that A3640 has problems with it so forget about cheap accelerators.
-The case is rubbish. You have to modify it (cutting it) to fit a proper accelerator and it doesn't have space for CDROM. A4000 in contrast has space for 4 3.5" devices and one 5.15" device. A3000 loses with just 3 3.5" devices but cut that to two if you fit an accelerator. In addition to that A3000 doesn't provide good air flow to the cpu accelerator. It doesn't provide you space to put a proper scsi controller external connector so you have to cut the case (again).
-You can't put inside an internal Mediator4000Di or GREX4000. The only solution is using a Prometheus and waste a lot of slot space.
-Oh yes, it doesn't have AGA. That means it's useless for demoscene stuff and even a crap A1200 will be much more fun for that.
-It uses crap ZIP memory. For those who don't know what's that it means you have to deal with small chips that don't want to fit inside the damn socket, have 200 more chances of failing than SIMMs due to bad contacts and that are expensive and hard to find.
The only good point A3000 has is the internal flickerfixer. But it's useless and rubbish compared to PicassoIV flickerfixer.
In addition to that you can add a cheap scandoubler to your A4000 that will make your A4000 run rings around the old A3000. You may argue that "oh, an scandoubler doesn't come as standard" but it's much cheaper and better than upgrading an A3000.
A4000T is clearly the best if you want to expand it.
A1200 is the best features/price if you don't plan to expand it much.
A3000 is a hole where you can throw a lot of money and you won't get a system that can do all you can do with the two previous.
For those who think I hate A3000 I must say I own one with CSPPC, CV64, Toccata, Prometheus... but it's crap compared to my previous A4000 and I had to waste a lot of money upgrading it. And after wasting a lot of money it won't never be as good as an A4000 (Tower or desktop).
You have to buy 3.1 for all amigas except 4000T, unless you purchased very late in the game. Most amiga 4000s did not come with buster 11 except for 4000T. I never experienced ZorroIII problems with 3000 providing you swap the buster to REV 11. The 3640 REV 3.1 and above has no problems with 3000 providing you have 3.1 roms. I have all models of amigas and I like them all. I think AGA is pretty useless as most of the good games run on RTG anyway. I think if you want to play around with the Amiga computer platform, just try to buy something that works and doesn't strain your budget, and most any of the amiga models will give you your fix.
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IMHO:
The A1000; the most advanced machine of it's time
The A500; the best price/performance of it's time
The A2000; the best upgradeable machine
The A3000; heavily equipped with kinda everything
The CDTV; the best design
The A600; too late, but really nice small, expecially considering the A600HD
AGA just came too late, but nevertheless, practically beseen, you're best off with an AGA machine (a towered A1200 with a big huge cheap ide harddisk and an accelerator I think is the most realistic option)
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McVenco wrote:
Therefore *I* think the A600, A1000, CDTV and AmigaOne completely suck (burn all of them!), and the A500, A3000 and A4000T are cool.
After him! Burn the heretic! BURN BURN BURN!
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@Acill
Why do you think the A4000-CR is worse than the normal Revision B A4000?
The CR model adds:
-Lithium coin-type battery (no leakage)
-header for external battery
-on some models, on-board 030 and socket for FPU
(C= shipped an A4000/LC040 that had A3640 and no 030 onboard - I know I have one :)
-on board chip ram (you can argue this either way, good or bad)
-Revision 11 buster standard
So I would say the A4000-CR is actually a better board than a normal A4000 Rev. B.
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So in terms of engineering and design the A3000 is by far the best Amiga ever produced.
Don't make me laugh. You have to upgrade a lot of chips due to engineering bugs (buster/dmac/ramsey/scsi). SCSI interface is not exactly brilliant, just like the case. socketed chips often pop out of the socket and cause problems. ZIP memory can have bad contact with the socket easily. You have to make INT2 modifications... and engineers learn from their mistakes.
Oh and for those saying the A3000 cant take a mediator? I think you better look again, mine has one in it and it's working great
So you are saying A3000 case is crap and you have to put it into an expensive tower to make it useful?
I didn't write anywhere you can't put your A3000 into an ugly and expensive tower, I said standard case is the worst amiga big box case ever built.
In addition to that you can't keep the original case just like you would do with an A4000 & a Mediator4000Di. Your computer motherboard is a just a "card" inside an alien box. In contrast both Mediator4000Di/GRex4000 use the original box. A3000 case is crap and you have to waste a lot of money putting your motherboard inside a tower.
FYI, if you don't upgrade your Buster to rev 11, A4000 will have faster Zorro.
BTW, you can use AGA for Scala, Brilliance and other apps, not just games&demos.
Why? Well when te system was being developed the engineers were a lot better.
That's rubbish and nonsense. Look at any A4000 motherboard and you'll read BERLIN/HAYNIE FISHER/GUAY.
Open up your A3000 and you'll read TF/HD/DH/GB/SH/JB/MN
Are you saying David Haynie and Greg Berlin (the creators of the A3000) are worse than... David Haynie and Greg Berlin? Uh yeah that makes sense.
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Boy, there are endless opinions on this subject. I wonder if any actually answered the posters question? I will add one other thing. If you want to run OS 4.0 with the hardware supported so far 3000(T) and 4000(T) will work equally well. I hope Amigakit gets my OS 4.0 soon.
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I never had a 3000, but I do have a couple of 4000d's. I personally think that WinUAE is the best Amiga, because it's the cheapest solution. :-D
Too bad it can't run the Video Toaster though, otherwise it would be perfect for what I want.
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Are you lot still arguing?
I'm with Chaos Lord, 1200T all the way!!
....but given the choice between 3 or 4,000 I'd pick aa A4000T every time.
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Starrfoxx wrote:
I never had a 3000, but I do have a couple of 4000d's. I personally think that WinUAE is the best Amiga, because it's the cheapest solution. :-D
Too bad it can't run the Video Toaster though, otherwise it would be perfect for what I want.
What WinUAE, Ugly case, no hardware support, no scsi, etc, etc... :lol:
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@amiga92570
Most amiga 4000s did not come with buster 11 except for 4000T.
That's strange because I know literally dozens of A4000 users and just one had to upgrade his buster.
I think AGA is pretty useless as most of the good games run on RTG anyway.
Take a look at:
http://ada.untergrund.net/ (http://ada.untergrund.net/)
Count the number of AGA productions and the number of OCS/ECS ones...
You have to buy 3.1 for all amigas except 4000T
Yeah, but OS3.0 is much more useful than OS2.x. A4000 is much more useful OOTB. In addition to that OS3.0 equipped A4000 doesn't have pagination problems with older ramsey versions like OS2.x A3000
The 3640 REV 3.1 and above has no problems with 3000 providing you have 3.1 roms.
That's false as if you use a DMAC v1 you would have to upgrade to DMAC v2 at least to avoid problems. At least a DMAC v2 is mandatory. You would also have to upgrade to Buster11 and you should also use a Rev3.1 A3640.
I think if you want to play around with the Amiga computer platform, just try to buy something that works and doesn't strain your budget,
With A3000 you will have to waste lots of money. In contrast an A4000 is better value for your money.
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Wow! What a great thread. I've never had an A3000 but have heard from owners of them that they are a bit of a beast to get into and and work on, and about those troublesome Zips.
Judging by what I've read I would have to agree with the likes of alexh and Crumb :-D :-D :-D
That said, I do plan to add an A3000 to my collection at some point out of curiosity :pint:
Oh..... And I certainly wouldn't be without an A1200 Desktop 8-)
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amiga92570 wrote:
What WinUAE, Ugly case, no hardware support, no scsi, etc, etc... :lol:
My tower case is very pretty, it supports my hardware, but alas.... eh, I have no SCSI. You got me there. :lol:
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You guys are making me want to break out the A4000 mobo and 030 CPU card for it now.
Needs the riser tho.
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amiga92570 wrote:
What WinUAE, Ugly case, no hardware support, no scsi, etc, etc... :lol:
Just buy a UWSCSI controller for your PC and you are good to go . Dont be delusional did you really think amiga is the only computer to have SCSI ? Would i then scare you saying the PC computer has far more superior SCSI hardware .... Just Format a SCSI harddrive on your PCscsi chain with an Amiga partition and run UAE whoops UAE has scsi .. As for ugly case you can choose what ever case you want and they will all fit your mobo..
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Crumb wrote:
That's strange because I know literally dozens of A4000 users and just one had to upgrade his buster.
I've had 2 A4000s with Buster 9. I still own one of these, and it even has a soldered Buster 9, rather than a socketed one. So Yay for not being able to upgrade it...
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Acill wrote:
[A4000 series]resulted in a even poorer model in the end. How many have seen the cost reduced version of the A4000?
I have an A4000D-CR and an A4000D RevB and I can say that the A4000D-CR is better. It has an 030 CPU and FPU on the motherboard, so if your accelerator ever blows up you've automatically got a spare. Standard PC CR2032 battery which very rarely leak. Improved PSU.
Acill wrote:
Oh and for those saying the A3000 cant take a mediator? I think you better look again, mine has one in it
Wow, you have an A3000D in an original desktop case with a mediator, you must have the only one!! ;-)
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I used to Service Amigas and most 4000D came with buster REV 9. DMAC REV 1 was not officially used in 3000. 3000's came with dmac rev 2. The only thing that used DMAC rev 1 was a2091. All my 3000's have buster 11, ramsey-07, and DMAC-04 anyway. But, most of this is useless banter anyway. Since the system is obsolete most of the still functioning computers have most of the upgrades already. I know if I were to sell any of my Amiga computers it would take me a while to decide which to sell, because I think they are all perfect. I have 2 3000T's, 1 4000D, 2 1200, and 1 3000D with PPC's. I am looking to test which works best with OS 4.0.
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@McVenco
Buster9 is still faster than Buster6/7 :-P Maybe Michael Boehmer makes it work with DMA with his Deneb card. We'll see. What is clear is that Buster6/7 don't have DMA support and are slower.
@amiga92570
David Haynie said some A3000 also came with dmac rev 2.
All my 3000's have buster 11, ramsey-07, and DMAC-04 anyway.
lucky {bleep} ;-)
I am looking to test which works best with OS 4.0.
I have tested A3000/A4000/A4000T/A1200 and all of them work very well. Use big box ones as CSPPC uwscsi controller is supported.
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Crumb wrote:
What is clear is that Buster6/7 don't have DMA support and are slower.
Zorro III DMA. And that only stops you from using a Fastlane or an A4091. Which have issues in a buster rev9 A4000 also.
For the record, my A4000 had a rev9 buster, but was upgraded to a rev11 (re-soldered, as it wasn't socketed). My A3000 has a rev11, but I've never needed to upgrade the ramsey and DMAC chips. It's worked well with the old PP&S Mercury and now CSMK2 as well as the A4091.
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amiga92570 wrote:
I think AGA is pretty useless as most of the good games run on RTG anyway.
Funniest thing I've read in a long time. :lol: (Or, maybe sad if you're serious...)
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I am glad someone got a laugh. :-D
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Anyway, the best Amiga is MY Amiga :lol:
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alexh wrote:
Did you know the A3000+ didn't have a scandoubler either?
Duh! You're absolutely right - never noticed that.
Then it's obviously the A4000T - best non-expanded, in expandability, one of the best in looks.
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A1200 is best because it's small and the exandability is not bad (as you can see http://zhulien.kicks-ass.net/pics/a1200/). A4000 if you like big boxes (http://zhulien.kicks-ass.net/pics/a4000/)...
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If the only selling point to the A3000 being the best Amiga is the built in scan doubler and being pretty then I would have to side with Doomy and say the A2000 series is actually the BEST computer since it looked great and you could buy C='s own A2320 amber card! :cheers:
But in reality I much prefer the A4000 series computers. Why? It has AGA, it has most what the A3000 has (32 bit Z3, CPU Fast slot) plus industry standard SIMM slots, Buster 9/11, built in IDE!, and standard High Density floppy drive. SCSI can be added by C='s own A4091 card if you will. A scan doubler can be added as well via a graphics card, or internal or external card. (The only negative I can see, should of came from the factory) What commodore should of done was release an updated amber scan doubler card for the A4000 out the box. The SCSI I can see selling separately since it came with IDE and not everyone might of had a need for fast SCSI devices.
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OMG what a fuss over nothing all the guy wants to know is if he should get the A3000 or not and if its worth it.
:D
In my opinion Yes get it as it look great :D
(who cares about hardware)
Oops here comes another argument :P
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The 3000 also had HD 1.76mb drives. I have high density drives in all my 3000's. I think if the price is right, grag the 3000. You can always pick up a nice 1200 for aga. Software hut and amigakit have 1200's, and software hut has some with accelerators on there web site right now.
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my vote goes to the 3000 for productivity and 1200 for everything else. ive owned both. the 1200 had great tv output but looked like crap on monitor even multisync ones. the 4000 would be similar i assume
the scan doubler flicker fixer in the 3000 is so good it is tough to ignore. just search the postings for people begging for one for their 1200s or 4000s
the big thing ive had against the 4000(t) is that it is so freaking expensive. for a base 4000(t) you can usually get a 3000(t) with a video card negating some of the loss of aga. many games had aga and ecs versions not all but many
one plus for the 1200 was compatability though. it ran everything i threw at it. the 3000 wouldnt run some stuff including some games
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Homer wrote:
Anyway, the best Amiga is MY Amiga :lol:
I like this reply the best :lol:
But as a collector and owner of almost every model ever made (can't pry that A3500T from it's owners hands), I think I like the A4000D in an after-market tower case the best. AGA, lots of slots, including 2 video slots, has the external floppy port that my A4000T does not have, has my CSPPC w/128mb RAM installed, room for CDRW, ZIP, HD Floppy, and several HDs. I just wish my PowerTower had a bigger PSU, I am afraid that with all Zorro and ISA slots filled and 6 or 7 internal devices installed I might be maxing out the current 200 watt PSU.
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The 3000 also had HD 1.76mb drives. I have high density drives in all my 3000's.
They did not come standard though. I have yet to see a A3000 with a HD drive installed on ebay, that all are 880k. Can it be added? Yes. Even the A500/2000's can have a HD drive added (with OS 2.x + of course)
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The absolute BEST Amiga copmuter is the one you are sitting in front of!
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True true.
I actually like them ALL! I own all of them except the CDTV and A4000T. They are all great.
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TjLaZer wrote:
The 3000 also had HD 1.76mb drives. I have high density drives in all my 3000's.
They did not come standard though. I have yet to see a A3000 with a HD drive installed on ebay, that all are 880k. Can it be added? Yes. Even the A500/2000's can have a HD drive added (with OS 2.x + of course)
Yes they can be added, but the 3000 was offered standard with the HD drive. I am not choosing sides here, I own all amiga models and like them all. I just state the truth. :-) There is nothing other than aga and ide as opposed to SCSI on the 3000 that is different hardware wise. OH, except for the built in scandoubler/flicker fixer of the 3000. :-o
I like this Thread! :-D
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Oh, I did not notice TjLaZer Wrote he did not see one 3000 on Ebay with 1.76 drive. I must be mistaken. :roflmao:
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TjLaZer wrote:
The 3000 also had HD 1.76mb drives. I have high density drives in all my 3000's.
They did not come standard though. I have yet to see a A3000 with a HD drive installed on ebay, that all are 880k. Can it be added? Yes. Even the A500/2000's can have a HD drive added (with OS 2.x + of course)
The reason you don't see any installed in an A3000 on eBay is because the 1.76mb Floppy is such a highly sought item on its own it is always removed and kept, or sold separately. I have seen them go for insane prices on eBay (for more money than an A500 or A1000 that is complete sometimes). Specially the ones with the A3000 style button.
I have two or three HD floppy drives for my A3000s, but one is a little flaky at times and none of them are going to be sold (they are mine and you can't have them :-D ).
I would wager that the A3000 is probably the favorite Amiga in the USA and the A1200 is the favorite in the UK and other EU countries for these reasons:
The Amiga started dying out in the USA sooner than in Europe (except in video studios), Amiga UK was still profitable when Commodore went bust. The A4000 and A1200 were too little too late in the minds of many USA users (probably most users worldwide), and most Amiga software at the time the USA Amiga popularity started to decline was ECS, not AGA. I would assume that the number of A1200s sold in the USA pre Commodore bankruptcy is a small fraction of how many were sold in Europe. I also believe that the majority of Amiga AGA software (specially games) that exist are PAL only and therefore are not as desirable in the USA. All of these reasons are just my perception and I don't claim that they are based on any facts.
Like many others have written, all Amiga computers are great and the best Amiga is the one in your own home.
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I think Amigadave hit the nail on the head! :smack:
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HammerD wrote:
@Acill
Why do you think the A4000-CR is worse than the normal Revision B A4000?
The CR model adds:
-Lithium coin-type battery (no leakage)
-header for external battery
-on some models, on-board 030 and socket for FPU
(C= shipped an A4000/LC040 that had A3640 and no 030 onboard - I know I have one :)
-on board chip ram (you can argue this either way, good or bad)
-Revision 11 buster standard
So I would say the A4000-CR is actually a better board than a normal A4000 Rev. B.
Why? because everything is soldered into place, it makes it near impossible to replace anything if it goes wrong, and in most cases I have seen people end up getting a new motherboard in the end.
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amigadave wrote:
Like many others have written, all Amiga computers are great and the best Amiga is the one in your own home.
Which of the four? :-D
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The reason you don't see any installed in an A3000 on eBay is because the 1.76mb Floppy is such a highly sought item on its own it is always removed and kept, or sold separately. I have seen them go for insane prices on eBay (for more money than an A500 or A1000 that is complete sometimes). Specially the ones with the A3000 style button.
Yeah I realize that but AFAIK the A3000 did not come standard with a 1.76MB Floppy drive. (Not all came with it like the A4000) It was an extra dealer add on or upgrade from C=. Is that not correct? I think what this thread is about, is which Amiga was the best from C=. Not which Amiga, once upgraded and hacked, is the best. They can all be frankensteined to be great machines, but that is not the point. I really do like the A3000 series. I have a A3000D and A3000T. Both are great. But from my observations here are the major weak points:
1. Memory--hard to find and replace Zip RAM. What a PITA.
2. Kickstart--hard to upgrade, the hardest of any Amiga. (Other than the 1000) (ROM tower, wrong silk screening on MB, Regular vs ROM tower ROMs, etc)
3. Buggy chipset. (Buster 7, DMAC, Ramsey, etc)
4. Crammed case (Heat issues, lack of space, some zorro cards did not fit right and needed to be hacked)
5. Flakey Chinnon floppy drives (seems all the micro switches go bad, hard to replace mech)
6. Lack of room for most CPU cards, the drive bay had to be hacked
7. No IDE (yes that's right LOL)
Other than that it is a great machine!! :lol:
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@anybody
THe BEST Amiga to own IF you want to upgrade to the max........is the A4000 PERIOD! it is THEE Amiga to own and next inline is the A1200.
Most Complete Multimedia: CD32 with SX32 Pro
Most compatible: A1200 w/ 68030 50mhz.
Most Hackable: A500.
The coolest: A600
The Ugliest: A2000
Most Powerful: A4000
Most Stupidest: A1500
Originalest: A1000
Most able to save Commodore if done right: CDTV
@TjLaZer
I have TONS of what I believe to be ZIP ram chips lying around...........I have alot! if anyone wants them for their A3000...........they are FREE!
I am not 100% sure they are ZIPS...........but I do know they fit into the GVP A500 harddrves.........Dont know if they are compatible or if they work. I got them fro ancient PC computers.
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@leirbag
YOU'VE GOT ZIPS???? I've been looking for them for years, but not willing to pay 30€+. The A3k needs (51)4400 or (slightly better) 514402.
@TjLaZer
I was selling Amigas until C='s demise (and a bit after) - all but the very first A3ks had HD drives - at least the 25 MHz models, never sold a 16 MHz. The only option you had was a 50 MB or a 105 MB Quantum - at least here in Germany.
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
amigadave wrote:
Like many others have written, all Amiga computers are great and the best Amiga is the one in your own home.
Which of the four? :-D
I Agree :-D
Why are we collecting? :-?
BIG question :-P
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leirbag28 wrote:
THe BEST Amiga to own IF you want to upgrade to the max........is the A4000 PERIOD! it is THEE Amiga to own and next inline is the A1200.
Most Complete Multimedia: CD32 with SX32 Pro
Most compatible: A1200 w/ 68030 50mhz.
Most Hackable: A500.
The coolest: A600
The Ugliest: A2000
Most Powerful: A4000
Most Stupidest: A1500
Originalest: A1000
Most able to save Commodore if done right: CDTV
I own an Ugliest and a Stupidest :bigcry:
I notice that the A3000 isn't even in your list. If you had to add it and give it a label, what would it be?
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TjLaZer wrote:
Yeah I realize that but AFAIK the A3000 did not come standard with a 1.76MB Floppy drive.
Mine did. Bought it that way brand new from Creative Computers here in Redondo Beach. Standard 030/25MHz, 2MB RAM, 50MB Quantum, etc.
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leirbag28 wrote:
I have TONS of what I believe to be ZIP ram chips lying around...........I have alot! if anyone wants them for their A3000...........they are FREE!
If they truly are ZIP chips that work in an A3000, I'll take 2 full sets to fill my A3000s!
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How to discuss something like this ?!? The A4000 is clearly the better one, AGA is needed for all new demos and all the good old games...
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krize wrote:
How to discuss something like this ?!? The A4000 is clearly the better one, AGA is needed for all new demos and all the good old games...
AGA needed for all the good old games? So you mean there are no good OCS/ECS games (or demos)? What bs... :roll:
Personally, all my favourite games and demos run perfectly on a 1MB A500.
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Demos, if you want to watch demos go to Youtube.com. :lol:
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It is indeed regarded by many as the best model. It does however lack the AGA chipset due to it being older than the a1200 and the a4000. It all depends on what you are going to use it for..
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Yes, but that's the only thing it is missing.
I thought it also lacked SCSI and instead had a slower IDE controller?
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@A4000_Mad
THe A3000 I would say is the Most PC looking Amiga............it looks nothing like anything that would have came from Commodore.............looks like a PC Junior or some X86 clone. Also I think the Software Kickstart was a bad idea. The one thing they did right was ad both RGB and VGA output simultaneously.........this means you can have a Genlock connected while viewing everything on a VGA monitor.
I also dont like the memory type...........THey should have been 72pin SIMMS
Bythe way.........can someone please post a picture here of what ZIP chips look like? Cuz what I got are not actual chips...........they are memory modules that look like Mini SIMMS...............the same kind that goes into the A500 GVP Harddrive cards.
I have seen Zorro Cards that take these types of SIMMS
or DIPS or whatever they are called
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ZIPs look like this:
(http://i23.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/c7/31/44aa_2.JPG)
(sorry for the shameless relink (http://cgi.ebay.de/4-MB-Zip-Ram-60-ns-fuer-z-B-Amiga-3000-Oktagon-usw_W0QQitemZ120188672708QQihZ002QQcategoryZ8142QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem))
The chip package stands on edge and the pins are aligned in a zig-zag fashion.
I think you mean SIPs - they're like 30 pin SIMMs, but with legs.
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@Zac67
Yikes! Thanks for the pic! But what the heck possesed Commodore to come up with such trash for Memory??
I definitely dont have that...........what I got must be SIPS?
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At the time the ZIP was the fastest RAM you could get, It was awesome for its time, but was not cheap! Think of it as the RIMM of its time. In the end cheap was the way to go.
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Around '89 when the A3k was developed, the ZIP packaging promised the highest packing density and thus the smallest board footprint - 30 pin was obsolete and PS/2 wasn't affordable yet. The industry just went another direction.
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
amigadave wrote:
Like many others have written, all Amiga computers are great and the best Amiga is the one in your own home.
Which of the four? :-D
Which of the six?:-D
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leirbag28 wrote:
@A4000_Mad
THe A3000 I would say is the Most PC looking Amiga............it looks nothing like anything that would have came from Commodore.............looks like a PC Junior or some X86 clone. Also I think the Software Kickstart was a bad idea. The one thing they did right was ad both RGB and VGA output simultaneously.........this means you can have a Genlock connected while viewing everything on a VGA monitor.
I also dont like the memory type...........THey should have been 72pin SIMMS
Thanks for that :pint:
Anyone wanna do a swap with my Ugliest or Stupidest for a Most PC looking? :lol:
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McVenco wrote:
krize wrote:
How to discuss something like this ?!? The A4000 is clearly the better one, AGA is needed for all new demos and all the good old games...
AGA needed for all the good old games? So you mean there are no good OCS/ECS games (or demos)? What bs... :roll:
Personally, all my favourite games and demos run perfectly on a 1MB A500.
I agree again :-D
The best solution is to have several Amiga's :lol:
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@A4000_Mad
hehehe, funny..........That said......all Amigas are awesome, just not all are pretty.......the A500 when i look at it now looks like a hideous beast next to my tiny pretty A600 hehe. The A500 was unforgivably huge........it led me to not want the A1200........i wish i would have got an A1200 from the get go instead of an A600, but oh well.
I see in your pic you have an A4000D?
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It sure is! This was my first A4000 and now has a CS MK-I 060/50, Picasso II, IDE Zip drive and and that grey device is an external SCSI Iomega 2GB Jaz drive :-)
leirbag28 wrote:
THe BEST Amiga to own IF you want to upgrade to the max........is the A4000 PERIOD! it is THEE Amiga to own
I like what you said about the A4000 as well thanks mate :pint: